Jahnava Nitai Das

Inspirational quotes from Bhaktivedanta Goswami on ahimsa: [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-29-2001).]

Thanks for the reply. I guess you are referring to the common indologists dates. The traditionla biographies of Shankara say he lived 2,000 years ago (I don't have the text right here, so I'm not quoting the exact date in relation to the Christian calander. If anyone wants it I can open up the trunks and pull it out.) It is odd that he would never even mention the existence of Islam or the invasions in any of his writings, nor of his immediate disciples, if he actually lived at the time given by the indologists. The British and German indologists had an agenda to put most of Indias history after the coming of Christ, so they adjusted all the dates with that in mind. It was another aspect of imperialism and subjugation.

I said: You replied: I think your english is not up to par, and you aren't able to understand my sentence.

Whats your logic? I cant figure your statements out. Any food can become contaminated. All food carries karmic reactions. Thats why we sanctify it by sacrifice. If a potato has become impure, then it shouldn't be eaten, and it certainly shouldn't be offered to god. This is what the Goswami Srila Prabhupada has taught. You on the other hand say it remains pure as the ganga even if it touches beef. But you can't substantiate it with a quote. And then you say its my turn to provide quotes? I'm sorry, but your turn isn't over yet, unless you choose to forfeit your turn. Then I will gladly provide you with ample evidences of my statements. Say the word. Tell me you don't have any quotes to prove your claim. Then I will be ready for my turn.

Thank you Maitreya. There are hundreds of other places where Srila Prabhupada, Satyaraja's claimed siksha guru, says the same things. He is arguing because he does not like accepting he is wrong. Don't waste too much time on it. When we start the new forum we can provide ample statements from Shastra that state animal killing is a block to spiritual life and bhakti. It is interestng to see the conversation between Mahaprabhu and Chand Kazi. His main argument is, "why are you killing cows?". He could have just spoken prema bhakti if he wanted to.

There was a suggestion for a separate forum on vegetarianism. Personally I think it would be a good idea. Anyone else think we should have a "Vegetarianism and World Religions" or something? Would it be used? Or should we just keep the discussions on it here in Spiritual Discussions?

Personally I think this thread is a waste of time. Satya makes whatever claim he wants, says its over there in those purana thingies, and thats it. Everyone should believe him. And if you tell him that he is incorrect, his answer is, "Oh, you doubt the mighty kathvanga purana?" No one is doubting the kathvanga purana. I am doubting your statements that are based on rumor, anugatya, and the such. I asked for references, none were given. I pointed out that the vegetables he lists are not even known in sanskrit texts. There is no word for tomato in sanskrit, just as there is no word for computer. Yet, with his advanced knowledge, he says its over there in the padma purana. Ok, fine with me. Believe that if you like. I don't feel like arguing just for the sake of proving you wrong, so I won't. All I wanted was this: But I am yet to see it, and I won't see it because it doesn't exist. Just as the verses about tomatos don't exist. But thats what you call as anugatya, whereas I call it as rumor. I would suggest you just ask the sadhus or gurus you follow the same questions as asked to you here and see what replies they actually give you. I know they will not be different from what I have said. This is not high philosophy with hundreds of possible interpretations. Instead of giving the references from smriti, you start speaking how vegetarianism is not the ultimate goal of bhakti. I didn't understand a thing. Maybe because I was trying to follow the topic, and I couldn't make out any connection. Anyway, as you very well know, the shastras state that bhakti that is not performed according shruti, smriti, and pancharatra agamas simply creates a disturbance in society. This is not a new concept to you, for you have read enough books on this topic. Those who fail to follow sadachara, or proper conduct for spiritual life, are just creating a disturbance in the name of bhakti. Vegetarianism is the first step towards spiritual life, for without mercy to weaker life forms, one can not truly love god. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-28-2001).]

I would take that statement figuratively. We can see very practically that when someone takes to spiritual life, it is the family who first objects.

I am familiar with smriti texts, so I invite you to cite your references. It is a bad habit to always claim "this is not my opinion, it is all in the shastras" but to never cite the source. It certainly is your opinion, and I invite you to disprove me. Please cite the smriti text that says potatos carry no karmic reactions and are eternally pure like the ganga. Of course, don't forget your prior claim that they ate deer meat as well. Regardless, the point is not wether drinking water is fasting or not fasting, or whether eating roots is fasting or not fasting. This story is completely unrelated to this topic. I am interested in a verse from smriti that says potatos are eternally pure like the ganga, and even if the touch beef are to be considered pure and without karmic influence. But the same smritis say an area of 64 miles is consider impure if go-hatya has occured... but wait, those french fries over there are still pure. Perhaps you have a different version of that text. Eggplants have not been mentioned in any of the texts I have seen this story in. It has always referred to onions. Sorry, but half of those items were introduced in India by the British and Portuguese. Perhaps your basing this on rumor, or anugatya, or whatever you call it.

This brings up another point, and that is, "What does it mean that the Ganga is always pure." Ganga devi has the ability to manifest her presence within water at will, and withdraw that manifestation at will as well. If a factory is dumping industrial waste in the ganga, it is not that that water is pure. The presence of Ganga devi is withdrawn from that area due to the offense. That water is no longer Ganga, even though it is flowing within the same river. The smriti shastras also describe how long the presence of ganga will be manifested in a pot of water without appropriate worship. It is not that you take a pot of water from ganga, and it will eternally be ganga water. If worship is continued, it will remain as ganga water, but if worship is not performed, the presence will be withdrawn after seven years (this varies based on the container). Even in the ganga itself, those rivers that join with ganga are considered holy, but those rivers which branch from ganga are not.

I disagree regarding your interpretation of different types of food and the karma they carry. All food carries impressions. Some food, such as that which is boiled in oil, carries less karmic reactions and less of the cooks mentality. Others, such as grains which are cooked, carry heavier karmic reactions and more of the cooks mentality. It has nothing to do with the purity of the ingredient, but the process involved in preparation. Potatos are just potatos. Nothing sacred about them. If they become impure (not "unclean"), they can not be used. There are a number of ways this can happen. Of course a famous way is if they are seen by a dog. The idea that potatos (or other foods) never become unclean or impure is too far right. And the idea that something carries no karma is foolish. Everything carries more than sufficient karmic reaction; thats one of the fundamental problems with the material world. As far as Prabhupada's opinion, he advised us that if in preparation any cut vegetable falls and touches the floor, it should be washed and used. But if the vegetable falls and touches one's foot, it shouldn't be used. No special exception for potatos, or any other vegetable. Simple and practical. From an academic point of view (and from a Jainist point of view), potatos are still alive when one prepares them, and could be considered "more sinful". But that word is somewhat meaningless as it is defined based on one's religion or faith.

This temple is the Brihat-isvara temple in Tanjavur. The diety is a huge Shiva Linga, maybe 10-15 feet wide. The top stone is carved somewhat like a pyramid (four side forming in a triangle), but with steps so to speak (not flat). The shadow of this stone doesn't fall on the rest of the temple, which is another engineering wonder. The ideas how they put the stone up there is really funny. One theory suggests they made a 30 km long ramp! Personally I think it is an even more amazing feat to build a 30 km ramp then to move the stone. Of course the idea that they made a huge bridge out of sand is another funny idea. The traditional explanation comes from the mantra shastras, where it explains how to change the density of stone by invoking mantras. The process is to merge each of the pancha-bhutas back into the previous, thereby removing the corresponding qualities. The mantra shastras explain that this process is also used to move the granite deities from the sculpting place to the main temple hall. There are different methods described. One involves merging the pancha-bhutas into ether, and as a result the object ceases to exist in the physical perceivable realm. In that state it is possible to move the object through the mind and then reverse the process. The second method involves merging the lower elements into air. As a result the object becomes as light as cotton, and can easily be moved by asingle man.

Setting the scene ***************** Attracted by the intense austerities of the rakshasa Ravana, Lord Brahma offers him a boon. Ravana asks for the benediction that he cannot be killed by any god, yaksha, naga, rakshasa or any other celestial being. Arrogantly confident of his own powers Ravana does not include the puny humans or animals while asking for the boon. Bound by the power of his austerities, Lord Brahma grants him the boon. Ravana is now practically invincible. He fights and defeats Kubera, king of the powerful Yakshas and takes from him the mystical chariot called Pushpaka. The chariot, controlled by the mind of its driver, is indestructible and can travel in all directions. Surrounded by hordes of fearsome rakshasa, resplendent in his chariot, Ravana travels likes lightening in dark clouds, eager to establish his supremacy in the three worlds. He enters the heavenly kingdoms but the gods aware of the boon he has received do not dare face him. Disappointed he comes down to Earth and spots the city of Ayodhya, the capital city of the emperor, King Anaranya. Ravana descends on the city and issues a challenge. In the fierce battle that ensues, the valiant army of King Anaranya is completely annihilated. Ravana personally attacks the king and mortally wounds him. The pious king, a descendant of the Solar dynasty emanating from Iksvaku, the Sun god, in his last breath curses Ravana. 'In the very line you deride O vile Ravana there will be born a king who will destroy you and your entire race.' The scornful Ravana having established his supremacy returns to his kingdom of Lanka. King Dasaratha ************** Several years have now passed and Earth is once again peaceful under the rule of King Dasaratha, a descendant of King Anaranya. The king is pious and loved by his subjects. There is an abundance of rain and every one is prosperous and happy. However Dasaratha is a worried man. Coming in the lineage of the Sun god (Surya-vamsha) and great kings like Raghu, Sibi and Harishcandra, he is worried that the dynasty may end with him, for he has no sons. Hoping to please the gods, he resolves to perform the Ashvamedha yajna (sacrifice), one of the most difficult and potent sacrifices. When Sumantra, a closed confidant of the king hears about this he shares with him an ancient prophecy spoken by the great sage Sanat Kumar, one of the first four sons of Lord Brahma. In this prophecy Sanat Kumar had revealed that the sacrifice performed by King Dasaratha would be successful if conducted by Sage Rishyasringa, and the king would be blessed by four sons equal to Lord Vishnu. Sumantra then proceeds to relate the tale of the great Sage Rishyasringa. Sage Rishyasringa ***************** Vibandaka, the son of Kasyapa Muni, lived exclusively in the deep forests with his son Rishyasringa. Completely cut off from any contact with human civilization, the father and son spent all their time studying the Vedas and performing intense austerities. So secluded was the life of Rishyasringa that he had never seen anyone but his father. With his mind, undisturbed by any distractions, his activities guided by his learned father, Rishyasringa grows up to be a powerful and pure sage of immense mystic powers and vastly learned in science of the Vedas. Nearby was the kingdom of Anga ruled by Maharaja Romapada, a pious king and a close friend of King Dasaratha. The kingdom was distressed by a long drought and the king invited the learned brahamins to recommend some cure. The brahamins proposed that the presence of some one with a spotless character will bring all auspiciousness to the kingdom, some one like Rishyasringa. Using various lures, King Romapada got Rishyasringa to leave the forest and come to his kingdom and marry his daughter Shanta. As promised by the brahmins, with the presence of Rishyasringa came the rains and all auspiciousness. The great sage Rishyasringa resided peacefully in the kingdom of Anga with his chaste and beautiful wife, Shanta. The great sacrifice ******************* Greatly encouraged by the predictions of Sanat Kumar as related by Sumantra, King Dasaratha proceeds to the kingdom of Anga where he is joyfully greeted by his old friend King Romapada. After spending a few days enjoying the hospitality of the King, Dasaratha expresses his desire to invite Rishyasringa for performing the Ashvamedha sacrifice. Both Romapada and Rishyasringa accept his proposal and Dasaratha happily returns to Ayodhya with Rishyasringa and Shanta. The preparation of the Ashvamedha sacrifice are elaborate and extensive. A pure bred white horse is allowed to roam freely all over the Earth, accompanied by the army of King Dasaratha. Any king who challenges the sovereignity of King Dasaratha could stop the horse and then would have to fight the armies of the king. However, since every one is happy with Dasaratha, this does not happen and after one year the horse returns accompanied by the triumphant army. In the meantime the elaborate preparations for the sacrifice have also been completed. All the great kings, the learned brahamins, the austere sannyasis and the pious citizens have been invited to the sacrifice and given generously in charity. Thus under the guidance of Rishyasringa the great Ashvamedha sacrifice is perfectly executed and completed. The demigods meet ***************** Rishyasringa then commences the second sacrifice for a son, called the Putra-kamesti sacrifice, that can only be performed by the most pious and learned. As the sacrifice begins, the demigods approach Lord Brahma. Greatly distressed by the boons of invincibility that Lord Brahma has conferred to Ravana, the demigods implore Brahma to approach Lord Vishnu to descend in a human form, as the son of Dasaratha, for the destruction of the evil Ravana. Attracted by the prayers of Lord Brahma and the demigods, the omnipotent Lord Vishnu arrives, mounted on His bird carrier, Garuda. Observing the distress of the demigods, the compassionate Lord Vishnu agrees to descend as the son of Dasaratha, accompanied by His expansions as His three brothers. In this incarnation, Lord Vishnu promises, He would annihilate the evil kingdom of Ravana, rule the planet for ten thousand and ten hundred years and for posterity set forth the standards of a person ideal in all respects. Lord Vishnu also instructs the demigods to prepare for His arrival by expanding themselves on Earth. Since the greatly arrogant Ravana had not asked for protection from animals, the demigods are instructed to expand in the form of monkeys and bears. Thus instructed, the demigods create a race of celestial monkeys and bears, immensely powerful and mystical. The race is headed by Vali (son of Indra) and his younger brother Sugriva (son of Surya). The celestial architect Vishvakarma begets Nala and the Ashwini twins beget Mainda and Dvivida. At this time also appears the famous Hanuman (son of Vayu the wind god). From Jambavana, the son of Brahma appear a race of powerful bears. Thus this divine race of monkeys and bears, their strength and numbers increasing to the thousands, roam the Earth and await the descent of Lord Vishnu. The sacrifice concludes *********************** As the sacrifice draws to an end, an effulgent figure appears in the fire of the sacrifice and offers a pot of the sacred payasam (sweet rice) to King Dasaratha. In a grave voice like rolling thunder, the mystical being instructs King Dasaratha to share this with his wives in order to receive the blessings of a child. The great Dasaratha then pleases all the assembled priests and guests with expensive gifts and charming words of true humility. Having received their blessings he proceeds to the inner chambers of his palace where his three wives are expectantly waiting. He first offers the pot to his eldest wife, Kaushalya, who partakes of half the offering and gives the bowl to Sumitra who takes half of the remaining payasam. Kakeyi then takes half of the remaining payasam. Dasaratha then offers the pot again to Sumitra who finishes the remnants. Birth of Lord Rama ****************** In this way imbued by the potency of the offering, the three queens soon begin to show signs of expectant mothers. First born is the son to Queen Kaushilya, Lord Ramacandra, an incarnation of the Lord Vishnu. Next Kaikeya gives birth to Bharata and finally Sumitra, having partaken of the payasam twice, gives birth to the twins, Lakshmana and Shatrugahana. The Ramayana ************ Thus was set the stage for the annihilation of Ravana who would be eventually killed by a 'mere mortal' Lord Rama assisted by an army of monkeys and bears headed by Sugriva and Jambavana and His greatest servitor Hanumana. The epic Ramayana recited by the great sage Valmiki under the instructions of Lord Brahma records the pastimes of Lord Ramacandra. The recitation or hearing of the Ramayana is considered most auspicious for spiritual advancement, more so on the appearance day of its hero, Lord Ramacandra. All glories to Lord Rama! All glories to Ramayana!! Reference: Valmiki Ramayana, Bala Kanda, Sarga 8-12

His Divine Grace Paramapujyapada Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja (An excerpt from a lecture on Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila 12.80-83, at Krishna-Balarama Mandir, Bhubaneswar, India, September 10, 1993) Often we say, "This Caitanya Caritamrta is the postgraduate study", because in the Caitanya Caritamrta the most confidential tattva, namely prema-tattva is there. Especially, gopi-prema-tattva and radha-prema-tattva are there. It is a very, very deep and confidential tattva. It is not discussed in the general public, because it is meant for paramahamsas. For those who are on the paramahamsa stage, very, very elevated Vaishnavas who have achieved at least the bhava-stage, this course is there. So somehow or other we have this postgraduate class, but I do not know how many students there are. I am a fool because I do not know how many are there. Somehow I beg mercy at the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu who is the supreme authority of this course. So I beg for His mercy because He is wonderfully merciful and He can, as we say, kakera garuda kare, make a crow into Garuda. Mahaprabhu is so wonderfully merciful and His mercy is so inconceivably powerful, potential that even a crow will become Garuda, kakera garuda kare. Therefore I beg mercy at the lotus feet of wonderfully merciful Sriman Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is the supreme authority of this tattva. "These students are all crows Mahaprabhu, please shower your mercy on them so that they will become Garuda and understand this tattva. Otherwise there is no question at all." I am a fool, I have such a class here but I do not know how many students there are, all crows. As a matter of fact, if this topic comes up, I cannot but speak it. Because this is Caitanya Caritamrta, this topic of tattva comes up. In this verse it says, krishna-prema-maya, this prema-tattva comes up so I cannot but speak it. What shall I do? I have been cursed. If I won't speak I will die. This curse is on me so what shall I do? Although crows are there and they cannot understand, the curse is on me. I cannot but speak it, otherwise I will die, that is the curse. So I pray for the mercy of Mahaprabhu, "Please shower Your mercy on these crows Mahaprabhu, and let them be empowered, let them be Garuda and understand this tattva." [This excerpt is found in the book "Bhakti-naipunya - The Last Limit of Bhakti", published by Sri Guru Gauranga Press, 1994.]

Bhagavad Gita 18:2 sri-bhagavan uvaca kamyanam karmanam nyasam sannyasam kavayo viduh sarva-karma-phala-tyagam prahus tyagam vicaksanah The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: The giving up of activities that are based on material desire is what great learned men call the renounced order of life [sannyasa]. And giving up the results of all activities is what the wise call renunciation [tyaga].

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