Jahnava Nitai Das

This saivism I am referring to is different from the panchopasana worship of Lord Shiva as a manifestation of the divine. Real strict saivism practically doesn't exist anymore.

In ancient times there had been many persecutions of Vaishnavas by saivites who controlled the kings. In some places it was a crime to wear the urdhva-pundra (vaishnava tilak). Even Ramanuja had his life put in danger for propagating Vaishnavism. Others were killed for this "crime".

Iskcon only observes fasting on the appearance day of the four immediately previous acharyas in our line. We do not observe fasting for other acharya's in our line, nor for other great devotees. But we do observe festivities and remembrances on the appearance of all other great devotees, including Lord Shiva. If they understand that Lord Shiva is a servant of Krishna, then their worship is perfect. If they think Lord Shiva is the Supreme Lord, they will not receive the benefit of their worship (they will not please Lord Shiva, and he will not bless them with spiritual knowledge). If they worship Lord Shiva for material prosperity, he will destroy them, for if you take even a speck of dust from Lord Shiva, your material life will ultimately be ruined. This is his special benediction to bring them to knowledge.

</p> The temporary temple building to be used during construction of larger temple. </p>Devotees attending satsanga at the new temple </p> Sri C. Ponnaiyan, Minister for Finance, Government of Tamil Nadu, offering respects to Srila Prabhupada </p> Sri C. Ponnaiyan, Minister for Finance, Government of Tamil Nadu, attending the arati and kirtan at temple. ISKCON moves to own land in Injambakkam ISKCON Chennai shifted from its rented premises in T.Nagar to its own 6.5 acre land in Injambakkam, Off East Coast Road, a kilometer from VGP Golden Beach, on the 29th September 2002 in the morning hours. More than five hundred devotees assembled at T.Nagar to participate in the last worship to be conducted there for the deities of ISKCON - Their Lordships Sri Sri Krishna Rukmini Satyabhama, Sri Sri Jagannath Baladev Subhadra, Sri Sri Gour Nitai and Sri Sri Lakshmi Nrsimhadev. At 8 am, Sri C. Ponnaiyan, Minister for Finance, Government of Tamil Nadu, visited the temple and spoke a few words complimenting ISKCON for propagating spiritual culture and positive vibrations that can destroy the negative emotions in people such as greed and jealousy. His remark, "My family deity is Lord Krishna and the family deity of Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Dr. Selvi J. Jayalalithaa is also Lord Krishna" met with a loud applause from the assembled devotees. Sri Ponnaiyan went on to say, "On behalf of the government of Tamil Nadu, I assure that we will give all support for the construction of a gorgeous temple for Lord Krishna in Chennai". The temple authorities thanked Sri Ponnaiyan for visiting the center and for his promise of support and presented him with a big laminated picture of Lord Krishna, a garland that had been offered to Lord Krishna and Krishna prasadam. Sri Ponnaiyan waited as the deities were placed in cars that were decorated with flowers and garlands and then got into his own car leaving information that he would visit Injambakkam later the same day. As the vehicles holding the deities of Lord Krishna moved, over fifty cars, vans and bikes preceded and followed them making a grand royal pageant. The traffic police at Venkatnarayana Road signal gave special permission for the vehicles to take a direct right turn which is normally not allowed. The pageant arrived at about 9 am at the ISKCON Road in Injambakkam, Off East Coast Road, which is about a kilometer from VGP Golden Beach. A white board with clear writing said - 'ISKCON - Hare Krishna Land' with an arrow pointing into the road. As the deities continued in Their vehicles slowly, the devotees walked on singing Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare congregationally. At the Hare Krishna Land, a 5000 sq. feet one storey building stood neatly painted in rose colour. Built strictly according to vastu, the kitchen, offices and ashram have their places in the ground floor. On the first floor is a long hall for devotees to congregate. On one end on a pure marble floor stands three altars with the deities. On the other far end, on a grand mandapam made of teak wood sits a life-like and life-size murti of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder of ISKCON. Sri C. Ponnaiyan, Minister of State for Finance, Government of Tamil Nadu joined the devotees again and waited till the deities gave darshan after the bhoga offering. He watched the arati that was offered to Them by ISKCON Chennai president His Holiness Bhanu Swami and accepted the blessings and prasadam of Lord Krishna before leaving. Sri C. Ponnaiyan was very much impressed and inspired by the grandeur of the deities and the devotion in the kirtan of the devotees and volunteered to help the movement in all possible ways. His Holiness Bhanu Swami gave a Srimad Bhagavatam discourse explaining how life is full of insecurities from the very beginning of life in the mother's womb and how therefore it was important to follow the eternal path of Krishna bhakti. Full lunch prasadam was served to over one thousand devotees who were present at Hare Krishna land in Injambakkam. Now, almost a month since we moved in, we are happy to note that many people are driving in to see the temple. Several of them are voluntarily giving donations. All this is due to the glory of Srila Prabhupada and his dedicated followers. We are all happy to be a part of his eternal plans for preaching Krishna consciousness. Hare Krishna. Our new phone numbers at Injambakkam - 501 9147 / 501 9303. Mobile:98400-85099. Address: ISKCON, Bhaktivedanta Swami Road (Off East Coast Road, Opposite Coastal Kitchen), Hare Krishna Land, Injambakkam, Chennai-41. E-mail: iskconchennai@eth.net Website: www.iskcon.net/chennai Your servant, Sumithra Krishna das.

As far as I have seen Shankara does not answer the question as to the ultimate origin of duality. If you know of a particular verse's commentary that does this, please post the reference.

If anyone can find those past answers, please copy them and paste them here. I am having trouble locating one that deals with this particular question.

So Brahman can perceive variety without being under avidya? Yet perception of duality is caused by avidya. Duality is false and illusory. It is perceived due to ignorance, for it does not actually exist. Krishna (the sad-guna) Brahman, perceives this false duality and interacts with this false duality (which is done through ignorance), but due to "magic" He isn't in ignorance. I justed wanted to confirm that advaita resolves inconsistencies by employing use of "magic" to explain anything contradictory.

Shankara's commentary states that "I subordinate the three fold maya", and that "by my maya it appears that I become embodied though in reality I do not."

Simply your saying wrong does not make the statement false. Krishna interacts within the world of multiplicity. Thus He is perceiving variety. Perception of variety is due to avidya. Thus the avatara is influenced by avidya. The fact that Krishna interacted within the world, seeing, speaking, replying, etc., cannot be disputed. It is impossible for Him to have interacted with this variety without having perceived it.

Let us bring up and discuss the topic of bondage within advaita. If there is nothing other than the one nondual indivisible Brahman. Where is the question of jivas and illusion (bondage)? What is the root cause of bondage? Who perceives it? How did this perception come about? Why would the completely nondual Brahman who is full of bliss and lacking nothing put itself within bondage (i.e. allow perception of avidya) in the form of jiva?

1) Brahman is absolutely nondual. 2) Brahman incarnates. 3) Actually Brahman doesn't incarnate, only the illusioned jivas perceive it to incarnate. 4) Perception of variety is due to avidya. 5) The incarnation perceives and interacts with the multiplicity (variety) and thus is also influenced by avidya. 6) That illusioned incarnation teaches us how to be free from the duality he himself is in.

Shvu, Previously you had stated the universal Brahman is acting in the body of the jivan-mukta. Now the stance is that actually it is only the jiva who perceives the Brahman acting in the body of the jivan-mukta, but the Brahman in reality is not acting. In other words, we are just imagining incarnations, liberated souls, etc. They are just products of avidya, their teachings are products of avidya, and their actions are products of avidya. The Gita on the other hand says Krishna's janma and karma are divyam. Again the consistency in advaita is slowly disipating like the fog in the morning.

From my previous post: If one says an incarnation is only the perception of a conditioned Jiva, and He also doesn't actually exist, then it is just a big joke. The conditioned perception of the jiva is imagining an incarnation (to deliver spiritual knowledge to man). In reality it is all then just a product of our self-created illusion, and therefore the teachings of the avatara are also illusion. Again it becomes like a thousand monkeys at a typewriter trying ot write a novel.

Got you... I didn't say "Swami says".

Swami is describing Rishikesh, where the mayavadi sannyasis address each other as Narayana, "namo narayana", but every day at noon they are waiting in queue to receive the free hand outs of food at the dharamshalas. To understand this requires understanding the culture there.

But that Brahman being discussed here is the Purusha prior to universal creation (the unmanifested state of material existence). That is already a level of duality or multiplicity. Loneliness implies personality. To be lonely is like to be angry, happy, silly etc. So Brahman must have diversity in personality in order to be lonely. The word lonely separated from other characteristics is meaningless. It is understood not in isolation but only in conjunction with other aspects of personality. Another thing to consider is if Brahman feels lonely and so incarnates, then why on earth would we want to attain self-realization since that will just be a place of loneliness. It is better that we avoid that place of loneliness and stay in this world. It makes the whole point of attaining brahman useless. Its not full of bliss, but rather full of loneliness. Brahman has been described in the Upanishads and Vedanta Sutra as full of bliss. Thus we cannot accept that the Brahman feels lonely and is lacking, and therefore incarnates to fill that void. If such a case were true, then we have already attained our perfection, as the state of nondual Brahman was lacking, and material variety was his "liberation" from it. We would be in the more progressive and complete stage of existence. The question as to why the Brahman incarnates remains unanswered. It cannot be for compassion for the conditioned jivas, as they do not exist to Him. It is like you feeling compassion for a character in a film, that you never saw and that was never written, and that was never broadcasted on TV, and actually didn't exist. It makes no sense at all. To the supremely nondual Brahman, they is no question of avidya or perception of variety. There are no deluded souls to deliver, nor is there a world to incarnate into, nor is there a personality to incarnate. If one says an incarnation is only the perception of a conditioned Jiva, and He also doesn't actually exist, then it is just a big joke. The conditioned perception of the jiva is imagining an incarnation (to deliver spiritual knowledge to man). In reality it is all then just a product of our self-created illusion, and therefore the teachings of the avatara are also illusion. Again it becomes like a thousand monkeys at a typewriter trying ot write a novel. I will repost my original questions, as I would like to get an answer from advaitins before I continue: "Why would the nondual Brahman, that is beyond ignorance and does not perceive duality, descend to the platform of duality (ignorance) in the form of Avatara, to preach to the illusory aspects of his own identity in a nonexistent world." "If he comes to help the conditioned atmas, that is just ignorance, for in reality those jivas don't exist, nor are they bound, as per Brahman's cognition in pure brahman realization according to advaita."

Why would the nondual Brahman, that is beyond ignorance and does not perceive duality, descend to the platform of duality (ignorance) in the form of Avatara, to preach to the illusory aspects of his own identity in a nonexistent world. If he comes to help the conditioned atmas, that is just ignorance, for in reality those jivas don't exist, nor are they bound, as per Brahman's cognition in pure brahman realization according to advaita.

Duty is ultimately to develop attachment for the Lord's instructions, otherwise it is a pointless endeavour: dharmah svanusthitah pumsam vishvaksena-kathasu yah notpadayed yadi ratim shrama eva hi kevalam "The occupational activities a man performs according to his own position are only so much useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Personality of Godhead." The Bhagavatam tells us that those who engage in devotion to Sri Hari are freed from all mundane duties and obligations: devarshi-bhutapta-nrinam pitrinam na kinkaro nayam rini ca rajan sarvatmana yah sharanam sharanyam gato mukundam parihritya kartam "Anyone who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of Mukunda, the giver of liberation, giving up all kinds of obligation, and has taken to the path in all seriousness, owes neither duties nor obligations to the demigods, sages, general living entities, family members, humankind or forefathers." (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.41) The great saint Sri Madhavendra Puri has also stated the same thing: sandhya-vandana bhadram astu bhavato bhoh snana tubhyam namo bho devah pitarash ca tarpana-vidhau naham kshamah kshamyatam yatra kvapi nisadya yadava-kulottamasya kamsa-dvishah smaram smaram agham harami tad alam manye kim anyena me "O my evening prayer, all good unto you. O my morning bath, I bid you good-bye. O demigods and forefathers, please excuse me. I am unable to perform any more offerings for your pleasure. Now I have decided to free myself from all reactions to sins simply by remembering anywhere and everywhere the great descendant of Yadu and the great enemy of Kamsa [Lord Krishna]. I think that this is sufficient for me. So what is the use of further endeavors?" mugdham mam nigadantu niti-nipuna bhrantam muhur vaidikah mandam bandhava-sancaya jada-dhiyam muktadarah sodarah unmattam dhanino viveka-caturah kamam maha-dambhikam moktum na kshamate manag api mano govinda-pada-spriham "Let the sharp moralist accuse me of being illusioned; I do not mind. Experts in Vedic activities may slander me as being misled, friends and relatives may call me frustrated, my brothers may call me a fool, the wealthy mammonites may point me out as mad, and the learned philosophers may assert that I am much too proud; still my mind does not budge an inch from the determination to serve the lotus feet of Govinda, though I be unable to do it."

Mayavada is established by Dattatreya, the incarnation of Lord Vishnu, and great rishis such as Ashtavakra. It is an eternal philosophy, just as personalism (bhakti marga) is an eternal philosophy. Krishna says in the Gita the result of both is ultimately the same, though the monistic path is troublesome and difficult for the embodied.

Which calander do you use? Which region of India are you in? Different religious sub-cultures calculate their calendars differently. For example, for Saurashtras, Krishna Janmashtami comes a month after others observe it. Also generally smartas and vaishnavas calculate occassions one day off from each other. Thus there are different calendars for different sub-cultures.

It is possible if you consider Prabhupada a Buddha like incarnation who appeared to delude people. Prabhupada's view of Shankara (and Chaitanya's view) is that he is an incarnation of Lord Shiva who came on the Lord's order to establish a particular temporary doctrine that was necessary at the time. Thus it is logically consistent for a follower of Chaitanya to accept Shankara as a great person and respect him, but to disregard his teachings. Its the same case with Buddha. The Vaishnava acharya's accept Buddha as an avatara of Vishnu, yet they will ridicule his teachings of "anatman".

I, the conscious self is saying, "I am the nondual absolute". What is confusing about that? To understand what they mean we would have to ask one of the Swami's cited above, who all say exactly that.

Prabhupada also says the mayavadi's consider God to be impersonal and nondual. Thus when he says the mayavadis say "I am God", the definition of God is that definition he attributes to the mayavadis. This is common logic. If I am saying that the mayavadis say XYZ, why would I assume they define their words according to my philosophy. Rather they will define their words according to their own philosophy, or from the speakers perspective, words attributed to them will hold the corresponding definitions attributed to them by the same source.

Does anyone have a comment on Swami Shivananda-ji? Do you want to say that he isn't a mayavadi, or that he hasn't studied Shankara's writings enough?

I think he is refering to Prabhupada's very direct and clear statement: "These Mayavadi philosophers, they are declaring that 'I am God.'" Your skewed interpretation is evident here: This is just off topic and childish. Start another thread if you are really interested in learning about this, otherwise try to stick to the topic. This just makes it appear that you have no solid rebuttal.