karthik_v

Are you suggesting that I shouldn't criticize because evrything happens due to the will of Krishna? If so, where does free will fit into your scheme of things? If so, what is the need to criticize Advaita in the first place? Did it also not happen due to the will of Krishna? And why even criticize an imposter like Sai Baba? Is he also not acting as per the will of Krishna? Why at all try to spread Krishna Consciousness? If it is Krishna's will, won't it happen anyway? Coming to the second part of your post, if someone acts out of ignorance, then can he be revered as a guru? Do ignorance and transcendental liberation go hand in hand?

I didn't understand as to what you wanted to convey through the above paragraph. I will be very thankful, if you can rephrase it. If you think that I am belittling some ISKCON or GV sannyasi, you are wrong. I myself try to follow ISKCON teachings. I am only pointing out that some of them commit terrible mistakes by abusing Adi Sankara. I don't pretend that everyone in saffron robe is a saint. I have seen that some of them are crazy after money, power and are political. I work as an ERP consultant, but even in my corporate life I don't manipulate, thanks to SP's teachings. So, I have nothing but utter contempt for the so called sannyasis who are manipulative frauds. I don't surrender my rational thinking. If I see someone to be abusing a great acarya like Adi Sankara, I won't keep quiet, in the fear of committing Vaishnava aparadh. I think that to keep quiet when somebody commits a grave aparadh like abusing Adi Sankara or Advaita, is the real Vaishnava aparadh. I don't think that anyone except Krishna is perfect. So, a few flaws in the philosophy doesn't bring it down in my eyes. The flaws can be corrected and the philosophy can go on. So, even if SP spoke harsh words against Adi Sankara, I don't hesitate to say that it was wrong. That flaw apart, in my opinion, SPs philosophy is dear to my heart.

Theist: As to sastra, I for sure wouldn't know.Does shastra even cover such details?Or is that left to guru to set for his disciples according to time place and circumstance as he sees fit? Vedas do have erotic verses and I haven't come across any prescription against sex. We have had many treatises on Kama shastras, which are engraved on every ancient temple of India. I am unaware of any acarya outside of GV, who even suggested that grahasthas can't enjoy sex. If anything, there are many references in puranas where the rshis and their wives enjoyed sex. I don't know which shastras prescribe enjoyment of sex, but I believe some certainly do. I have a basis for my belief. In India, traditionally marriages are arranged by matching horoscopes. The horoscopes of the groom and the bride are compared on 10 categories of parameters. One of them is sexual compatibility. Horoscopes are evaluated based on strict rules, which have their basis in shastras. Someone with astrology background can explain better. So, if GV acaryas prescribe a very strict abstination from sex, it needs to be supported by shastric evidence. Also, one should explain as to why no great acarya, be it Adi Sankara or Sri Ramanuja, ever advocated that way. You may be right that the guru can impart teachings to his disciples as per time place and circumstances. But, even those teachings need to have a shastric basis. They cannot depart from the tradition. Of course, I understand that we have to transcend sex for attaining spiritual bliss. Perhaps, that is what SP was driving at. But such teachings cannot be given as a standard in public lectures, often driving misconceptions about sex in the minds of youngsters. Barring a few who take to sannyasa, most will be grahasthas and enjoy sex. I am 32 and have been married for 7 years. I can bet that intimate sex strengthens marriage. I came into contact with ISKCON after I was married. I am glad about it, every time I see some youngster who carries terrible ideas of and attitude towards sex, after he gets brainwashed by ISKCON sannyasis and speakers. I cannot but wonder as to why so many ISKCON marriages have failed, while the traditional Indian marriages [which encourage enjoying sex] hardly fail. Is it because, ISKCON's stance on sex and marriage are unnatural? I am curious about Sankara's teachings and maybe you will help me here. What did he have to say about sex.I have heard that sannyasins from that school are very strict about not even accidently touching women.And some will even take full bath if it occurs. Perhaps Shvu can answer this better, but I will try. I have visited Kanchi Sankara mutt many a time since childhood. They never ask grahasthas to abstain from sex. In fact, they don't even speak of that. Abstinence is only for Brahmacaris and sannyasis. Their sannyasis are handpicked. They don't have ISKCON style mass initiations [and "falldowns"]. The ones who are initiated by Kanchi mutt are spiritually very advanced even at a tender age. They also invariably hail from families that are very pious, orthodox and very spiritual. Those sannyasis don't differentiate between men and women. They don't touch anyone. The only special restriction for women I can think of is that is she if a widow then she should have her head tonsured if she wants to appear in front of the sannyasi. Then we should also remember that those sannyasis observe strict penance. They don't stay in Hilton. They don't fly first class. They take just 3 mouthful of rice, once a day. They never advocate unnatural rules for grahasthas. Here is a link to the thoughts of the former seer of Kanchi Sankara mutt, H H Swami Chandrasekharendra Saraswati. You may gain a lot of insight: http://kamakoti.org Please click on Hindu dharma and read the chapters. Please don't mistake that I am bringing in mayavada thinking. As I told earlier, the only teachings I try to follow are those of SP. The only books I have read are those of SP. But, opening our minds to reality will help us not to commit offenses like abusing Adi Sankara and Advaita, as most of ISKCON and GV sannyasis do. We will also realize that there are sannyasis in other schools who are no less than SP himself. We will also realize that most of the so-called sannyasis of ISKCON and GV will be ineligible to occupy a similar position in a place like Kanchi Sankara mutt.

Prabhuji, I know that your post was meant for Jijaji, but I wanted to respond to this part quoted above. If we are offended when somebody points out that Caitanya Mahaprabhu was initiated by an Advaita acharya [though I regard that as a valid question], don't you think that the followers of Advaita philosophy and Hindus in general will be very offended when even ISKCON sannyasis compare Adi Sankara's philosophy of Advaita to yellow stool? Don't you think that a lot of followers of Advaita philosophy will be offended when many ISKCON sannyasis, despite their limited knowledge of Advaita, condemn that philosophy day in and day out? Don't you think that a lot of Hindus in general will be very offended when some GV sannyasi declares that Parvati is none but a mere servant of Krishna? Don't you think that a lot of Hindus will feel offended when ISKCON speakers time and again declare that Shiva is just a demi-God? To be very honest, I have not seen even one condescending remark about other traditions in the many writings of Swami Chandrasekharendra Saraswati, the former pontiff of Kanchi Sankara mutt. That makes me wonder as to what makes the sannyasis of ISKCON more qualified than that great seer that they can abuse even Adi Sankara and Advaita. If we make sweeping and childish generalizations about other schools of philosophies, then we should be prepared for a sharp response from knowledgeable practitioners of those schools. Just imagine how often we have been told in ISKCON and GV that Adi Sankara's Advaita was a stop-gap arrangement that was meant to counter Buddhism and that was meant to be brushed aside by Sri Ramanuja. Did anyone ever quote any shastric evidence for such a claim? Did we ever question as to why Adi Sankara created disciplic succession, if that were really the case? I have seen my father, a devout follower of Lord Narayana, getting repulsed when ISKCON sannyasis make such uninformed and biased remarks about Adi Sankara and Advaita. I am not surprised that a follower of Advaita is offended.

Thanks for the nice post. I have also come across very erotic verses in the 10th mandala of Rk veda. What is Adi Sankara's Bhasya on this verse [18.66]? Transcend, yes. Renounce, no. Also, can everybody transcend? And does every other sampradaya impose such restrictions as GV does? More than all, I would like to know the shastric basis. Did the rshis who enjoyed sex with their wives use them as toys? Was Apala used as a toy by her husband? When the great Andal expresses her lust for Lord Vishnu, was she not being transcendental? Is sexual attraction between a man and his wife the anti-thesis of true affection and love? Is it really an impediment to spiritual advance that it has to be artificially repressed? I would really appreciate some shastric references. Agreed. Whether we renounce artificially or not, if we are truly surrendered, He will carry us. On the other hand, despite artificial suppressions, if we lack surrender, He will just say You have got a long way to go baby. So do I. Is there anything unholy about sex between a man and his wife? Very much, yes. But does it not have to be based on shastras? Please correct me if I am wrong. Even Guru pramana is valid only if it has shastric basis. Which means that we cannot have rules and restrictions dished out to all and sundry [especially impressionable young men], as is done often. Specific restrictions should be given to initiated disciples in secrecy, based their levels while the general audience [mostly grahasthas] should get a discourse that applies to them. Again that rules out aggressive preaching against sex within mariage, in public lectures and to those not initiated. Above all, we should explain as to why GV alone has this kind of extreme restrictions on sex, which even other Vaishnava traditions like Sri sampradaya and Madhva sampradaya don't.

Very true. But, is it possible for someone who is so addicted to earning a US degree or US dollars, to give up sex? Aren't Kamini and Pratishta asha most difficult to overcome even as per Srimad Bhagavatam? Transcending sense enjoyment and experiencing spiritual bliss is possible - not for all, but for a few. The majority still needs sense enjoyment within rules. Isn't that why we have Grahastha asrama? How come all the great rshis of the past enjoyed sex to their heart's content before retiring into aranyas? Here the question is: Are the rules prescribed in ISKCON having any shastric basis? And how come no other acharya before GV never forbade sex? Could it be that GV stance on sex is more an outcome of Muslim influence?

I have often come across unqualified attacks on Adi Sankara and Advaita from many speakers in ISKCON. I will quote one such without naming the guru. A disciple asked: Which of the 2 is better, Advaita or atheism? The response was: Which of the 2 is better, yellow stool or brown stool? I found this to be highly repulsive. Is anyone qualified to deal with Adi Sankara in such a condescending and obnoxious manner? We can always criticize another philosophy in a knowledgeable way, but this is not one such. Now don't misconstrue that I am anti-ISKCON. It is the teachings of Srila Prabhupad that appeals most to me. Yet, we need not be hesitant of pointing out something that is wrong. May be SP was very critical of Advaita as it was most popular in the USA then. Knowledgeable devotees can enlighten me here.

I have written on this before. While every school has looked at sense enjoyment as an obstacle to ultimate realization, this takes extreme forms in Gaudiya Vaishnavism. If we take sex for example, Srila Prabhupad restricts even Grahasthas to having sex only once a month and that to for begetting religious children. I am unaware if this has any shastric basis. If we look at most ancient books, including the ones in Tamil, they place no such restriction. On the contrary, books like Thirumanthiram do offer tantric insights into sex. If we look at any ancient temple, we do find explicit depictions of sexual acts. Before GV, no acarya, be it Sri Ramanuja or Adi Sankara, put such restrictions on sex. This has often made me wonder why such extreme restrictions are found in GV. I am yet to get a convincing answer for this. My understanding is that, in Sanatana dharma, there no such thing as giving up sense enjoyment. You just transcend that. Can you really transcend by artificial renunciation? Artificial renunciation, not only leads to fanaticism, but in most cases you fall down more miserably. What is the point in pretending to have given up sex, when you ultimately end up marrying somebody's ex-wife whom you used to address mataji? Yet, every ISKCON speaker will urge impressionable young men to renounce sex. I find that terrible. I have come across many 20+ boys, who have pathetic conceptions of sex. I have also wondered as to why the same speaker never urged the young man to give up his job. Is a job that pays $8000 a month less addictive than sex? Is there any shastric injunction against sex enjoyment between a man and his wife?

Very true that Adi Sankara sang the glories of Lord Govinda. But do Advaita acharyas accept that Bhaja Govindam was his final verdict? If I am correct, Advaita acharyas regard Bhaja Govindam as one of the less significant compositions of Adi Sankara. His Bhashyams are the most important. Further Adi Sankara also established Panca upasana worship and even established 4 mutts. If indeed he wanted his philosophy to be temporary, why will he do all this?

I would agree with this. Even if one wants to critize Advaita, one has to study Advaita very systematically. One has to read all the Bhashyams of Adi Sankara and also Gaudapada and Mandana Mishra. Sweeping generalizations often prove to be wrong. I agree. One has to understand Bhaja Govindam in relation to Adi Sankara's gradation of Saguna and Nirguna Brahman worship. If we do that, we will see how seamlessly it is integrated. I have read some of the writings of Kanchi Paramacharya and nowhere he talks of ourselves becoming God. He praises and advocates worshipping Narayana throughout. True. We follow whatever our acharya gives us. I may disagree on this alone. This can lead to stereotyping as seen among Gaudiya Vaishnavas. I think even to criticize, we should be knowledgeable of other systems. Of course, we can very well choose not to criticize Advaita at all, and just sing the glories of Lord Krishna as Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Prabhupad taught us. Often times I am alarmed that speakers of ISKCON cannot go through one lecture without an attack on Mayavadis or without making a sweeping generalization about Advaita.

I agree with Avinashji. If we want to learn Advaita philosophy, the best way to go about is by learning from a practising Advaitist. Often times, we tend to form very simplified notions of Advaita. Most acharyas have attacked other schools of thoughts. If we read the poetry of Saivites like Tirumular (Tamil) we do find that he too attacks Vaishnavism indirectly. My take is that every acharya gives a path custom-designed for his disciple. Perhaps, when he criticices other schools, he is ensuring that the disciple doesn't lose focus. Over time over zealous devotees turn this into fanatical proportion.

Thank you gHari prabhu, Tarun prabhu and Avinash prabhu for your wonderful responses. Kindly also let me know from Vishnu Purana. Hello Shvu, welcome back. Had been to India or something? You weren't seen for a while.

How does Lord Krishna end his life after ruling Dwaraka? Can someone point me to references in Srimad Bhagavatam? Is there any mention about this in Vishnu Purana?

Can you please post the complete url? Thanks.

That is a good question. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer.

Dear Avinash prabhu, Translations and verses are in that edition, but a friend of mine has borrowed my Gita press VR. I have no access to it for the next few weeks. Sorry for not being clear. Could you kindly transliterate and translate [if possible word by word] for me?

Krsnacandra dasa Prabhu, You are correct. Often, being in a place without many western devotees is a learning experience in itself, though initially it requires flexibility. In fact, if Luigi is thinking of living down south in a place like Sri Rangam or Madras, perhaps learning Hindi is also not needed. He can do well with English. I was suggesting a place with some western devotees only to avoid initial culture shock. When you live in the USA, you are accustomed to many things like wearing shoes at home, using toilet rolls, using left hand for eating, self-serving while eating etc., which are often forbidden in an orthodox Indian household. So, I thought that some association with western devotees will help.

Dear Luigee, What Dasa Prabhu has said is very correct. That way you can get acclimatised. Perhaps, you can take a 6 month visa and go to Mayapur or Vrindavan and stay in ISKCON guesthouse. You can also spend those 6 months travelling across the country visiting the many holy places. That way you will have some idea as to where you want to live ultimately. There are over 100 Vaishnava temples alone that are called divya shetras. They are scatterd all over from the Himalayas to Tamilnadu. In addition there are also many holy places dedicated to Lord Shiva. So, a travel is a very rewarding exerience. There are many ISKCON devotees from the USA who travel regularly that way. I understand that you live in the SF bay area. If so, I can introduce you to some western devotee with whom you can talk face to face.

Dear Luigee, Since you mentioned that your quest is partly spiritual, a nice way of getting a 5 year visa will be by joining a course in Sanskrit. This helps you learn the language in which many Hindu treatises are written. I think the government of India grants 5 year visa to those who want to learn through some religious organisations as well and ISKCON is one of them. Some of the prominent places in India which you can think of from a spiritual/learning perspective are: Kashi [benaras], Vrindavan, Rshikesh, Mayapur, Kanchipuram, Srirangam, Tirupati etc..

That is a very catchy name! Thread is a sign of Brahminical initiation. It comes in sets of 3. When you are initiated you were one set. After entering grahastha ashrama (marriage), you wear 2 sets and so on.

Hari Bol, The ideal person who can guide you is Shri. J N Das, a young American who has chosen India as his home and serves Krishna. He is the moderator of this forum and you can email him. I am from Chennai, India, now in the USA and I can say a few things. Even major cities in India are inexpensive. So, with a little bit of savings in US $ you can live comfortably there. Infrastructure may be of initial concern to you, as will be civic hygiene and pollution, but you get used to them. I assume that your prime attraction is spiritual pursuit and the temples there. If so, you won't be disappointed at all. First talk to a knowledgeable person like J N Das, so you are fully informed. India has very good hospitals and a vast English speaking population. Also, transportation is very cheap. People are friendly, though you are likely to be cheated by cab drivers. So, your first impression after getting off the plane won't be pleasant. The customs are also corrupt. The climate can get hotter in summer. North has 3 seasons - summer, winter, monsoon. South has 2 seasons - summer, monsoon, but is very humid. Normally, you get a 5 year visa, if you are going there for religious reasons. I think you should state that you are going to study scriptures. I don't know if you can become an Indian citizen, just by falling in love with India. Sure you can, if you fall in love with an Indian girl. But, now India is offering dual citizenship to India born American citizens. If the USA responds, which is likely, Americans too may be able to get dual Indian citizenship in the near future. Time is a bit relative in India, so near future means about 10 years. hope that helps.

Could someone kindly transliterate the following 2 verses from yajur veda? 2.1.2 and 2.1.6 I will also be very grateful, if you can post a word by word translation.

Can some body kindly transliterate the following verses from Valmiki Ramayana? Aranya kanda: 7:15-22 & 43:11-18 Kishkinda kanda: 17:36-40 Ayodhya kanda: 51:67-68, 84:10, 103:29-30 Could you kindly also provide a word by word translation? I am having my copy of Gita press Ramayana with me now, so any help is appreciated.

If I remember correctly, Prophet Mohammad had married Abu Sufyan's daughter in 628 CE. And 2 years later Meccans rebelled and were led by Abu Sufyan. But, he surrendered and got an amnesty.

Most scientists would reply in the negative. Especially if they are from India, where we have been systematically trained over decades to discount anything Indian. But, opinion espoused by scientists shouldn't discourage us from pursuing facts. Had Einstein postulated that time-space continuum is a dimension in the 19th century, the chances are he might have been ridiculed. The most common objections to astrology are: One, astrology implies that planetary movements have impact on individual lives. Modern research shows that planets cannot influence individuals. Two, astrology claims to predict the future events. Again there is no empirical way it can be done. From the perspective of modern science, these objections are valid. Yet, this throws open a few more questions: Does modern science describe reality in its entirety on the basis of empiricism and reductionism? The answer is a clear no, as every quantum mechanical postulate has to be buffered with correction factors to justify them. And most theories are based on very esoteric assumptions which haven't been proven. A case in point would be black-holes, worm-holes and white-holes. And we understand very little about what constitutes inter-stellar space or how this universe evolved (if at all it evolved). So, to discount astrology on the basis of current advancements and understanding in modern science would not be valid. Also, most of us have experienced that even a mediocre astroger can make very detailed and fairly accurate prediction of future events. And with good astrologers, the level of accuracy increases. This begs a question. How can a stranger predict events to come in someone's life? Even if he can predict one event to a fair detail and accuracy, there has to be a method behind it. How much the practitioner has mastered the method is specific to the individual. So, this gives rise to 2 possibilities, both hypothetical: One, there is a science behind astrology, but it is of a higher level of abstraction. But the calculations themselves are made with reference to planets which are at best reference co-ordinates. Two, the science of astrology has consciousness as its central theme. And vedic science recognizes that every entity, including planets, have consciousness. This view is shared by Dutch philosophers like Spinoza too. And some Physicists like Einstein and Wigner share that as well. So, the planetary effect on an individual's life is indeed an interplay of the consciousness of the individual and the planet. Consciousness is yet to be recognized as part of modern science. Nobel laureate Eugene Wigner feels that sans consciousness our efforts at building a Grand Unified Theory will come to a naught. At this juncture, let us step aside and look at astrology from a quantum-mechanical perspective. From the QM point of view, the concept of linear time is meaningless. Hence, our normal understanding of past, present and future are rendered meaningless in QM. There are just 3 things - Events, Observer and the Interaction between them. As for events, they don't occur; they exist. The observer perceives them when he is located at the right co-ordinates from where he can interact with those events. So, for the purpose of understanding, let us depict time as an axis. If we assume that the observer is located at (0,0) co-ordinate, everything to the left of (0,0) co-ordinate will be the past; everything at (0,0) co-ordinate will be the present; everything to the right of (0,0) co-ordinate will be the future. The observer can perceive and interact with the events of the present. He remembers events of the past with which he has interacted. But, he doesn't know what events lie in the future, i.e., to his right. For some reason unknown to us, he can move only from left to right at a defined velocity. So, he perceives future events whenever he reaches the co-ordinates at which they exist. Now, let us hypothesize that astrolgy is a science that has a method to shift the co-ordinates at will either to the right or left. That means an astrologer trained in that method can perceive the events that exist in the past or future. But, he cannot interact with that. Perhaps this could be understood with an analogy. Let us say it is pitch dark and you are looking at your car which is parked 100 metres from you. Obviously, you can't read the number plate on the car. But, you have a torch light and project a beam at the car, then you can read the number plate, though you cannot touch it. So, when an astrologer shifts the co-ordinates to perceive a future or a past event, it is like flashing a beam of light at a distant object to perceive it. That brings up another interesting question. How do we account for time travel? Is it the same as astrology? Well, time travel is documented in vedic scriptures. Many modern researchers have also documented cases. Well, if we were to continue the analogy, then time travel is in part distinct from astrology. An observer may use astrolgy to perceive a future event, i.e., he flashes a beam of light at it. But if he were to interact with that event, he has to undertake time-travel. That he he has to travel in some form to the co-ordinate where the evnt is located. Since we know that QM limits us from doing so with our gross body, this again brings up the relevance of Consciousness and subtle body employed to do this.