Puru_Das

Here is a verse with a translation of Srila Jiva Gosvami's tikha of Bhakti Rasamrta-sindhu http://bvml.org/SHBM/brs5.html offered to us by Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja. Then SHBM gives additional comments of his own in the "Translator's notes." The information goes hand in hand with Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja's article, "Decent of the Holy Name." Text 2:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> tatra sadhana-bhaktih –<o:p></o:p> krti-sadhya bhavet sadhya-bhava sa sadhanabhidha |<o:p></o:p> nitya-siddhasya bhavasya prakatyam hrdi sadhyata ||2||<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Translation: Uttama-Bhakti, that has been previously explained, when translated into practice through the organs of the body, and which being so practiced brings on the manifestation of Bhava-Bhakti in the heart of the individual is called Sadhana-Bhakti. –2-<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Commentary: A question may be raised: As the practices of Uttama-Bhakti through the organs of the body is Sadhana-Bhakti, can it be said that such physical practices are only a means to an end or they are a part and parcel of Sadhana-Bhakti itself? Commentator Sri Jiva Gosvami says that just as all that is done as the preliminary of a Vedic sacrificial ritual is considered to be part and parcel of the sacrificial ceremony, so also the physical activities through which Sadhana-Bhakti is practiced for bringing on the manifestation of Bhava-Bhakti should be regarded as part and parcel of Sadhana-Bhakti. The self-revelation of the eternally real Bhava-Bhakti in the heart is called Bhava-Sadhya.<o:p></o:p> Sri Jiva Gosvami further answers a hypothetical objection. It may be said that if Bhava-Bhakti is to result from Sadhana-Bhakti as a consequence thereof, it becomes an effect in time (Janya-Padartha), and therefore does not answer to the conception of Bhava-Bhakti as an eternally accomplished reality. Sri Jiva points out in reply that what happens in the case in question is that Bhava, which is an eternal essence of the Swarupa-Sakti i.e. the Intrinsic Potency of the Lord Himself, and not a thing that grows in the heart of an individual as an effect of Sadhana-Bhakti, reveals itself into the heart of the Jiva-atma or finite self, where it was absent because of its self-forgetfulness and God-forgetfulness. When such Bhava-Bhakti appears in the heart of the finite self (Jiva-atma), it reveals itself in such special physical expressions as (1) chanting of the Name of the Lord, (2) hearing the glories of the Lord and above all, (3) mentally recalling the Events of His Divine Life. This disposes of the objections that such physical activities being parts of Sadhana-Bhakti, they cannot be included as elements of Bhava-Bhakti. In fact in Sadhana-Bhakti the activities that are practiced are a means to the End Bhava, in which they culminate. But the expressions of Bhava-Bhakti through the tongue, ears and mind of the devotee who has attained Bhava-Bhakti are themselves part and parcel of the Bhava that has appeared in the heart of the individual and are not a means to anything other than themselves. In Sadhana-Bhakti the physical activities are a part and parcel of Sadhana-Bhakti itself, while in Bhava-Bhakti its Anu-Bhavas, such as chanting or singing or listening or remembrances, make use of the tongue, ears and mind of the Bhava-devotee and spontaneously manifest themselves in these physical organs out of the eternal and innate essence of the Swarupa-Sakti of the Supreme Lord.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Translator's Note: It may be noted here that one of the basic principles on which the Vaisnava religion is founded is that the finite self or Jiva-atma in the stage of God-forgetfulness is incapable of generating Bhakti in itself by its unaided individual effort. Bhakti is part and parcel of the intrinsic nature or essence of the Lord's Swarupa-Sakti, i.e. the Potency that is inherently associated with and non-differentiated from the Lord Himself. It is this that descends into the Jiva-soul through the Guru Parampara, i.e. the uninterrupted claim of Preceptorial Order; in each one of the Preceptors in the chain this power of the Lord must have manifested itself. If this chain of the perceptorial Order is interrupted at any link, there can be no manifestation of this eternal Seed of Bhakti in the individual disciple. It is illustrated here by a simile. Just as the sacred river Ganga issues from the mouth of the cow shaped cave in the snow-clad Himalayas and descends on the plain and flows uninterrupted into the sea sanctifying all the lands through which she passes, so is it with this Bhakti-Rasa of the Nectar of Devotion and Devotional Love of the Supreme Lord that emanates from the Lord's Swarupa-Sakti and revealing itself through an uninterrupted Chain of Spiritual Preceptors or Guru appears at last in the heart of a self-forgetful and God-forgetful mortal who has the good fortune by accident to come in contact with one of these saints while floating in the current of time just like a piece of straw accidentally stuck to the shore while being carried adrift in the fast stream of a river. What is to be noted here is that Chain must not be interrupted at any link in order that the appearance of Bhakti may be possible in an ordinary mortal. We may also explain this idea by a modern simile. Just as for telephonic communication from one part of the country to another, there must be a connecting wire without which such communication is not possible from one part of the country to another, and just as the wires being cut in between, communication from one part to another becomes impossible, so also it is with the manifestation of the eternal Bhava or Prema-Bhakti, which is the essence of the Lord's Swarupa-Sakti, through an uninterrupted succession of truly genuine Gurus (not Guru-bruvas, i.e. fake Gurus).<o:p></o:p> Sri Jiva Gosvami further comments that it has been already said that Sadhana-Bhakti is Sadhana-Bhakti in the sense that it brings on the manifestation of Bhava-Bhakti in the Jiva-soul. Therefore, practices, which lead to the attainment of ends other than Bhava-Bhakti, such as Dharma, Artha, ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/<st1:place>Kama</st1:place> or Moksa, are not to be considered as answering to the conception of Sadhana-Bhakti. It is pointed out in this connection that Bhava-Bhakti is not a generated event, but is a case of the descent of Eternally Real from God to the individual. If it were a generated event, it would be like all events in time -a thing that begins in time and also ends in time, and would thus cease to be Parama-Purusartha or summum bonum of life. But it is, as has been said, not a generated event at all, but something that eternally is. What is generated is its appearance in the individual heart through descent from God to man. –2-<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

Guest, I suggest you re read this talk from Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja, "Descent of the Holy Name." http://bvml.org/SBRSM/tdothn.html It is a straw man argument to compare Kusakratha Prabhu's translations with SBVNM's translation and commentary. Try examining the non literal translations of many of the verses in the Sri Guadiya Kantahara http://bvml.org/SGK/index.htm that glorify Mahaprabhu. http://bvml.org/SGK/04.html Our acaryas have translated many of these slokas in light of their own realization when the sanskrit makes no direct mention of Gauranga Mahaprabhu. We find here non literal translations. To accept them requires faith in the translators, otherwise not. I am not a sanskrit expert so it will be difficult to determine if SBVNM has given a literal or explicative translation of Srila Jiva Gosvami. His book (Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu-bindu) is translation and commentary. I hardly think it is reasonable, and borders on aparadha, for you to assume he is "putting words in Srila Jiva Gosvami's mouth," Would you say that the translator of the slokas of Gaudiya Kantahara was inventing words when he indicated Mahaprabhu? I think not. You have no faith in SBVNM, then so be it. There is simply no need to denigrate diksa and the sampradaya mantras in the name of glorifying the holy name. There is also no need to denigrate the sincere efforts of Viasnavas to assist conditioned souls on their path back to godhead. There is no need to broadcast speculative instructions and wrong directions regarding the importance of Krsna's advice in Bg. 4.34 and second initiation.

Comment The gurus internal, spiritual mood of service to Sri Radhika and Krsna is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of mantra .Everything is given in seed form within the mantra. At first the discple will not be able to understand, but by performing sadhana and bhajana under the guidance of Sri Gurudeva and by meditating on the mantra given by him, gradually everything will be revealed. Therefore, it is said here that the mantra is the direct representation of Sri Gurudeva.. . ." SBVNM

On page 48 of Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu-bindu in his Translation and Commentary, of Verse 4 SBVNM writes: ". . . By the word nrnam used in this verse, Srila Sanatana Gosvami has indicated a person who has received initiation. In other words a person who receives diksa becomes a dvija* or twice-born. By the word dvijatvam he has indicated that one attains to the state of a brahmana, or one who knows the absolute truth Brahman. The word dvijatvam used here does not mean the state of being a dvija by initiation into the sacred thread like that of the ksatriyas and vaisyas. By the procedure of diksa the disciple is born again. This is called birth by diksa (daiksa-janma). There are three kinds of birth: (1) saukra-janma-seminal birth; that is, birth by mother and father, ()savitra-janma- a ceremony in which a boy is initiated into one of the three twice-born classes by being invested with the sacred thread and (3)daiksa-janma--birth by the process of spiritual initiation (diksa). Evena a sudra or an untouchable person who is born in the lowest family obtains the samskaras for being a dvija upon being initiated in accordance witht he regulations of the Pancaratra. This is the purport of the following statement from the Mahabharata (Anusasana-parva 143.46). . . " *The word dvija in common usage can refer to a man of any of the first three classes-brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya-who had been reborn by being invested with the sacred thread. Here, however, the word dvija is being used specificially to refer to the state of a brahmana, or one who knows Brahman. You can read almost the same information in one of SBSST's lectures called "Search for Truth",pp.18, in a book called Sri Chaitanya's Teachings, 4th edition published in 1999 by the Sree Gaudiya Matha,Chennai. ". . .There is a function which is called 'Upanayana' (bringing near). We come to learn from the words of the Shruti that the birth of man is three-fold, viz. (1)seminal birth (2)by Gayatri(3) by initiation. The seminal birth comes first in order of time, from the mother's womb. Then comes the second birth on the attainment of purification by the Gayatrimantram. The next birth is brought about on receiving Spritual enligtenment (diksa). We obtain a body from the mother's womb by vital fluid from the father. This is our first birth. The body that we get by this process is one kind of body. The second kind of body is that which is born by the union of the Acharya as father and Gayatri as mother at the time of our investiture with the Holy thread. Then the Acarya-father binds us with the thread of Sacrifice for the purpose of introducing us to the study of the Vedas by means of the Mantras, I will lead thee into the presence of the Veda etc. The birth to which we are therebye subjected in the home of the Acharya is our second birth. . . " So,if I may be so bold as to observe SBSST and SVCT (as explained by SBVNM in his translation and commentary) make a distinction between receiving gayatri and diksa. Hearing the mantra is only the beginning, or entrance into the school of diksa. Divya-jnanam or spiritual enligtenment (which Srila Jiva Gosvami mentions) is for the graduates of that school, those who actually have realized diksa.

To some extent you are correct, but we don't want you to stay confused. SBVNM, and/or the editors of the book, have not translated the comments by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and all the 26 verses seperately and then offered a purport of them by SBVNM. SVCT's commentary,as well as the translations of some verses are indeed included in SBVNM's translation and commentary called: Srî Bindu-vikåsinî-vrtti, or the commentary that reveals the meaning of Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu That is why on the cover of the book it says Translation and Commentary by SSBVNM. SBVNM does use marks whenever he refers to Cakravartipada's commentary on verses that came from the BRS of Srila Rupa Gosvami. for example: On pp. 138. of Bhakti-rasamarta-sindhu-bindu,within the "Comment" SBVNM writes; "In his commentary on this verse Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written as follows: "When the previously mentioned. . ." and SBVNM gives some translation of SVCT's comments and it is clearly indicated by quotation marks. Then SBVNM writes on pp 139: "In his commentary on SCc, Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained this verse in simple and straightforward language. We are citing his words here for the benefit of the reader. . ." like that. At the bottom of the page after ". . . delight." the lotus logo is there to indicated the end of SBVNM's "Comment." and then on p. 140 his Translation and Commentary of verse 12 continues. Kindly re-examine the introduction and the matter is very clear. The book very clearly says on the cover page Translation and commentary by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Naryana Maharaja. In the introduction the publishers clearly states that this translation AND commentary are called "Sri Bindu-vikasini-vrtti, Illumination of the meaning of Sri Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu-bindu. In the first line of this commentary on verse 1, SBVNM offers obeisances at the lotus feet of his spirtual master, nitya-lila pravista om visnupada astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnan Kesva Gosvami; Sri RUpa Gosvami, who is the eternal associate of Lord Gauranga; all the spiritual masters who are following in the line of Sri Rupa Gosvami, and Sri Sri Gauranga Gandharvika Giridhari Sri Sri Radhda-Vinoda-bihari. He prays for their causeless mercy and blessings etc. Anything placed after "Comment" are additional remarks from SBVNM. Srila BVNM was explaining the second anga of bhakti, and diksa in his translation and commentary. The part you can't digest or accept is simply his repetition of what Srila Jiva Govami has written in his Bhakti-sandharba on the topic of harinam and mantra. SBVNM doesn't invent anything or make up his own meanings, but simply repeats what is being given to us by our predecessor acaryas. Guru, sadhu and shastra. Throughout the entire book SBVNM always corrobates his statements with shastric references, as did HDGSACBSP throughout his purports and as did SBSST throughout his writing as well. .

And exerpt from Brsb to illustrate format explained in introduction, some translation and commentary re mantra Verse 4 The Sixty-four Limbs of Bhajana atha bhajanasya catuh-sas†ir angani sri-guru-padasraya˙, sri-krsna-diksa-siksadi, sri-guru-seva, sadhu-marganusara˙, bhajana-riti-prasnah˙, sri-krsna-pritaye bhogadi-tyaga˙, tirtha-vasah˙ tirtha-mahatmya-sravanam ca, sva-bhakti- nirvahanurupa-bhojanadi-svikaram, ekadas-vratam, asvattha-tulasi-dhatri-go-brahmana-vaisnava-sammanam ­ purvadaca-grahanam. para-dasa-tyaga-- ­asadhu-sanga-tyagah˙, bahu-sisya-karana-tyaga, bahu-arambha-tyagah, bahu-sastra-vyakhya-vivadadi-tyaga, vyavahare karpa√ya-tyaga˙, coka-krodhadi-tyagah, devatantara-ninda-tyagah, pranimatre udvega-tyagah, sevaparadha-namaparadha-tyagah, guru-krsna-bhakta-ninda-sahana-tyaga˙. vaisnava-cihna-dharanam, harinamaksara-dharanam, nirmalya-dharanam, nrtyam, dandavat-pranamam, abhyutthanam, anuvrajya, sri-murti-sthane gamanaμ, parikrama, puja, paricarya, gitam, sa∫kirtanam, japa˙, stava-patha˙, mahaprasada- seva, vijnapti˙, caranamrta-panam, dhupa-malyadi-saurabha- grahanam, sri-murti-darsanam, sri-murti-sparcanam, aratrika-darsanam, sravanam, tat-krpapeksanam, smaranam, dhyanam, dasyam, sakhyam, atma-nivedanam, nija-priya-vastu-samarpanam krsnarthe samasta-karma-karanam sarvatha saranapatti˙, tulasi-seva, vaisnava-sastra-seva, mathura-mandale vasah, vaisnava-seva, yatha-sakti doladi-mahotsava-karanam, karttika-vratam, sarvada harinama-grahamnam- janmastami-yatradikam ca evaμ unasasti bhakty angani; atha tatra panca angani sarvath˙ sresthani yatha ­ srimurti- seva-kausalam, rasikaih saha sri-bhagavatarthasvada˙, sajatiya-snigdha-mahattara-sadhu-sangah, nama-sankirtanam sri-vrndavana-vasa˙ evam militva catuh˙-sasty angani. Beginning of Translation and Commentary by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja of Verse 4. Sri Bindu-vikasini-vrtti (1) Sri-guru-padasraya Taking shelter at the lotus feet of Sri Guru "In all the scriptures that promote bhakti the unlimited glories of Sri Guru have been described. Without taking shelter at the lotus feet of a sad-guru it is impossible to enter into the realm of bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore, out of all the limbs of bhakti, sadguru-padacraya has been cited first. It is the duty of all faithful persons who have a desire for bhagavad-bhakti to take shelter at the lotus feet of a spiritual master who is a genuine preceptor of the sastras expounding the glories of Bhagavan and who is expert in understanding and explaining the mantras describing Bhagavan. All anarthas are easily removed only by the mercy of such a genuine spiritual master and thus one also obtains the supreme favour of Bhagavan. By the mercy of Sri Guru all anarthas are easily destroyed. Srila Jiva Gosvami has demonstrated this in his Bhakti-sandarbha ( Anuccheda 237) by citing the evidence of various sastras. He has explained this by the statement of Brahmaji as well: yo mantra˙sa guru˙ saksat yo guru˙sa hari˙svayamgurur yasya bhavet tustas tasya tusto hari˙ svayam The mantra(which is given by the guru) is itself the guru, and the guru is directly the Supreme Lord Hari. He upon whom the spiritual master is pleased also obtains the pleasure of Sri Hari Himself. Comment The gurus internal, spiritual mood of service to Sri Radhika and Krsna is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of a mantra .Everything is given in seed form within the mantra. At first the discple will not be able to understand, but by performing sadhana and bhajana under the guidance of Sri Gurudeva and by meditating on the mantra given by him, gradually everything will be revealed. Therefore, it is said here that the mantra is the direct representation of Sri Gurudeva.. . . " pp.42-112 offer similar translation and commentary on the next 63 angas of bhakti. It is clear enough that the original slokas are from Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and the rest is a compilation of other references, shastras and observations by SBVNM. We are sorry if this book displeases anyone, but what can be done. Everyone is welcome to examine it on their own and make their own assessment.

Earlier in the thread Shiva remarked: If one had no faith or trust in Srila Prabhupada then one could conceivably criticise his Summary study of the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, The Nectar of Devotion for the same reason. Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja's translation of BRS http://bvml.org/SHBM/index.htm contains the original sanksrit slokas with word for word translations, but Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Nectar of Devotion is completely in English without even one single verse offered in deva nagari or directly translated from the original shastra by Srila Rupa Gosvami. Regardless, the publishers of Srila Narayana Maharja's translation of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindh-bindu have done their best to explain the format of the translation and commentary despite the opinion that Introduction Srî Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu, a drop of the nectarean ocean of devotional mellows, is a brief summary of the essential topics from Srî Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu. It consists of twenty-seven verses, some of which were taken from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu, but most of which were written by Srîla Visvanåtha Cakravartî Thåkura in Sanskrit. Our esteemed Srîla Gurudeva, Om Visnuupåda paramahamsa parivråjakåcårya astottara-sata Srî Srîmad Bhaktivedånta Nåråyana Mahåråja, has given an illuminating translation of these verses into Hindi. His translation and commentary is named Srî Bindu-vikåsinî-vrtti, or the commentary that reveals the meaning of Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu. In this commentary he has expanded the subject matter by including Srîla Cakravartipåda’s own commentary to the verses that were taken from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu. He has also drawn additional material from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu and relevant verses from Srîmad-Bhågavatam, Srî Caitanya-caritåmrta, Hari-bhakti-vilåsa, Bhaktisandarbha and other scriptures. In addition, he has made very significant comments to facilitate comprehension of the subject matter. Some of these comments were footnotes to his original Hindi commentary and others were spoken by him in English. These comments are identified in this edition simply as “Comment”. The end of such comments are indicated by a lotus flower symbol, at which point the text returns to the translation of Srîla Gurudeva’s Bindu-vikåsinî commentary. The first English edition of Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu was published in April 1996, just before Srîla Gurudeva’s first preaching tour of Western countries. In this second edition several improvements have been made to help the reader assimilate the material. First, the presentation of the material has been made simpler and more direct. Secondly, the typography throughout has been made consistent and the layout has been brought up to a professional standard. Thirdly, the text has been lightly edited in places to improve its clarity. In the first edition of this book, the sequence of Verses 22­-5 was changed from Srila Cakravartipada’s original sequence in order to accommodate the additional material taken from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. In this second edition we have changed one of those verses back to reflect the author’s original sequence, but we left three still differing from it. This has been done to ensure that, in light of the abundance of material added from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, the subject matter is presented to the reader in the most logical and effective manner. Further, the explanations of the primary and secondary rasas found in the second half of the book are in places rather intricate. To aid comprehension of these topics, the reader is advised to refer back as needed to the chart entitled “Components of bhakti-rasa” on p. 151. Finally, we would like to briefly mention the contribution made to our sampradaya in the modern era by nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada astottara-sata Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Single-handedly, and in a relatively short span of time, he introduced the science of Krsna-bhakti to the English speaking world. He was an intimate friend of Srila Gurudeva, and in 1972 he published an excellent summary study of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu entitled Nectar of Devotion. Praying that thiscurrent work be pleasing to both Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada, we are confident that it will be appreciated by devotees who are eager to taste a drop of the nectarean ocean of bhakti-rasa.Aspirants for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas, Prema-vilasa dasa / Lava∫ga-lata dasi Moksada Ekadasi 15th December, 2002 Gopinatha-bhavana, Sri Vrndavana xvi A free download of this book is available here: http://bvml.org/SBNM/books/index.html

I have read and re read this lecture several times since this thread started and am more convinced of it's efficacy each time I examine it. The Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation by Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Hilo, Hawaii: January 13, 2003 http://bvml.org/SBNM/tanosi.html There are very clear statements in this lecture concerning the examples of our acaryas. ". . . If there is no necessity to accept diksa-mantra, why did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada take second initiation from Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji Maharaja, and why did he give diksa initiation to all of his disciples? Parama-pujyapada Srila Sridhara Gosvami Maharaja also took diksa from him. If there is no necessity, why did Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura give diksa initiation, and why did his disciples accept it? Not only that, Brahma received kama-gayatri and Gopal-mantra from Krsna Himself. Brahma then gave the diksa-mantra to Sri Narada Rsi, and Narada gave it to so many disciples. Narada not only gave harinama to Dhruva Maharaja; he gave him diksa by the mantra: om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took initiation from Sri Isvara Puripada, who first gave Him harinama, and to purify that chanting of nama, he gave Him Gopal-mantra. Gopal-mantra is transcendental and ever-existing, and it gives a relationship with Krsna as Gopijana-vallabha. We should consider all this evidence. All the acaryas in our guru-parampara have accepted second initiation from a bona fide guru. Can those who say that harinama is sufficient for conditioned souls name any acarya in our guru-parampara who has not taken diksa initiation? Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and the Six Gosvamis took second initiation, and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada took it. Why did they take diksa initiation if it is not essential? You should know the gravity of this truth. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Advaita Acarya, Sri Gadadhara Pandita, Sri Isvara Puri, and Sri Madhavendra Puri have all taken diksa. Why, then, should we not take it? Why is it not essential? If it is not essential, then why did Sri Sanatana Gosvami write about it in his Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa? Why did Sri Gopal Bhatta Gosvami also write about it? Did he say it was useless? Those who say that diksa is not essential will not be able to answer these questions in hundreds and millions of years. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took initiation even though he is the Lord of lords — Radha and Krsna combined — and yet He went to Gaya and took initiation. He vividly explained this fact in a gathering of sannyasis in Kasi when those sannyasis asked Him, "O, You are a very young and qualified sannyasi. Why do you not hear Vedanta? Why do you engage in singing and dancing and rolling on the ground? A sannyasi should not dance and do all these things." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied by telling them of the order of His guru, Sri Isvara Puripada : Mahaprabhu said, "Guru mora murkha dekhi — My Guru Maharaja told me that because I am foolish and unintelligent, I am not qualified to study Vedanta. He said that instead I should always chant Hare Krsna and I should remember this verse: harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 17.21) ["In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari."] But Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu not only took harinama from His gurudeva; He also took second initiation through the Gopal-mantra. In our parampara, in order to purify one's chanting and to and give the chanter a relationship with Krsna who has kindly taken the form of His holy name, the Gopal-mantra is given along with harinama. Up until Caitanya Mahaprabhu's manifested pastimes only the Gopal-mantra was given. Later, Srila Dhyanacandra Gosvami and Srila Gopal-guru Gosvami gave the regulations we now follow. They gave brahma-gayatri, guru-mantra, guru-gayatri, gaura-mantra, gaura-gayatri, krsna-mantra (Gopal-mantra) and finally kama-gayatri. This is the process followed in our sampradaya as begun by Srila Gopal-guru Gosvami, who is a disciple of Vakresvara Pandita, who is an associate of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. . ."

Also with respect! No one is disputing the words of Srila Bhakti Raksak Maharaja. "Gayatri may not be necessary." The only difference in understanding is between shiva,theist and whoever bhaktisar is and myself, as to how to apply "may not". Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja also said: : "The holy name is sufficient. The holy name is very powerful and can fulfill all desires. The name will even give vraja-prema. What, then, is the need of taking initiation? The paper has quoted my statement, along with the statement of Prapujya-carana Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja; so I want to reconcile all statements. It is true that diksa-purascarya (initiation and the purificatory activities performed before initiation) is not needed in all circumstances; but we should know something about the actual meaning of this verse. . ." The simple truth is that theist, shiva and whoever bhaktisar is don't have any faith in Srila Narayana Maharaja and don't accept his further explanation on this topic. As they wish. However this has become a tal fruit discussion , like any rtvk debate, with no end and no resolution that is only going to generate unecessary aparadha if it goes on much longer. Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharja has deep appreciation for his guru maharaja's explanations of gayatri. We can read two darshans in full on this topic here: http://www.dailydarshan.com/arc/2003/030118.html Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharja doesn't neglect gayatri mantra. Does he not chant his annick thrice daily, and with regulation? Does he not advocate the same sadhana for his disciples? Did he ever instruct anyone to stop chanting it? Did Gopal Guru Gosvami, Srila Sanatana and Srila Rupa ever abandon this aspect of sadhana? Aren't we supposed to follow the example of our acaryas when it comes to practical application of how to execute bhakti-yoga? Once I discussed this matter with Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Gosvami Maharaja. He was very firm on the point that the maha-mantra is all in all, and has everything. He also added, that we "take help from the sampradaya mantras." Seems to me we need all the help we can get in kali yuga if we want to actually get free from the bodily conception of life.

excerpted from <CENTER>Pancha Samskara: The Process of Initiation </CENTER><CENTER>by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura </CENTER> http://bvml.org/SBTP/pstpoi.html ". . . Nama or name is the third samskara. Mercifully the teacher utters the name of Hari into the ear of the faithful student. This name is to be recited daily by the student. [Receiving name means that one understands one's self to be a servant of Hari. During initiation the teacher also gives a personal name to the student which indicates devotion to Hari. In the Sri Sampradaya of Ramanuja, names like Rama Krishna Dasa, Narayana Dasa, Ramanuja Dasa etc. are given. In the Gaudiya Sampradaya names such as Sri Govinda Dasa, Sri Nityananda Dasa, Sri Chaitanya Dasa etc. are used. Since the time of Sriman Mahaprabhu names like Ratnabahu, Kavikarnapura, Premanidhi etc. have been used. Subsequently even names such as Bhagavatabhusana, Gitabhusana, Bhaktibhusana etc. are employed.] The fourth samskara is mantra. Out of his mercy the teacher gives an 18 syllable mantra to his beloved student. [Mantra is the recitation of a short prayer which corresponds to the particular deity one worships. In the worship of Krishna an 18 syllable mantra is given.] The fifth and final samskara is yaga or deity worship. Using the mantra which he has received from his teacher, the student begins the worship of salagrama sila or sri murti, the Deity of Vishnu. This is known as yaga. By receiving panca-samskara, the five sacraments, a faithful person enters into bhajana-kriya or the personal worship of God, which eventually leads to pure love for Sri Hari. When we analyze the stages that lead to love of God, we understand that faith or sraddha is the first stage. Without sraddha, there is no way to obtain love of God. From faith, one seeks saintly association which is called sadhu-sanga. This leads to shelter at the feet of a spiritual teacher. Thereafter, panca-samskara or initiation follows. Panca-samskara gives rise to bhajana-kriya or the personal worship of God. Bhajana-kriya leads to anartha-nivrtti, which is the stage where one clears up unwanted things from his heart. After anartha-nivrtti one's faith can develop and enters the stage called nistha or mature faith. From nistha, taste or ruci develops. This leads to the stage of asakti or deep attachment. From asakti spiritual emotions called bhava spring forth. This eventually ripens into the stage called love of God, prema. Therefore, everyone should seek shelter at the feet of a spiritual teacher and receive panca-samskara, which is the source of bhajana. Without panca-samskara, bhajana is not spontaneous. Instead, it is performed with difficulty. Some people think that prema or love of God can be obtained without panca-samskara. This is incorrect. The conditioned soul in this world has become hostile to the Divine, and consequently his original spiritual nature has become distorted. As a result he must sanctify himself before that true spiritual nature can develop.And what is the means to attain this pure state? The best way is through samskara or sanctification. Without samskara how can his distorted nature be given up? If we see someone whose nature is not distorted then we think that in a previous birth, through the mercy of a spiritual teacher, he must have received samskara, and on the strength of that samskara he has attained his true spiritual nature wherein prema or love of God has arisen. Otherwise we think that this person has been imperceptibly sanctified by the inconceivable mercy of the Lord Himself. No matter how you look at it, samskara is always there. On the other hand, samskara is not necessary for liberated persons because their nature is not distorted. Distortion of the soul's original spiritual nature is the cause of his bondage in this world. For this reason, without samskara the life of the conditioned soul is impure. Even if a person has attained prema on account of previous samskara, still in his present life he again receives samskara in order to set a proper example for the good of all. . . " Looks like SBT will stay on the list.

The suggestion that Srila Narayana Maharaja disagrees with Mahaprabhu because of how YOU interpret shastra, is offensive. Srila Naryana Maharaja certainly is saying that it is impossible to chant the suddha nama without diska samskara if you are a neophyte in the "first stages" of bhakti. He said: [srila Narayana Maharaja:] I think you have all understood the argument; now you should try very carefully to understand the reply so that you can reconcile all the statements. Someone has presented the idea that the acceptance of diksa is not essential, and he has indirectly indicated the verse: diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare ["One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus, even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered."] The holy name is sufficient. The holy name is very powerful and can fulfill all desires. The name will even give vraja-prema. What, then, is the need of taking initiation? The paper has quoted my statement, along with the statement of Prapujya-carana Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja; so I want to reconcile all statements. It is true that diksa-purascarya (initiation and the purificatory activities performed before initiation) is not needed in all circumstances; but we should know something about the actual meaning of this verse. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada has written a book of rules and regulations in deity worship called Arcana Dipika, and there he has explained that harinama is bhagavata-svarupa, the actual form of Krsna and Radha, and for this reason it is stated in Sri Siksastakam, "Param vijayate sri krsna-sankirtana." By chanting and remembering Krsna's names, all kinds of perfection — like vraja-prema and even radha-dasya (becoming a maid servant of Srimati Radhika) — can be attained. In the first stage, however, when a devotee is uttering the holy name he is full with many aparadhas, and also anarthas such as laya (sleep), viksepa (distraction), apratipatti (indifference or disinterest in spiritual topics), and so on. It is guaranteed that such a person cannot utter the pure name. Rather, his chanting will be nama-aparadha. Chanting the pure name is only possible after the diksa-samskara. . . " It is not my opinion. I don't presume to think I can understand anything concerning spiritual life better than our acaryas do. In this day and age there seem to be plenty of aspiring devotees who think they can go Back to Godhead without any sad guru. You are not alone, there are so many misconceptions about Krsna Consciousness that are spreading like germs of plague. And if you aren't bhaktisar then you better identify yourself. btw who is your spiritual master. We know shiva doesn't have one or think he needs one. What about you?

I think I might have put up one or two short observations when I forgot to log in, but I'm not at all hesitant to use my own name. You can have my address and phone number and email also, if you want to speak to me.

I am not trying to tell you (Bhaktisar / Aranya mj) and shiva anything. None so blind as will not see, none so deaf as will not hear. Frankly I'm only trying to repeat the instructions and observations of our guru varga for anyone else who might take interest.. No one comes off the list. They all agree that we should take shelter at the lotus feet of a sad guru. Know any sad guru since SBSST who did not accept diksa himself, and did not offer it to his sincere followers? I think not. The apasiddhanta stays in your camp, not mine. Anyway the moderator can read your isp, so you should really use your own name. You are still on line. Nothing more to say?

And when is it not necessary? When you chant suddha nama, otherwise not. Why does that point escape you. ". . . one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary. We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all." If you don't chant nam bhajana without offense that is another matter. Seems pretty straightforward to me. gayatrai manta may indeed not be necessary, and it may also be absolutely necessary. Depends on the quality of your nama bhajana.

That may be your conclusion. Uddhava was an intimate associate of the Lord in Mathura. Krsna sent him to the vraja to learn about vraja prema from Srimati Radharani and the gopis directly. Do you believe that what Sri Krsna instructed him will suffice for conditioned souls like us? You also won't find anything stated by Krsna in Bhagavad-gita about diksa being necessary. He does advise us to surrender to a guru in 4.34, and he does advise us to always remember Him in 9.34 . In the second chapter of the Gita when Arjuna surrenders to Sri Krsna and accepts him as his guru, they don't get off the chariot and hold a fire yajna, re name Arjuna and give him japa beads either. If you are Krsna's eternal friend like Arujuna, you can surrender directly to Sri Krnsa as he did without diksa. I can't find anything written in the Gita or Mahabharata, about Arjuna and the other Pandavas chanting japa mala or gayatri.We can read in the Srimad Bhagavatam that they left this world and went back to godhead in their self same bodies. Those bodies were not like ours. Should we cut off our brahmana threads and retire our bead bags and get a brahmastra weapon and other divine weapons? I think not.

Upanayana is the process of being connected to the Guru. This refers to the function of the shiksha Guru. The shiksha Gurus may be many, but the diksha Guru is only one. The shiksha Gurus are the associated counterparts of the diksha Guru who is the associated counterwhole of the Divinity Himself. There is thus only one diksha Guru who is associated with his infinity of agents or limbs whose function is to lead the intending disciple to the diksha Guru. The diksha Guru may, indeed, be also the shiksha Guru, but not necessarily so. The distinction between the shiksha Guru and the diksha Guru is one relating to their respective spiritual functions which do not involve any unwholesome implication of inferiority in the mundane sense. The shiksha Guru is, therefore, to be as much obeyed by the disciple as the diksha Guru himself.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> The function of diksha, in its ritualistic aspect, consists of the process of imparting the mantra by the diksha Guru which is spoken by him into the ear of the disciple without being allowed to be heard by any other person. It is the method of Truth communicating Himself to an individual soul in the Form of the Transcendental sound Appearing on the lips of His devotee. The mantra, as we have explained elsewhere, is the Holy Name in the Form in which He is coupled with the process of self dedication of an individual to the Guru. It is a specific matter that delivers the particular individual from the grip of all mental delusion by making him throw himself on the protection of the Name under the exclusive direction of the Guru. The process of initiation is not a limited one. It is as much a continued process as the process of being helped by the shiksha Guru for approaching the diksha Guru. No one of these processes is capable of terminating is a limited result. They are eternally co-present in a relation that is progressive but without being hampered by the unwholesome imperfection of the principle of limitation.<o:p></o:p> It has been necessary to explain the process of entry into the spiritual life in some detail for several reasons. A good deal of misconception has gathered round the issue. This misconception is responsible for the mushroom growth of an endless variety of pseudo-forms of the process that are being constantly manufactured by quacks and knaves for leading astray simpletons and rascals, by the offer of their support to diverse forms of pernicious worldly activities. It is not also easy to withstand the temptation of being misled by the appeal to the principle of pseudo-ethics manufactured by intellectualists for justifying a life of the sensualists’ paradise for belittling the spiritual issue which transcends the petty concerns of a nine days’ existence. It is absolutely necessary to have this sense of perspective, if one is not to miss the only purpose for which the subject, treated in this work has been offered to his unbiased and serious consideration. . .. We only invite our readers to lend their receptive ear to the narration of the actual conduct of Nimai Pandit, as He manifested Himself to this world, after He had received spiritual enlightenment by unconditional submission to the feet of the bona fide spiritual Guide. By the process of diksha, with the intention of trying to enter the spirit of the same from the point of view of the Narrative itself that has been handed down by the succession of the spiritual teachers.<o:p></o:p> The boon for which Nimai Pandit prayed to Sree Iswara Puri, was love for Krishna. He surrendered to Sree Iswara Puri His Body and Mind unconditionally for the attainment of the above purpose. When one obtains the actual sight of the bona fide Spiritual Guide, that is of the real exclusive servant of the Absolute, by the grace of Godhead, the duty, that he has to perform on his side, is to make the unconditional surrender of himself to the Feet of the bona fide agent of the Absolute. This is the logical and consistent course but is impossible of realization in practice except by divine grace.<o:p></o:p> If the complete surrender to the Guru is made the spiritual mantra reveals himself to the disciple. . . excerpted from : The Career and Teachings of the Supreme Lord Sree Krishna-Chaitanya by Sri Narayan Das Bhakti Sadhukar<o:p></o:p> CHAPTER XXIII<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> HIS INITIATION—(Cont.)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> http://www.bvml.org/contemporary/TCATOTSLSKC/23.html Read the entire article and then kindly put Mahaprabhu back on the list along with His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. <o:p></o:p>

If you and Shiva and Theist agree to join me and stop posting then I will gladly join you all.

Not funny at all. Read the purport: TEXT 108 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> diksa--initiation; purascarya--activities before initiation; vidhi--regulative principles; apeksa--reliance on; na--not; kare--does; jihva--the tongue; sparse--by touching; a-candala--even to the lowest of men, the candala; sabare--everyone; uddhare--delivers. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283): <o:p></o:p> divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sanksayam tasmad dikseti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih <o:p></o:p> "Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." The regulative principles of diksa are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated: <o:p></o:p> dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadisu yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu tathatradiksitanam tu mantra-devarcanadisu nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam <o:p></o:p> "Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly." According to the Vaisnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala: <o:p></o:p> adiksitasya vamoru krtam sarvam nirarthakam pasu-yonim avapnoti diksa-virahito janah <o:p></o:p> "Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species." Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes: <o:p></o:p> ato gurum pranamyaivam sarva-svam vinivedya ca grhniyad vaisnavam mantram diksa-purvam vidhanatah <o:p></o:p> "It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take a Vaisnava initiation from him." The Bhakti-sandarbha (298) gives the following quotation from the Tattva-sagara: <o:p></o:p> yatha kancanatam yati kasyam rasa-vidhanatah tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam <o:p></o:p> "By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brahmana." The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.11,12) in discussing the purascarya process, quotes the following verses from Agastya-samhita: <o:p></o:p> puja traikaliki nityam japas tarpanam eva ca homo brahmana-bhuktis ca purascaranam ucyate <o:p></o:p> guror labdhasya mantrasya prasadena yatha-vidhi pancangopasana-siddhyai puras caitad vidhiyate <o:p></o:p> "In the morning, afternoon and evening, one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Krsna mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice, and feed the brahmanas. These five activities constitute purascarya. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these purascarya processes." The word purah means "before" and carya means "activities." Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months. In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.4,5,7) it is stated: <o:p></o:p> vina yena na siddhah syan mantro varsa-satair api krtena yena labhate sadhako vanchitam phalam <o:p></o:p> purascarana-sampanno mantro hi phala-dhayakah atah puraskriyam kuryat mantravit siddhi-kanksaya <o:p></o:p> puraskriya hi mantranam pradhanam viryam ucyate virya-hino yatha dehi sarva-karmasu na ksamah purascarana-hino hi tatha mantrah prakirtitah <o:p></o:p> "Without performing the purascarya activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. However, one who has undergone the purascarya-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the purascarya activities. The purascarya process is the life-force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life-force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of purascarya-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected." In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283), Srila Jiva Gosvami states: <o:p></o:p> yadyapi sri-bhagavata-mate pancaratradi-vat arcana-margasya avasyakatvam nasti, tad vinapi saranapattyadinam ekatarenapi purusartha-siddher abhihitatvat, tathapi sri-naradadi-vartmanusaradbhih sri-bhagavata saha sambandha-visesam diksa-vidhanena sri-guru-carana-sampaditam cikirsadbhih krtayam diksayam arcanam avasyam kriyetaiva. <o:p></o:p> Of similar importance is diksa, which is explained as follows in Bhakti-sandarbha (284): <o:p></o:p> yadyapi svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kardaya-silanam viksipta-cittanam jananam tat-tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rsi-prabhrtibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti. <o:p></o:p> Similarly in the Ramarcana-candrika it is stated: <o:p></o:p> vinaiva diksam viprendra purascaryam vinaiva hi vinaiva nyasa-vidhina japa-matrena siddhida <o:p></o:p> In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, he can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 7.73): <o:p></o:p> krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana <o:p></o:p> "Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord." The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva-it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization. <o:p></o:p> atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah <o:p></o:p> According to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 17.134): <o:p></o:p> ataeva krsnera 'nama', 'deha', 'vilasa' prakrtendriya-grahya nahe, haya sva-prakasa <o:p></o:p> "With these material senses, one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. However, when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed." Cc. Madhya 15,108 This purport doesn't offer initiation as an option. Interesting that Srila Prabhupada also refered to Srila Jiva Gosvami's Bhakti Sandharba anuucheda 283-4 in discussing the topic. You better keep him on the list.

What is there about the highlighted words that escapes you?

If we meet Srila Haridas Thakura, and are present on the planet in proximity to the lila of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then perhaps we can follow suit, otherwise not. We are all on the earth planet some 500 years removed from Gaura lila, and His representatives are not advocating nama bhajan without also accepting the purasacarya system and diksa. The purport to Cc. Madhya 15.108 speaks for itself for anyone who wants to take the time to read it. http://bvml.org/books/CC/madhya/15.html ". . . one who fully engages in chanting the holy name. need not depend upon the process of initiation, . . ." And if you don't or can't fully engage in chanting the holy name it seems pretty logical to then depend, or take assistance from the process of initiation. This has become a tal fruit discussion based on who you trust. I think the thread should be closed and everyone should just do 64 rounds of nama bhajana every day instead of posting and try to fully chant the holy names.

The links on the list are hot. Kindly point out to me the unequivocal statements from anyone on this list that discourage anyone from following the first two angas of bhakti, as Srila Rupa Gosvami gave them. "need not necessarily" doesn't apply to conditioned souls in general, ony to liberated souls. Srila Sridhar Maharaja by his example both accepted and gave diksa mantras. Are you against anyone following his example?

Not so. Gurun is plural. Anything I've posted on this topic is not my own opinion or that of only Srila Narayana Maharaja.My only concern is that your opinions misrepresent Gaudiya Vaisnavism, and will not help anyone As much as you may try you cannot divorce the principles of guru-tattva from the topic. Then the following list are inexperienced by your calculation. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Srila Nityananda Prabhu | Sri Advaita Acarya Srila Sanatana Goswami | Srila Rupa Goswami | Srila Jiva Goswami Vaisnava Saints Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura Prabhupada Sri Srimad Srila Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji Maharaja Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada | Video Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswami Sri Srimad Bhakti Saranga Gosvami Maharaja Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Sri Srimad Bhakti Sri-rupa Siddhanti Gosvami Maharaja Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja Srila Bhakti Kusum Sraman Goswami Maharaja Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja | Books | Audio Srila Bhakti Kumud Santa Maharaja Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami Maharaja | Audio | Video Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada | Books | Photos | Audio | Videos Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja | Audio Srila Bhaktivedanta Vamana Maharaja Srila Bhaktivedanta Trivikrama Maharaja | Video Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja | Books | Photos | Audio | Videos Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaja Srila Bhakti Bibudha Bodhayan Maharaja

You certainly have your opinion in this regard, and it is as apasiddhanta as anyone can get. Srila Prabhupada writes: " . . . One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding. Cc. Adi lila 1.35 purport And as I said before it is quite useless to try and discuss guru-tattva with someone who has no faith in the principle. If you dont believe what Krsna says in Bg. 4.34 then we have no discussion and it is most likely that because you don't believe in guru Krsna never directed you to one.

Shiva, It is very clear that you don't accept Srila Narayana Maharaja's explanations or translations. As you wish. Perhaps you should take shelter and initiation from Sripad Tripurari Swami as you find his explanation of svarupa jnana satsfying. I personally don't see anything in his explanation that contradicts what Srila Narayana Maharaja is teaching about second initiation. If a sadhaka realizes the svarupa of suddha bhakti, how is that separate from realization of his svarupa siddhi. Seems to me that according to the teachings of our acaryas they are intimately connected. Consider that if one can realize of the istadeva of the guru gayatrai mantra, then how he can understand that without realizing his own svarupa (form)as well? Sripad Tirupari Maharaja is explaining why Gaudiya Vaisnavas rely on realization of their svarupa siddhi from their nama bhajana, and under SBSST's direction generally refrain from hearing about the ekadasi bhavas (siddha pranali) seperately or before they are qualified by adhikara to realize them. The whole point of this discussion is that chanting the sampradaya mantras under the direciton of Sri Guru assists the devotee to become free from anarthas, in various ways, and allows him to one day realize the depth of the maha mantra, that Krsna is non different than His name, fame form and pastimes. God realizationl, self realization, realization of svarupa siddhi, suddha bhakti, are all connected to each other. Not one without the others. Why not chant harinama and gayatri-mantra as well? If we want full understanding and realization of what is in the Hare Krsna mantra, because we are still conditioned souls, why not chant the gayatri mantras? You and theist don't want to hear those mantras from anyone. As you wish. You only deprive yourself. In his lecture under discussion Srila Narayana Maharaja said: " The gayatri-mantra gives all kinds of divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge, including the knowledge of krsna-tattva and jiva-tattva, and it also gives a relationship with Krsna. Nama alone will not give this relation to the person filled with anarthas." filled with anarthas, don't avoid these words. How to get to suddha nama? Following the order of sad guru is the key. How can you get to that point alone, with no guidance? Srila Sridhara Maharaja makes the same point in his explanation of the two circles and further explains how the brahma gayatri indicates Radha dasya, in his wonderful commentary on it. Srila Narayana Maharaja teaches the same thing Srila Prabhupada makes wonderful points about kama-gayatri in the Teachings of Lord Chaitanya Ch. 31, All of our acaryas are teaching the same thing regarding diksa mantras. It is easy to make many false assumptions by reading shastra without hearing from anyone who is shastra saksus. No one but you ever assumed that these mantras work like instant cup of noodles or some mystical touchstone. That is your false conclusion from reading without hearing. The sampradaya mantras are part of a whole process of devotional practices, of which chanting the maha mantra is the prime and essential element. The diksa process is taken in context of many things. There is no need to minimize the importance of the kama-gayatri mantra, and mentioning its glory in no way minimizes the glory of the Holy Name. If you can offer us an example of any bhaddha jiva who got beyond anartha nvrtti stage without the help of diksa from a sad guru I'd like to know who he is.

*His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada confirms the identity of the sad-guru in this purport to Cc. Adi 1.46: ". . . Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gaudiya Vaisnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient scriptures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu. Cc. Adi lila 1.46, purport His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has written in his purport to Cc. Adi lila 1.47 ". . . There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service. Cc. 1.47 The initiating spiritual master is a personal manifestation of Srila Madana-mohana vigraha, whereas the instructing spiritual master is a personal representative of Srila Govindadeva vigraha. Both of these Deities are worshiped at Vrndavana. Srila Gopinatha is the ultimate attraction in spiritual realization. Cc. 1.46 purport A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Cc. Adi lila 1.35