suchandra

Of course the same problem we have with this lineage of creative thinkers that they never explicate: how are the fallen souls "fallen" in the first time, if they did not fall from somewhere, please explain, where did they fall from? What caused the fall? If they did not fall, but merely came along here in the material world, then that is more or less the same old Christian approximation. We just appear here, no reason is given. And as Christians add, you cannot ask this question. Who will say, bravos, that's the knowledge we were waiting for?

It's indeed a mad age we're presently living in, instead of realizing that we're not this body, modern science discovered how to plastinate bodies and preserve bodies to become "immortal". To point out what? The soul has left the body but they make global exhibitions on "bodyworlds" and people pay to see this. Bodyworlds exhibition, Centre De Science, Montreal: http://www.centredessciencesdemontreal.com/BW2/fr/ http://www.centredessciencesdemontreal.com/BW2/fr/images/wallpaper/LeMondeducorps2_1024x768.jpg http://www.centredessciencesdemontreal.com/BW2/en/multimedia/galerie.html

Skype BG discussion <!-- end .post-top --> <!-- the main section of the post goes here --> By Partha-sarathi dasa Dear Devotees, Please accept my obeisance’s. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krsna, our Bhagavad-Gita discussions will start Sat, 9 Feb at 8 am eastern standard time. To sign up is easy, you must have a skype account, and add me. My screen name is Partha-sarathi_kks. I will need to know who will be involved by the day prior because the numbers of users on the conferance is limited. I will call all the individuals and then the nectar of BG will be discussed. Let’s help each other better understand Srila Prabhupada’s books. Looking foward to all of your association. Yours in service of Sri Guru & Gauranga, Partha-sarathi dasa

Of course the new problem we have with this same group of creative thinkers that they never explicate: how are the fallen souls "fallen" in the first time , if they did not fall from somewhere? Where did they fall from? What caused the fall? If they did not fall, but merely came along here in the material world, then that is more or less the Christian approximation. We just appear here, no reason is given. Balavidya das, Feb 3 2008: So now we can understand why this "Goloka-envy-fall-theory" is completely demoniac: It deliberately, paints a picture of "Not-Perfection" for the jiva in Goloka. It paints Goloka as a place of envy and discord. It refutes all Vedas. It suggests that the relationship between the Lord and His devotees is subject to tribulation and subject to sharp, disastrous change. full article

Rather too much abridged, since the most important things are missing, e.g. the Holy Bible doesn't explain that the soul is immortal. There're of course folks even Vaishnavas who say that this is stated in the Bible, but they are wrong. Some speculations of Greek philosophers were added later but in the original Bible nothing mentioned like verse below, absolutely nothing. Therefore we have after 2000 years Christianity the problem that people can't even understand that the soul can take on different bodies. They still say things like, well, yes, Hindus don't eat cows because they think that the cow could be their re-born grandmother, etc. etc. Now Christians even support Buddhism, there's no personal God, by quoting the Bible - pretty misguided people. http://www.society-buddhist-christian-studies.org/ "For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." BG 2.20

"His works and method of presentation of shastras are still inspiring thousands of people to take up the sublime method of Krsna consciousness practically in their lives." Srila Prabhupada's Presentation of Sastras by Victor Epand http://thisispk.blogspot.com/2008/02/srila-prabhupadas-presentation-of.html Sunday, February 3, 2008 Srila Prabhupada did not present Shastra as a dry academic subject to be theorized and armchair-philosophized about. Instead of giving abstruse explanations, he spoke and more importantly lived the essense of shastra. He repeatedly emphasized the point of all sastra: "You are not this body. Surrender to Krsna." Srila Prabhupada repeatedly said that by reading his books we get in touch with the previous acaryas. Indeed, his purports to the sastra draw on the realization of the previous acaryas whose commentaries Prabhupada consulted before composing his own. A special feature of Srila Prabhupada's purports, however, is that he was the first to show how the Srimad Bhagvatam's principles can be applied in practical circumstances in the human society. Also for the first time ever, he comprehensively presented Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy, replete with all subtleties and complexities, in a non-Indian language. Prabhupada's explanation of Vedic philosophy is simple, clear, and uncomplicated English is an unprecedented achievement in literary history. English is a mleccha-bhasa (language of meat eaters), but Srila Prabhupada purified it. Quoting Srila Prabhupada's purports is as authorized as quoting from the Original Sanskrit shastras. Infact, the words of the acharya are even more potent because without the acharya's explanations, ordinary people would not be able to understand the meaning of shastra. Srila prabhupada's lectures were simple, straightforward bhagavad philosophy. Prabhupada's songs are preferable to any of the dozens of styles of melodius kirtans because there is a different level of potency altogether. Srila prabhupada's presentations whether it is the songs he sung or the purports he wrote, everything was always Krishna centric and at no point were for material sensual pleasure. His intense purity and compassion for the fallen conditions souls manifest in all his work. Being a pure devotee of the lord, his words are infallible, totally correct and spoken for upliftment of all concerned. His words enter the heart of a living entity and purify it. The potency in his works is so strong that even though he has written for everyone, it seems to the reader that he is speaking personally to the individual reader and whatever he has written makes complete sense to the honest inquisitive. Srila Prabhupada's works reflected his inadvertent strong-mind and principles. There were no contradictions or interpretations. He presented the message as it is. Srila Prabhupada make Krsna and the Hare Krsna mahamantra famous all over the world even though non-devotees don't know much about him. This is due to his presentation of Shastra as a messenger. He never took credit for this great benediction that he was giving and continues to give to fallen conditioned souls through his books. The philosophy he preached through his books was sound in theory and practically applicable under all circumstances. Srila Prabhupada saw nothing as different from Krsna. He saw Krsna everywhere and in everything, and everything in Krsna. Whatever he wrote is a living example or rather an extention of this premise that he lived by. He wanted to engage everything and everybody in Krsna's service. His works and method of presentation of shastras are still inspiring thousands of people to take up the sublime method of Krsna consciousness practically in their lives. His objective of developing a Krsna conscious movement, which is not limited to study of literature, however is built on how he presented the message of Krsna and Lord Chaitanya throughout the world. About the Author Victor Epand is an expert consultant at http://www.VedicBooks.info/. VedicBooks.info offers Vedic books and Vaisnava literatures from many authorized sources.

Microsoft's New "Segoe UI" Font Dear Maharajas and Prabhus, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki<wbr>/Segoe_UI , this new font comes with Microsoft Vista and MS Word 2007. It's the first "off the shelf" font that I've seen that displays all of the 31 standard ISKCON diacritic characters correctly, including "LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH CHANDRABINDU." Maybe you have it on your computer. One easy way to tell is to simply go to http://llbest.com/ListAvailabl<wbr>eFonts.htm , but that particular web page only works with IE6 or later. Unless you know for sure that you don't have it installed, please try the following: 1. Go to http://pratyatosa.com/Sanskrit<wbr>DiacriticTextConversion.htm . 2. Select "3. Segoe UI." 3. Click "Sample text." 4. If you don't have Segoe UI installed, then you will see a bunch of graphics characters, in which case there's no use going any further. 5. Click "Compress." 6. Click "Zoom in" twice. 7.You should see that all 31 standard ISKCON diacritic characters are displayed correctly using IE, and 30 out of 31 using Firefox. 8. Click "Bold." 9. Click "Italic." 10. Click "Bold" again. 11. If you are using IE, you will see that the last character in the list ("LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH CHANDRABINDU") is always displayed perfectly! Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

Analysis below about "Opportunities To Actually Learn Something In America's Elementary Classrooms", was published by The National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. If people would take care of spiritual education in the same way they take care about material education they surely would raise, "first-class man instead of fourth-class men": "We want to raise first-class man. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God, these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea, first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time? “Crime, Why and What to Do?” That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula." Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/750705rc.chi.htm Opportunities to Learn in America's Elementary Classrooms http://secc.rti.org/publications.cfm Analysis of elementary school dassrooms in the United States returns a discouraging report on the quality of students' experiences. Robert C. Pianta, Jay Belsky, Renate Houts, Fred Morrison,The National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD) Early Child Care Research Networks America's students are tested regularly, and the results serve as justification for closing schools, firing principals, awarding merits, and focusing professional development and curriculum reform. However, little attention is paid to measuring the opportunities to learn that teachers create in classrooms ‑ the quantity and quality of classroom instruction and relationships between teachers and students. Nearly all state certification standards for "highly qualified teachers" focus an degree Status (1, 2). However, despite evidence that teachers' instructional practices and relationships with students account for a substantial portion of the "added value" derived from attending school (3‑5), observations of classroom experiences for large samples of students and teachers are limited. The Study Here, we describe results from a study of elementary school classroom experiences for more than 1000 American children recruited at birth from 10 U.S. sites and enrolled in more than 2500 classrooms in more than 1000 elementary schools and 400 school districts. Our investigation approximates an epidemiological study of opportunities to learn in U.S. classrooms, although the Sample was not nationally representative. Of teachers observed, 90% were credentialed by their state; all had a bachelor's degree and 44% had a master's degree. These teachers meet many states' standards for highly qualified elementary schoolteachers (1). Observation of classrooms complements student test performance as a measure of quality in the educational system and can document opportunities to learn that are reflected in students' performances on tests. We observed first, third, and fifth grades. First, we coded the presence of 44 behavioral events for 80 one‑minute intervals. In a given school day, intervals were clustered into eight 10‑minute cycles of coding, in which 30‑second periods of observation alternated with 30‑second periods of recording. Next, we rated nine dimensions of the quality of the emotional and instructional climate an the basis of 20 minutes of observation, again across eight cycles during the day. We used these codes and ratings to assess opportunities to learn (6,7) Experiences in the Classroom The results for fifth grade (see chart) are similiar those for first and third grades (8, 9). In fifth grade, children spent most of their time (91.2%) working in whole-group or individual-seatwork settings. Students spent little time (7%) in small-group instruction (two to five students). In fifth grade, 37% of instruction was in literacy and 25% was in matte; in ferst and third grade, more than 50% of instruction was in litetacy and less than 10% was in math. Science and social studies activities occurred in 11 and 13% of intervals in fifth grade, respectively. The average fifth grader received five times as mach instruction in basic skills as instruction focused an problem solving or reasoning; this ratio was 10:1 in first and third grades. Teachers in fifth grade spent 17% of their time instructing students on managing materials or time. Classroom emotional and instructional climate was rated with the use of a seven-point scale, in which higher ratings were more positive (8, 9). In correlational studies, relatively higher ratings predicted gains on standardized tests of reading and math in pre-kindergarten (10), reading in first grade (3), and math in fifth grade (9). Emotional climate of classrooms was moderately positive - the mean rating over all classrooms for "teacher sensitivity" and "positive classroom climate" was about 5. Children in the class rooms we observed were often working on assignments, with "productive use of time" rated 4.9. However, quality of instructional climate received a low rating. "Richness of instructional methods," reflecting conceptually focused instruction, averaged 3.6, and "evaluative feedback" on student performance averaged 3.44. Typically, over the course of a 20-minnte period, instruction involved only one method or mode (e.g., vocabulary worksheet or watching the teacher do math problems), and teachers gave generic feedback on correctness rather than encouraging extension of student performance or discussing alternative solutions. Ratings of instructional and emotional quality in fifth grade were similar to those for first and third grades. Predicting Classroom Climate Composites reflecting our ratings of the quality of the emotional and instructional climate were examined with various teacher student, child, and family factors (table S5). Teacher credentialing was not investigated because nearly all teachers met state requirements. Larger class size was associated with less positive emotional climate. (class size ranged from 10 to 42 students.) Quality of instructional climate was higher when teachers had fewer years of teaching experience, earned higher salaries, and reported more influence on school policy and efficacy. The magnitude of these significant associations was very small, and causal direction is unknown. The total variance attributed to emotional and instructional climate accounted for less than 10% of the differences in observed quality of the classroom environments. Children with more highly educated mothers and with higher family income were more likely to be enrolled in classrooms with higher observed emotional and instructional climates. These associations with family characteristics were statistically significant but small. Consistency of a Child's Experience A child's classroom experience was not particularly consistent from first to third to fifth grade. Results were not a function of (some) children switching schools. Quality of emotional environment was modestly stable from first grade to third grade ( r = 0.17, P < 0.05) and from third grade to fifth grade (r = 0.25, P < 0.05), but corresponding across-grade analysis for quality of instructional climate did not show statistically supported correlations. We divided climate composites into terciles at each grade. Children were classified as "consistently" in high-quality classrooms, if they were enrolled in a high-tercile class in two or more grades and were never enrolled in a classroom in the lowest tercile. Students in "consistently" low-quality classrooms were enrolled in accordingly low-tercile classes and never in the highest tercile. Only 17% of children experienced classrooms with consistently high emotional climate, and 19% experienced classrooms with consistently low emotional climate. Comparable figures for instructional climate were 14 and 20%, respectively. Across all three grades, 7% of children experienced classrooms high an both instructional and emotional climate. We predicted each child's enrollment in our consistency classifications using the child's scores on standardized tests of reading and math at age 54 months, prior to school entry, and family income-to-needs ratio (using federal guidelines for poor, near poor, and not poor) as predictors. Children from nonpoor families and who scored high on achievement at 54 months were most likely to experience classrooms high in positive emotional or instructional climate throughout elementary school. Poor children were highly unlikely (only 10%) to experience classrooms with high instructional climate across multiple grades. Discussion In this multistate observational and longitudinal study of children in US. Primary-school classrooms, opportunities to learn for this sample of mostly middle-class students proved highly variable and did not appear congruent with the high performance standards expected for students or for teachers as described by most state teacher certification and licensure documents. Rather, experiences in fifth grade, although highly variable, were geared toward performance of basic reading and math skills, not problem-solving or reasoning skills or other content areas. Few opportunities were provided to learn in small groups, to improve analytical skills, or to interact extensively with teachers. This pattern of instruction appears inconsistent with aims to add depth to students' understanding, particularly in mathematics and science. Classroom dynamics were not related to teachers' degree status or experience. Teachers met credentialing standards, but their classrooms, even if emotionally positive, were mediocre in terms of quality of instructional support. Children who needed support were unlikely to receive it consistently. These results are consistent with arguments that a focus an standards-based reform and teacher credentialing may lead to instruction that is overly broad and thin. It is troubling that opportunities to learn in classrooms are unrelated to features intended to regulate such opportunities and that students most in need of highquality instruction are unlikely to experience it consistently. If metrics and regulations for high-quality teaching continue to rely an teachers' credentials or school attributes, actual opportunities to learn may not be driven to improve (2). These results confirm the need for rigorous designs that tost effects an observed instruction of specific knowledge- or skill-focused teacher training interventions. This study relied on direct observations of classrooms and used instruments that correlate with students' gains in achievement (11). Emotional and instructional support contribute to the elimination of the achievement gap in first grade (3), predict growth in children's functioning (10), and predict reading and math achievement growth and social functioning through fifth grade in our sample (12). A study in England reported a similar pattern of effects for elementary students (5). Others concur that these features of teacher-child interaction are indicative of good teaching (13, 14). Collectively, these investigations demonstrate that classroom experience can be observed reliably in large numbers of classrooms and that such observations capture a portion of the "value-added" effect of enrollment in a given classroom (4, I5). Experimental interventions that include such observations may yield results useful for improving classroom teaching and the preparation of teachers (5) by revealing the mechanisms by which classrooms influence children's development. Science and policy aimed at producing and maintaining effective teaching are needs as pressing as are curriculum reform and assessment of student performance. References and Notes 1. U.S. Department of Education, Definitions from the No Child Left Behind Act, (U.S. DOE, Washington, DC, 2002); www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/pg107. html#sec9101. 2. Educational Testing Service, Where We Stand on Teacher Quality: An Issue Paper from ETS (ETS, Princeton, NJ, 2004); http://ftp.ets.org/pub/corp/position_paper.pdf. 3. B. K. Hamre, R. C. Pianta, Child Dev. 76 949 (2005). 4. B. Nye et al., Educ. Eval. Pol. Anal. 26, 237 (2004). 5. P. Sammons et al., Variations in Teacher and Pupil Behaviors in Year 5 Classes (Institute of Education, Univ. of London, London, 2006). 6. Methods are available on Science Online. 7. Information about methods used in the NICHD Study of Early Child Care and Youth Development is available online (http://secc.rti.org/). 8. NICHD Early Child Care Research Network, Child Dev. 71, 960 (2002). 9. NICHD Early Child Care Research Network, Elem. Sch. J. 105, 305 (2005). 10. C. Howes et al., Multi-State Pre-K Study (National Center for Early Development and Learning, Univ. of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC, 2005). 11. R. C. Pianta et al., Elem. Sch. J. 102, 225 (2002). 12. NICHD Early Child Care Research Network, Child Dev. 74, 1639 (2004). 13. K. Bogner et al., Sci. Stud. Reading 6, 135 (2002). 14. J. Brophy, T. Good, in Handbook of Research on Teaching, M. Wittrock, Ed. (MacMillan, New York, 1986), pp. 328–375. 15. W. L. Sanders, J. C. Rivers, “Cumulative and residual effects of teachers on future student academic achievement” (Univ. of Tennessee Value-Added Research and Assessment Center, Knoxville, TN, 1996). 16. This research is directed by a steering committee (see supporting online material) and supported by NICHD through a cooperative agreement. Supporting Online Material www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/315/5820/ /DC1

M K Bhadrakumar served as a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service for over 29 years, with postings including India's ambassador to Uzbekistan (1995-1998) and to Turkey (1998-2001). US plays matchmaker to Pakistan, Israel M K Bhadrakumar – Asia Times January 31, 2008 Geopolitics around Pakistan are taking dramatic turns. Details are emerging of a meeting between Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak. A spin has been given that Musharraf and Barak had a "chance encounter" in a hotel lobby in Paris. It stretches credulity. Israeli media since revealed that Musharraf placed his hand on Barak's shoulder as the latter praised the Pakistani leader for his role in the "war on terror". The following day, Barak had an hour-long meeting with Musharraf at the latter's invitation. In all probability, Israel's close ally on Capitol Hill in Washington DC, the resourceful US Senator Joseph Lieberman, who visited Pakistan as a state guest in early January, put together the Musharraf-Barak meeting. Lieberman's native ingenuity is legion. Recently, the conservative Democratic Connecticut senator explained to the Jerusalem Post newspaper his unorthodox decision to endorse the Republican presidential candidate John McCain. By using a very orthodox metaphor, the one-time Democratic vice presidential nominee apparently explained: "The rabbis say in the Talmud that a lot of rabbinic law is to put a fence around the Torah so you don't get near to violating it." Pakistan's threat perceptions Both Pakistan and Israel have reason to upgrade the level of their interaction. A good clue is available from Lieberman's itinerary in Islamabad, which included two unusual appointments for a visiting US senator. Lieberman had separate meetings with Pakistani army chief General Parvez Kiani and the director general of the Strategic Planning Division (SPD) , Lieutenant General (retired) Khalid Ahmad Kidwai. Following these meetings on January 9, Lieberman paid handsome compliment to the SPD's professional capability in managing the command and control system for the security of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. "I am deeply impressed by the professionalism of the team headed by the general [Kidwai] to secure the nuclear assets of Pakistan," he said. The SPD went out of the way to give a detailed briefing to Lieberman. The Pakistani intention was clear - Lieberman would transmit the impressions of his visit to Israel. Islamabad has been visibly edgy about the orchestrated media campaign in recent weeks that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal might fall into the hands of jihadi elements. Anyone could tell from a mile that the campaign stank. Pakistan was being threatened that it was about to be stripped of its crown jewels. It was hardly justified and was manifestly an attempt at blackmail. First of all, as a BBC analyst put it in a commentary on this theater of the absurd, "Few believe Islamists could take power in Pakistan." Second, Pakistan's nuclear potential poses no more serious risks than the nuclear potentials of India or Israel or Russia or the US. Besides, Pakistan hasn't been tardy at all in constantly improving the security of its nuclear weapons. Finally, unless some superior foreign power succeeds in systematically degrading the Pakistani army, its capacity to be the custodian of the country's national security is never in doubt. But Islamabad has felt the need to factor in what has come to be known as the "Osirak contingency". In their masterly work Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Nuclear Weapons Conspiracy, authors Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark have named top-level Indian sources, who previously served in key positions in the government, as admitting that Delhi closely worked with Israel on more than one occasion over plans to attack Pakistan's nuclear installations. Of course, an apocalyptic conflagration of such a kind is simply unthinkable in today's circumstances when all three - Israel, Pakistan and India - are full nuclear powers, but like any military establishment would do, Rawalpindi, the site of the headquarters of the Pakistan armed forces, is bound to plan against a worst-case scenario. Furthermore, there is always a new angle in a future context - Israel could harbor misgivings that fissile materials out of Pakistan's nuclear facilities might find their way to Iran. Evidently, Islamabad decided it was useful to level with Israel so that misconceptions did not arise. In diplomatic parlance, Musharraf's meeting with Barak has been a timely CBM (confidence-building measure). India-Pakistan strategic parity But that is only the tip of the iceberg. It underscores the geopolitical turbulence that is steadily enveloping the South Asian region. Much of the turbulence is being commonly attributed to the concerns of the international community over radical Islam and terrorism in the region or over the safety of Pakistan's nuclear weapons or of the specter of the Pakistani state withering away into anarchy under the sheer weight of its current political difficulties. But the factors underlying the volatility go deeper than that. What is becoming apparent is that a series of maneuvers by regional powers is gradually building up in the coming period. Arguably, the heightened tensions around Pakistan are as much a symptom of these geopolitical maneuvers as of an intrinsic nature. Democracy deficit, political assassination, ruling elites, misgovernance, corruption, popular alienation, poverty and economic disparity, religious fanaticism - these are common to almost all countries of the South Asian region. Pakistan is certainly not an exception. At the epicenter of the geopolitical turbulence in the region lies the rapidly expanding strategic partnership between the United States and India. The developing US-India strategic axis is triggering a large-scale realignment among regional powers, especially involving Pakistan. As a leading commentator of the official Russian news agency put it recently, "Not without help from the great powers, India has gone so far ahead in the sphere of arms that it is pursuing its national interests from the Persian Gulf to the Malacca archipelago. Islamabad justifiably believes that the United States is ready to support India's claims to the status of a world power in exchange for its efforts to deter China and Iran ... [while] Pakistan still remains the main partner of the United States and Western Europe in the region's anti-terrorist coalition." That a Moscow commentator should have made such a sharp, pithy observation becomes extraordinary by itself. He adds, "What should Pakistan do in this situation? ... Pakistan is using its potentialities to the utmost. In the past, its nuclear potential was a major deterrent, but today it is no longer playing this role. A contribution to the change was made by the United States - its nuclear romance with India is more than obvious." Last Friday, Pakistan test-launched its medium-range Shaheen-1 rail-based solid fuel ballistic missile, which can deliver nuclear warheads at a distance of up to 700 kilometers. Indian experts say it is a modification of the Chinese M9 solid fuel tactical missile. They allege China may have helped Pakistan develop Shaheen-1 missiles. This has been Pakistan's second test of tactical missiles in the past month and a half. On December 11, it test-launched its Babur cruise missile, a land-based liquid fuel missile with a range of up to 700km. Indeed, Pakistan is strictly observing the schedule of tests it has agreed with India within the framework of a bilateral agreement, and there has been no deviation in the type or range of missiles. India is aware that Pakistan's nuclear weapons are aimed against it, but it doesn't make any ruckus about it, as that might needlessly draw international attention to the region as a "nuclear flashpoint", which it isn't. On the contrary, both India and Pakistan are equally busy developing their missile potentials and have in place bilateral agreement preventing the risk of accidents with nuclear weapons. Curiously, at times it even seems there is an almost tacit bilateral commitment between the two countries to the principle of parallel testing. But, having said that, there is no doubt that India is pulling incrementally ahead of Pakistan in regard of the missile systems' characteristics. US-India military ties India is embarking on a massive armament program in cooperation with the US. The Times of India newspaper reported on Tuesday, "After joint combat exercises to develop 'interoperability', the Indo-US military tango is now firmly waltzing into the arms purchase arena as well." India has just concluded a billion-dollar deal for the purchase of six C-130J Super Hercules aircraft from the US. Negotiations are reportedly in an advanced stage with Boeing company for a US$2 billion deal for the purchase of eight P-8i long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft with anti-submarine warfare capabilities. On the horizon, as the Indian daily put it, "The US is obviously desperate to grab a big piece of action" out of India's projected $30 billion worth arms purchases in the 2007-2012 period. Actually, there is no need for Washington to be so "desperate". Delhi is more than willing to play its designated role as a pivotal country in the US's global strategy. It has scheduled "at least five joint combat exercises" with the US for 2008. For the first time, India will also be jointly exercising with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates is scheduled to visit India on February 25-26. The American ambassador in India publicly reaffirmed on Monday that there is a "definite desire" in Washington to conclude the nuclear cooperation agreement with India on George W Bush's watch. It is symptomatic of the strategic equations shaping up in the region that Gates will be skipping Pakistan during his tour of the region. Yet, it was only last week that Gates devoted an entire press conference, lasting over an hour, to "the emergence of this fairly considerable security challenge" in Pakistan, while offering, "We [uS ] remain ready, willing and capable to assist the Pakistanis and to partner with them, to provide additional training, to conduct joint operations, should they desire to do so." From Islamabad's perspective, the "de-hyphenated" policy on the part of the US toward Pakistan and India has virtually come to mean that Washington is focusing on the Pakistani military role as an efficient, well-trained and well-equipped border militia in the tribal tracts with Afghanistan. On top of it, despite robust refusal by Islamabad, Washington is pressing hard for the deployment of US troops on Pakistani soil and for beefing up the American intelligence presence within Pakistan. On any single day, Pakistani media reflect a bitter sense of betrayal. Ahmed Quraishi, a top TV commentator, wrote recently in The News: "After 9/11, Pakistan's crucial assistance helped the United States secure a huge American footprint in Central Asia. That was a dream come true for American strategic planners. In return, Pakistan got nothing but instability, derision and broken promises. A feasible Pakistan-American cooperation in the region has to work both ways, securing the interests of both parties. Yet it never did after 9/11 despite every reason it should have." In this situation, we may expect Pakistan will begin to seek support in its relations with India from other countries with modern weapons, apart from China or the US. It may happen that Pakistan may turn to Russia for this purpose. In fact, a strong likelihood is that Pakistan-Russia relations may be getting ready for an historic makeover. The desperate US efforts to kiss and make up with Uzbekistan suggest that Washington apprehends a Russian thrust toward Afghanistan and Pakistan. Moscow will also be watching with uneasiness that India in its zest to consolidate an elevated status in the US's regional policy has shown readiness to calibrate its traditional policies with regard to Russia and Central Asia. As India gives formal shape to its contacts with NATO and openly participates in the US's missile defense program, the trajectory of US-India strategic cooperation will begin to impact on Russian interests, unless, of course, Delhi takes corrective measures, for which, however, political will becomes necessary. Washington is, in any case, resolute in steering its strategic cooperation with India precisely in such a direction that it leads to an all-round rollback of Russian influence in South Asia. All this adds up to mean that the US-India strategic partnership need not be the end of the world for Pakistan. An altogether new strategic equation may develop in the region between Russia, China and Pakistan. With the regional security environment in such a flux, Musharraf's message to Barak would have been direct: Pakistan is in no way threatening Israel's security directly or in league with a third country, and Pakistan expects Israel to reciprocate. Coming from one soldier-turned-politician to another, that is not too much to ask. Barak would have understood.

[...]By expanding Himself as Lord Śiva, the Supreme Lord is engaged when there is a need to annihilate the universe. Lord Śiva, in association with māyā, has many forms, which are generally numbered at eleven. Lord Śiva is not one of the living entities; he is, more or less, Kṛṣṇa Himself. The example of milk and yogurt is often given in this regard — yogurt is a preparation of milk, but still yogurt cannot be used as milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but he cannot act as Kṛṣṇa, nor can we derive the spiritual restoration from Lord Śiva that we derive from Kṛṣṇa. The essential difference is that Lord Śiva has a connection with material nature, but Viṣṇu or Lord Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with material nature. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.88.3) it is stated that Lord Śiva is a combination of three kinds of transformed consciousness known as vaikārika, taijasa and tāmasa.[...] source: http://vedabase.net/tlc/8/en

Lord Siva cannot be properly considered Vishnu-tattva, but He is not an ordinary ‘demigod’ either. The Vayu-Purana states that Lord Siva's abode is beyond the mundane universe: sri mahadeva lokas tu saptavaranato bahih; nityah sukhamayah satyo labhyas tat sevakottamaih "But Sri Mahadeva's (Lord Siva) planet is outside of the seven layers of matter that cover the universe. It is eternal, blissful, real and attainable by His greatest devotees." And Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes: sivaloke vaikuntha dhamni, "Siva-loka is Vaikuntha-dhama."

Bhagavad-Gita, Chapter 15 Text 1, The Yoga of the Supreme Person TRANSLATION The Blessed Lord said: There is a banyan tree which has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is the knower of the Vedas. PURPORT After the discussion of the importance of bhakti-yoga, one may question, "What about the Vedas?" It is explained in this chapter that the purpose of Vedic study is to understand Krsna. Therefore one who is in Krsna consciousness, who is engaged in devotional service, already knows the Vedas. Banyan Tree The entanglement of this material world is compared here to a banyan tree. For one who is engaged in fruitive activities, there is no end to the banyan tree. He wanders from one branch to another, to another, to another. The tree of this material world has no end, and for one who is attached to this tree, there is no possibility of liberation. The Vedic hymns, meant for elevating oneself, are called the leaves of this tree. This tree's roots grow upward because they begin from where Brahma is located, the topmost planet of this universe. If one can understand this indestructible tree of illusion, then one can get out of it. This process of extrication should be understood. In the previous chapters it has been explained that there are many processes by which to get out of the material entanglement. And, up to the Thirteenth Chapter, we have seen that devotional service to the Supreme Lord is the best way. Now, the basic principle of devotional service is detachment from material activities and attachment to the transcendental service of the Lord. The process of breaking attachment to the material world is discussed in the beginning of this chapter. The root of this material existence grows upward. This means that it begins from the total material substance, from the topmost planet of the universe. From there, the whole universe is expanded, with so many branches, representing the various planetary systems. The fruits represent the results of the living entities' activities, namely, religion, economic development, sense gratification and liberation. Now, there is no ready experience in this world of a tree situated with its branches down and its roots upward, but there is such a thing. That tree can be found beside a reservoir of water. We can see that the trees on the bank reflect upon the water with their branches down and roots up. In other words, the tree of this material world is only a reflection of the real tree of the spiritual world. This reflection of the spiritual world is situated on desire, just as the tree's reflection is situated on water. Desire is the cause of things being situated in this reflected material light. One who wants to get out of this material existence must know this tree thoroughly through analytical study. Then he can cut off his relationship with it. This tree, being the reflection of the real tree, is an exact replica. Everything is there in the spiritual world. The impersonalists take Brahma to be the root of this material tree, and from the root, according to sankhya philosophy, come prakrti, purusa, then the three gunas, then the five gross elements (panca-mahabhuta), then the ten senses (dasendriya), mind, etc. In this way they divide up the whole material world. If Brahma is the center of all manifestations, then this material world is a manifestation of the center by 180 degrees, and the other 180 degrees constitute the spiritual world. The material world is the perverted reflection, so the spiritual world must have the same variegatedness, but in reality. The prakrti is the external energy of the Supreme Lord, and the purusa is the Supreme Lord Himself, and that is explained in Bhagavad-gita. Since this manifestation is material, it is temporary. A reflection is temporary, for it is sometimes seen and sometimes not seen. But the origin from whence the reflection is reflected is eternal. The material reflection of the real tree has to be cut off. When it is said that a person knows the Vedas, it is assumed that he knows how to cut off attachment to this material world. If one knows that process, he actually knows the Vedas. One who is attracted by the ritualistic formulas of the Vedas is attracted by the beautiful green leaves of the tree. He does not exactly know the purpose of the Vedas. The purpose of the Vedas, as disclosed by the Personality of Godhead Himself, is to cut down this reflected tree and attain the real tree of the spiritual world.

At 16108.com it says, "there are 14 Manus in one day of Brahma. Each Manu lives for about 311 million years. Currently we are in the age of Vaivasvata Manu. Manus, such a Svayambhuva Manu, are the progenitors of mankind. The Manus are also entrusted by Lord Sri Krishna directly to impart the laws of dharma, the rules and regulations of how society should be governed." At dandavats.com it says, "there are 1000 Treta-yugas in one day of Brahma, and it is calculated that we are presently in the 28th cycle of the four yugas (called divya-yugas, which is a cycle of the four yugas, Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga, Dvapara-yuga, and then Kali-yuga) of Vaivasvata Manu, who is the seventh Manu in the series of 14 Manu rulers who exist in one kalpa or day of Brahma. Each Manu is considered to live for 71 such divya-yuga cycles. So, without getting too complicated about things, from the 24th Treta-yuga to the present age of this Kali-yuga, there is obviously a difference of millions of years when Lord Rama manifested here on earth. Of course, few people may believe this unless they are already familiar with the vast lengths of time that the Vedic literature deals with." At http://indiaheritage.org/rendez/article1.htm#age it says, Age of the Universe <center> <table border="1" bordercolor="#dedebe" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="-" height="1" width="751"><tbody><tr> <td align="left" height="1" valign="top" width="412"> Portion of Brahma’s day elapsed so far (till say, 2000 A.D.) consists of </td> <td align="left" height="21" valign="top" width="339"> Duration Table </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" height="215" valign="top" width="412"> 6 manvantara-twilights (6 x 4l ) 6 manvantaras completed (6 x71 x10l ) 1 manvantara-twilight before the 7th (4 l ) 27 maha-yugas past in this manvantara (27 x 10l ) elapsed yugas in this maha-yuga ((4 + 3 + 2) l ) 5102 years in kali-yuga This adds up to 4567 l + 5102 = 1,972,949,102 human years This is the present (as of 2000A.D.) age of the universe in this day of Brahma </td> <td align="left" height="0" valign="top" width="339">Duration of Kali-yuga (l ) = 432,000 (human years) Duration of Dvapara-yuga (2l ) Duration of Treta-yuga (3l ) Duration of Satya-yuga (4l ) Duration of maha-yuga: (l + 2 l + 3 l + 4l ) = 10l Duration of manvantara: 71 x 10l Duration of one manvantra- twilight : 4l <small>(one before every manvantara) </small></td> </tr> </tbody></table> </center> Duration of Brahma’s day One day of Brahma is of duration equivalent to 1000 mahayugas. His night is equally long. At the beginning of every day creation starts. At the end of the day all that was created merge in the Absolute and Brahma ‘sleeps’ as it were. 360 such days and nights make one year of Brahma. According to the Puranas, He has spent 50 years like this and this day is the first day in his fifty-first year! One day of Brahma = 14 manvantaras + 15 manvantara twilights (because there is an extra manvantara - twilight at the end of all the 14 manvantaras) = 14 x 71 mahayugas + 15 x 4 l = 994 mahayugas + 60 l = 994 mahayugas + 6 mahayugas = 1000 mahayugas = 1000 x10 l = 4,320,000,000 human years. <center> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="400"> <tbody><tr> <td>One ‘second’ of Brahma = 4,320,000,000 / 12x60x60 = 100,000 human years</td> <td>‘Back to the future’ Story</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </center> Names of the remaining seven (future) manvantaras of this day of Brahma <center> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="705"> <tbody><tr> <td width="279"> 8 Saavarni -------------------> 9 Daksha-saavarni 10 Brahma-saavarni 11 Dharma-saavarni 12 Rudra-saavarni 13 Deva-saavarni 14 Indra-saavarniafter which cosmic night will follow </td> <td align="left" valign="top" width="426">The next Manu (i.e., the eighth) will be Saavarni. This promise was made by Mother Goddess to one King Suratha during the second Manvantara. To him (and another) the triple story of Mother Goddess is narrated in the Devi-bhagavatam ( also Chandi or Durg A-saptasati ). The story begins from a mythological event that happened after the end of the last kalpa (= day of Brahma) and ends up by forecasting the feats of Mother Goddess that are yet to happen in this kalpa. One such is the prediction that Suratha will be born as Manu Saavarni.</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </center> BACK TO THE FUTURE (Source: Srimad-Bhagavatam, IX - 3) In the mid-satya-yuga of the first maha-yuga of the present manvantara i.e., around 115 million years ago there lived a King of the Solar dynasty, by name Kakudmi, and his beautiful daughter Revati. Not trusting the astrologers of his time, yet believing in the maxim ‘marriages are made in heaven’ Kakudmi took his daughter to the celestial world of Brahma the Creator (Note: in every satya-yuga such journeys are supposed to be possible) in order to ask the Creator Himself as to who would be the right marital match for his daughter. Kakudmi had somebody in his own mind. But Lord Brahma was available to him only after a twenty minutes or so of waiting time (by the standards of that world). When Kakudmi finally had the opportunity to ask Brahma his question, Brahma laughed and said: My dear Kakudmi, from the time you came here your earthly world has passed through 27 maha-yugas and so none of whom you have in mind or their descendents are alive now. Right now people are enjoying the avatara (=descent) of Lord Krishna on the Earth. Go back and marry off your daughter to Balarama, the elder brother of Krishna’. Thus it was that Kakudmi and Revati travelled ‘back to their future’ -- from the 1st mahayuga to the 27th -- and Revati was married to Balarama. Note: 1 mahayuga = 43.2 ‘seconds’ for Brahma. THE HINDU CONCEPT OF TIME According to Hindu religion and cosmology the flow of Time is eternal. Creation and Dissolution are only two events in a long cyclic succession of Cosmic events. There is no beginning in the past and there is no end to the future. Creation is a manifestation in concrete terms of the Absolute. Dissolution is when all the created universe merges in the Absolute. And that is when the period of non-manifestation begins. The periods of manifestation and of non-manifestation alternate. These are the days and nights of Brahma. Brahma Himself is a manifestation of the Absolute. He has a life of 100 years in His time. Between one kalpa (technical name for Brahma’s day) and the next, the only thing that survive are, Brahma himself (who has to be ‘brought back to memory’, by the Absolute, after his ‘sleep’ !), the vedas in their latent form and the collected aggregate of vaasanaas (imprints of actions and thoughts) of all individual souls. Just as each kalpa is followed by another kalpa with an intervening Cosmic Night, so also one Brahma is followed by another Brahma. Copyright Ó V. Krishnamurthy According to the Puranas, Lord Brahma has spent 50 years like this and this day is the first day in his fifty-first year!

Nice post by Nava Gauranga Prabhu explaining his spiritual emergence.http://nitaai.net/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=2509#p2509 "Dear Nava Gauranga Prabhu, did you also practiced some form of hatha or astanga yoga, or you refer in your post exclusively to Naam Bhakti Yoga?" posted by Igor posted 2008-02-01 21:16:44 Dear Igor thx for your question. I do not practice Hatha Yoga, Ashtanga or Pranayama (as such). Simply Naam Bhakti Yoga and Krsna consciousness. There are several key things that awoke spontaneously over a period of time, and some even years before I deepened Naam Yoga. A deeper sense of Krsna consciousness arose in me purely by Naam. Srila BR Sridhara Dev Goswami has said, ''with higher vision we will see the environment as nurturing'. This has been my meditation for some years. Especially due to my background of chronic illness. But prior to my deeper practice of Krsna consciousness I had began to awaken to subtle phenomena dealing with prana and the subtle mind. http://www.spiritualemergence.org.au/ Initially this subtle phenomena was very disturbing but with Krsna consciousness and increasing awareness of love the so-called crisis awoke into a healthy emergence. Which is so fragile. Please see the above website. So infact the difference between psychotic states and healthy spiritual emergence and crisis is very fine. So it is very important for me to follow the process of Bhakti Yoga (please see my first response to Truth Seeker). Without Bhakti Yoga the awakening I have encountered would be very difficult. My organism seems to awaken rapidly, but love and being at ease has been the stable ground. Bhakti Yoga is the king of yoga, as it deals with love in its purest refined form. A spiritual emergence also deals with ones unfoldment of love and states of developed awareness of the cosmos (the summum bonum). Our organism is by nature made of love. And if there is some psychological block to this striving (emergence) of love the orgnanism may go through a crisis to unfold. Even Arjuna went through an existensial crisis. The most difficult thing for me was awakening to subtle phenomena and some siddhis that were overwhelming. Such phenomena (crisis) is labeled illness in my western society (and not understood), and I was treated thus. But as I studied yoga and other cultures I began to realize my encounters were not illness. My ancestory on my mothers side is South American Indian. In this culture I would have been going through a shamanic journey. Western medical model in this area is sorely lacking, as it is also a reflection of the gross nature of materialism, a disconnection from nature (what is). So Igor I do not practice pranayama as such, but am aware of many things that pranayama and hatha yoga may awaken. What are my motivations for opening this discussion on Nitaai Yoga forum? Simply to document my encounters for future reference, and so that others on this spiritual emergence awakening may have some reference points. For example our friend 'truth seeker' may find some benefit from this discussion. Igor my journey has been long and not easy. Infact the western medical model almost killed me with its medicine at one point. I developed a syndrome called 'neuro-leptic malignant syndrome' which kills one in four. The recovery from that was very hard. Also some of the side-effects such as anxiety developed more problems than the crisis itself. But I am not anti-western medicine like some. I feel people on either extreme are imbalanced to some degree. And their advice can do harm to the one in crisis. Those who have not experienced such a journey may not fully know the encounter. Western medicine is very potent (hence its potential dangers). But in correct dosage and useage is very helpful for the westerner who may not be able to live a refined yogic lifestyle. We need balance actually, and joining of east, west, and indigenous culture in my humble opinion. As has been pointed out by Truth Seeker and Hadai Prabhu certain yogic practices also have their dangers. Spiritual emergence can be difficult for some. But saying this Krsna is the giver of intelligence. Buddhi Yoga is non-different to Bhakti Yoga (Krsna consciousness). Buddhi was my saving grace. And Buddhi is a gift from God. Bhakti is a reciprocation of gifts and loving service. If seen with divine vision this world in which we live is saturated with bhakti and loving dealings. Love in its most subtlest forms is surely divine. I hope my foolishness can be a blessing in some way to someone on the path to awakening love. In service.....Nava.

Sometimes conversion below is used to prove that we don't come from Vaikuntha, however, this is not really being said. Devotee: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence? Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service. Devotee: Could they ever misuse it? Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes? Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back. Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent.

click to enlarge Prabhupāda: Particular incident is significant, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a brāhmaṇa and He was a sannyāsī. According to social custom He should not touch even a Muhammadan, but this Haridāsa Ṭhākura was a Muhammadan, and at his death He took the body Himself and danced, and He put him in the graveyard and distributed prasādam. And Haridāsa Ṭhākura for two, three days he was feeling not well. Because he was Muhammadan he did not enter the temple of Jagannātha temple. Because the Hindus were very strict. He was devotee, he never mind. Why he should create some row? So Caitanya Mahāprabhu appreciated his behavior that he did not want to create any… Because he has become devotee. Forcibly he was not going to the temple. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself was daily coming and seeing him. While going to take bath in the sea, He’ll first of all see Haridāsa. “Haridāsa? What you are doing?” Haridāsa will offer his respect and He will sit and talk for some time. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu will go to take His bath. In this way, one day when He came He saw Haridāsa not feeling very well. “Haridāsa? How is your health?” “Yes Sir, it is not very… After all, it is body.” Then the third day He saw that Haridāsa is going to leave his body today. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him, “Haridāsa, what do you desire?” Both of them could understand. Haridāsa said that “This is my last stage. If You kindly stand before me.” So Caitanya Mahāprabhu stood before him and he left his body. (pause) Hayagrīva: You mentioned that… Prabhupāda: After his departure the body was taken by Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself, and other devotees took him to the seaside and dug his graveyard. That grave is still in Jagannātha Purī. Haridāsa Ṭhākura’s samādhi, tomb. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu began to dance. That was the ceremony. Because in a Vaiṣṇava ceremony, everything is kīrtana and dance. So that was His last ceremony of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Hayagrīva: You mentioned something about Caitanya dancing with Haridāsa? Prabhupāda: Haridāsa’s body. Caitanya…dead body. Haridāsa’s dead body. Hayagrīva: Oh, with his dead body? Prabhupāda: Yes. His dead body. Hayagrīva: After his death. Prabhupāda: After his death. Hayagrīva: Caitanya… Prabhupāda: While, I mean to say, Haridāsa was alive, he was dancing. But after the death of Haridāsa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself took the body and began to dance with kīrtana. That means his funeral ceremony was conducted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself. He took the body to the seaside and in the graveyard He… Hayagrīva: He conducted the… Prabhupāda: Yes. Funeral ceremony, yes. Hayagrīva: With a kīrtana. Prabhupāda: With kīrtana. Kīrtana is always there. And after burial there was distribution of prasādam and kīrtana. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. So here you have to show some talks with Haridāsa, how feelingly. Hayagrīva: All right. Are there any other… Is there any other information about Haridāsa? Prabhupāda: The life history of Haridāsa is that he was born in a Muhammadan family. Someway or other he became a devotee and was chanting 300,000 times Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu made him ācārya, the authority of chanting. Therefore we glorify him, “Nāmācārya Haridāsa Ṭhākura ki jaya.” Because he was made the ācārya, the authority of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then, when Lord Caitanya took sannyāsa, Haridāsa Ṭhākura desired that “My dear Lord, You are leaving Nabadwip, then what is the use of my life? Either you take me or let me die.” So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “No. Why shall you die? You come with Me.” So He took him to Jagannātha Purī. At Jagannātha Purī, because he considered himself born of Muhammadan family, he did not enter. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave him a place at Kāśīnātha Miśra’s house and there he was chanting and Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s sending him prasādam. In that way he was passing his days. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come and see him daily, and one day he died like this. Hayagrīva: All right. That’s the end of the fourth act. Now the fifth act… Prabhupāda: The fifth act… Hayagrīva: First scene. Discourse on Lord Caitanya Play Between Śrīla Prabhupāda and Hayagrīva by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/670405lc.sf.htm

This might be true when seen with our material eyes - a saying goes, "Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all." We shouldnt be too speedily judging complex coherences. Modern science fools us into thinking in the short term, that things should happen fast, however, alone upcoming Golden Age of Kali-Yuga will last for 10,000 years. What happened in the past 30 years could be nothing but some normal labor pains and the setting of the course for the future and what finaly will come out not really visible for us right now. Take the recent excitement of some members about the list of all of Prabhupada's fallen sannyasis. Now, see it that Prabhupada did this to give Westerners a first clue that there's something like a sannyasa order. Only that much. Look at all these terribly sad old men waiting for death of our Western affluent society, doesnt it make sense that there could be a sannyasa order?

The Spiritual Emergence Network assumes that in peoples lives there're sometimes dramatic changes, changes that shouldn't be seen as threatening but as something positive. It further says, <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="11" width="560"><tbody><tr><td class="text" colspan="2" valign="top">DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SPIRITUAL EMERGENCE AND SPIRITUAL EMERGENCY The Stormy Search for the Self By Christina and Stanislav Grof </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Emergence </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Emergency </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Inner experiences are fluid, mild, easy to integrate. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Inner experiences are dynamic, jarring, difficult to integrate. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> New spiritual insights are welcome, desirable, expansive. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> New spiritual insights may be philosophically challenging and threatening. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Gradual infusion of ideas and insights into life. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Overwhelming influx of experiences and insights. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Experiences of energy that are contained and are easily manageable. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Experiences of jolting tremors, shaking, energy disruptive to daily life. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Easy differentiation between internal and external experiences and transition from one to other. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Sometimes difficult to distinguish between internal and external experiences, or simultaneous occurrence of both. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Ease in incorporating non-ordinary states of consciousness into daily life. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Inner experiences interrupt and disturb daily life. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Slow gradual change in awareness of self and world. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Abrupt, rapid shift in perception of self and world. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Excitement about inner experiences as they arise, willingness and ability to cooperate with them. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Ambivalence toward inner experiences, but willingness and ability to cooperate with them using guidance. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Accepting attitude toward change. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Resistance to change. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Ease in giving up control. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Need to be in control. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Trust in the process. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Dislike, mistrust of process. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Difficult experiences treated as opportunities for change. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Difficult experiences are overwhelming, often unwelcome. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Positive experiences accepted as gifts. </td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%"> Positive experiences are difficult to accept, seem undeserved, can be painful. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%">Infrequent need to discuss experiences.</td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%">Frequent need to discuss experiences.</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%">Discriminating when communicating about process (when, how, with whom).</td> <td class="text" valign="top" width="50%">Indiscriminate communication about process.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Also check the KB, the avatar shouldn't be bigger than 19,5 KB. Could be that it works with bigger avatars when uploading for example at tinypic.com and entering the url at "Enter Avatar Url". Something like http://i28.tinypic.com/kd1fzm.jpg

When instructing His sons Lord Rsabhadeva put forward, backed with logic and reason, some important points of deeper spiritual understanding: SB 5.5.14: As I have advised you, My dear sons, you should act accordingly. Be very careful. By these means you will be freed from the ignorance of the desire for fruitive activity, and the knot of bondage in the heart will be completely severed. For further advancement, you should also give up the means. That is, you should not become attached to the process of liberation itself. SB 5.5.15: If one is serious about going back home, back to Godhead, he must consider the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead the summum bonum and chief aim of life. If he is a father instructing his sons, a spiritual master instructing his disciples, or a king instructing his citizens, he must instruct them as I have advised. Without being angry, he should continue giving instructions, even if his disciple, son or citizen is sometimes unable to follow his order. Ignorant people who engage in pious and impious activities should be engaged in devotional service by all means. They should always avoid fruitive activity. If one puts into the bondage of karmic activity his disciple, son or citizen who is bereft of transcendental vision, how will one profit? It is like leading a blind man to a dark well and causing him to fall in. SB 5.5.16: Due to ignorance, the materialistic person does not know anything about his real self-interest, the auspicious path in life. He is simply bound to material enjoyment by lusty desires, and all his plans are made for this purpose. For temporary sense gratification, such a person creates a society of envy, and due to this mentality, he plunges into the ocean of suffering. Such a foolish person does not even know about this. SB 5.5.17: If someone is ignorant and addicted to the path of saḿsāra, how can one who is actually learned, merciful and advanced in spiritual knowledge engage him in fruitive activity and thus further entangle him in material existence? If a blind man is walking down the wrong path, how can a gentleman allow him to continue on his way to danger? How can he approve this method? No wise or kind man can allow this. SB 5.5.18: "One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod.

Article below by Robert J. Sternberg, Tufts University Medford, USA, was published at science.org and examines Philip Johnson-Laird's book, How We Reason, and highlights, "emotional contamination of reasoning". Vaishnavas somehow also use logic and reason when choosing which sastrical quote to bring forward. Could there be also something like "emotional contamination of reasoning" when quoting from sastra? Just as we see topics like, "Do we originate from Vaikuntha?", seems to create different camps of understanding, although quoting from authoritative source. "For logicians who want to accept only that which is proven through logic and argument, it is a fact that without logic and reason there can be no question of accepting the Absolute Truth. Unfortunately, when such logicians take to this path without the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they remain on the platform of logic and argument and do not advance in spiritual life. However, if one is intelligent enough to apply his arguments and logic to the subtle understanding of the fundamental spiritual substance, he will be able to know that a poor fund of knowledge established on the basis of material logic cannot help one understand the Absolute Truth, which is beyond the reach of imperfect senses. The Mahābhārata therefore says, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma-parva 5.22) How can that which is beyond the imagination or sensory speculation of mundane creatures be approached simply by logic? Logic and argument are very poor in spiritual strength and always imperfect when applied to spiritual understanding. By putting forward mundane logic one frequently comes to the wrong conclusion regarding the Absolute Truth, and as a result of such a conclusion one may fall down to accept a body like that of a jackal. Despite all this, those who are actually inquisitive to understand the philosophy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu through logic and argument are welcome. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī addresses them, “Please put Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s mercy to your crucial test, and if you are actually a logician you will come to the right conclusion that there is no personality more merciful than Lord Caitanya.” Let the logicians compare all the results of other humanitarian work with the merciful activities of Lord Caitanya. If their judgment is impartial, they will understand that no other humanitarian activities can surpass those of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Adi 8.16 How Far Can We Go with Reason? by Robert J. Sternberg, Bailou Hall, Tufts University, Medford, MA 02155, USA Just as its name implies, How We Reason (Oxford University Press, 583 pp.) is nominally about how we reason. Its not-so-hidden agenda is actually quite a bit broader: namely, to argue that reasoning can help people lead successful lives and that to the extent that people fail, it is in part because emotions begin to color their reasoning. Beyond establishing the importance of reasoning, Philip N.Johnson-Laird contends that reasoning can be understood in terms of his theory of mental models - according to which people, in the reasoning process, manipulate abstract mental representations that allow them to reach conclusions. Johnson-Laird burst upon the cognitive-psychology scene with the publication of Psychology of Reasoning (1). That book was fairly narrowly focused, primarily on deductive reasoning. A later book (2) sought to characterize reasoning as well as other cognitive processes in terms of mental models. The current magnum opus goes quite a bit beyond its predecessors in dealing with problems of induction, creativity, and insight. In past work, Johnson-Laird has devoted quite a bit of effort to battling the theories of his competitors, such as Lance Rips (3). In this book, Johnson-Laird's goal is not so much to fight the opposition but to argue that human reason can solve many problems facing the world. Historically the study of reasoning has not been at the center of psychology in general or of cognitive psychology in particular. There are far more cognitive psychologists studying perception and memory. Johnson-Laird has strived throughout his career at the University of Sussex, the Medical Research Council Applied Psychology Unit in Cambridge, and now Princeton University to raise the profile of the study of reasoning. He has been at least somewhat successful. He, his students, and his collaborators have received international recognition for their work. Four big questions arise from the book. First, to what extent does Johnson-Laird succeed in describing how we reason? Second, to what extent do the reasoning structures (mental models) Johnson-Laird posits characterize scientific reasoning, a major focus of the book? Third, to what extent does reasoning account for the kinds of thinking artists, writers, composers, and others in the humanities and arts use in their work? Finally, how much help is reasoning of the kind described by Johnson-Laird to us all in our everyday lives? With regard to how we reason, Johnson-Laird's account may not be entirely correct, and it is certainly not complete. To give two examples: Expert reasoning probably relies more on pattern recognition than would follow from mental models. And the fundamental problem of induction - why we make certain inductions but not others - is scarcely addressed. But no other current theory of reasoning is complete either. Not that many years ago, students were being taught, for example, that syllogisms were solved by heuristics, such as atmosphere (if there is a negation in a premise, the solution involves a negation; if there is a particular, the solution involves a particular) or conversion (people read, "If A, then B", as equivalent to, "If B, then A"). Considering how woefully inadequate these past accounts were, Johnson-Laird has brought us very far along in understanding how we reason. Johnson-Laird gives fascinating accounts of some major examples of scientific reasoning, such as the Wright brothers' designing of the first successful airplane, how the codes underlying the Nazi Enigma machine were broken, and how John Snow discovered the link between fetal contamination of drinking water and outbreaks of cholera. His account of deductive inferences is more compelling than his account of inductive and creative processes. Although his broad characterizations are useful, he does not really solve or even address, for example, the crucial problem of creativity: How do we generate novel ideas in the first place? His theory is better at characterizing how we assess whether our ideas are good ideas. The author believes his theory of mental models would characterize thinking in the humanities and arts as well. That is a leap of faith on his part and would be a bigger leap on the part of a reader. There is no evidence - at least in the book (at its end, Johnson-Laird acknowledges that his case histories include nothing from these fields) - that this is the case. Lastly, How We Reason is at its weakest in showing how Johnson-Laird's model of reasoning or, really, any model applies to everyday life. If you want to know how to solve the problems of what to do about the intervention in Iraq, runaway government spending, or a failing marriage, you probably will find little in this bock to help. Johnson-Laird believes that many of the world's ills are caused by emotional contamination of reasoning, an idea that goes back to some of the earliest theorists (4). He tends to view emotion as the cause of failings in reasoning. Yet, one might instead argue that emotion is what makes the world run round. If we want to understand how to rectify our own, and the world's, problems, we had better understand emotional reasoning in its own right, rather than simply label it as an aberration. Two - process theories of reasoning (5), which posit an experiential, a-rational system, as well as the more rational one of which Johnson-Laird writes, seem a large step toward that goal. References 1. P C. Wason, P. N. )ohnson Laird, Psychology of Reasoning: Structure and Content (Ballford, London,1972). z. F N. Johnson Laird, Mental Models: Towards a Cognitive Science of Langvage, Inference, and Consciousness (Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge, MA, 1983). 3. L. ]. Rips, The Psychology of Proof (MIT Press, Cambridge, MA, 1994). 4. R. ). Woodworth, S. B. Sells, ). Exil. Psychol. 18, 451 (1935), S. S. A. Sloman, Psychol. Bull. 119, 3 (1996).

In chapter 2 of Light of the Bhagavata it says, "obedience is the first law of discipline. The people have become disobedient to the laws of God, and therefore neither rain nor wealth is equally distributed." In the New Scientist January 2008 we find an interesting article below how modern science considers, "there must be a real secret what actually happens within a rain cloud". Since I never heard Vaishnava preachers mention this, could be there is a real secret. Although in almost all secrets, it is ultimately Krishna who is involved. "This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets...." BG 9.1 Cracking the puzzle of how raindrops form Mark Anderson sticks his head in a cloud CONTRARY to what it says in the song, the rain in Spain does not stay mainly in the plain. It falls mostly in the mountainous regions of Cantabria and Asturias. Ask meteorologists why, and they will explain that the prevailing winds pick up moisture over the Atlantic, and that when this moist air hits Spain's northern mountain ranges it is forced up to higher altitudes, where the moisture condenses to form clouds, and then rain. So far so good - except that it's only half an answer. Not all clouds produce rain, and if you ask those same meteorologists why, after a few hand waving explanations they will probably confess that they don't really know. While the mechanisms of cloud formation are well understood, no one knows for certain what makes some clouds produce rain and others not. Models of what happens inside a cloud take into account general data like wind speed and the air's humidity, but fudge the inner mechanics of clouds. There is a lot of room for improvement, and solving the mystery will not only help improve climate models, but could improve the reliability of cloud seeding as a way to induce rain (New Scientist, 16 April 2007, p 4o). To estimate the chances of rain, meteorologists and climate modellers have to fall back on observations of which types of clouds tend to produce rain and which do not, says Steve Derbyshire, a weather modeller at the UK's Meteorological Office in Exeter. What modellers like Derbyshire would love is a clean model that explains the precise physics of raindrop formation. There is no shortage of ideas: at least four competing alternatives have been put forward, but until now we have not had the data to conclusively rule any of them in or out. That may be about to change, thanks to the most comprehensive study of cloud formation so far, which has just been completed. The conditions necessary for clouds to form are well understood. Air temperature drops with altitude, so as warm damp air rises and cools, the moisture it carries condenses onto specks of dust or soot, tiny salt crystals and other microscopic particles floating about called cloud condensation nuclei (CCNs) just as moisture in your breath condenses on a cold day. The droplets created when water molecules condense spontaneously onto CCNs can grow to around to micrometres in diameter in under 5 minutes. And that's where the mystery begins. For some reason, these tiny droplets sometimes but not always continue growing, swelling up to a million times their original volume in around 3o minutes. Droplets that grow this big, typically 1 to 2 millimetres in diameter, become too heavy to be held suspended in the cloud by updraughts and so fall to the ground as rain. But what causes this sudden and rapid growth of droplets in some clouds, and why is the process absent in others? Crucial stage The answer may lie in a crucial early stage in droplet growth. At first, the droplets that condense onto CCNs can easily gather more water molecules as they condense out of the cooling cloud. But once the droplets reach a diameter of around 10 micrometres, even a small increase in size means adding many millions of water molecules. Relying purely on condensation to grow the droplets becomes like filling an Olympic swimming pool one cup at a time - a very slow process. It can take days for condensation alone to produce raindrops, says Sonia Lasher-Trapp, an atmospheric physicist at Purdue University in Indiana. However, once droplets reach approximately 4o micrometres, the problem disappears as they now have a significant chance of colliding and amalgamating with one another. "We call that stage collision and coalescence, and once that process gets going, you get rain very quickly," says Lasher Trapp. So the crux of the mystery is this: what makes some droplets bridge the gap and grow from 10 to 4o micrometres? Four main hypotheses have been proposed to explain this. The first of these was developed in 1973 by Hendrik Tennekes of Pennsylvania State University and John Woods, then at the University of Southampton in the UK. They calculated that turbulence inside a cloud might crash droplets together faster and more efficiently than simple cloud models, and their successors now suggest that turbulence lowers the bar for collision and coalescence closer to 10 micrometres, eliminating the 10 to 4o micrometre gap altogether. Yet turbulence may only be part of the story. In 1982, David Johnson of the Illinois State Institute of Natural Resources suggested that just a few 4o micrometre droplets could be enough to trigger a rainstorm. His idea relies on the fact that large aerosol particles, several micrometres in diameter, are known to exist in the atmosphere. Droplets formed by condensation on these oversized CCNs have a headstart, and so can reach the 4o-micrometre threshold more quickly. "It's a nice, simple idea. If you've got big particles, you make raindrops quickly," says Lasher-Trapp. But she points out there's a flaw in this model. When it rains, larger particles drop out of the clouds faster, so the amount of rain they can be responsible for creating is small. In 2000, Alexei Korolev and George Isaac of the Meteorological Service of Canada in Toronto revived an older model, nicknamed the entrainment model. They calculated that the tops of some clouds sweep up parcels of cold, dry air so abruptly that they create turbulence and thus the conditions for extra condensation and coalescence. Korolev and Isaac calculated that this can produce enough 4o micrometre cloud droplets to start the runaway formation of rain. But this still fails to explain how rain is produced in large cumulus clouds. Another model was put forward in 2005, when Raymond Shaw and Alex Kostinski of Michigan Technological University suggested a new twist an Johnson's giant aerosol idea. Although there's only a tiny chance of two to micrometre droplets colliding, Shaw and Kostinski calculated that it only takes a few such droplets to collide and merge for larger droplets to form that will, in turn, start the runaway train of collision and coalescence. "To form rain, you don't need all the droplets to collide with each other. Only a few are needed to get this process going," says Shaw. To help determine which model, or combination of them, is right, Bjorn Stevens of the University of California, Los Angeles, has launched the Rain In Cumulus over the Ocean (RICO) project, which aims to be the most exhaustive empirical study of warm rain to date. He plans to analyse the movement of water droplets in clouds in minute detail, and from that work out what is really going on in rain clouds. Between November 2006 and January 2007, RICO researchers studied clouds forming over a 20,000 square kilometre patch of the Caribbean sea around Antigua and Barbuda. Three research airrraft were flown through the study region, which measured the variation in droplet size within the clouds and also dropped hundreds of lightweight GPS enabled beacons to study air currents within them. Members of the team operating from ships used radar to build up accurate profiles of water density in the clouds, and the movement of droplets in them. On land, there were more radar stations and aerosol measurement sites. Finally, RICO tapped into visual and infrared spectroscopic measurements made from NASA's Terra satellite. (see Diagramm, above) These measurements should at last allow researchers to distinguish between the various models of rain formation. "RICO will allow us to advance the art of cloud simulation to the point where we can begin to quantitatively evaluate these ideas," says Stevens. If, for example, the giant aerosol model is valid, there will be more rain an days when a lot of large aerosols are present in the atmosphere. Things are not looking good for it, as preliminary analysis of the RICO data shows no evidence for such a link. Ruling out the others will be less straightforward, though, and will require more sophisticated analysis of the data. Observations from RICO have even suggested a new twist an existing models. "We saw clouds forming in the debris or wake of old clouds, and that was new to us," says Stevens, describing how particles from evaporating clouds were observed being consumed and turned into a new cloud as a pulse of warm, moist air rose from the sea. It is possible that can initiate rain making, he suggests, as this recycling is likely to cause droplets from the parent clouds to combine and grow. So far, though, it has yet to be borne out by observation. Whichever theory wins out will have to explain both how raindrops form and why they sometimes fail to form "You'd like a theory that can form rain relatively quickly, but on the other hand can still allow for all those clouds we know and love that don't form rain," says Stevens. Understanding the behaviour of water droplets at the micrometre scale, crucial as it is, will never provide the whole story, however. A complete theory of rain formation will have to take into account everything from submicrometre aerosols to wind and convection currents within and around clouds, right up to the interaction of weather fronts hundreds of kilometres wide. The mass of data collected by RICO will be relevant to all these factors, but at the same time its sheer volume will pose a problem for researchers. There will be far too many measurements for the computational model to cope with, Lasher-Trapp says, so modellers will have to select representative phenomena at each significant size scale. If the puzzle of raindrop formation can be solved, the conclusions will reach beyond meteorology. The cooling effect of small, puffy cumulus clouds as they reflect sunlight is linked to the sizes of the droplets they contain. So understanding how raindrops form should help answer crucial questions about how the climate might change in the years ahead. "In a future climate that might be warmer, can we expect clouds to help us out?" asks Lasher-Trapp. "Or might it go the other way and help warm Earth even more?" Mark Anderson is a science writer based in Northampton, Massachusetts

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26 They disingenuously either ignore this "conclusion" or give some fanciful interpretation that suits their purposes. This plain statement is in the midst of a whole section of the Srimad-Bhagavatam with Srila Prabhupada's purports that clearly explain that the only souls descending from the spiritual planets are those souls coming for engagement in the direct lila of the Supreme Lord. This fact is irrefutable. However, instead of intelligently adjusting their ideas, they search the vast body of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and conversations for their own similarly self-serving "envy in Goloka maha-vakyas". They then try to assume the moral high ground by using inventive phrases like "Prabhupada-siddhanta" and seek to support their nonsense by implying that those who do not accept their twisted "Goloka-envy-maha-vakyas" are somehow against Srila Prabhupada. Thus they also employ repetitive propaganda and false posturing of a self-awarded exclusive faithfulness to Srila Prabhupada to support their false claims and clear misinterpretation. This is all they have to offer, certainly nothing from the Vedas. As we say, in our previous offering "Envy Rules, Kindly Follow" we asked for just one sloka from the Vedas to support their nonsense claims of "envy in Goloka", but what is the result. Absolutely, nothing. Absolutely nothing, but more of the same convoluted, aimlessly meandering, self-serving misinterpretation and unsupportable pompous posturing. Yes, and we have to emphasize, absolutely nothing from the Vedas supporting their impossible claims of "envy in Goloka". Of course, the Vedas have not missed out on the subject of the fall of the jiva: "In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9, we find: <center> tasya va etasya purunasya dve eva sthane bhavata idam ca paraloka-sthanaà ca sandhyam trtiyam svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca </center> "The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm. He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds [the Casual Ocean] . From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds." "Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva: <center> tad yaths mahs matsya ubhe kule' nusancarati purvam ca param caivam evsyam purusa etsv ubhav antav anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </center> "The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly, the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness." One might ask how has the jiva has arrived in the Casual Ocean. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in Jaiva-dharma, Chapter Fifteen, has given a full description: "In Goloka Vrndavana, Sri Balarama manifests unlimited nitya-parsadas, eternal associates, belonging to the jiva category for the service of Sri Krsna. Similarly, in Vaikuntha, Lord Sankarsana manifests unlimited nitya-parsadas also of the jiva category for the service of Sri Narayana. These nitya-parsadas are eternally engaged in serving their object of worship, the Supreme Godhead, who is absorbed in rasa. They are eternally situated in their svarupa, remain constantly engrossed in satisfying their beloved Lordship, and ever possess enthusiasm and affection for the Lord that never diminishes. They are forever extremely spiritually potent, being imbued with the cit-sakti of the Lord. They have no connection with maya-they are even unmindful of her existence. They are permanent residents of the spiritual world and are very far away from maya. They are fully absorbed in simply relishing the bliss of devotional service to their beloved Lord. Selfish material joys and sorrows are totally alien to these eternally liberated souls. Prema being their life and soul, they do not even know that lamentation, death or fear actually exist. "Also, countless, infinitesimal jivas emanate from Karanodakasayi Maha Visnu, lying within the Causal Ocean, whose glance impregnates the maya-sakti. As these jivas are the neighbors of maya, they witness her variegatedness. The symptoms of the general mass of jivas as discussed earlier are also present in these jivas. However, because they are minuscule in size and situated at the margin, their constitutional nature is to look at both the material world and the spiritual sky. Their marginal condition makes them vulnerable because-up to this point of time-they have not been reinforced with cit-bala, the strength of spiritual potency, by the mercy of the Supreme Lord, their worshipable object. Those amongst them who desire to enjoy material nature become absorbed in matter and are thus eternally enthralled by her, while those endeavoring to serve the Divine Worshipable Object, upon receiving His mercy, are elevated to the spiritual world. Therefore, my son, we are in a most wretched state. Having forgotten our devotion and service to Sri Krsna, we are held as the captives of maya, and thus, in lieu of our original transcendental status, we are in this miserable situation." So the above slokas directly from the Vedas and the corresponding detail from the Seventh Goswami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur definitively clear up the matter. However, this direct description from the highest authority of the Vedas and the words of a supreme Vaisnava such as Bhaktivinoda Thakura mean nothing to the fools and rascals who wish to portray that the Supreme Abode of the Lord, Goloka-Vrndavana is a place where "envy rules". Apparently, according to their impossible philosophy, in his supremely pure state of Krsna-prema, the jiva somehow or other starts to "envy Krsna". As Krsna-prema is the purified state of the jiva and the maya-sakti has no presence on the transcendental platform, this means that the jiva has the constitutional quality of "envying Krsna". The constitution of the jiva is qualitatively equal to that of Krsna. Thus the source of this constitutional envy must be the constitutional quality of Krsna. Thus the Supreme Lord, according to the implications of their argument, is inherently "constitutionally envious". Not only that, but Krsna-prema is defeated by "envy of Krsna". Thus "envy of Krsna" becomes more powerful than "love of Krsna", even in the Supreme Lord's personal abode. What speculative offensive nonsense. Furthermore, as, for our understanding, the material world is described as one fourth of the creation, this means that approximately one fourth of all the residents in spiritual world have awakened their "constitutional envy of Krsna", rejected the ecstasy of bhakti, and preferred the cycle of birth and death in the miserable material world. Furthermore, the Vedas must be wrong, because throughout the Vedas, and at the very end sloka of the Vedanta-sutra, it is clearly stated that no-one who has attained the spiritual planets ever falls from these, the eternal Supreme Abode of the Lord: Vedanta, 4th Adhaya, Sutra 22: <center>anavrttih sabdad anavrttih sabdat</center> an-without; avrttih-return; sabdat-because of the scriptures. "No return, because of the scriptures. No return, because of the scriptures." Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana A devotee who faithfully worships and serves the Supreme Lord and then goes to the Lord's spiritual world, never returns. How is that known? The sutra explains, "sabdat" (because of the scriptures). In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.6) it is said: <center> etena pratipadyamana imam manavam avartam navartante</center> "They who enter the spiritual world never return to the world of men." In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.1) it is said: <center> sa khalv eva vartayan yavad ayusam brahmalokam abhisampadyate. na ca punar avartate.</center> "Leaving this life, he enters the spiritual world. He never returns." In the Bhagavad-gita (8.15 and 16) Lord Krsna declares: <center> mam upetya punar janma duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah </center> "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." All these Vedic slokas describe the entry of the jiva to the eternally safe refuge of the spiritual planets in terms of "attainment". Why? Because the fallen souls of this world have never been to the spiritual planets. Thus the Vedas, as above, constantly describe the spiritual planets as places of "attainment" not "return". It is the material world to which the liberated jivas never "return". But in the befuddled intellect of the "envy in Goloka" theorists, the Vedic statements of "no return to the material world" become twisted completely into "return to Goloka". What a display of blind idiocy. As evidenced by the Upanishad and acaryas above, the jivas of this world have emanated from Maha-Visnu and fallen from the margin between the material and spiritual worlds that is the Casual Ocean. In this position, their devotion to the Supreme Lord was in a nascent state. Perceiving the Supreme Lord's infinite supremacy in this weak position, they exerted their free will to rebel against that infinite supremacy of the Lord and resultantly fancied themselves to become independent enjoyers, as is the Lord. With such a mentality of competition with the Supreme Lord, they cannot enter the spiritual planets where co-operative devotion to the Supreme Lord is not nascent but unbounded and eternally established without "fall", as Srila Prabhupada declares. Thus they "fell" from a position above the material energy but not the spiritual planets. Maya devi has shackled them, and under the direction of the Lord, their desire for independent enjoyment is being fulfilled. The desire of independent enjoyment cannot co-exist with perception the inherent supremacy of the Lord, and so the fallen jivas have been bestowed forgetfulness and non-perception of the Lord. This is the dreamlike delusion to with all the Vaisnava acaryas refer as the condition of the fallen, rebellious jiva. Being spiritual in essence and naturally a devoted servant of the Lord, this perverted consciousness of the fallen jiva is a source of great distress and dissatisfaction to the misfortunate jiva. This distress is heightened by the foreign nature of the material nature, which is also fundamentally discordant with the innate spirituality of the jiva. When the time of this fallen jiva's imprisonment is coming to an end, by the grace of the Lord, the fallen jiva meets the genuine sadhu whose association and instruction dispel the underlying rebellion towards the Lord. By associating with the Merciful Lord through His sound incarnation, the Transcendental Name and Vedic Knowledge, the perverted consciousness of the jiva is gradually rectified under the shelter of the sadhus and guru. The sadhu's treatment of the jiva's illusion must sometimes involve even severe chastisement to awaken the jiva from mental speculation and sensual pursuit. Thus the guru is "heavy". But this is the greatest mercy of the guru. The guru is greatly pained to see the nonsense of his disciple and out of love does all in his power to cut the misfortunate jiva free from his mental speculation. The sadhus know that if the jivas are to quickly attain liberation and Krsna-prema, then it is essential that they have the right conception of all matters, both spiritual and material. Thus the sadhus are duty-bound to forcefully expose the philosophical and illogical mistakes of the illusioned jiva, and replace such nonsense with the Vedic message. Thus Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada was known as the "Lion Guru". And Srila Prabhupada employed the "axe-chopping" technique he had learned from his Glorious Guru. Certainly, the realized, qualified guru is not a "maybe this, maybe that" personality, for he has realized the Absolute Truth, and from this position of realization cannot help but present this Absolute Knowledge forcefully. For the realized soul, the Absolute Truth is not a matter of debate, for he has seen the Truth. However, the rebellion and concomitant anger of certain jivas is highly developed and thus they may classified as demoniac, determinedly against the sadhus and Vedas. They have unfortunately progressed from being ignorant illusioned fools to envious demoniac rascals. Interestingly, this deep resentment against the Supreme Lord in many cases attracts them to the path of religion. However they do not wish to surrender to this path, but rather wish to ruin this path out of envy. Lost to themselves, they may be largely unaware of their motivations. They may maneuver themselves into high positions within religious organizations, even legislating themselves as exclusive gurus, representing the Supreme Lord. Yet, upon attaining such positions, they exhibit great arrogance, misuse of power, mental speculation, and sensual exploitation. Inevitably, they fall from their contrived positions. Subsequently, they affect humility and repentance as suits their purposes but secretly and smugly feel a demoniac happiness to have misled and confused many neophytes on the spiritual path. Thus, even unknowingly, these rascals are resolute in their activity of attempted destruction of the sadhus and the Vedas. Kamsa is an example of this obsessive mentality of aggression against the Vedas and the sadhus. Vedic sastric declarations mean nothing to these deviants, and even when given plain Upanishadic references on a topic such as the fall of the jiva, they blithely state that no Vedic reference has been given. In earlier essays, many references have been given to the "fall of the jiva", but the befuddled rascals pretend to themselves and others that a "no-fall" conception is being propounded. What self-serving humbug. Provoked by an underlying demoniac nature, they invent terms such as "Prabhupada-siddhanta", which they try to pass off as a glorification of a great acarya. To imply that Srila Prabhupada deviated from the Vedic siddhanta and previous acaryas is a great offense, but this is then compounded with the thoughtless assertion that Srila Prabhupada's teachings are "contradictory". Put simply, they prefer their misinterpretation of Srila Prabhupada to the role of a surrendered student. Moreover, they posture that those that quote the Vedas, Vedanta-sutra, the Seventh Goswami, Baladeva-vidyabusana are somehow not following Srila Prabhupada. What unmitigated arrogance. Throughout his teachings, Srila Prabhupada unequivocally directs us to take shelter of guru, sadhu and sastra to resolve points of siddhanta, but the purveyors of "envy in Goloka" and "Prabhupada siddhanta" will not do this, but simultaneously posture that they are teaching what Srila Prabhupada taught. The obvious contradiction in their behavior only further evidences that they are not the representatives of Srila Prabhupada, but rather a group of fools and rascals that willfully distort the "conclusion" of Srila Prabhupada for their purpose of presenting the ultimate Supreme Abode of the Lord and the Supreme Lord as reservoirs of "envy" not eternal transcendental love. This evidences that they are demonically intent on casting doubt in the minds of the practicing devotees who are ascending to a location and state of eternal Krsna-consciousness. For this insistent propagation of nonsense as the "conclusion" of Srila Prabhupada, their devotional life and progressive realization of siddhanta is not only halted but rather covered. They unknowingly find themselves cast in to the shadows of doubt and further mental speculation for this offence, and from these shadows they have only one tactic: further regurgitation of their unsupportable misinterpretation of Vedic siddhanta and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. They may be beyond redemption in this life for their offence, however they must be exposed lest the path of devotion be put in doubt in the minds of unrealized neophytes, who are the only persons who will be befuddled by their unmitigated nonsense and mental speculation which they try to pass off as "Prabhupada siddhanta" by simply employing the tactic of posture and disingenuous argumentation. If they find that they still cannot change their misinformation and posturing, we simply repeat our challenge: No more misinterpretation of Srila Prabhupada, kindly provide just one sloka, one section, one word even, directly from the Vedas that describes an ecstatic beloved servant of the Lord immersed in Krsna-prema in the Supreme Abode of the Lord becoming "envious of Krsna". Just one. Just one. Just one. But of course, just as we have recently seen this clear demand for Vedic direct evidence will be ignored, because there is no such description, since such a event has never happened, has never happened, has never happened. And will never happen, and will never happen, and will never happen. Why? Because Srila Prabhupada, sadhu and sastra say so. They say so. They say so: "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Srila Prabhupada, purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26. However, we have fallen from the margin that is the Casual Ocean after emanation from Maha-Visnu. Why? Because, the Supreme Lord, in His form as the Vedas, has said so. He has said so. He has said so. And once we attain the Supreme Abode of the Lord, we will never return to this material world. Why? Because the Lord in the Bhagavad Gita has said so. He has said so. He has said so: <center> yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama Bhagavad-gita 15.6</center> <center>Aum Tat Sat</center> We hope this is found helpful, Your servant, Balavidya dasa

No Evidence Available in the Vedas of Fall from Goloka through Envy BY: BALAVIDYA DASA Jan 31, USA (SUN) — Not a proverbial peep. In our previous posting, "Envy Rules, Kindly Follow", we finished by asking the 'fall-from-Goloka' theorists to provide just one quote from the Vedas and Puranas describing their proposed tale of 'envy in Goloka'. Of the three ultimate authorities-guru, sadhu and sastra-sastra is the highest. The Vedas are the breathing of the Supreme Lord and thus non-different from the Glorious Lord: "The Personality of Godhead produced the four Vedas by His breathing, and He is seen and realized through the transcendental sound of the Vedas. Similarly, the Bhagavad-gita is the sound representation of the Lord, and there is no difference in identity." Srila Prabhupada, Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam. 1.6.25 The sadhus expound and elucidate the Vedas for the benefit of all souls. The sadhus know that contrary ideas outside the realm of the Vedas simply evidence the rebellious ignorance of the fallen soul. Such speculative ideas are produced by the churning mental concoction of the deluded soul. They are ghosts haunting the fallen soul within the darkness of the material energy. These ghosts whisper what the fallen soul egoistically wants to hear: "You are the supreme and most important element in creation. Your ideas are the absolute truth, the foundation of all understanding. Any ideas that conflict with yours must be incorrect even if those ideas are against the siddhanta of the Vedas." The fallen soul has rebelled against the supremacy of the Supreme Lord, thus he is in the material world. In the material world the supremacy of the Lord is manifest in the Vedas. And the devotional surrender that is the antithesis of the rebellious nature of the fallen soul manifests as surrender to the Vedas. Without acceptance of the import of the Vedas, the path to true surrender remains closed. Acceptance of the Vedas is the essential element for the attainment of the spiritual platform. In Vedic ontology, those that do not accept the Vedas are defined as atheists. However, the fallen soul overly attached to mental speculation and sensual pursuit has no interest in the Vedas. Rather, he feels his material life is threatened by the Vedic gospel. The Vedic gospel is powerfully presented by the qualified spiritual master, who knows that presenting the Vedas is non-different from presenting the Supreme Lord Himself. By the expert words of the spiritual master, the self-evident authority of the Vedas becomes clearly apparent. Those that are intelligent, non-envious and fortunate surrender to the Vedas, but those whose determination is to continue in chasing the illusory so-called enjoyment of material life maintain their rebellious attitude to the Lord by rebelling against the Vedic import. This rebellion takes two forms: outright dismissal and self-serving re-interpretation. The errant soul when faced with the demand of surrender to the Supreme Lord that is the ultimate import of the Vedas seeks to escape this demand by these two methods: dismissal and reinterpretation. Thus within the material world, there are many philosophies that seek to dismiss outright the Vedas. "The Vedas are mythology.The Vedas are ancient books that have no relevance to life in the modern world.The Vedas are the poetry of imaginative scribes.Life comes from matter, so the transcendental world presented by the Vedas is just a dream.A basic tenet of Buddhism is to deny the validity of the Vedas." The learned reader will be acquainted with these mistaken propositions that at least have a certain honesty in the way they unabashedly dismiss the authority of the Vedas. The second method of attacking the Vedas is the "snake in the grass" approach. The snake takes shelter in the long grass seeking his chance to inject poison in his victim. Similarly there are many persons and philosophies which apparently take shelter of the Vedas, however their intention is to poison their victims with a vile misinterpretation of the Vedas. The Mayavadi philosophy is one of these "snake in the grass" philosophies. The Mayavadis from all the Vedas, and in particular the Upanishads, have gleaned four statements that with a twist of meaning can be used to support their re-interpretation of the Vedas. They inventively call these four statements the "four maha-vakyas" of the Vedas. However, this term is a completely self-serving tactic. The whole of the Vedas have validity and in no place are the four statements called "maha-vakyas". However, by inventively creating a special name for these four statements, the Mayavadis hope to draw attention to them and by misinterpreting these statements convince the innocent of their bogus philosophy. Recently, we see the rtvik-guru deviants employ the same tactic. However, they can stress only one word "henceforward" in all of Srila Prabhupada's vast production. What makes their idea even more farcical is the fact that this one word is in a letter composed by Tamal Krsna Goswami. However, provoked by their underlying, demoniac desire to destroy the age-old parampara system enunciated in the Vedas, this means nothing to them. They simply insist on their misinterpretation. In this way, they march the path from being ignorant fools to being demoniac rascals, who driven by their mental speculation and false ego refuse to listen to all statements of guru, sadhu and sastra that clearly countermands their nonsense ideas. Of course, recently they were asked to come up with just one instance from sadhu and sastra to support their impossible ideas. And the result, absolutely nothing. Yes, absolutely nothing to support their "10,000 year rtvik-diksa-guru philosophy". In their failure they simply resort to repetitive propaganda and disingenuous word-jugglery that simply further exposes the weakness of their arguments and mischievous rascal nature. Thus, ultimately, they only expose their insincerity in following Srila Prabhupada, sadhu and Vedic sastra. Without this surrender, they will remain in the material world. Now we have the "envy in Goloka" personalities. They also employ the "snake in the grass" tactic. They also presumptuously argue that they are giving the truth of Srila Prabhupada, and yet also cannot offer anything directly from the Vedas to support their claim of "envy in Goloka". It means nothing to them that Srila Prabhupada has conclusively said: continued

A moral story By Kaviraja Shanti Prakash Das There were three poor men who always desired great riches. One day a special delivery man handed to each poor man an envelope and informed each man, that within the envelope is a great fortune. The first poor man did not think very much of the envelope, thinking it to be junkmail, he tossed it on a pile of similar mails that was supposed to make him a millionaire, or win a special prize, sweepstakes etc. The second poor man opened the envelope and found a golden card. Thinking it to be real gold, he rushed to jewellery store to ascertain the card’s carat or value. The jeweler took one look at the card and began to laugh at the poor man. He remarked that it was just a plastic card, amused at the poor man’s foolishness. The poor man felt cheated and threw the card away. The third poor man opened the envelope and found the same gold card. He inspected it carefully and humbly asked the delivery man to explain the significance of the mail. He also found within the envelope a note informing him that this was the prize for a competition he (and the other poor men) entered some time ago. He listened intently to the delivery man, understanding that this was no ordinary delivery boy, but an educated gentleman. The delivery man explained that this competition was sponsored by a charitable benefactor, who handpicked each poor man’s name. The prize was a credit card which did not require repayment with and no credit limit. However it was only to be used at selected businesses. He thanked the delivery man profusely and bid him farewell. The poor man understanding his fortunate position began to utilize the credit card to become a very wealthy man. Krishna consciousness is the most valuable treasure in all existence. In this analogy, the first poor man displays the situation of someone who has received Krishna (or God) conscious literature, an invitation to a Temple of the Lord, or even someone who has heard the ancient wisdom in bona fide disciplic succession. Although receiving Krishna consciousness, he/she thinks the treasure of devotion to God to be another fanatical religious cult or pointless philosophy- thus he/she never applies the eternal science of bhakti-yoga. The second poor man is like someone who has taken to the process of Krishna consciousness but is unable to grasp its actual value, nor is this person able to utilize the divine process successfully. This person may chant Krishna’s transcendental name daily, read regularly and may even be formally initiated as a devotee. However when faced with a vast array of material tribulations, he/she may doubt the efficacy of the practice. This person may even feel cheated at some point and discard the priceless boon of devotional service to God. The jeweler represents people who ridicule devotees’ devotional activities, but who are also ignorant of the true wealth of devotion. Such people, the so-called intelligentsia maybe very respected by these ‘poor’ devotees- but they cannot help one to understand how to effectively utilize Krishna consciousness to transform one’s life positively and progressively. Such association will actually steal the gift of eternal bliss from the neophyte devotee. The third poor man shows the example of a person who understands the value of Krishna consciousness and knows how to practice it effectively by following the science as it is under the guidance of eminent spiritual scientists. The third poor man humbly asked for some guidance from the delivery man. We naturally need guidance in material life, what to speak of spiritual life which is a completely different dimension- thus we should humbly approach the pure devotee(s). However that does not mean he blindly accepted whatever the delivery man said; he judged him to be a respectable person from what he heard. Our past masters inform us that we should not try to see a saintly devotee, since we have no such vision, rather we should hear from the devotee. If such a devotee is bona fide, then his/her words will make an impression onto our consciousness if we are sincere. The delivery man did not deviate from the note; similarly the spiritual master’s message never deviates from the bona fide scriptures, but presents it as he/she received it from his/her spiritual master. The actual test of the spiritual master and his/her guidance is if the application of the master’s instructions produces realization, or attachment to Krishna. Our Srila Prabhupada has displayed the potency of Krishna consciousness in recent history. He indelibly awakened genuine spirituality in the hearts of many sincere souls by his exact guidance. He was very fond of explaining that one knows a tree by its fruits. So if by the association of a person, one becomes attracted to the Supreme, then one can understand that such association is the best. When understands the fortune of such association, then one can really utilize Krishna consciousness. It is by the mercy of the spiritual master that one can understand bhakti and how to apply it effectively. However this understanding does not produce the fruit or bhakti unless there is application of the principles by the disciple. The prize was delivered on behalf of the charitable benefactor by the delivery man, similarly Krishna is the ultimate benefactor for all living beings and out of causeless compassion for His unfortunate children’s cries for happiness- He sends His dear sons, messengers and servants to give the greatest fortune for the living entity- God consciousness. The bona fide disciple may have material problems but understands that material life is the actual problem and to try to remedy it by material means is foolish. He/she understands that application of spiritual technologies of bhakti yoga is the solution to all problems. This is performed maturely, with the understanding of one’s individual capacity to practice Krishna consciousness and progress gradually. Beyond the cessasation of material suffering; he/she relishes the taste of true spiritual life. The fundamental difference between this person and the former person is that this person possesses the understanding of his/her constitutional relationship to God and His devotees, the material world, and all living entities (or sambandha jnana- which begins theoretically). When one serves in this understanding (the proper process or abidheya), one begins to realize the Truth gradually which is directly perceived within the practioner, until one achieves the goal of life- pure love of God (or prayojana). Even the Supreme Lord, who is the ultimate controller, becomes completely controlled by pristine pure love of His bona fide devotee. There is no wealth equal to or greater than this. source: dandavats.com