karthik_v

I am very surprised at this remark of yours. It was John Playfair who first dated the vedas based on astronomical keys. Bailley also came up with the same dates though he worked independent of Playfair. Playfair used 17 key indicators to validate them. Tilak proposed the dates based on Orion. None of the above were refuted by anyone. In fact, the only opposition that those dates contradicted mosaic account of creation. And that was the only reason why the European Indologists of the last century ignored them. Not because, they could refute them. Even Seidenberg agrees with those keys.

I have read in a translation of Valmiki Ramayana, a few years ago, that even Sita was wearing the sacred thread. So, it seems that in a different yuga, even women had that right. Of course, I didn't find anything to that effect in Gita Press VR edition. So, I don't know the authenticity. May be some other member can clarify.

Sorry Bhaktasahab Prabhu. Thanks for correcting me. When I wrote that sentence, I was having Indologists/Sanskritists like Deshpande (Michigan) and Witzel(Harvard) and their likes. These are the people who cannot speak Sanskrit, cannot read Brahmi script and yet gang up to stifle any opposition and launch their many anti-Hindu tirades and try to sustain untenable theories. I wasn't talking of the likes of Maharaj. Sorry about that.

Even now, most Indologists like Witzel, still maintain that there weren't horses in India before the supposed AI took place. Anyway, the second part of my post is more significant. If at all, there was an invasion, there should have been a quantum jump in horse remains for the period 1500 BC to 1200 BC. On the contrary, Rg veda talks of the Indian horse as being 34 ribbed. And all the horse remains found in India for the period preceding and during IVC are 34 ribbed. This again confirms that RV Aryans were not invaders. Had they been, they would have spoken of 36 ribbed horses, not 34. Well, if similarity is used to suggest that there was a common origin, that common place seems to be India. Even the vedic verses attest to that. I am not a big believer in linguistic analysis. It is not a science. You can interpret things in a million ways. I don't know if you are a Tamil. Asko Parpola tries to find proto-Tamil words in IVC inscriptions and they are amusing. Had it come from an Indian, the whole world would have derided such thoughts. The so-called linguistic analysis, which is so subjective, should not at all be accorded any importance. Instead, astronomical keys in these treatises should take precedence.

I was reading recently, though I can't remember the source, about a research in the food habits among the Chinese and the Korean people. The study covered the past 6 decades. It showed that with increase in economic wealth, these people too shifted from a pre-dominantly vegetarian diet to a pre-dominantly meat-based diet. Looks like that material prosperity too can be an obstacle for spiritual progress.

Shvu: Regarding Mittanis, for a long time, Indologists maintained that they were Indo-Iranians who migrated eastwards. Only recently, in the face of incontrovertible evidence, they are agreeing that they came from India. Let me give you another evidence also. If the Aryans came into India on their horses, what should you expect to find? You should find no remains of horses preceding 1500 BC and between 1500 BC and 1200 BC, you should find an abundance of horse remains, right? But, what is the reality? Horses (34 ribbed, not the Steppes one) have always been found in IVC. There is no difference in the pattern of finds for the period preceding 1500 BC and the period after that. In fact, the finds jump up only after 600 BC and this is the period which throws up finds of the Steppes horse (36 ribbed). Understandable, as the Persians and later Greeks come to India then. Another proof that the AIT is flawed. I don't know if you have read Talageri. But, he has elucidated beautifully that the original home of the Indo-Aryans was the Gangetic basin and they indeed moved westwards. This is the view with which every objective scholar like B B Lal, Cardona, etc., have agreed.

I was referring to the period when she was alive. And today's MOC under Nivedita is run exactly the same way Teresa ran it. Talking of her mystic power, Vatican is trying to invent stories regarding her "miracles". In the next 2 decades, you can see that circulating all around. After all, many criminals end up as mystics decades after death, if there is enough propaganda! I cannot disagree with you on the need for ISKCON to manage its limited funds more transparently. I was only contending your unintended comparison of ISKCON in eternal penury, with a rich criminal organisation like that of Teresa.

When Christopher Hutchins made the film Hell's angel Teresa, nobody could refute what he stated there. But the media pounced on the one unsavoury remark he made about Teresa's virginity. And they succeeded highlighting that and thereby relegated the main issue to the back burner. So, never underestimate the power of organised media and the in built inertia of the masses to change their perceived notions, especially when it comes to "saints".

Many reasons. If Congress antagonised Teresa, you end up upsetting the sizeable Christian populations in Kerala and Goa and lose those states. You also dump your chances of ever getting a foothold in the Christian NE. After the defeat in 1977, that was the last thing Congress can ever afford to do. The moment you go after Teresa, you not only antagonise the minority but also boost the prospects of the Hindu parties, which were just emerging in the 80s. Even BJP will be very wary of taking on someone as powerful as Teresa. It is very very tough to go against a media opinion cultivated over decades. Often the risks of unmasking the truth are so high, that a government may just shove the entire matter under the carpet. Don't forget as to how Teresa kicked up media frenzy when CAG demanded probe. She made melodramatic statements that she is only accountable to the Lord. Starting from Chawla to Ram, every pseudo-secular sycophant wrote sympathising with her. Never mind that nobody spoke of the points that the CAG had raised. They just spoke of the bandages and the lepers. Naturally, Congress developed cold feet. Of course, no one should also forget that Sonia hails from an Italian family that was a close ally of Mussolini and also brokered peace between Vatican and Mussolini. One also cannot forget that the vast network of Sonia's family has been used in the past to smuggle out the temple statues from India and have them auctioned through Christie, after channelising them through Catholic stores in Italy and Luxembourg. So, there was a personal stake as well. Stonehearted: First of all, ISKCON doesn't have the millions that Vatican or MOC have. Most ISKCON temples are in eternal penury. Yes, I agree with you that even ISKCON bosses may resist accountability, but don't forget one thing. ISKCON's accounts are publicly audited every year in every nation in the world. That is not the case with Teresa, who keeps rotating her funds between Panama, US, Luxembourg more astutely than a mafia don. So, don't compare a child who may pilfer her sister's chocolate (assuming that ISKCON does that) with a mafia don.

Dear Shvu: This is the view put forth by European transators and their present day followers. I had a chance to discuss this in detail with an Arya Samaji and an Aurobindo ashramite, both outstanding Sanskrit scholars. They both pointed out that Indra, Mithra etc., are only part of the Brahmanas. Even in the vedic times, they were only part of the rituals. Even today, they are just part of the rituals. Two years ago, when my twin daughetrs turned one, I organised for a full feldged vedic ritualistic yagna by a very good priest. I observed that all the sacrifices were to Agin, Indra and Varuna in that order. So, the ritualistic importance of Indra et al, hasn't changed. Even Prof. Cardona, America's greates authority in Sanskrit and incidentally the only American academic who can speak Sanskrit, agrees to this. I don't know if you have followed the latest in AIT. This very point can be used to show that all the above folks originated in India. Let me give one evidence. The motif of the ancient Mittani is peacock and no other Asian animal. This is possible only if the Aryan groups (vedic groups) had migrated westwards. Not the other way round.

Sirona: There are many third rate sites that are Muslim funded and that abuse Hinduism. The best way to learn our religion is by reading such books as Bhagavad Gita or Srimad Bhagavatam yourself. In another thread, we exposed how those sites quote non-existent verses or books or render untenable translations. Don't be mislead.

MOC = Missionaries of Charity BOV = Bank of Vatican (I don't recall its Latin version) CAG = Comptroller and Auditor General of India (an autnomous audit authority). Only, the foreigners who visit Calcutta on a few days of mission, ever carry the impression that Teresa was serving the poor in Calcutta. Not the Calcuttans. But, kindly don't even make such a remark to the slum-dwellers of Calcutta. They will assault you. You would be rubbing salt to their wounds. They are sick of foreign channels frequenting them and spreading myths. Next time try calling MOC, Calcutta. Nobody will speak in Bangali. They can't speak anything more than four words in Hindi (Boliye, Aapko kya chaahiye, Aap Angrezime baath kijiye). So, in what language were they serving the poor of Calcutta? Latin? If MOC is really caring for the dying, you should have their ambulance services listed in Calcutta yellow pages, isn't it? BTW, another piece of information I need to give you is that Teresa, for all her proclaimed simplicity, always flew to Baltimore to be treated at John Hopkins. Stern once listed all her visits, with a copy of the bills and flight tickets. So, simplicity was only advocated for the poor of Calcutta. There are even people that venerate Pius XII, despite the fact he was responsible for Hitler's rise. Even the very Jewish Rothschild trust venerated him. Big deal! The world is full of crooks who will sell their mothers for getting a pizza. Did anyone criticize him when he lived? So, I am not surprised that Teresa has been venerated. If CNN and Time start a campaign stating that Karthik is the greatest saint that India has seen, I bet, 99% of the people will not dare to refute that. In a few months, that myth would get etched as Gospel. Many made millions thanks to her. In a few years, people will slowly start accepting the truth about Teresa. J N Das Prabhu, The 300-400 people the MOC fed includes their own workforce. Shvu, My friend has had very close association with MOC, for he married a young nun from MOC. And taught her Bengali and Hindi after marriage! Nothing happened without Teresa's knowledge. She had such a tight control over every dollar that flowed in and out. Yashoda DD: Anyway, many people say filthy things about Srila Prabhupad. Do you know something? Every Indian newspaper publicised the class action lawsuit against ISKCON. The US papers did that. But, none published the news when the suit was thrown out. So, out of such misplaced fears, let us not venerate crooks like Teresa, who just helped the likes of Marcos launder money, while Philipines starved. SP will remain in the minds of devotees and the sane ones forever. Anyway, virtually all her medicines came free from the Government of India. She even administered Crocin (Tylenol) for people dying of pneumonia or AIDS. Her MOC had 2 doctors and they administerd shots using unsterilized syringes. Often, unable to bear with her tortures (in the name of Jesus of course), patients would try to escape, only to be brought back by the 18 sentinels posted in front of MOC. Pray tell me why the hell MOC needs 18 sentinels? And don't forget that Teresa, for most part, used the Municipal hospital, Kalighat. It was government's money, government's doctors and nurses and fame to Teresa. How many of you ever contemplated as to why Teresa, set up her institution near Kalighat in the 1940? For those who are unaware of geography, the famous mission of Sri Ramakrishna Pramahamsa (Vivekananda was his disciple) is stone's throw away from there. I suggest that some of you read up on the encyclicals of Vatican that was very concerned with the surging popularity of RKM and wanted to nullify it. Bingo! Thus arrived Teresa, the money launderer (aka saint).

Sorry for keeping this response short. I am very busy this entire week and worked week-end too. Between 1979 and 1992 Teresa raised US$190 million for MOC, Calcutta alone. Except, Rs.6 lacs, the rest is all kept in accounts in Panama and the US, all controlled by BOV. None spent for the cause. Ramakrishna mission, which thrives on paltry donations, has many times more bigger hospital, not only in Calcutta but also in many other cities. Her entire hospital, is a sham. It is having just 75 beds. Even , L&C, who praised her so much in COJ, were a little critical by 1992. CAG of India demanded audit of her accounts thrice, to be shot down by the Congress govt.. Start with this link: http://website.lineone.net/~bajuu/ I will post more on this when I find a little time. I used to be a big admirer of her, till 1993 and even donated money on a regular basis. But, my entire perception changed when I received inputs from a friend who worked for SBI that handled MOC accounts. He showed me many telexed copies of WT orders. That was when I first started suspecting her. When I read CAG reports, it was bolstered. Stern ran a few reports. UK too conducted one audit, but MOC was smart to move the money out by then. Now I am sure that MOC is no more than a front of BOV for laundering.

Ramdas was one of the greatest saints of the world. He was the inspirer of Shivaji. He was born of Suryaji Panth and Renuka Bai in Jamb, Maharashtra, in 1608 A.D. His original name was Narain. Ramdas was a contemporary of Sant Tukaram. He was a great devotee of Hanuman and Lord Rama. He had Darshan of Lord Rama even when he was a boy. Lord Rama Himself initiated him. When Ramdas was twelve years of age, all arrangements were made for his marriage. He sat in front of the bride. There was a screen between the bridegroom and the bride. When the priests chanted "Sawadhan!' (be alert), Ramdas bolted away from the place and disappeared within the twinkling of an eye. Studies and Penances: For twelve years Ramdas stayed at Nasik on the banks of the Godavari. He used to get up very early in the morning, go into the Godavari river, and with his body half-immersed in water, recite the sacred Gayatri Mantra till about noon. Then he would go round for alms. He first offered the collected food to his Deity Sri Rama and then took it as Prasad. After resting a while, he used to attend religious discourses in the various temples of Nasik and Panchavati. Ramdas also studied Sanskrit and copied in his own hand the Ramayana of Valmiki. This manuscript is still preserved in the collection of Sri S.S. Dev of Dhubliah. Ramdas did Purascharana of the Rama Mantra of thirteen letters Sri Ram Jaya Ram Jaya Jaya Ram thirteen lakhs of times at Tafali, near Nasik, on the banks of the Godavari. After the Purascharana was over, once again Ramdas had Darshan of Lord Rama. It is said that Ramachandra ordered Ramdas to visit holy places such as Nasik, Haridwar, Kasi, etc. Ramdas was an Advaitin and a Bhakta in one. He had this very noble quality that he never hated any religion or nation. His main object was to spread the Hindu religion throughout India. Ramdas had not visited Pandharpur, as he had not known the existence of this holy place. One day, the tradition says, Lord Panduranga Vittal, in the form of a Brahmin, with a batch of three hundred pilgrims, appeared before Ramdas and asked him whether he had any objection to see Lord Krishna. Ramdas replied in the negative. Panduranga then took Ramdas to Pandharpur, and when the Bhaktas approached the temple, the Brahmin disappeared. Ramdas then knew that it was none other than the Lord that had brought him to that holy place. He entered the temple, and to his great surprise, found Sri Rama standing alone on a brick. Ramdas addressed the Deity thus: "O Lord, what are You doing here alone? Where is Your brother Lakshmana and Your consort Sita Mata? Where is Maruti and where are the monkey hordes?". On hearing these words, the image at once transformed itself into Sri Pandarinath. Ramdas then praised Panduranga for His kindness, prostrated before Him and sang songs of joy for getting His rare Darshan. Ramdas now felt doubly convinced that the several incarnations of the Lord were but His several forms and preached that everyone should respect and worship the One who took care of one and all in the world. Ramdas then worshipped Panduranga to his heart's content and became a frequent visitor and Bhakta of Panduranga Vittal also. In Pandharpur, Ramdas came in contact with Tukaram and other saints of Pandharpur. In his pilgrimages, Ramdas observed and studied the social, political and economic conditions of Indians and their utter helplessness in life. It is said that Sri Rama ordered Ramdas to go to the banks of the Krishna and help the cause of Shivaji, the incarnation of Siva and founder of the Kingdom of Maharashtra. Ramdas came to the Krishna and went about preaching from Mahabaleshwar to Kolhapur. He established eleven principal seats of Maruti which emphasized the importance of physical development. He installed the shrines of Sri Ramachandra at Champavati and introduced Sri Rama Navami Mahotsava and the procession of Sri Rama's chariot. It was at the place called Singanvadi that Shivaji became the disciple of Ramdas. Shivaji placed the sandals of his Guru on the throne and acted as regent of the kingdom under the orders and guidance of his Guru and adopted as ensign the flag of orange colour. There is a beautiful and romantic incident current in the Maharashtra country about Shivaji's adoption of the Gerua flag and his ruling the kingdom in the name of Saint Ramdas. One day Shivaji saw, from the terrace of his palace, his Gurudev Ramdas going about the streets with his begging bowl. Shivaji was surprised and could not understand why his Guru should beg when he himself had already placed all his resources at the disposal of his Gurudev. However, Sadhus are difficult to understand. Shivaji therefore called for his companion Balaji, wrote a small chit and asked him to give it to Guruji when he came to the palace. About noon, Ramdas came to the palace with his bowl and Balaji prostrated before Gurudev and placed the chit at his feet. Briefly, the chit conveyed that Shivaji had made a gift of his whole kingdom to Gurudev and he humbly solicited his Gurudev's blessing. The Guru smiled and told Balaji that it was alright. Next morning Ramdas called on Shivaji and asked him what he proposed to do with himself as he had disposed of his kingdom. Shivaji prostrated himself before Ramdas and said that he would be very happy and consider himself blessed if he should spend his life in his Gurudev's service. Then Ramdas said, "Take this bowl and let us go on our rounds". So Ramdas and Shivaji went round Satara begging. The people reverently bowed before the pair and gave them alms. The pair returned to the river. Ramdas prepared his simple meals and Shivaji partook of what was left after his Gurudev had finished his meals. Then Shivaji, with a smile, asked his Gurudev what he was going to do with him after reducing him to a beggar. Ramdas knew that the opportunity had come to set up a lofty ideal for the king. Ramdas asked Shivaji to rule the kingdom in his (Ramdas's) name, to take the Gerua Chaddar for his banner and defend its honour with his life, and to think that the kingdom did not belong to himself but treat it as a trust to be ruled justly and well before God. And thus had come the Gerua banner to Shivaji. Ramdas spent several years in visiting holy places of pilgrimage. He erected several Hanuman temples in Maharashtra. When he returned from his pilgrimage, somebody told Ramdas that his mother was pining for him, and that she had lost her eyesight on account of extreme sorrow arising out of his separation. Ramdas immediately went to see his mother. He made prostrations to his mother. His mother was exceedingly pleased to meet her son after an absence of many years. Ramdas touched the eyes of his mother. She got back her lost eyesight through the Yogic power of her son. His Preachings and Life: Ramdas's ways were very peculiar. He appeared to the outside world as a mad man. He had a small bow. He used to have, by his side, a large number of stones with which he pelted every object he saw. To men really interested in his teachings, he gave the Mantra Sri Ram Jaya Ram Jaya Jaya Ram. Ramdas had eleven hundred disciples, of whom three hundred were women. The women disciples were also expert preachers and were virtuous. Ramdas sent his disciples to all parts of India to spread the Hindu religion. His disciples and Mutts in the North directly or indirectly helped Shivaji and his work. Ramdas's organisation in the South, round about Thanjavur, helped Shivaji's son Rajaram to go to Jinji and carry on the Twenty Years' War with Aurangazeb. When Ramdas visited Thanjavur, Venkoji, who was the step-brother of Shivaji, became his disciple. Ramdas appointed Bhimaswami, his direct disciple, as the Mahant of the Thanjavur Mutt. Last Days: Ramdas generally preferred to live in the forest, where he would say, he had better meditation. In his last days, Ramdas devoted his time partly to literary activities and partly to the systematic building up of his disciples and Mutts, both in the North and in the South. The literary works of Ramdas such as Dasabodh, Manache Shlok (verse addressed to the mind), Karunashtakas (hymns to God) and Ramayana (describing only the conquest of Lanka by Sri Rama and the vanquishing of Ravana) are very popular. It was as a tribute to Ramdas's extraordinary patience and determination in rehabilitating the Hindu religion in India that people named him Samartha (all-powerful) Ramdas, a name which he richly deserved. This great Guru of Maharashtra breathed his last in 1682 at Sajjangad, near Satara, a fortress which was given to him by Shivaji for his residence. Ramdas repeated the Rama Mantra with his last breath. At the time of his departure from the world, a dazzling light emanated from his body and Ramdas was absorbed in the image of Lord Rama. The last instructions of Ramdas to his disciples were: "Do not think much of your bodily wants. Have Satsang with devotees. Keep the image of Lord Rama in your heart. Repeat the name of Lord Rama always. Annihilate lust, greed, anger, hatred and egoism. See Lord Rama in all creatures. Love all. Feel His presence everywhere. Live for Him alone. Serve Him in all beings. Make total and unreserved surrender unto Him. You will always live in Him alone. You will attain immortality and eternal bliss".

Gauracandra Prabhuji, I disagree with your observation on this Pope. In fact, he is very fundamentalist and highly conservative. He is one of the persons who pursued the beatification of Pius XII. When he came to India, he refused to acknowledge that Hinduism is a religion and also refused to apologize for the inquisition of Goa. Vatican PR release said that every mistake of the past need not be apologised for. He also wrote the most arrogant note from any foreign dignitory ever at Gandhi samadhi: Any culture (here referring to India), that tries to be exclusive will perish. He also lamented in Talkatora stadium that despite the fact that Jesus was born an Asian, Christianity didn't flourish in Asia. He called for the evangelisation of India. Arun Shourie came up with a nice repartee. He asked why despite Jesus having been an Asian, no Asian has ever been a Pope!. So, if he apologized (half-heartedly) in Israel, it is only because the Jewish lobby is very powerful. And Bank of Vatican cannot antagonize them, if it were to continue its money laundering activities. Well, Hindus don't have that clout you see, so he gave them a rough deal. Sadly, this world gets carried away by the propaganda on CNN and Time magazine. Aren't there millions that believe Mother(!) Teresa was holy and that she served the poor of Calcutta?

I don't know about scriptures or acharyas' statements, but I do remember that there are a few devotional songs in Tamil that describe Krina's eyes as black. I don't recall the songs though. Most vivid descriptions about his blue-black complexion.

There are many scientific studies conducted that do lend credence to reincarnation. I am posting one here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52232-2001Dec16.html Normally, the mainstream science offers a lot of resistance before they accept anything contrary to their traditions. Accupuncture and chiropractic were ridiculed by mainstream medicine a few decades ago. Christianity, for certain accepts reincarnation, though the church rejects it. I am busy today and will post more on this and other topics over the week-end. Similarly, till the Vatican whitewashed cultures, virtually every culture accepted reincarnation. I will also write on reincarnation and ancient Tamil saints, this week-end.

Here is a nice link I thought the members may enjoy reading. This is one of the series of compilations recently made by Michael Danino. I will also post the rest in the days to come. http://ifihhome.tripod.com/mgs001.html

Dear Jijaji Prabhu, A valid observation. If we assume that MAhabharat was fought in our dimensions, then I think the numbers mentioned therein might often be exaggerations. Let us not forget that the original Mahabharata has been embellished over a period of time and there are countless versions. Often each king had his chroniclers include his name too. One example is that of Cheralathan, a Chera king, who claimed to have fed both the armies. Such thing is not even mentioned in the original. So, there is a distinct possibility of exaggeration. But, let us also consider another side. European universities have been rewarding Indians for advancing theories that categorise all our epics as myths. One such example is Romilla Thapar getting her D.Litt from Oxford last week. And, these 'scholars' have not done so on the basis of any facts. They have simply advanced their theories on 'previously accepted' notions. So, this camp is even worse. Another possibility is that Mahabharata was fought in a different plane or dimension. Now Quantum mechanics tells us that an entity can exist in multiple dimensions simultaneously. We simply exist in 3-D plus time. What if Mahabharat was fought in a higher dimension and the sages just recorded that for us? If so, we won't find any archeological evidence, even if the war had ended just this morning. QM now allows for atleast 11 dimensions.

I have also heard some wonderful devotees mention that Lord Krishna incarnates, also for the purpose of fulfilling the desires of his devotees who want to associate with Him in this world. Some may associate as a potter, some as a mother, etc., but He is in no position to turn down their reuests. I also agree with J NDas that Krishna need not incarnate to enforce dharma. He can do it from Goloka itself, if He wants.

I have also heard some wonderful devotees mention that Lord Krishna incarnates, also for the purpose of fulfilling the desires of his devotees who want to associate with Him in this world. Some may associate as a potter, some as a mother, etc., but He is in no position to turn down their reuests. I also agree with J NDas that Krishna need not incarnate to enforce dharma. He can do it from Goloka itself, if He wants.

HAre Krishna Laksri: Very nice observation. I didn't compare 1.13.26 and 1.5.6 before. I compared the versions published by Gita Press and the one from valmikiramayan.net and both contain the same verses (quoted here). I think both follow the eastern recenssion. Logically, Dasaratha should have been the king of Kosala, but that verse says otherwise. I don't have an explanation. Or does it have anything to do with Kausalya? Is her name derived from Kosala or something like that? May be if J N Das is not too busy, he can help clarify this.

Here, let me give some more evidences to show that AIT is fatally flawed. One of the main stance of the propagandists of the AIT is that the Indo-Aryans came from central Asia into India. They used to claim that the Mittani culture was the fore-runner of the Indo-Aryans. Now, after the Mittani civilization has been analysed threadbare, a very interesting evidence surfaces. Most of their art consists of peacock motif and there has not been any other central Asian motif. You got it. That peacock clearly proves that the Mittani were indeed indigenous Aryans from India who migrated weswards. A German archaeologist, Brentjes, did most of the research in this area, so you can't even accuse the Hindutva brigade of having engineered this! Also, the AIT propagandists used to claim that there were no horses in the IVC. Wrong. There have been many finds. Let me list a few: In the Indus Valley, the horse (equus caballus Linn) was first reported in 1931 in Mohenjo-daro (Sewell and Guha). Mackay reported a clay model in the same site in 1938. Bhola Nath reported horse bones in 1963 from Harappa, Ropar and Lothal. Piggott reported a horse figurine from Periano Ghundai. Other reports include the Swat Valley (Stacul), Gumla (Sankalia), Pirac (Shaffer) Malvan (Sharma, A.K.) Kalibhangan (ibid), Kuntasi (Sharma, R.S.), Rangpur (Rao R.S.), Lothal (I don't know the finder), Rana Ghundai (Ross), Surkotada (Sharma, A.K). The exact species of horse is the crucial issue here--equus caballus Linn is the Aryan steed. This is the breed with 34 ribs, unlike the Arabian or the Steppes horse which has 36 ribs. And all these finds were dated between 2000 to 3500 BC, much before the date the Aryans were supposed to have invaded India. More interesting are the reports of horse findings near Allahabad dated from 2265-1480 BCE and from a Neolithic site in Karnataka--both well before the Aryans are supposed to have come in introducing the animal and much too far East and South. Now you may want to ask the propagandists of the AIT if there was an increase in the find of horse remains in the IVC for the date 1500 BC to 1200 BC. After all, if the Aryans came in with their horses in 1500 BC, you should find a steep jump in the finds for this period, right? What does archeology reveal? The find is the same. It doesn't vary at all. Looks like the only thing to be buried is the AIT. Another Indo-Aryan feature found in the IVC is the fire altars. These have been found in Kalibhangan and Lothal causing even Aryan Invasion supporters such as Allchin to allow that the Indo-Aryans must have at least coexisted in the IVC. Some of these altars are domestic, some public, on a raised platform and arrayed in a row of seven facing East (suggesting the 7 dhish.nya hearths where the sacrificer had to face East). Nearby were a well and the remains of bath pavements suggesting ceremonial bathing. These altars were found both in the early and later stages of occupation of the towns from at least 2200 BCE (Lal, B.B "Some Reflections on the Structural Remains at Kalibangan"). Does it not tell you that the IVC itself should have been belonging to the time of Yajur veda? And those who claim that the IVC was distinct from vedic are yet to produce one fragment of evidence.

Facts cannot be either true or false. They HAVE to be true. AIT was not based on fact, either archeological or literary. It was purely a concoction. I have. That is why I discount Basham. The whole story of the Gods and animals worshipped in Harappa was based on 3 terracota seals that depict a man in seated position surrounded by animals, a man with a raised hand overlooking sonmeone bent and a 3 faced man. The inscription that goes with them is undeciphered, yet the likes of Basham had no qualms about weaving stories on these 'Gods' of Harappa. Hold on. Have you given logic a winter vacation? Before the 18th century European linguists, Aryan and Dravidian were never used in any racial sense in India. Not one literature, Sanskrit or Tamil, talks of an Aryan invasion. In other words, the AIT was introduced by the Europeans. So, it is they who need to provide evidence. All their "evidence" was just linguistic analysis. And linguistic analysis is not a science. They couldn't provide one bit of archeological evidence or even literary evidence. On the contrary, the anti-AIT team has demolished all the premises of AIT and presented evidences to the contrary. Let me give a few examples. One, the existence of Sarasvati before IVC has been conclusively proven. Two, biological anthropological studies by Kenneth Kennedy of Cornell have proven beyond doubt that there is no difference between the present population of Punjab, Sindh and Gujarat (which were part of IVC) and that which existed 2500 years ago. Jim Shaffer's archeological studies have clearly established that Harappa and Mohenjadaro weren't destroyed, but vacated instead as Sarasvati dried up. Horses, though few in number, have been found in the lowest strata of Harappa. Even more convincing is the fact that the horses discovered were an indigenous species with 34 ribs. And Rg veda talks of horses with 34 ribs. On the other hand, the middle-eastern and European horses have 36 ribs. These enter India only around 600 BC. The date of pyramids has not been determined on any scientific basis. It was based on certain assumptions and one of them was that they were burial places of the Pharaohs. But, the fact that not one mummy was discovered in the great Pyramids should make us suspect the fundamental assumptions. Neither is there any inscription to support such assumptions. Second, the date of the great Pyramids have been revised continuously over a few decades. Geologist Schoch of MIT showed that the erosion on their walls was not due to desert winds, but due to fresh water. That is how, the dates of the GP were pushed further backwards. There is nothing wrong in questioning the assigned dates, especially when the original assignment was done on conjecture and without any scientific basis and with racial prejudices. I quoted the studies of Kennedy and Shafer above. You may also want to note that way back in 1790, John Playfair, a British Physicist and astronomer, rejected the absurd dates assigned to the vedas. He ascertained this after evaluating 17 parameters. He was supported by another French physicist. Both referred to the keys in Rg veda and other vedas and showed a few things: One, these were composed no later than 4000 BC. Two, it is impossible to fake those observations by back-calculation, as doing so would require the knowledge of sine tables and the laws of gravitation. In fact, N S Rajaram shows that doing so would require the knowledge of Physics of this century. Tilak and others also showed those references but they weren't heard by the European academics. Please note that none could refute the evidences given by Playfair or Tilak. Instead, they opposed those statements on the grounds that they contradicted what is stated in Genesis. So, popular European view gave way to scientific facts and that is how these absurd dates came into place. Subhash Kak has listed the whole list of keys and references to planetary positions and markers such as solstices and ecclipses to conclusively date the vedas. I answered that in short above. I think you may want to read: The Astronomical Code of the Rgveda Author: Subhash Kak. (Available with MLBD) There are a few more, but this one is very scientific and irrefutable and devoid of anything you may call Hindutva bias. There are many recenssions of AS. ALB doesn't bother to mention this fact. Second, like his European masters, he is selectively quoting. The same AS also states that killing a cow is a sin and recommends punishment for that act. It also recommends the set of purificatory rites to be performed should a Brahmana ever consume meat. That should tell us that meat-eating was neither prevalent nor recommended. Even in vedas, I don't think that the meat was consumed after sacrifice. Often, verses are quoted from Rg veda to show that Agni and others consumed cow's meat. Often, the phrases are taken to mean "fat" and that is literally translated to mean that cow was eaten. Now let us see the verse from RV 7.95.2: pra kSodasA dhAyasA sasra eSA sarasvatI dharuNamAyasI pUH prabAbadhAnA rathyeva yAti vishvA apo mahinA sindhuranyAH Griffith translates it as: Pure in her course from mountains to the ocean, alone of streams Sarasvati hath listened. Thinking of wealth and the great world of creatures, she poured for Nahusa her milk and fat. Now to claim that Sarasvati was carrying beaf and that was consumed by the Brahmanas would be absurd. Vedas are written in a metaphorical language and you cannot translate them to give a literal meaning. I can give an anology. Let us say the world is destroyed today and just one newspaper headline about a soccer match survives. If someone were to read that a 1000 years from now and says that the headline "Romario hits the bull's eye in the finals against Italy" meant that in 2001, Brazilians and Italians played a game in which they kept a bull in a field and kept on cruelly hitting at its eye, how stupid would that be? So, figurative speech needs to be understood differently. None of the Europeans had the command of Sanskrit and the open mindset to do that. So, ALB's work which follows those guys in spirit, is no better. Great scholars like Swami Dayananda Saraswati and Swami Vivekananda exposed the European translators for their stupidity. Sadly, those were the colonial days and the erudite Indians who exposed the Europeans weren't listened to. What is the basis of this belief? Sure SG criticized sacrifices, and if SG had ever been popular, then it must lead to the reduction of sacrifices. But, how does that prove that vegetarianism wasn't there before? On the contrary, vedas and other books attest to the fact that vegetarianism was certainly there and the preferred way of life.

Raghuraman: I think you are referring to a Saudi funded Muslim site called themodernreligion.com, which alleges that Kausalya had sex with the horse, by quoting those verse numbers from VR. First of all, as J N Das pointed out those verses have nothing to do with Asvamedha yagna. And the verses that pertain to Asvamedha yagna talk nothing of sex as that site alleges. In fact the word sex itself doesn't occur anywhere in the context.In fact, those verses clearly state that the horse was killed. I guess one cannot have sex with a dead horse! These garbage sites just quote verse numbers and if you research, you will find one of the 2 things: 1. The verse itself doesn't exist. 2. It has a totally different meaning. I think a good way for you to learn VR is by getting the Sanskrit-English edition from Gita Press. Good luck.