Jahnava Nitai Das

Ramana's english at the age of 16 was very limited. But after much interaction with westerners for decades, he was able to read and speak english, though it obviously wasnt his mother tongue. The fact that Ramanashrama has published the account of this statement being made in several books is enough evidence that it indeed occurred. The argument that Ramana never spoke english, and therefore couldn't have made this statement was wrong.

But this isn't a translation. Ramana directly spoke this in English, and it is confirmed in several books published by Ramanashrama.

You aren't comprehending this discussion at all. No where did anyone claim Ramana wanted others to worship him as God.

Your knowledge of Ramana is wrong. Ramana could read and speak english, and did so on many occassions. From the Ramanashrama journal on Ramana's English knowledge: Karthik wrote: You have mis-read my statement in the previous thread. There I said you had the misconception that Prabhupada was refering to a personal form such as Krishna when the mayavadi's said "I am God". Prabhupada was never thinking mayavadis claim to be a blue skinned personal divinity.

As mentioned in the last thread, the source for the quote of Ramana is the following book publishbed by the Ramanashrama in Thiruvanamalai: "SRI RAMANA REMINISCENCES, BY G. V. SUBBARAMAYYA. Published by the Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai, South India, 1979" According to this book, Ramana spoke in English, citing a single verse from the Bible, to a Dutchman who was visiting. Then he said, "It says know you are God, not think you are God." However you interpret Ramana's statement, the fact is he said it. That is all that matters, as it proves Srila Prabhupada's statement as accurate. Mayavadi's do state "I am God, You are God". You want to give a two page purport to Ramana's statement, and then you expect Prabhupada should have also given a two page purport to his passing comment that "Mayavadis claim 'I am God'."

You seem to think the Kanchi matha is the bonadfide representative of Shankara's teachings. Factually Shankara's advaita is more prominent (and properly preserved) in Benares and Rishikesh than anywhere else in India. The Kanchi Matha is a fabrication, and was never directly connected to Shankara anyway. They have fabricated evidence to claim that their Matha is 2,500 years old. Of course you know all this, and it is off topic in this thread, so I won't get into that. Again you think advaita is the composition of Shankara. Shankara was a follower of Advaita, not the founder.

[The other thread was going into a different topic, so I thought I would bring this over to it's own thread.] According to Shvu, Prabhupada was wrong for saying that Mayavadis claim "I am God". In response I provided quotes from dozens of prominent mayavadis who all directly taught, "I am God, you are God." Shvu's first stance was that the quotes provided did not contain anyone saying "I am God": Later he back tracked on this position and said that they may have said "I am God", but that they weren't mayavadis. Lets have a look at these quotes and who are the people making them to see if they are mayavadis. Here is the list of names, a virtual who's who of prominent mayavadis. All of them declare themselves as followers of Shankara's advaita-vada: Swami Omkarananda Saraswati, Swami Rama Tirtha, Swami Shivananda, Swami Chinmayananda, Amritanandamayi, Swami Muktananda, Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Ramana Maharshi, Satguru Sivaya Subrahmanya, Sai Baba, Subramanya Bharati, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sri Chinmoy, Shri Shri Ananda Murti, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Swami Vishnudevananda. Now some of these people are stalwarts among the advaitins, who no one would deny follow Shankara. Take for example Swami Shivananda-ji of Rishikesh. He is one of the most prominent advaitins of the last 100 years, who in his time was unanimously regarded as the leader among the Sadhus in Rishikesh. All of the people cited here claim to be followers of Shankara's advaita-vada. It is Shvu's contention that these people don't have a clue about Shankara's teachings. In reality, their interpretation of Shankara's teachings just differ from that of Shvu. On what grounds does Shvu's interpretation of Shankara's teaching become correct and the interpretation of all these saints and sadhus becomes wrong? Shvu understands advaita better than Swami Shivananda-ji, who spent his life in Rishikesh studying the original works of Shankara, even translating many into other languages? Sure, believe whatever you want. The fact is Mayavada has many interpretations and variations. Shvu wants to claim only his interpretation is valid, and all others, such as Swami Shivanada-ji, don't have a clue as to what Shankara taught. In his own words, their knowledge of advaita can be written on the head of a pin. Who to believe? On one side we have a list of virtually every prominent mayavadi of recent times stating the same thing, "I am God, you are God", on the other side we have Shvu who says (based on his own interpretation of Shankara's teachings) that no mayavadi will say "I am God". Who is correct? The list of prominent saints and sadhus? Or Shvu? That's for you to decide. Shvu stated his position as follows: Thus according to Shvu we must conclude these prominent mayavadis did not actually understand advaita, at least not as well as Shvu. Swami Shivananda-ji, who spent his life studying the original works of Shankara and writing translations of them didn't understand advaita as well as Shvu. Shvu again states his view of these people who say advaita teaches, "I am God": According to Shvu, Swami Shivananda-ji's knowledge of advaita can safely be written on the head of a pin. Maybe, just maybe Shvu's interpretation of advaita isn't the only valid interpretation of advaita existing. Maybe they just have a different understanding of Shankara's advaita. Nope, not according to Shvu, there knowledge of advaita can safely be written on the head of a pin. In contrast Shvu's knowledge of advaita could be safely written into a book, or at least a bunch of forum messages. The following is a small list of prominent mayavadi's who have taught, "I am God": Swami Shivananda: If you are humble, you are divine, you are God. Swami Rama Tirtha: "I am God, as you are". Swami Omkarananda Saraswati: "Where there us no mind, finished - the man becomes God Himself, he becomes one with the Divine, and like the sages of the Upanishads, he says: "I am God."" Swami Omkarananda Saraswati: "Man without mind is God." Muktananda: He experiences the true bliss of Consciousness. He knows without any doubt, `I am God, and God is me.' Such a yogi lives in constant awareness of the Self, in the state of perfect fearlessness and freedom. This is liberation. Sai Baba on advaita: Always think like that. “I am God. I am God. I am atma. I am everything.” Satguru Sivaya Subrahmanya (Hinduism Today): Again and again in the Vedas and from satgurus we hear "Aham Brahmasmi,I am God," Ramana Maharshi: Be still and know that I am God. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa: One should not say, 'I am God,' until one has transcended body-consciousness. Swami Vivekananda: If you are a monist, you know that you are God Maharishi Mahesh Yogi: Be still and know that you are God. When you know that you are God, you will begin to live Godhood. Swami Muktananda: If you understand your own true nature you will know that you are God. Amritanandamayi (Ammachi): It was always my hope to say to a student "You are God," and recognizing the truth of that, she or he became That I Am, God. Swami Chinmayananda: Pure existence beyond Time, Space and Causality - where the experience is "I am God". This knowledge is the last and final stage in the evolution of man. Muktananda: "Your God dwells within you as you.". Satya Sai Baba: "I am God and you are God, except you don't know it". Satya Sai Baba: "I am not man at all. I am God." Have firm faith in that Truth. When you are God, keep Divine feelings within you. Ramana Maharshi: ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not ‘Think I am God’. Subramanya Bharati: "Deivam Nee Enrunar.'' (Realise that you are God.) Swami Dayananda Saraswati: Self-realization, as I said, is the discovery that "the Self is the whole"that you are the Lord; in fact, you are God, the cause of everything. Satya Sai Baba: Recite daily, "I am God. I am God. I am no different from God. I am the supreme reality." Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj: You yourself are God, the Supreme Reality. Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj:You are God, but you do not know it. Sri Chinmoy: You need God. You have God. You are God. You want God and you need God. Shri Shri Ananda Murti: “Be constantly in the thought of God and you too will become God” Sri Sri Ravi Shankar: I am God, so are You! There is nothing that exists beyond and other than God. God in Hindi is Bhagwan. Swami Vishnudevananda: "The aim of all yoga practice is to achieve truth wherein the individual soul identifies itself with the supreme soul of God.” What is clear is that all of these people are monists who claim to follower Shankara's advaita-vada. What is also clear is that each of them have stated, "I am God, you are God." How they choose to interpret this statement is irrelevant for this discussion. Every philosopher will define God in their own unique way. Again, we can conclude that Prabhupada is precisely acurate when he says that mayavadis declare "I am God": Prabhupada: These Mayavadi philosophers, they are declaring that "I am God." Shvu criticized Prabhupada for making this statement, but when it was shown that the statement was accurate, he did the usual: he changed his stance (via the Shvu slide).

Actually the factual error is in your statement. Namo Narayana is in the vocative, it is addressing someone as Narayana, and is the custom of all Sadhus in Rishikesh and Badrinatha. The mantra Ramanuja gave is "Om namo narayanaya", "I offer obeisances to Narayana." They are completely different statements.

Here are some more prominent advaitins saying "I am God". Swami Rama Tirtha: "I am God, as you are". Swami Omkarananda Saraswati: "Where there us no mind, finished - the man becomes God Himself, he becomes one with the Divine, and like the sages of the Upanishads, he says: "I am God."" Swami Omkarananda Saraswati: "Man without mind is God." Muktananda: He experiences the true bliss of Consciousness. He knows without any doubt, `I am God, and God is me.' Such a yogi lives in constant awareness of the Self, in the state of perfect fearlessness and freedom. This is liberation. Muktananda: "Your God dwells within you as you.". Satya Sai Baba: "I am God and you are God, except you don't know it". Satya Sai Baba: "I am not man at all. I am God." Have firm faith in that Truth. When you are God, keep Divine feelings within you. Ramana Maharshi: ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not ‘Think I am God’. Subramanya Bharati: "Deivam Nee Enrunar.'' (Realise that you are God.) Swami Dayananda Saraswati: Self-realization, as I said, is the discovery that "the Self is the whole"that you are the Lord; in fact, you are God, the cause of everything. Satya Sai Baba: Recite daily, "I am God. I am God. I am no different from God. I am the supreme reality." Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj: You yourself are God, the Supreme Reality. Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj:You are God, but you do not know it. Sri Chinmoy: You need God. You have God. You are God. You want God and you need God. Shri Shri Ananda Murti: “Be constantly in the thought of God and you too will become God” Sri Sri Ravi Shankar: I am God, so are You! There is nothing that exists beyond and other than God. God in Hindi is Bhagwan. Swami Vishnudevananda: "The aim of all yoga practice is to achieve truth wherein the individual soul identifies itself with the supreme soul of God.” Again, we can conclude that Prabhupada is precisely acurate when he says that mayavadis declare "I am God."

Sai Baba on advaita: Always think like that. “I am God. I am God. I am atma. I am everything.” Satguru Sivaya Subrahmanya (Hinduism Today): Again and again in the Vedas and from satgurus we hear "Aham Brahmasmi," "I am God." Ramana Maharshi: Be still and know that I am God. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa: One should not say, 'I am God,' until one has transcended body-consciousness. Swami Vivekananda: If you are a monist, you know that you are God. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi: Be still and know that you are God. When you know that you are God, you will begin to live Godhood. Swami Muktananda: If you understand your own true nature you will know that you are God. Amritanandamayi (Ammachi): It was always my hope to say to a student "You are God," and recognizing the truth of that, she or he became That I Am, God. Swami Chinmayananda: Pure existence beyond Time, Space and Causality - where the experience is "I am God". This knowledge is the last and final stage in the evolution of man. Swami Shivananda: If you are humble, you are divine, you are God. I can't figure out your point in saying none of these advaitins say "I am God." They all do. It is plain english. Come to grips with the fact that all of these prominent advaitins have stated this. You can try to interpret their statements in some other way, but the fact is they have said this. Perhaps we are speaking different languages.

<center> Subjective Evolution of Consciousness - by Sri Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj </center> "This world is sometimes pushing forth and sometimes withdrawing. In the same way that a heart expands and contracts again and again, the whole universe expands and contracts. Regrouping within the one, and again manifest as the many - the one and the many - the evolution and dissolution of the material universe takes place. As a heart expands and contracts, the whole universe is manifest and withdrawn." For complete article please visit this link: http://www.indiadivine.com/subjective-evolution-sridhar-maharaj.htm

So in other words Jagat's article is based on rumors.

What is so funny is how common rumors somehow are held as historical facts by those against Bhaktisiddhanta and the Gaudiya Matha. Apparently, on one unspecified occassion, this person claimed he was assaulted by unspecified individuals. This probably occured when he entered the Mayapur compound, but he never said that, so we will just add that to the rumor to make it fit together. If someone from the Gaudiya Matha said Gopal Babu was assaulted by caste Goswami's while he was in Vrindavan, on an unspecified occassion, by an unspecified group, at an unspecified time, and that he was beaten up, had his shikha and mala cut, and was thrown into the Yamuna, you would take it as a made up story. Even if he had witnesses from other Gaudiya Matha people, and exact dates and times, you would say its just a lie started because they did not like the caste Goswamis. But when ever there is an unsubstantiated rumor against Bhaktisiddhanta, the Gaudiya Matha, or anyone in their path, it is a "historical occurrence". You are about as objective as Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in his analysis of TM.

I would suggest anyone interested in knowing what Prabhupada taught to approach a follower of Prabhupada and inquire from them. I would not advise learning such things from someone who is a "neutral observer", who has not imbibed the teachings and message of Prabhupada. Otherwise you may end up with misconceptions about Prabhupada's teachings, as we have seen often in these forum. (Prabhupada supported slavery, Prabhupada taught that impersonalists think they are a personal blue-skinned God named Krishna, etc.)

I guess they didn't have enough money to buy off the judge, or they lacked the influential contacts they needed. The entire Navadvipa area was more or less religiously controlled by family gurus, and the Mayapur party would not have been very welcome amongst them.

Yup, looks like you are intentionally trying to mislead people regarding Prabhupada's position. I would only suggest others actually read the writings and teachings of Prabhupada to find out what his position on advaita is rather then rely on a few quotes from Raga. If you believe Prabhupada thought advaitins believed they were a personal God equal to Krishna, or that they were physically the blue skinned Krishna (or the green skinned Rama), then perhaps you should do some more reading.

A local court in Navadvip? Now thats a valid authority. I can buy off our village's court for very little. Navadvipa is and was no different, especially where powerful families have sway in the villages.

As someone who previously was a follower of Prabhupada, you certainly know that Prabhupada did not mean the Mayavadi's literally claim to be a blue skinned God. I can only see your misrepresentation of His position as open dishonesty on your part. You seem to have some built up dislike for him and are looking for somewhere to vent your anger. Either you are purposely being dishonest, or you were really dull when you studied Prabhupada's teachings in ISKCON.

<img src=http://www.isvara.it/img/copertina/somakaprabhu3.jpg> Somaka Swami Maharaja with Srila Prabhupada in 1972 (holding car door) <IMG SRC=http://www.isvara.it/img/copertina/Somakaprabhu.jpg>

[From another forum.] Somaka Swami Maharaja Leaves Body Dear devotees, With a saddened heart, we announce the passing away of Somaka Maharaja. He was affected by an incurable disease, and in the evening of the 18th of this month, his body ceased to function. He was Italian born and was initiated by Srila Prabhupada in 1972. He faithfully served in ISKCON almost his entire life. He was a sannyasi and an initiating guru. He relinquished his position a few years ago and retired. He was loved and respected by everyone. The Italian devotees especially mourn the great soul who gave them so much. Writings about him are published on the Italian web site www.isvara.it . Hare Krishna!

There are gigantic eagles described in the Puranas that fly from planet to planet. Sometimes when they are hungry they will swoop down to earth and pick up an elephant in their claws to eat. The big bird in this story is a tiny insect compared to those birds.

You are confused as to what Srila Prabhupada "implied". You seem to think when he said "mayavadis say 'I am God'" he was refering to a saguna Brahman, such as Krishna. Please read more of what he wrote so you can understand his direct statement clearer and don't need to look for implied meanings. Brahman is the supreme source of everything, which is identified with the word God. Mayavadis do indeed say "I am God", as has been shown conclusively from the quotes provided. As a dogmatic follower of advaita, you may try to defend their statements and say they mean something else. That's your right. But honesty would require you to admit that Srila Prabhupada was right when he said, "Mayavadis say 'I am God.'" You have no consistency in your arguments. You try to interpret "I am God" spoken by advaitins in one way, and "I am God" spoken by Prabhupada in another way to avoid admitting you are wrong.

Your doing a typical Shvu on us here. First you claim no Advaitin would ever say "I am God". Then when it is shown that virtually every single advaitin says exactly that, you back peddle and try to change your original stance to something completely different. Thats pulling a typical Shvu. Just to remind us exactly how they all say "I am God." I will repost those quotes here. Otherwise someone who didn't read them may actually think you a right. Now you want us to believe that despite it being proven factually that these noted advaitins have indeed taught "I am God," you want to back track and say that they meant something other then they said, so it doesn't count. Here is a classic Shvu dialog (hypothetical): 1) Criticize someone like Prabhupada for saying something about Advaitins, like that they teach "I am God." Rant about how he doesn't known anything, because a real advaitin will never say "I am God". Then continue the ranting, saying how all the blind followers of him don't have a clue, because they accept this false statement that Advaitins teach "I am God." 2) When it is pointed out that virtually every single prominent advaitin does teach "I am God," try to pretend that your original stance was something else. And then conclude by asking, "What is the point in showing that advaitins teach 'I am God'?" I realize it is impossible to communicate with you, as you like to change your stance and the meaning of words half way into a discussion. To conclude, Prabhupada said that mayavadi's proclaim "I am God." You denied this, but it has been conclusively shown that virtually every prominent advaitin does indeed proclaim "I am God". Whether they don't understand the English language, and actually mean something different is irrelevent. Further, you said anyone who tells you that advaitins say "I am God" does not know advaita, and their knowledge of advaita can be written on the head of a pin . Thus I concluded that those advaitins cited above must all have knowledge that can fit on the head of a pin, as they all say advaita teaches "I am God."

Advaitins say: "I am brahman" "Brahman is the source of everything."

I think it is clear that Ramana, and all the other prominent advaitins cited before teach that we are all the absolute nondual Brahman, who is defined in the Upanishads as being "the source of everything, from whom everything comes, by whom everything is maintained, and into whom everything enters after annihilation." Prabhupada: These Mayavadi philosophers, they are declaring that "I am God."