Puru_Das

Mark, I am more than willing to admit that it is a mistake for me to try and discuss the value of sadhu sanga and the meaning of adau sraddha tatah sadhu sanga with you. Thank you for any excellent points you may have made that I have missed due to my own false prestige. I will certaily go back and re read the thread to try and find them, excellent as they must be, since you say so. Thank you for acknowledging that Srila Prabhupada had godbrothers who also rose above the mix. " Any who were beyond that platform are obviously not included in that group." I am glad you understand that point and agree with the statement HDG made in Cc. Adi lila 12.8 and the SB 4th Canto. I am also quite happy to have misunderstood your implication and I gladly retract my conclusion if it was off. However you also said "I wouldn't even have to bring up Srila Prabhupada's paramount position as contrasted by those he chastised repeatedly if disiciples of those would keep a zipped lip and not denigrate DIRECTLY BY THEIR OWN WORDS Srila Prabhupada's abilties and teachings and mission." You will have to be more specific so we don't come to any false conclusions about your remark. I've never heard anything but praise for Srila Prabhupada's abilities from the devotees I associate with. I did meet Yati Maharaja once in Mayapura. Because I knew he had written some things critical of Srila Prabhupada's translation of the Krsna Book and SB in his own English version of SB, I avoided the topic of guru with him. He was nevertheless, very kind and had nothing but nice things to say about all of the disciples of SBSST who left the Gaudiya Mission to start their own branches. "Paramount position should then apply to all of SBSST's disciples who actually followed him and were pure Vaisnavas" . That there was a distinction between His Divine Grace and certain of his godbrothers who did not follow SBSST is not in contention. That the details of Srila Prabhupada's seva were unique, that he was successful where other godbrothers may not have been as successful , to spread KC in the west and worldwide is clear. However I can't see the need to stress "Paramount position". I can't see how pure devotees are one better than the other. The details of their seva may differ, but pure devotion is pure devotion. My observation stands that it is unecessary to glorify the spiritual master at the expense of anyone else. One other small point is that all the disciples of SBSST are our spiritual uncles, and where it may have been time and circumstance preaching for His Divine Grace to have made statements about some of them and what some of them did or did not do, it seems to me improper Vaisnavsa etiquette for us to raise the issue. In Cc. Adi lila 12.10-11 Srila Prabhupada wrote: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT 10 <o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> acaryera mata yei, sei mata sara tanra ajna langhi' cale, sei ta' asara <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> acaryera--of the spiritual master (Advaita Prabhu); mata--opinion; yei--what is; sei--that; mata--opinion; sara--active principle; tanra--his; ajna--order; langhi'--transgressing; cale--becomes; sei--that; ta'--however; asara--useless. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> Here is the opinion of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless. <o:p></o:p> TEXT 11 <o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> asarera name ihan nahi prayojana bheda janibare kari ekatra ganana <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> asarera--of the useless persons; name--in their name; ihan--in this connection; nahi--there is no; prayojana--use; bheda--differences; janibare--to know; kari--I do; ekatra--in one list; ganana--counting. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> There is no need to name those who are useless. I have mentioned them only to distinguish them from the useful devotees. Mark just replace "mission" with "iskcon institution," since I certainly agree that Lord Caitanya's Movement is eternal and alive and well in the hearts of pure devotees. Theist, Vanih and vapuh are not in competitionwith each other.. Both have their importance and the importance of both should simply be understood in proper perspective of Srila Rupa Gosvami's 64 angas of bhakti. theist don't be bewildered. If a discussion of the difference between follower and initiated disciple, causes you mental grief. we can avoid that discussion. Your intent on these forums also baffeles me.

Try to understand that SBSST is addressing the followers of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura after his physical departure, maha-samadhi.. SBSST is telling SBT's folowers they must secure the guiding grace of the present living acarya,and not just rely on empiric study of the books of the predecessor acarya. It is understood that SBSST wants practitioners to follow the instructions of SBT. SBSST does not want followers of SBT to ignore the principle of , surrender,seva and submissive inquiry from the present living acarya. The same intructions are in His Divine Grace's books regarding guru, everywhere, in too numerous places to list all the quotes. What about the message he gave in the purport to Bg. 4.34? What does that mean, "internally accepting him as spiritual master.?" You can certainly become his follower by accepting his vanih and following his instructions, but no one has been able to become his initiated disciple since 1977. This is the rtvk myth, that you can be Srila Prabhupada's direct disciple after his nara lila ended. Srila Prabhupada writes very clearly in his books that only uttama adhikaris, fully self realized souls, can hear from caitya guru. One can accept any departed acarya as his shastra guru, but he still has to take harinama and diksa initiation from another member of the guru parampara, the predecessor acarya's successor. How does anyone "internally accept"any departed acarya as spiritual master when Srila Rupa Gosvami has clearly given the first two angas of bhakti and meant them to be followed in the context of a living sadhu. Of course we try to take shelter of the vanih of all the predecessor acaryas in our guru parampara. For success in spiritual life we are instructed by Srila Rupa Gosvami (62nd anga of bhakti) to establish sambhanda (relationship) and make friendship with sajatiya (like minded) and sngdha (affectionate) pure Vaisnavas. SBSST did not want any of SBT's followers to ignore this principle and His Divine Grace did not want any one to ignore it either. Well thanks for that. What is your reccomendation then to sincere followers of His Divine Grace as to how they can follow the vanih he gave us in his purport to Bg. 4.34.

"First of all they don't accept that the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is one of the sakhas, branches, of the Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya, although this fact has been clearly explained by Sri Kavi Karnipura, Srila Jiva Gosvami, and then by Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu. It has also been explained by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, by my Gurudeva, that is, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and also by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. Secondly, they think that Sri Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati are the same person, although there is so much difference between them. This cannot be so. Will a person of the Ramanuja Sampradaya go down to become a Mayavadi like Prakasananda Sarasvati, and then again become Prabhodananda Sarasvati, who was so exalted that he became the guru of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami? This idea is absurd. Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati were contemporaries. Will the same person go back and forth, being a Vaisnava in South India, then becoming a Mayavadi, again becoming a Vaisnava in Vrndavana, and again becoming a Mayavadi? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has vividly written about this, and great historians and research scholars have also rejected the idea that they are the same person. Thirdly, they don’t give proper honor to Sri Jiva Gosvami, and this is a very big blunder. This is a vital point. They say that Jiva Gosvami is of svakiya-bhava, that he never supported parakiya-bhava, and that he is against parakiya-bhava. They say that in his explanations of Srimad Bhagavatam and Brahma-samhita, in his own books like Gopala Campu, and especially in his Sri Ujjvala-nilamani tika, he has written against parakiya-bhava. This is their greatest blunder. We don’t accept their statements at all." an excerpt from the beginning of the article Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis Read the entire thing and then your question is answered.

We are not really friends, but thanks for the thought. Mark, your appreciation for Srila Prabhupada's causeless mercy, and empowered genius is duly noted and certainly shared by myself. One actual difference between us is that I don't see how it glorifies Srila Prabhupada to denegrate other disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. That His Divine Grace made a unique contribution to the whole world by transplanting KC outside of India and spreading it everywhere else on the planet I also appreciate and understand. Many of his real god brothers also understood his exalted seva to SBSST. They gave him the title Bhaktivedanta when he was still a householder, and Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja was one of the first to explain that HDG was a shakta-avesa avatara of Lord Nityananda's mercy. I was told that Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja told him before he gave him sannyasa, "If you do not accept 3rd intitiation then the world will not be saved." However, it is a typical symptom of Prabhupada fanatacism to make distinctions amongst Vaisnavas and to falsely imply that HDG was the only worthy disciple of SBSST who did pure service to His divine lotus feet. And please forgive me if you think this observation is putting words in your mouth as you did not actually say directly any such thing. I did say imply. It is simply a reaction to the tone of your post. ". . . Among Vaisnavas there may be some difference of opinion due to everyone's personal identity, but despite all personal differences, the cult of Krsna consciousness must go on. We can see that under the instructions of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja began preaching the Krsna consciousness movement in an organized way within the past hundred years. The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja are all Godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion, and although we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his own capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. As far as we are concerned, we have already started the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and many thousands of Europeans and Americans have joined this movement. Indeed, it is spreading like wildfire. The cult of Krsna consciousness, based on the nine principles of devotional service (sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam. arcanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam), will never be stopped. It will go on without distinction of caste, creed, color or country. No one can check it. SB4.28.31 Purport . In the beginning, during the presence of Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, all the disciples worked in agreement; but just after his disappearance, they disagreed. One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but another group created their own concoction about executing his desires. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of acarya, and they split into two factions over who the next acarya would be. . . Cc. Adi lila 12.8 Purport We know that some of SBSSTs disciple deviated and rejected SBSST altogether. Same thing happened when Nitai and others rejected Srila Prabhupada. His Divine Grace certainly had differences of opinion with some of his godbrothers about how SBSST's mission was managed after their founder-acarya departed. We also know that there was one group of Godbrothers "One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura" that he associated with after SBSST's maha-samadhi, and that he eventually lived with prior to moving to his rooms at the Radha Damodar Temple, after he accepted sannyasa initiation in Mathura at the Kesavji Guadiya Matha, from his godbrother Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja. You can read what His Divine Grace thought about his sannyasa guru directly here: <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD><CENTER>Lecture in Honor of Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja Seattle: 21 October 1968</CENTER> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Anyone who wants more information on His Divine Grace's pre America history can read: My Siksa Guru and Priya Bandhu [This is a collection of recollections and reflections about His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada from one of his earliest siksa followers and friends, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja. These descriptive accounts of his association with Srila Prabhupada span a long period of time, since they first met in 1947.] and Our Affectionate Guardians Unabridged unpublished version http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/ashrama/links/affectionate-guardians-fs.html Srila Narahari Sakara Thakura (the 40th branch of the Caitanya tree) has also left us some very nice instruction on how to positively see all Vaisnavas in his book Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita : If you don't mind my asking then, who have you heard from since 1977? What current association do you accept? Regardless, our only goal in this discussion should be to prove how wonderful Vaisnava association is, and to understand the benefit of following His Divine Grace's directions in Cc. Anty lila 5.131 and SB 1.2.18. to study the book Bhagavata in the association of the person Bhagavata. Tit for tat argument is a waste of everyone's time and energy. And here is another actual difference between us. I believe that the depth of the information in His Divine Grace's books, the information he left us about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,Sri Sr Radha Krsana, the Gosvamis, pure devotion, so many transcendental topics are so deep and vast, deeper than the deepest ocean, that it only serves our best interest to hear from other person Bhagavata Vaisnavas so that we can better appreciate the subject matter. We are never done hearing and our seva to the guru parampara is eternally under guidance. Place all the faith you want in your "sharp intellect and natural intelligence." I would rather trust other self realized souls and take their guidance and assistance over my own mind and intellect. Prabhupada's books are not ordinary books. The subject matter they illuminate can only be realized by mature devotion and surrender and by the mercy of our guru parampara. Sri gurun, plural. " The great devotee Uddhava once wrote a letter to Krsna, "My dear Krsna, I have just finished the study of all kinds of philosophical books and Vedic verses about the goal of life, and so now I have a little reputation for my studies. But still, in spite of my reputation, my knowledge is condemned, because although enjoying the effulgence of Vedic knowledge, I could not appreciate the effulgence emanating from the nails of Your toes. Therefore, the sooner my pride and Vedic knowledge are finished, the better it will be!" This is an example of indifference." NOD NO one has said that His Divine Grace's books cannot be understood directly. I am simply suggesting that they can be better undertsood and their depth more appreciated in the association of Vaisnavas who have actually realized the subject matter, "One who knows the subject matter, he can explain." One of my siskas guru's has explained: "Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura therefore says in his Sri Bhajana Rahasya that even if you have received nistha, you should hear from high-class devotees.There are two kinds of bhagavatas. One is the transcendental book bhagavata, which was received by Vyasa in his trance, and in which all kinds of very powerful and sweet pastimes of Krsna have been given. It is under lock and key, however. It can be only opened by the highest class of bhakta-bhagavata. These devotees have the key. Any ordinary bhakta, anyone who is in a stage lower than rati, cannot unlock it. Only one who has received suddha-sattva from an eternal parikara (associate) of Krsna, like Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and all the sad-Gosvamis, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, and others up to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Prabhupada, can open the lock.Don't lose the fortune to hear from superiors." SBVNM The only godbrothers of His Divince Grace that I have ever actually met are Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami and Srila Bhakti Kumud Santa Maharaja. When I met them they expressed love and affection for His Divine Grace and rememberd him fondly as their dear godbrother. Their association, though brief, only helped whatever effort I am making to advance in spiritual life. My siksa guru's are both grand disciples of SBSST, so kindly accept that small clarification. No one has said that anyone needs to "turn to his godbrothers". Hardly any of them are on the planet. If you understand His Divine Grace's books so well with your "sharp intellect and natural intelligence." then it behooves you to be sarcastic concerning the principle of accepting a siksa guru. Please forgive me if you think that is putting words in your mouth. It is simply a reaction to the tone your posts generate. . You believe that the conversation with Madhudvisa only applies to brand new devotees, and I believe His Divine Grace's reply goes much deeper and applies to all of us. It gives us direction, in His Divine Grace's physical absence, to learn from someone who understands the subject matter and it points us to sadhu-sanga and to siksa guru. That is another actual difference between us. How we have realized or not what His Divine Grace has said and written. TEXT 35 <?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana tanhara carana age kariye vandana <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> mantra-guru--the initiating spiritual master; ara--and also; yata--as many (as there are); siksa-guru-gana--all the instructing spiritual masters; tanhara--of all of them; carana--unto the lotus feet; age--at first; kariye--I offer; vandana--respectful obeisances. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his thesis Bhakti-sandarbha (202), has stated that uncontaminated devotional service is the objective of pure Vaisnavas and that one has to execute such service in the association of other devotees. By associating with devotees of Lord Krsna, one develops a sense of Krsna consciousness and thus becomes inclined toward the loving service of the Lord. This is the process of approaching the Supreme Lord by gradual appreciation in devotional service. If one desires unalloyed devotional service, one must associate with devotees of Sri Krsna, for by such association only can a conditioned soul achieve a taste for transcendental love and thus revive his eternal relationship with Godhead in a specific manifestation and in terms of the specific transcendental mellow (rasa) that one has eternally inherent in him. If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on. One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding. One last observation, if you please: Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja observed: God Consciousness vs. Society Consciousness Responding to the necessity of the times Srila Sridhara Maharaja lucidly explains the absolute societal conception of Krsna consciousness: Devotee: Within a religious mission, sectarian policies may appear to bar the path of progress and pragmatic concerns take precedence over spiritual ideals. Should one risk leaving the formal institution or should he try to remain within and work out the problems? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Progress means elimination and new acceptance. So, when there is a clash between the relative and the absolute standpoint, the relative must be left aside, and the absolute accepted. The example is given of a socialist in a country of capitalists. When there is a clash, one will not express their creed for the sake of peace. But to maintain the purity of their faith for the socialists they will try to leave and join the socialists. Higher Ideal So, the absolute and the relative are two different classes of interest. And we find more importance in the absolute interest. We must be sincere to our own creed. The form is necessary to help me in a general way to maintain my present position. At the same time, my conception of the higher ideal will always goad me to advance, to go forward, and wherever I do, I must follow the greater model, the greater ideal. Spiritual life is progressive, not stagnant. We are in the stage of sadhana, and we want to go ahead, not backwards. The formal position will help me to maintain my present status, and my extraordinary affinity for the ideal will goad me towards the front. The search for Sri Krsna is dynamic and living, so adjustment and readjustment is always going on. And we should also change our present position accordingly, so that we may not have to sacrifice the high ideal for which we have come. . . . Disappearance of the Guru Devotee: After the disappearance of the spiritual master, how should the disciples continue the mission? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: You must not neglect your conscience. Otherwise you have no faith in your own cause. There may be disturbances but we should not leave the preaching of Mahaprabhu, despite all differences. Disturbances must come, and we must undergo them. Still, we must remain sincere; we must face the difficulty in a proper way. It has come to train us to go in the right direction. The Fire has Come to Test Us What we have received from our spiritual master we understood only in a rough estimation. Now, things have come in such a way that we have to scrutinize ourselves in every position. We have to analyze ourselves. Atma-niksepa, self-analysis has begun. We are under trial. What we have received from our spiritual master, in what way have we received it? Properly, or only showingly? The time has come to purify us, to test whether we are real students, real disciples, or his disciples only in face and confession. What is the position of a real disciple? If we live in a society, what is the depth of our creed? In what attitude have we accepted his teachings? How deep-rooted is it within us? The fire has come to test whether we can stand. Is our acceptance real? Or is it a sham, an imitation? This fire will prove that.. . . And God has no error. He commands the environment. It is not our responsibility. The responsibility of the environment does not rest upon us. If I am sincere, then I have to adjust myself with this environment and put my faith before Him. "Everyone may leave me, but I shall stand alone!" With this attitude we must march on, whatever the circumstances may be. Then the recognition may come in my favor, that "Yes, under such trying circumstances he is still there." Our superiors will be pleased with us. The relative and absolute considerations are always coming in clash. The absolute should be accepted and the relative sacrificed. Still the relative is necessary. After graduation from primary school another teacher is accepted for higher education, but that does not mean that the primary teacher is neglected or insulted. For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point. . . . Sometimes the father may not be our guardian. Our uncle may be our guide, and not the father. It is possible. The line of interest is to be considered the most important. So, our line is the siksa guru parampara. I am thankful to those that are helping my spiritual understanding not only in a formal way, but in the real sense. Whoever is untying the knots of our entanglement in this material world, giving us light, and quenching our thirst for inner understanding and satisfaction is our guru. In this way, we live on the contribution of all these spiritual masters. They are all our siksa gurus. All the Vaisnavas are more or less our instructing spiritual masters. And our own sincere hankering for the truth will be our guide. That is guru parampara. So the real disciplic line provides practical knowledge in support of the divine love which is coming down. We must bow our heads wherever we find support of that. We should not become formalists, but substantialists; not fashionists, not imitationists, but realistic thinkers. That should always be our temperament. And what sort of saintly persons shall we try to mix with earnestly? In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.91) Rupa Goswami has said, sajati-yasye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare: Those who are in our line, who have the same high spiritual aspirations as we do, and who hold a superior position. To associate with such saintly persons will help us the most to progress towards the ultimate goal. There may be some obstacles, but if at heart we are sincere, the environment cannot deceive us, because God's inner help is there, cooperating with our sincere, inner need (na hi kalyana krt kascit durgatim tata gacchati) [bg. 6.40]. What we want from our innermost hearts cannot but come true, because Krsna knows everything. There may be some obstacles, but by Krsna's help, they shall all be eliminated and our innermost aspiration will be crowned with success. The formal societal position helps one to maintain their present status while our affinity for the high ideal will always push us to advance in Krsna consciousness. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.18 it is stated that whatever hinders our advancement must be left behind, even society consciousness. The society is there to help us, not hinder us. Our process is Krsna consciousness not society consciousness. Next chapter: SG & HG Shri Guru & His Grace: Index Shri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha I am not going to discuss the rest of your post. I simply cannot place too much stock in your "sharp intellect and natural intelligence." and how it tries to explain what His Divine Grace really means. As you don't feel the need to take any help from anyone how to understand and realize the depth of what His Divine Grace has written in his books, frankly we don't need your explanation of what he said to glean what he really meant. My intellect may not be as sharp as yours and my natural intelligence is certainly limited by my conditioning but it is easy enough to understand what His Divine Grace is saying directly. I am not trying to put any words in your mouth. It is very clear from your posts that you believe you can go directly to His Divine Grace's books and fully understand them with no siksa from anyone as those books are non different than hearing directly from His Divine Grace. My suggestion is that there might be something in the books or that we heard from His Divine Grace directly that we missed, that we can better understand and one day more fully realize with the assistance and anugatya of a siksa guru. Simple point. BTW If so many of His Divine Grace's disciples "got it" then why did his mission collapse under the weight of ambition, child abuse, neglect of women, Vaisnava aparadha and so many other anomolies that had nothing to do with what we read in His Divine Grace's books?

<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>For example, SB is the written record of two discussions. The recitation by Srila Sukadeva Gosvami to Maharaha Pariksit, and the recitation by Suta Gosvami to the sages of Naimisharanya. Some of Srila Prabhupada's books are the translations of those discussions from sanksrit to English with explanations (purports based on the commentaries of various other Gaudiya Acaryas). We should not minimize the importance of such recitations past or from present living acaryas, person Bhagavatas. The "function" of the devotees also means the preaching of any living sad-guru who is a person Bhagavata and currently speaking the same message as his predecessor acaryas. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavti Thakura was speaking the same message delivered by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was speaking the same message delivered by SBSST and other living acarayas are similarly speaking the same message as HDGACBSP. "What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures.Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard . . . Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his writings. . . The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakur Bhaktivinode" SBSST <o:p></o:p> The same is true for Srila Prabhupada, anyone who reads his books and does not understand what disciplic succession means, and believes that there is no current sad guru to hear from, associate with and take initiation from has also missed the point of why he published books. None of our acaryas write books to take the place of living sadhus, but rather to encourage devotees to actively seek them out. <o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said: "The line of guru-parampara is existing up to today withoit any break and will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, "There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future," is an atheistic opinion." <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "Finally, Sri Srila Prabhupada gave his blessings openly to all present as well as to those who were not present and advised them all to perform devotional service to the Supreme Lord and the service of pure devotees, specially by the method of propagation of his divine literatures. <o:p></o:p> Our most worshipable spiritual master Sri Srila Prabhupada has bestowed his affectionate blessings not only to his disciples, but to his grand-disciples and all those who will in the future come to this line of disciplic succession. There is no cause for loss of hope or fear, for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's line will never cease. This is the assurance of Sri Srila Prabhupada, the world teacher. He is eternally present among us. He is my Lord birth after birth, he is my only source of strength and those following in his footsteps should take his merciful instructions on their heads by mutually cooperating with each other, with Jagat Guru Sri Srila Prabhupada as the center, and try to fulfill his desires in serving the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. All perfection will be attained on pleasing Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada." Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaja http://bvml.org/SBPPG/pai.htm

TEXT 117 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> siddhanta baliya citte na kara alasa iha ha-ite krsne lage sudrdha manasa <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> siddhanta--conclusion; baliya--considering; citte--in the mind; na kara--do not be; alasa--lazy; iha--this; ha-ite--from; krsne--in Lord Krsna; lage--becomes fixed; su-drdha--very firm; manasa--the mind. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> There are many students who, in spite of reading the Bhagavad-gita, misunderstand Krsna because of imperfect knowledge and conclude Him to be an ordinary, historical personality. This one must not do. One should be particularly careful to understand the truth about Krsna. If because of laziness one does not come to know Krsna conclusively, one will be misguided about the cult of devotion, like those who declare themselves advanced devotees and imitate the transcendental symptoms sometimes observed in liberated souls. Although the use of thoughts and arguments is a most suitable process for inducing an uninitiated person to become a devotee, neophytes in devotional service must always alertly understand Krsna through the vision of the revealed scriptures, the bona fide devotees and the spiritual master. Unless one hears about Sri Krsna from such authorities, one cannot make advancement in devotion to Sri Krsna. The revealed scriptures mention nine means of attaining devotional service, of which the first and foremost is hearing from authority. The seed of devotion cannot sprout unless watered by the process of hearing and chanting. One should submissively receive the transcendental messages from spiritually advanced sources and chant the very same messages for one's own benefit as well as the benefit of one's audience. When Brahma described the situation of pure devotees freed from the culture of empiric philosophy and fruitive actions, he recommended the process of hearing from persons who are on the path of devotion. Following in the footsteps of such liberated souls, who are able to vibrate real transcendental sound, can lead one to the highest stage of devotion, and thus one can become a maha-bhagavata. From the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 22.65) we learn: <o:p></o:p> sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra 'uttama-adhikari' sei taraye samsara <o:p></o:p> "A person who is expert in understanding the conclusion of the revealed scriptures and who fully surrenders to the cause of the Lord is actually able to deliver others from the clutches of material existence." Srila Rupa Gosvami, in his Upadesamrta (3), advises that to make rapid advancement in the cult of devotional service one should be very active and should persevere in executing the duties specified in the revealed scriptures and confirmed by the spiritual master. Accepting the path of liberated souls and the association of pure devotees enriches such activities. Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaisnavas and who therefore imitate the previous acaryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir asru-pulakayoh sator api yad dhrdayam na vikriyeta tad asma-saram iti kanisthadhikarinam eva asru-pulakadi-mattve 'pi asma-sara-hrdayataya nindaisa. "Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned." The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions. Cc. Adi 1.117 TEXT 53 <o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani' bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system. Cc. Antya lila 7.53

Mark anyone who CAN understand Srila Prabhupada's books never rejects the opportunity to hear the SB from the person bhagavata, to associate with living sadhu, to take siksa from him, and certainly if he is uninitiated to accept harinama and diksa from such a personality. Remarkable how you continue to adjust Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions to fit your pre conception. You cannot explain away Srila Prabhupada's direct answer to Madhudvisa's direct question. Can someone become a devotee by reading your books. NO! He said NO! but you say he meant "Yes, it is possible." amazing. One could also understand his answer to mean that any sad-guru who can explain the SB, Cc, Bg and other gaudiya shastras. anyone who "knows the subject matter." is the right person to explain them. Your explanation that when His Divine Grace said No! he really meant YES it is possible ! holds as much water as a pot filled with holes. Sorry. Bg. 4.34 and its purport are crystal clear. ". . . Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective." But of course you read the books with a rtvk dictionary and believe approach means open and read the books, so until we accept the same definitions of the English language there is not much hope for communication.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> TEXT 18 <o:p> </o:p> TEXT <o:p> </o:p> bhaktim harau bhagavati pravahann ajasram ananda-baspa-kalaya muhur ardyamanah viklidyamana-hrdayah pulakacitango natmanam asmarad asav iti mukta-lingah <o:p> </o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p> </o:p> bhaktim--devotional service; harau--unto Hari; bhagavati--the Supreme personality of Godhead; pravahan--constantly engaging in; ajasram--always; ananda--blissful; baspa-kalaya--by a stream of tears; muhuh--again and again; ardyamanah--being overcome; viklidyamana--melting; hrdayah--his heart; pulaka--standing of hairs; acita--covered; angah--his body; na--not; atmanam--body; asmarat--he remembered; asau--he; iti--thus; mukta-lingah--free from the subtle body. <o:p> </o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p> </o:p> Because of his transcendental bliss, incessant tears flowed from his eyes, his heart melted, and there was shivering and standing of the hairs all over his body. Thus transformed, in a trance of devotional service, Dhruva Maharaja completely forgot his bodily existence, and thus he immediately became liberated from material bondage. <o:p> </o:p> PURPORT <o:p> </o:p> Due to constant engagement in devotional service--hearing, chanting, remembering, worshiping the Deity, etc., as prescribed in nine varieties--there are different symptoms which appear in the body of a devotee. These eight bodily transformations, which indicate that a devotee is already liberated within himself, are called asta-sattvika-vikara. When a devotee completely forgets his bodily existence, he should be understood to be liberated. He is no longer encaged in the body. The example is given that when a coconut becomes completely dry, the coconut pulp within the coconut shell separates from the bondage of the shell and the outer covering. By moving the dry coconut, one can hear that the pulp within is no longer attached to the shell or to the covering. Similarly, when one is fully absorbed in devotional service, he is completely disconnected from the two material coverings, the subtle and gross bodies. Dhruva Maharaja actually attained this stage of life by constantly discharging devotional service. He has already been described as a maha-bhagavata, for unless one becomes a maha-bhagavata, or a first-class pure devotee, these symptoms are not visible. Lord Caitanya exhibited all these symptoms. Thakura Haridasa also exhibited them, and there are many pure devotees who manifested such bodily symptoms. They are not to be imitated, but when one is actually advanced, these symptoms are exhibited. At that time it is to be understood that a devotee is materially free. Of course, from the beginning of devotional service the path of liberation immediately opens, just as the coconut taken from the tree immediately begins to dry; it simply takes some time for the shell and pulp to separate from one another. An important word in this verse is mukta-lingah. Mukta means "liberated," and linga means "the subtle body." When a man dies, he quits the gross body, but the subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego carries him to a new body. While existing in the present body, the same subtle body carries him from one stage of life to another (for example, from childhood to boyhood) by mental development. The mental condition of a baby is different from that of a boy, the mental condition of a boy is different from that of a young man, and the mental condition of a young man is different from that of an old man. So at death the process of changing bodies takes place due to the subtle body; the mind, intelligence and ego carry the soul from one gross body to another. This is called transmigration of the soul. But there is another stage, when one becomes liberated even from the subtle body; at that time the living entity is competent and fully prepared to be transferred to the transcendental or spiritual world. The description of the bodily symptoms of Sri Dhruva Maharaja makes it apparent that he became perfectly fit to be transferred to the spiritual world. One can experience the distinction between the subtle and gross bodies even daily; in a dream, one's gross body is lying on the bed while the subtle body carries the soul, the living entity, to another atmosphere. But because the gross body has to be continued, the subtle body comes back and settles in the present gross body. Therefore one has to become free from the subtle body also. This freedom is known as mukta-linga. SB 4.12.18 HDGACBSP

We are all better served if we examine the entire article from which you extracted one short paragraph. and read it in context. It is a Bengali lecture given by Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja Translated from Sri Gaudiya Patrika, issue 10/11 http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/sbpkm_sastriya.shtml Are you really interested in inquiry about raganuga bhakti or are you just doing a poor imitation of Krsna das' article that tried to make false distinctions between acaryas? did you not read this part of the quote? ". . . When one reaches the higher stage of raganuga bhajana. . ." Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava maharaja also spoke on this topic in l955 at an assembly of Vaisnavas at the Kesavji Gaudiya Matha,in which both he and Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja discussed the Svarupa of the Jiva: " When the jiva is averse to Paramesvara, his pure svarupa is conealed by maya. Conversely, when he become inclined towards Paramesvara, the curtain of the covering potency, maya, is withdrawn and thus the jiva's pure svarupa and qualities are uncovered. Immediately thereafter, he has the direct perception of his own svarupa. From this siddhanta it is evident that the jiva is an infinitessimal atomic particle of consciousness. He has an inherent spiritual identity, cimaya svarupa. His pure ahankara, pure consciousness, pure form and method of service and so on, are also definitely in this svarupa. As the sadhaka jiva goes on hearing and chanting, pure bhakti appears in his hear, and the function of the essence of hladini and samvit, known as bhakti-devi, removes all other desires and aspirations except for the service of bhagavan. Having dispelled avidya (ignorance), the jiva's gross and subtle coverings are both destoryed by the vidyavrtti function of the knowledge potency. At once the jiva's constitutional pure, transcendental body, is caused to manifest. Moeover for those who are eligible to taste madhurya -rasa their purely spiritual gopi body is also caused to manifest." There is a similar statement about how Dhruva Maharaja disconnected from the subtle body.when he realized his true eternal sellf, in the 4th Canto of HDGACBSP's SB. When I find it I will post it for you. Certainly sounds like SBPKGM was in direct line and sync with SBSST. The both advocated that sadhakas hear and chant and follow the principles of vaidhi bhakti and gradually rise to the adhikara to realize their svarupa and not prematurely concern themselves with the ekadasi bhavas until they really means something to them by the actual realization of their vastu siddhi. From the above statement it appears that SBPKM taught that all the ekasi bhavas automatically are contained within the svarupa of any purely realized jiva.

Nectar of Instruction, the Sri Upadesamrta of Srila Rupa Gosvami TEXT TEN <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> TEXT <o:p> </o:p> karmibhyah parito hareh priyataya vyaktim yayur jnaninas tebhyo jnana-vimukta-bhakti-paramah premaika-nisthas tatah tebhyas tah pasu-pala-pankaja-drsas tabhyo 'pi sa radhika prestha tadvad iyam tadiya-sarasi tam nasrayet kah krti <o:p> </o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p> </o:p> karmibhyah--than all fruitive workers; paritah--in all respects; hareh--by the Supreme Personality of Godhead; priyataya--because of being favored; vyaktim yayuh--it is said in the sastra; jnaninah--those advanced in knowledge; tebhyah--superior to them; jnana-vimukta--liberated by knowledge; bhakti-paramah--those engaged in devotional service; prema-eka-nisthah--those who have attained pure love of God; tatah--superior to them; tebhyah--better than them; tah--they; pasu-pala-pankaja-drsah--the gopis who are always dependent on Krsna, the cowherd boy; tabhyah--above all of them; api--certainly; sa--She; radhika--Srimati Radhika; prestha--very dear; tadvat--similarly; iyam--this; tadiya-sarasi--Her lake, Sri Radha-kunda; tam--Radha-kunda; na--not; asrayet--would take shelter of; kah--who; krti--most fortunate. <o:p> </o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p> </o:p> In the sastra it is said that of all types of fruitive workers, he who is advanced in knowledge of the higher values of life is favored by the Supreme Lord Hari. Out of many such people who are advanced in knowledge [jnanis], one who is practically liberated by virtue of his knowledge may take to devotional service. He is superior to the others. However, one who has actually attained prema, pure love of Krsna, is superior to him. The gopis are exalted above all the advanced devotees because they are always totally dependent upon Sri Krsna, the transcendental cowherd boy. Among the gopis, Srimati Radharani is the most dear to Krsna. Her kunda [lake] is as profoundly dear to Lord Krsna as this most beloved of the gopis. Who, then, will not reside at Radha-kunda and, in a spiritual body surcharged with ecstatic devotional feelings [aprakrtabhava], render loving service to the divine couple Sri Sri Radha-Govinda, who perform Their astakaliya-lila, Their eternal eightfold daily pastimes. Indeed, those who execute devotional service on the banks of Radha-kunda are the most fortunate people in the universe. <o:p> </o:p> PURPORT <o:p> </o:p> At the present moment almost everyone is engaged in some kind of fruitive activity. Those who are desirous of gaining material profits by working are called karmis, or fruitive workers. All living entities within this material world have come under the spell of maya. This is described in the Visnu Purana (6.7.61): <o:p> </o:p> visnu-saktih para prokta ksetrajnakhya tatha para avidya-karma-samjnanya trtiya saktir isyate <o:p> </o:p> Sages have divided the energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead into three categories--namely, the spiritual energy, marginal energy and material energy. The material energy is considered to be the third-class energy (trtiya saktih). Those living beings within the jurisdiction of the material energy sometimes engage themselves like dogs and hogs in working very hard simply for sense gratification. However, in this life, or, after executing pious activities, in the next life, some karmis become strongly attracted to performing various kinds of sacrifices mentioned in the Vedas. Thus on the strength of their pious merit, they are elevated to heavenly planets. Actually those who perform sacrifices strictly according to Vedic injunctions are elevated to the moon and planets above the moon. As mentioned in Bhagavad-gita (9.21), ksine punye martya-lokam visanti: after exhausting the results of their so-called pious activities, they again return to the earth, which is called martya-loka, the place of death. Although such persons may be elevated to the heavenly planets by their pious activities and although they may enjoy life there for many thousands of years, they nonetheless must return to this planet when the results of their pious activities are exhausted. This is the position of all karmis, including those who act piously and those who act impiously. On this planet we find many businessmen, politicians and others who are simply interested in material happiness. They attempt to earn money by all means, not considering whether such means are pious or impious. Such people are called karmis, or gross materialists. Among the karmis are some vikarmis, people who act without the guidance of Vedic knowledge. Those who act on the basis of Vedic knowledge perform sacrifices for the satisfaction of Lord Visnu and to receive benedictions from Him. In this way they are elevated to higher planetary systems. Such karmis are superior to the vikarmis, for they are faithful to the directions of the Vedas and are certainly dear to Krsna. In Bhagavad-gita (4.11), Krsna says: ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham. "In whatever way one surrenders unto Me, I reward him accordingly." Krsna is so kind that He fulfilled the desires of the karmis and jnanis, not to speak of the bhaktas. Although the karmis are sometimes elevated to higher planetary systems, as long as they remain attached to fruitive activities they must accept new material bodies after death. If one acts piously, he can attain a new body among the demigods in the higher planetary systems, or he may attain some other position in which he can enjoy a higher standard of material happiness. On the other hand, those who are engaged in impious activities are degraded and take birth as animals, trees and plants. Thus those fruitive actors who do not care for the Vedic directions (vikarmis) are not appreciated by learned saintly persons. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.5.4): <o:p> </o:p> nunam pramattah kurute vikarma yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti na sadhu manye yata atmano 'yam asann api klesada asa dehah <o:p> </o:p> "Materialists who work hard like dogs and hogs simply for sense gratification are actually mad. They simply perform all kinds of abominable activities simply for sense gratification. Materialistic activities are not at all worthy of an intelligent man, for as a result of such activities, one gets a material body, which is full of misery." The purpose of human life is to get out of the threefold miserable conditions, which are concomitant with material existence. Unfortunately, fruitive workers are mad to earn money and acquire temporary material comforts by all means; therefore they risk being degraded to lower species of life. Materialists foolishly make many plans to become happy in this material world. They do not stop to consider that they will live only for a certain number of years, out of which they must spend the major portion acquiring money for sense gratification. Ultimately such activities end in death. Materialists do not consider that after giving up the body they may become embodied as lower animals, plants or trees. Thus all their activities simply defeat the purpose of life. Not only are they born ignorant, but they act on the platform of ignorance, thinking that they are getting material benefits in the shape of skyscraper buildings, big cars, honorable positions and so on. The materialists do not know that in the next life they will be degraded and that all their activities simply serve as parabhava, their defeat. This is the verdict of Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.5.5): parabhavas tavad abodha jatah. One should therefore be eager to understand the science of the soul (atma-tattva). Unless one comes to the platform of atma-tattva, by which one understands that the soul and not the body is oneself, one remains on the platform of ignorance. Out of thousands and even millions of ignorant people who are wasting their time simply gratifying their senses, one may come to the platform of knowledge and understand higher values of life. Such a person is called a jnani. The jnani knows that fruitive activities will bind him to material existence and cause him to transmigrate from one kind of body to another. As indicated in Srimad-Bhagavatam by the term sarira-bandha (bound to bodily existence), as long as one maintains any conception of sense enjoyment, his mind will be absorbed in karma, fruitive activity, and this will oblige him to transmigrate from one body to another. Thus a jnani is considered superior to a karmi because he at least refrains from the blind activities of sense enjoyment. This is the verdict of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. However, although a jnani may be liberated from the ignorance of the karmis, unless he comes to the platform of devotional service he is still considered to be in ignorance (avidya). Although one may be accepted as a jnani, or one advanced in knowledge, his knowledge is considered impure because he has no information of devotional service and thus neglects the direct worship of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When a jnani takes to devotional service, he rapidly becomes superior to an ordinary jnani. Such an advanced person is described as jnana-vimukta-bhakti-parama. How a jnani takes to devotional service is mentioned in Bhagavad-gita (7.19), wherein Krsna says: <o:p> </o:p> bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah <o:p> </o:p> "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." Actually a person is wise when he surrenders unto the lotus feet of Krsna, but such a mahatma, great soul, is very rare. After taking to devotional service under the regulative principles, a person may come to the platform of spontaneous love of Godhead, following in the footsteps of great devotees like Narada and Sanaka and Sanatana. The Supreme Personality of Godhead then recognizes him to be superior. The devotees who have developed love of Godhead are certainly in an exalted position. Of all these devotees, the gopis are recognized as superior because they do not know anything other than satisfying Krsna. Nor do the gopis expect any return from Krsna. Indeed, sometimes Krsna puts them into extreme suffering by separating Himself from them. Nonetheless, they cannot forget Krsna. When Krsna left Vrndavana for Mathura, the gopis became most dejected and spent the rest of their lives simply crying in separation from Krsna. This means that in one sense they were never actually separated from Krsna. There is no difference between thinking of Krsna and associating with Him. Rather, vipralambha-seva, thinking of Krsna in separation, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did, is far better than serving Krsna directly. Thus of all the devotees who have developed unalloyed devotional love for Krsna, the gopis are most exalted, and out of all these exalted gopis, Srimati Radharani is the highest. No one can excel the devotional service of Srimati Radharani. Indeed, even Krsna cannot understand the attitude of Srimati Radharani; therefore He took Her position and appeared as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, just to understand Her transcendental feelings. In this way Srila Rupa Gosvami gradually concludes that Srimati Radharani is the most exalted devotee of Krsna and that Her kunda (lake), Sri Radha-kunda, is the most exalted place. This is verified in a quotation from Laghu-bhagavatamrta (Uttara-khanda 45), as quoted in Caitanya-caritamrta: <o:p> </o:p> yatha radha priya visnos tasyah kundam priyam tatha sarva-gopisu saivaika visnor atyanta-vallabha <o:p> </o:p> "Just as Srimati Radharani is dear to the Supreme Lord Krsna [Visnu], so Her bathing place [Radha-kunda] is equally dear to Krsna. Among all the gopis, She alone stands supreme as the Lord's most beloved." Therefore everyone interested in Krsna consciousness should ultimately take shelter of Radha-kunda and execute devotional service there throughout one's life. This is the conclusion of Rupa Gosvami in the tenth verse of Upadesamrta. <o:p> </o:p> TEXT ELEVEN <o:p> </o:p> TEXT <o:p> </o:p> krsnasyoccaih pranaya-vasatih preyasibhyo 'pi radha kundam casya munibhir abhitas tadrg eva vyadhayi yat presthair apy alam asulabham kim punar bhakti-bhajam tat premedam sakrd api sarah snatur aviskaroti <o:p> </o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p> </o:p> krsnasya--of Lord Sri Krsna; uccaih--very highly; pranaya-vasatih--object of love; preyasibhyah--out of the many lovable gopis; api--certainly; radha--Srimati Radharani; kundam--lake; ca--also; asyah--of Her; munibhih--by great sages; abhitah--in all respects; tadrk eva--similarly; vyadhayi--is described; yat--which; presthaih--by the most advanced devotees; api--even; alam--enough; asulabham--difficult to obtain; kim--what; punah--again; bhakti-bhajam--for persons engaged in devotional service; tat--that; prema--love of Godhead; idam--this; sakrt--once; api--even; sarah--lake; snatuh--of one who has bathed; aviskaroti--arouses. <o:p> </o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p> </o:p> Of the many objects of favored delight and of all the lovable damsels of Vrajabhumi, Srimati Radharani is certainly the most treasured object of Krsna's love. And, in every respect, Her divine kunda is described by great sages as similarly dear to Him. Undoubtedly Radha-kunda is very rarely attained even by the great devotees; therefore it is even more difficult for ordinary devotees to attain. If one simply bathes once within those holy waters, one's pure love of Krsna is fully aroused. <o:p> </o:p> PURPORT <o:p> </o:p> Why is Radha-kunda so exalted? The lake is so exalted because it belongs to Srimati Radharani, who is the most beloved object of Sri Krsna. Among all the gopis, She is the most beloved. Similarly, Her lake, Sri Radha-kunda, is also described by great sages as the lake that is as dear to Krsna as Radha Herself. Indeed, Krsna's love for Radha-kunda and Srimati Radharani is the same in all respects. Radha-kunda is very rarely attained, even by great personalities fully engaged in devotional service, not to speak of ordinary devotees who are only engaged in the practice of vaidhi bhakti. It is stated that a devotee will at once develop pure love of Krsna in the wake of the gopis if he once takes a bath in Radha-kunda. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends that even if one cannot live permanently on the banks of Radha-kunda, he should at least take a bath in the lake as many times as possible. This is a most important item in the execution of devotional service. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In this connection Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura writes that even great sages and great devotees like Narada and Sanaka do not get an opportunity to come to Radha-kunda to take their baths. What, then, to speak of ordinary devotees? If, by great fortune, one gets an opportunity to come to Radha-kunda and bathe even once, he can develop his transcendental love for Krsna, exactly as the gopis did. It is also recommended that one should live on the banks of Radha-kunda and should be absorbed in the loving service of the Lord. One should bathe there regularly and give up all material conceptions, taking shelter of Sri Radha and Her assistant gopis. If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Sri Radha in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Radha-kunda. The conclusion is that to live on the banks of the Radha-kunda and to bathe there daily constitute the highest perfection of devotional service. It is a difficult position to attain, even for great sages and devotees like Narada. Thus there is no limit to the glory of Sri Radha-kunda. By serving Radha-kunda, one can get an opportunity to become an assistant of Srimati Radharani under the eternal guidance of the gopis. <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Atul never did any such thing. He is just keeping a low profile. SBSST and Gaudiya Siddhanta do not reject the ekadasi bhavas, or raganuga bhakti. SBSST cautioned against unqualified individuals accepting such sadhana when their adhikara was insufficient. If you are concerned that any mention of raganuga bhakti as our prayojana, or residing in Radha Kunda are dangerous and might wrongly influence devotees then we will have to tear out the pages in His Divine Grace's Nectar of Instruction for verses 10 and 11. He factually left the matha to avoid some politics that were manifesting, and simply took residence near Govardhana to do bhajana. He then later returned at the request of his gurudeva, Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja. History is fine, but distorting perception of actual events to give them a slant which infers that Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja was "influenced" by sahajiya babajis, when he has so vehemently and consistantly opposed their view of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings is not. You can examine: Refutation of the Sahajiya-doctrine Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis and read the first essay of: <TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="84%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="82%" bgColor=#ccffcc colSpan=2>Five Essential Essays - Prabandha Panchakam</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right width="18%" bgColor=#ccffcc> </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle width="5%"></TD><TD class=inhalttext width="95%" colSpan=2>This exceptional book is a compilation of five different essays which Srila Gurudeva has written over the past 20 years in defense of Gaudiya sampradaya tattva siddhanta. Each refutation is elaborately and conclusively proven with evidence from sastra. Included in this edition are two lectures by Srila Gurudeva which glorify and follow the example of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada who boldly re-established the true conceptions of Sriman Mahaprabhu and the gosvamis, and began the preaching mission which is today bringing this pure bhakti tattva siddhanta to every country in the world. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Congratulations for trying to stay free from false prestige, pratistha. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has stated in Manah-siksa: pratisthasa dhrsta svapaca-ramani me hrdi natet katham sadhuh-prema sprsati sucir etan nanu manah sada tvam sevasva prabhu-dayita-samantam atulam yatha tam niskasya tvaritam iha tam vesayati sah [“O mind! How can pure divine love appear in my heart as long as the shameless dog-eating outcaste woman of the desire for prestige is audaciously dancing there? Therefore, always remember and serve the immeasurably powerful commanders of the army of Krsna, the beloved devotees of the Lord. They will at once banish this outcaste woman and initiate the flow of immaculate vraja-prema in your heart.” (Manah-siksa, verse 7)]

Mark, Greetings. There just is not much love and affection in cyberspace, is there? What can we do? The only real problem that any of us have is that we are all racing towards inevitable death. Sadhu-sanga certainly seems to me our only hope for solving our present dilemna. How else will we ever be able to get beyond nama aparadha and approach nama abhasa? Thanks for your concern, but the only "problem" in responding to Vaisnava aparadha and apasiddhanta is that there is so much siddhanta that our acaryas have left explaining what Srila Rupa Gosvami has taught that sometimes it is hard to decide which to utilize. If posters insist on being anonymous, they could at least use some name so that other participants can distinguish one guest from another. If someone wants to get involved in any discussion, I feel they should register and use a name, real or unreal as it suits them As I understood Jn das's guidelines for the forums states a policy that guests are not supposed to "attack members." No one appreciates anonymous snipers. An anonymous guest once again, last night, used the phrase "old swamis from the Gaudiya Math." Rude and crude doesn't help anyone culture spiritual life. When Baladeva Vidyabhusana debated with the Ramavadis in Jaipura regarding Radha Krsna Madhurya lila, you can be sure that all parties involved always maintained a polite demeanor and quoted their positions based on pramana (evidence) from shastra . " In Dasa-Mula Siksa, there are ten teachings which have been divided into two parts, pramana and prameya. The first part, pramana, means evidence, and the other nine teachings are called prameya. What truths and realities that have been proven by that evidence are called prameya. These are divided into sambandha-tattva-jnana-knowledge of your relationship; abhidheya-tattva-jnana-knowledge of the process; and prayojana-tattva-jnana-knowledge of the supreme goal of life. Prameya can be defined as the Absolute Truth which has been proven by reliable evidence. . . It is not easy to understand sastra. Nowadays, people quote only one line and say, "Oh, this is the absolute truth." It will not even be from sastra, not from Prabhupada's books. Then they will quote from a letter, a telephone conversation, from an argument with an atheist or anything else. They take only one line, and on the basis of this, they say, "This is pramana." But this is not the teaching of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. What are His teachings? Amnaya praha-the statements of the Vedas received in guru-parampara are evidence. And those statements are subject to interpretation as well. So when we go deeply into the subject of interpretation, we find that it is not easy to understand any statement correctly without guidance. Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana and our acaryas have explained that you cannot just quote something from sastra and then say this is pramana, this is evidence. If you give some idea from sastra, this is called visaya, your subject matter. But then someone can question the way that you presented your idea. That is called samsaya, the doubt. Then on the basis of that doubt, someone can build a counter argument against your original idea. That is called purva-paksa. That counter argument is also full of statements from the Vedas. . . If someone takes just one verse or one sentence and presents it as proof, they may very well be making some blunder, because many devotees, especially those in the West, are not steeped with Vaisnava culture. Therefore when they see one piece of evidence, one sentence, one verse, one conversation, they say, "O my God! Yes it's true!" They believe it. But someone who knows Vaisnava culture will reserve his judgment for a few moments and then ask, "Where is it from? Who spoke it to whom? What is the context?" This is called visaya, the thesis. Then samsaya, a doubt is raised, and then purva-paksa, antithesis, all the evidence against the original thesis. Then comes siddhanta, the actual conclusion. After siddhanta is sangati, reconciling all the statements in such a way that we recognize their value and purpose, according to the context in which we find them. So devotees should not be misled by false propaganda, such as, "The jiva has fallen from the spiritual world-here is my evidence.Guru can be a conditioned soul-here is my evidence.Don't think of Krsna when you're chanting; only listen to the sound." There are so many isolated statements that can prove particular points, but this is not the teaching of Mahaprabhu. To accept any isolated statement, we have to go through the stages: visaya, samsaya, purvapaksa, siddhanta, and sastra sangati." Pramana Tattva by Prema Prayojana das http://bvml.org/contemporary/AM_pt.html .

<CENTER>INTRODUCTION </CENTER>Srila Rupa Gosvami was the younger brother of Sri Sanatana Gosvami and was elder to Sri Vallabha, who was father of Sri Jiva Goswami. Sri Vallabh was subsequently known as Anupama. They were Karnata-Brahmanas by birth. Sri Jiva Gosvami, nephew of Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana, gives a genealogical tree of their family at the end of his book Laghutosani. It will, therefore, be worth while to explain here in a nutshell the transcendental significance of Mahabhava, which is identified with Sri Radha alone. The conception of Sri Radha is completely misconceived by most people.From the present state of utter self-forgetfulness of an individual soul, engrossed in the physical and mental tabernacles till its final freedom and attainment of Prema-Bhakti, there are different stages of gradual unfolding of the innate dormant nature of the soul, which it must undergo by way of spiritual practices before it can aspire to understand and relish the super -excellence of Sri Radha-Krsna-Prema. These stages are (I) SRADDHA (II) SADHU-SANGA, (III)BHAJANA-KRIYA, (IV) ANARTHA-NIVRTTI, (V) NISTHA, (VI) RUCI, (VII) ASAKTI, (VIII) BHAVA, and (IX) PREMA. Sri Rupa Goswami deals in this book, Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu with the subject matter of PREMA starting form its lowest step of SRADDHA. From (I) Sraddha to (IV) Anartha nivrrti are steps of spiritual sadhana (practices) from utter bondage to the souls freedom from the clutches of the threefold deviating influences of Maya, the Deluding Energy of God. After self-realization, the soul develops in his or her spiritual practices from (V) Nistha to (IX) Prema, which is attainable even while the soul in not separated from his or her physical and mental, subtle, coverings. PREMA can develop in the siddha-deha, alone, i.e. the supra mundane and eternally spiritual body of the pure soul or the finite self otherwise called Jiva-atma, as categorically different from the physical and mental associations into: (X) SNEHA, (XI) MANA, (XII) PRANAYA, (XIII) RAGA, (XIV) ANU-RAGA, (XV) BHAVA, and (XVI) MAHABHAVA (XV) Bhava is distinct from (VIII) Bhava-rati in the earlier stages of Bhakti and spiritual practices till Prema is attained. The individual finite self or the Jiva-atma cannot, as stated above, attain Mahabhava. The conceptions about (I) Sraddha to (IX) Prema have been dealt with the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu by Srila Rupa Goswami, while Sri Rupa has elaborately explained the stages from (X) Sneha to (XVI) Mahabhava in his famous Ujjvala-Nilamani. As there has been a lot of confused thinking amongst scholars both eastern and western, about the true nature of Bhakti in general, Prema in particular, and much more about Mahabhava, i.e. the supra-mundane Love-Sports of the Counter-Whole (Sri Radha) with the Predominating Original Whole (Sri Krsna)--the Absolute-Whole having projected Itself out into the second or Counter-Whole without losing the Original Whole(Cf. Upanisad), and as these technical transcendental aspects of the unalloyed soul's eternal and ever progressive relations with the Supreme Being Sri Krsna have been wrongly identified in certain quarters with mundane and sensual love-dalliance, we propose to give here a sort explanatory note on each of the above mentioned sixteen stages of the souls progress to self-realization and God realization and the reciprocal relationships that exist between God (Param-Atma) and the individual soul or finite self (Jiv-atma). In the glossary at the end of the book, these technical terms in Rasa-Sastra Literature will be explained and in the Text we shall retain the original Sanskrta expressions which cannot conveniently be rendered into English equivalents. For example, it is absolutely wrong to translate Prema as "love" or Mahabhava as "great sentiment". By such 'easy' translation, the whole purpose of the Works of Sri Rupa Goswami will be lost. (Tridandi Swami Bhakti Hridaya Bon Maharaj introduction to Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu) (I) SRADDHA: Faith in the Supreme Being Sri Krsna, i.e. the faith that by serving Him alone everything else is served wholly and completely, as by pouring water at the root of a plant all its branches twigs and leaves are fed. Sraddha is aroused in the heart of an individual in bondage, but his association with saints and by listening to the injunctions of the Scriptures. Sraddha is of two kinds viz. (a) mundane, and (b) spiritual. The spiritual Sraddha or firm faith is the seed of Bhakti (Cf. Bhakti Sandarbha) (II) SADHU SANGA: Company of Sadhus or Saints. This means an individuals eager desire to be in the company of a Sadhu in order to learn the methods of spiritual practices for God realization alone and for no other purpose. But who is a Sadhu? According to Bhagavatam, Canto XI, Chap. 11, Slokas 29 to 31, the following are the qualities of a genuine Sadhu or Saint: A Sadhu is kind; he cherishes animosity toward none; he smilingly endures even the bitterest miseries; he loves Truth as the vein-blood of his life; he never allows any evil thought to pollute his mind; he looks upon all with equal love and compassion; he does not entertain any kind of mundane desires to darken his mental quantum; he is self-controlled, amiable and pure in character; he remains farthest from any attempt to accumulate for his future subsistence and does not beg anything form anybody; he is abstentious and peaceful; he is steady in his mind; he depends absolutely on the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna, and remains in constant remembrance of the Lord; he is patient, solemn, magnanimous and undisturbed even by utmost provocations and turmoils; he has control over hunger,thirst, lamentations ,infatuation, birth and death; he does never aspire after respect for himself, but is always respectful to others; he is friendly to all; his heart is full of compassion for others; he is fully conversant with the real nature of God; and he is erudite. To keep company with such a one in person, thought and through discussions is Sadhu-sanga.

Dear Das anudas, Thank you for your observations. You made some very valid points. particularly: As you pointed out there may be posters who stay anonymous with no ill intent in mind. Indeed there may be others that stay anonymous simply to generate contention and make mischief. Remaining anonymous on these forums is all too often a way to hide behind a keyboard, and not be honest enough to take responsibility for what you post. Like wearing a mask. Say anything, do anything and no one knows who you are. Freedom to commit cyber aparadha with the only consequence your continuance in the cycle of samsara. However you cannot hide from Supersoul and He knows everyone's isp. Our true identity and vastu siddhi has little or nothing to do with our conditioned state. TEXT 4 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> anarpita--not bestowed; carim--having been formerly; cirat--for a long time; karunaya--by causeless mercy; avatirnah--descended; kalau--in the Age of Kali; samarpayitum--to bestow; unnata--elevated; ujjvala-rasam--the conjugal mellow; sva-bhakti--of His own service; sriyam--the treasure; harih--the Supreme Lord; purata--than gold; sundara--more beautiful; dyuti--of splendor; kadamba--with a multitude; sandipitah--lighted up; sada--always; hrdaya-kandare--in the cavity of the heart; sphuratu--let Him be manifest; vah--your; saci-nandanah--the son of mother Saci. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> May that Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant spiritual knowledge of the mellow taste of His service. Cc. Adi 1.4 HDGACBSP I also appreciated the quote you offered earlier: "Devotees always humbly offer respect to everyone, but when there is a discussion on a point of sastras (scripture), they do not observe the usual etiquette, satyam bruyat priyam bruyat. They speak only the satyam (truth), although it may not necessarily be priyam (following norms of etiquette)." (Srila Prabhupada Letter, August 7th,1976) and can offer you this one as well from Bg. As It Is:Ch. 10, purport to Verses 4-5 ". . . Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth. "

Dear Das anudas, Greetings and pranams. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga True enough that anyone's identity shows through his words to some extent, but it is simply a matter of honesty, and being straightforward. In any other style of public "debate" concerning religion and politics are not the particpants identifed and their affiliations understood? And it is not any matter of "ranking." Krsna says all living beings are His parts and parcels. Every soul is equal in Krsna's eyes, but everyone's experience is not identical. Spiritual discussions are supposed to be based on guru,sadhu and shastra. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written: "A diseased person must be under the care of a physician because he cannot cure himself. Just as one should pardon the anger of a diseased person, so one should also excuse the improper behavior of the ignorant. This attitude is known as mercy. The ignorant have many misconceptions, such as faith in karma-kanda, occasional inclination towards jnana, worshiping the Deity with ulterior motives, faith in yoga, indifference towards the association of pure Vaisnavas, attachment to varnasrama, and many other things. However, the kanistha-adhikari can quickly become a madhyamaadhikari when these misconceptions are dispelled by good association, mercy, and good instructions. . . The madhyama Vaisnava’s fourth characteristic is neglect towards those who are inimical. Here we must define enmity and describe its different types. Dvesa, enmity, is a particular attitude which is also known as matsarata, envy, and which is exactly the opposite of love. Isvara is the only object of love, and dvesa is the attitude that is directly opposite to love for Him. There are five different types of dvesa: absence of faith in Isvara; the belief that Isvara is nothing more than a natural potency that brings about the results of all action; the belief that Isvara has no particular form; the belief that the jivas are not eternally subordinate to Isvara; and the absence of mercy.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Individuals whose hearts are contaminated by these inimical attitudes are absolutely bereft of suddha-bhakti. They do not even have prakrta-bhakti, the rudimentary devotion that is the doorway to suddha-bhakti, and which is represented by the neophyte bhakta’s worship of the Deity. The five types of enmity are found to coexist with attachment to material sense enjoyment. Sometimes the third and fourth types of enmity lead to such an extreme form of asceticism or aversion towards the world that it culminates in self-annihilation. This is seen in the lives of the Mayavada sannyasis. How should suddha-bhaktas behave towards such inimical people? It is their duty to avoid them.<o:p></o:p> The word upeksa, neglect, does not imply that one should abandon all social dealings that are normal between human beings. Nor does it mean that one should fail to alleviate an inimical person’s difficulty or deprivation if he falls into distress. Grhastha Vaisnavas remain within society, so they have many types of relationships, for instance, with relatives through marriage, and with others through business dealings, through the maintenance of property and bringing up of animals, through endeavoring to mitigate the suffering and ailments of others, and through their position as citizens of the state. These different social relations entail connection with inimical people, and avoidance does not mean that one should at once give them up. One is obliged to conduct routine affairs and interact with people who are indifferent to Isvara, butone should not take their association when it comes to spiritual matters.<o:p></o:p> Some members of one’s own family may acquire a malicious nature as a result of their sinful activities from a previous life. Should one abandon such people? Certainly not. One should deal with them without attachment insofar as ordinary affairs are concerned, but one should not associate with them for spiritual matters. Upeksa should be applied in this regard. Spiritual association means to meet together for the purpose of spiritual advancement, to discuss topics of eternal truth, and to render reciprocal service and welfare that awakens one’s devotional sentiments. Upeksa means avoiding the association of people with whom such types of exchange are not possible.<o:p></o:p> When an inimical person who has adopted discordant or inconsistent opinions hears glorification of suddha-bhakti or virtuous instructions regarding bhakti, he will immediately retort with some futile argument which is not beneficial for you or for him. One should avoid such fruitless arguments, and interact with such people only as far as necessary in routine social dealings. One may think that one should include inimical people among the ignorant, and therefore bestow mercy upon them, but if one does so, one will not help them and will only harm oneself. One should be benevolent, but with caution. . . " Seems to me that too much aparadha creeps into these discussions. Seems to me we would all be better off to try and become more swan life, as SBT recommends in his essay Non Sectarian Vaisnava Dharma. Since we are conditioned souls we see external differences , when in the higher realms of behavior any apparant inconsistancies are easily resolved and harmonized by the transcendental atmosphere.

It's about time that the various anonymous guests identify themselves and the other nom du pluma's stop hiding behind their pen names, and come forward. Why should we continue any discussion of Krsna consciousness with individuals who refuse to take responsibility for what they post by staying anonymous. Why Jndas allows anyone to participate on these forums without registering and giving his email and actual identity is beyond me. Even on the bbt.com.se undernet, which was a tool for Harikesa's domination of European iskcon book publication, all the participants in their public forums were clearly identified. The mistake there was that everyone had to place the initials of his diksa guru after his name, and a false distinction was made between disciples and grand disciples and godbrothers who were accepting disciples and those who were not. The principle of das,anudas and siksa was clouded by over emphasizing our line to be a diksa succession. There was little appreciation of the way SBSST resolved the pancaratrika guru parampara and the Bhagavata parampara. Rktambara, the moderator simply couldn't appreciate that point and wouldn't allow anyone to post without those initials because Harikesa and the iskcon gbc had told him what to think. I am not suggesting we make the same mistake here but on this forum no one can know who is who, who they are trying to dialogue with,and what devotional experience anyone has or has not.

Why do you relentlessly try to minimize vapuh association when it is clearly indicated in so many places in His Divine Grace''s books,lectures and in his example. You can attempt to re-write the meaning of the English language with the rtvk dictionary, but anyone who reads Srila Prabhupada's books with perception understands, what Krsna means in Bg. 4.34. when he say to approach a bona fide spiritual master, what association means, , what take shelter of means, what to take initiation from means, etc. Here is the paradox for you. The vanih says very succinctly over and over again to embrace that vapuh association whenever possible and hear SB from their lotus lips. Because you simply refuse to do that you can't understand the principle because you simply haven't heard about it from the lips of ANY sadhu, but have only read about it in theory and won't even accept that point theoretically. The bbt editors like to re write the books, and you like to re define the English language they are printed in. There is no way to explain it to you because understanding it depends on mercy and not jnana. When Srila Prabhupada says it directly you insist on interpreting the qualitative oneness of vanih and vapuh to distort his clear meaning. Do I have to re post Cc Antya lila 5.131, and SB 1.2.18.

Someone is certainly trying to argue that association with Vaisnavsa is not an important element of devotional progress. Kindly don't try to manipulate the discussion of that siddhanta like you did on the other thread by introducing your offensive attitude toward Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj. On the earlier thread and on this one no one has discussed any particular sadhu, only the principle. No one posted any claim that Srila Narayana Maharaja is the only sadhu sanga on the planet. That he is capable of offering genuine sadhu-sanga is indisputable and not the topic under discussion. If you think we are going to tolerate you putting words in our mouth and making issues out of non issues on this thread as you did the last time then you are sorely mistaken. On the earlier thread theist made the claim that all the "followers of Srila Narayana Maharaja" are supposedly posting here to "canvass" and we are telling everyone that SBVNM is the "only way", and that everyone must come hear from him. What a bhogus argument. Obviously you have some preconceived notions about Srila Narayana Maharaja and his followers.You have some paranoid idea that our sole purpose on these forums is to canvass here for his sanga and you are sorely mistaken. The internet and these contentious forums have little or nothing to do with sincere souls approaching any sad guru for shelter, mercy and guidance. The followers of SBVNM are also not responsible for the offenses to senior Vaisnavsa being created on any thread,because we want to see Gaudiya siddhanta discussed free from speculation, and rtvk misconceptions Srila Prabhupada has written very clearly in his 5th purport to Sri Upadesamrta, The Nectar or Instruction: ". . . In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. NOI purport Verse 5 HDGACBSP No problem for anyone to take whatever association inspires him and compare the level of adhikara and realization found in Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja's translations of Gaudiya literature http://bvml.org/SBNM/books/index.html with anything and everything that has come from any of the devotees in iskcon, post 1977.

<CENTER>108 </CENTER><CENTER>Srila Prabhupada Quotes </CENTER><CENTER>On the Importance of Having the Association of Pure Devotees </CENTER>http://bvml.org/contemporary/108spq.htm Nityananda dasa: Why is it that many kanistha-bhaktas do not progress?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Babaji: If the kanistha-bhakta associates mainly with people who are inimical, his immature level of eligibility for bhakti quickly fades, and his eligibility for karma and jnana becomes prominent. In some cases, eligibility neither increases nor decreases, but remains exactly the same.<o:p></o:p> Nityananda dasa: When does that happen?<o:p></o:p> Babaji: When he associates equally with bhaktas and inimical people.<o:p></o:p> Nityananda dasa: Under what circumstances can his advancement be assured?<o:p></o:p> Babaji: When his association with bhaktas becomes prominent and his association with the inimical becomes minimal, his advancement is rapid. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Chapter 8 Jaiva Dharma <o:p> </o:p> TEXT 71 <o:p> </o:p> TEXT <o:p> </o:p> rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana <o:p> </o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p> </o:p> rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms. <o:p> </o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p> </o:p> "A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained. <o:p> </o:p> PURPORT <o:p> </o:p> Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed. The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna. It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee. Cc. Madhya lila 22.71 HDGACBSP

The only thing we are trying to "prove" is that you don't really understand the meaning of the scriptures that have come from either Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharja or Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura. SBSST's article speaks for itself. SBSST also opened temples and gave many public lectures. KC is not cafateria religion, accept this and reject that. The whole package is important. The main point of his article is that you cannot understand the books left by the predecessor acarya by empiric study alone and without surrendering, serving and hearing from and taking the association of the present living acarya. In that article SBSST also said: "There have, however, already arisen serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the life and teachings of Srila Thakur Bhaktivinode. Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. There is no honest chance of missing the warnings of Thakur Bhaktivinode. Those, therefore, who are misled by the perusal of his writings are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course which they prefer to cherish against his explicit warnings. Let these unfortunate persons look more carefully into their own hearts for the cause of their misfortunes.The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakur Bhaktivinode. . . " Thinking you can understand transcendental literature by empiric study or without studying them carefully with the anugatya (guidance) of a pure Vaisnava is your mistake, plain and simple. KC is simple for the straight and complicated for the crooked. Try reading Cc.Antya lila 5.131,and SB 1.2.18. I quoted those verses and purports from the books on the other thread that was closed, and you ignored what His Divine Grace says in those purports then ,so no reason to believe you won't do that again. The reason our acaryas print books is to give the conditioned souls access to the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Gosvami. The Six Gosvamis wrote books on the direct order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to firmly establish the science of Krsna consciousness. Their work leaves a written record for future study and reference by sincere souls. In the books themselves, and not in your fautly conclusions we can read directly what to do and what not to do in order to practice Krsna consciousness. None of our acaryas translated the sanskrit works of Srila Vyasadeva, the Bengali writing of Srila Krsnadas kaviraja Gosvami, the sanskrit books of Srila Rupa Gosvami and the bengali literatures of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura into English, Hindi, Bengali and other languages to discourage sadhu sanga. WE DON'T discourage anyone from reading the books left by our acaryas or minimize their value. And we never said that His Divine Grace was "a dead guru." The fact is that he did end his nara lila and enter maha samadhi in 1977 and you cannot change that fact by inventing a new rtvk religion that tries to "belittle the function of the pure devotees" and call that Krsna Consciousness. You persist in denying the importance of sadhu-sanga, of hearing the discourses of self realized souls, of Bg. 4.34 and have offered no evidence from His Divine Grace's books to prove any of your assumptions. You sound very much like the gbc who also try to insist there is no need for a living siksa guru because all the vanih we will ever need is in His Divine Grace's books. Of course that is not what His Divine Grace has written in his books. As far as I can see you don't really accept His Divine Grace's vanih at all. Who is your spiritual master? Under whose guidance do you practice the regulative principles of vaidhi bhakti? Do you do that? Can you explain to us what the goal of bhakti yoga is? How can we achieve it? . You cannot minimize the significance of the nara lila of our acaryas, past and present. Unfortunately as wonderful as His Divine Grace's books are, the books alone have not kept the iskcon society free from apasiddhanta, vaisnava aparadha and numerous problems too useless to discuss and too numerous to even mention. "He reasons ill who thinks that Vaisavas die, Whilst thou art lving still in sound. For Vaisnavas die to live, and living try To spread the Holy Name Around."

". . . It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase. There are not a few dupes of their empiric Scriptural erudition. These dupes have their admiring under-dupes. But the mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course inaccordance with the suggestions of our lower selves. What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees. Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study. . . " Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6 http://bvml.org/SBSST/tb.htm

Wordsmith you are a brilliant example of how one can examine the words of our acaryas, the books of our acaryas, and the commentaries of our acaryas, and then come to a false conclusion of your own based on your own pre conception. I haven't seen such brazen mental speculation since Wyspery used to post on the VNN forums. Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja never ever said that books replaced sadhu sanga and that living sadhu is an "out dated concept." . Allow me to repeat yet again what he actually said : . The influence you catch from the devotee, what they hold within their heart, within their endeavour, pervading through all their activities, that particular attraction is the divine thing that I want. That most subtle of the subtle, the nerve structure within, that can move the bodily activities, that can help the body to do its functions is what we are after. That inner energy of the devotee, that makes him do what we do not find in the world, with no attraction for sense pleasure, fame, name, money, etc. but for something else, for Krsna. We must follow their path. “Who comes to serve Me directly are not My real devotees. But who is the devotee of My devotee, they are My real devotees. If you love Me, love My dog. His love for Me is so intense that wherever he finds any external connection with Me he engages himself fully there.” Vaisnava seva, guru seva, vigraha seva and nama seva are all recommended, but in Kali yuga especially, the service of the name has been given as the most general approach. It is mentioned sadhu sanga Krsna nama ei matta jai. We must climb up to the real plane where we can take the name proper, vaikuntha nama grahanam asesagham haram vidun. It is true that an infinite magnitude of sin may be removed by one name, but that must be vaikuntha nama. It must have the characteristic of vaikuntha, the unlimited plane of eternity, not only the physical sound. So sadhu sanga is necessary. The name must be taken from gurudeva, and with the company of sadhu the name must be taken. So, helplessly, when one is searching by this method or that method, when he practically comes in contact with the service for a vaisnava he gets real benefit. Then the service of vigraha and sastra all becomes superficial. The more real thing we find in the vaisnava. In his heart, the Krsna conception, Krsna as He is, knowledge or love, whatever we may be searching for, we will find in a living condition in the heart of a vaisnava who is regulating all his activities towards the service of the Lord. In the vaisnava it is animated more than in the vigraha, than in the tirtha and than in the sastra. TEXT 9 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> keha ta' acarya ajnaya, keha ta' svatantra sva-mata kalpana kare daiva-paratantra <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> keha ta'--some; acarya--the spiritual master; ajnaya--upon His order; keha ta'--some; sva-tantra--independently; sva-mata--their own opinions; kalpana kare--they concoct; daiva-paratantra--under the spell of maya. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> Some of the disciples strictly accepted the orders of the acarya, and others deviated, independently concocting their own opinions under the spell of daivi-maya. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> This verse describes the beginning of a schism. When disciples do not stick to the principle of accepting the order of their spiritual master, immediately there are two opinions. Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation. There is no scope for adjusting spiritual advancement to material ideas. Cc. Adi lila Ch. 12.9 HDGACBSP If you want anyone to take your posts seriously then you have to accept the vanih of our acaryas as it is, and not "independently concoct. . ." your "own opinions under the spell of daivi-maya.", and think you have proven your speculation. Perhaps to yourself, but to no one else.

<CENTER>The Importance of Sadhu Sanga </CENTER><CENTER>by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja </CENTER>Sadhu sanga krsna nama. The holy name must be taken with the attitude of service to the saints. Serving means die to live; to throw oneself wholesale for the higher existence. Mr. Gandhi risked his whole life at every point of action. His attitude was, “Whatever I told to others, I am to maintain that throughout the whole of my life.” What am I taking the name for? To have some fame as a sadhu? No! That should not be our objective. Kanak, kamini, partistha – not for money, not to attract women, and never to attract popularity. Rather I should be ready to sacrifice myself fully for whom I am serving, for whom I am taking the name. It is not a limited thing, but complete surrender, then the whole thing is guaranteed. My pursuit, my attempt should be backed by my whole energy, whole prospect and everything. This is the attitude I should have to search for a drop of Vaikuntha nectar. Otherwise our effort will be useless. Die to live means sacrifice or seva. Seva means death. Seva means to give one’s own self for a particular cause, for Krsna. That this mad, mundane concocted self should be saved is not a very laudable thing. It is a mortal thing, and the depot of many reactions. So one should get rid of this centre as soon as possible, and enter into the land of confidence, goodness, fairness and sweetness. Try to enter that land with a sincere and wholesome attitude. Your campaign must be wholesome not partial. Taking one step forward and three steps back won’t do. There should be no such hesitation. You are finite and you want to get the advantage of the infinite? You are so small, and do you think that by sacrificing only a part of your smallness your aspiration for the whole can be fulfilled? Is it reasonable to expect such? No, it is not so easy. Atah sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih, if only our superficial senses are engaged in Krsna cultivation, as if it is nothing, then you cannot produce the name, but only mundane sound. Sevon mukhe hi jivadhau svayam eva sphuraty adah. Your tongue can produce mundane sound, but that is not Krsna. For the name to be Krsna, Krsna has to come down. Don’t be self-deceptive, thinking that, “Taking the name, I am a great sadhu.” It is not like that. Krsna has come down to you in the form of sound and He is spiritual, transcendental. So seva mukhe or your complete surrender to Him will attract Him, and He graciously descend to save you by His name. In your archan, in performing your duties, at every step He will come when you are giving yourself to Him, then He will accept you. He will come and embrace you. He’ll be within you and without you, everywhere. But only those whose eyes are clear, and are not captured by any prejudice from selfish end or ordinary things can see Him. Those who are not captivated by any prejudice, in whom all prejudice is cleared can directly see the highest power or highest principle, underlying all. Our own tendency for exploitation and renunciation creates so many units of this plane, like so much dust to blind our eyes so we can’t see Him. Kanaka pasyanti kamini mayayo jagat. Those who are lustful try to find out where is a beautiful lady, pasyanti dhana mayo jagat, the greedy people always busy their minds with the thought, “Oh, there is Birla, there is Tata, there is Ford,” who are the moneyed men in this world. They only think about moneyed men because they love wealth the most. Dhara mayo jagat and khira prayanti narayano jagat, those who are liberated from the outer external influences may find, “Oh, I am in the kingdom of Narayan, who is the support and guardian of the whole world. We see His hand everywhere. Without His direction nothing can move.” They may boast that, “I have got such power, I have got such beauty, I have got wealth,” but it is all a false show. The real backing spirit is Narayan, the all pervading, all knowing, all good principle. And the temporary external plane is the killing aspect of existence. It is only our prejudices of so many types that have captured us. So by whatever process we approach the Lord the tenor of our movement should be, if we want a guarantee that it will actually be for the satisfaction of Krsna, that my whole effort depends upon the genuine character of the agent through whom I am rendering my services. If the agent is a false man then my whole energy is wasted. But if he is a real agent then I must be the gainer through him. If I connect with Vaikuntha through him then my actions will be valued. Otherwise we may be the loser, aparadha (offender). Nama aparadha, seva aparadha, arcana aparadha – there are so many aparadhas. It is also written in the scriptures that if service is not done properly, then we are sure to commit some offenses against the Deity. Either we will get satisfaction or trouble. Aradhana is the proper thing, and the hateful handling of the holy things is aparadha. It all depends on the satisfaction of whom it is we are serving. So we must be careful. We must not be overconfident of our previous acquisition – so much I have acquired, my progress is so much. I must not be satisfied with my self-certificate, self-satisfaction, the certificate of my own making. Mahaprabhu Himself said, “I am taking the name, I am showing so many tears in the name of Krsna. But why? It is all a false show na prema gandho ‘sti. My crying is only a show to canvas others to see what a great devotee I am.” So much you are to disbelieve your own self that you are a devotee. In this way we must be very careful, very, very careful. Kotis vapi maha mune, Krsna das Kaviraj Goswami and Narottam Das Thakur were seeing, “The whole world is absolved from sin, but I am neglected, I am left as the only exception. I am so low and ill fated that I am rejected from that most benevolent infinite lila. I alone am rejected. I could not utilize this great fortunate wave.” This should be the real tendency of a genuine vaisnava who has actually come in relation with the infinite. Whenever the finite comes in touch with the infinite his temperament cannot be otherwise. “I am empty, I don’t get anything,” that should be the temperament. I feel emptiness within me. I can’t get the goal. My life is frustrated. Neither do I get a drop of grace from the Lord, and the world, of course, I have left. So both sides gone. I have no alternative, O Lord. If you don’t accept me then I am undone. Please, just make me the servant of the servant of the servant. Give the remotest connection to me. Graciously give the most distant connection of Yourself to me. Don’t leave me, my Lord. I can’t tolerate the craving for you. This heart-felt, heart rending prayer must come to the vaisnava devotee of the Lord. Onlookers will find that he has got a peep of the fortune. The charm for the world outside is fully eliminated for that person, from the core of his heart. And in the near future his heart will be filled with the nectar of the grace of Krsna. Bhukti, mukti sprha yavat pisci na nivartate. The desire for enjoyment, and also for renunciation or mukti, no engagement, are compared to two ghosts (pisaci). So how do you dare to express that bhakti, real love for Krsna, will descent in your heart? Those two demons are there, and do you think the noble lady of devotion will come and sit on the same bench with those demons? How can you expect that? Have you freed yourself from all those nasty things that you dare to invite the lady of Krsna bhakti to come? Krsna bhajan is independent of any external form of life. Mahaprabhu says “naham vipro na ca narapati na vaisya na sudro, gopi bhartu pada kamalayor dasa dasanu dasa.” Varnasrama dharma is just the beginning, then gradually improving we are to go up to the absolute service of Krsna. Without consideration of any law or form, thinking only of service, whatever we do or think or speak, everything should be done for the service of Krsna. That is the standard of real devotion. And mere form may be a little favourable, but not always. The spirit, even crossing every formality, is what is required of us. Our absolute attraction for the service, the beauty does not allow law to have any status. In the beginning they have got some sort of utility. But when a little advanced they do not care for anything. Only sadhu sanga, adherence to the saint of similar type and a little better. Those who are on the path of raga bhajana, divine love and attraction, find that the only way, the only thing which can guide us is spontaneous desire, laulyam atram mulyam ekalam. The only price is earnest desire and nothing else. Krsna bhakti rasa-bavita mati, murti kriyatam yadi kuto ‘pi labhyate. Ramananda Raya says to Mahaprabhu, “Anywhere you find it, try to purchase it at any price.” The pure inclination towards the service of Krsna, the innermost tendency to want Krsna, to get Him, the earnest desire to have Him – a drop of that desire for the divine attraction, anywhere you find it, one must try to purchase it at any price. You may acquire it anywhere. It may be from a brahmana or from anyone. It does not matter about the form. Kiba vipra kiba nyasi sudra keno haya, yei krsna tattva vetti sei guru haya. Wherever there is a drop of that divine love, try to get it. And what is the price? Earnest desire for it. No other price but earnest desire, laulyam. It is not to be purchased by any money, or anything else which is acquired by so many formal practices in cores of births. Substance is necessary and not form. Form may be adopted only as much as it may connect me with that higher thing. So, sarva dharman parityaja, ‘all phases of duty you perceive as perfect, give up. At once try to jump in Me, into the ocean of nectar. I am the ocean of nectar. Try to jump.’ That is the direct teaching. So our addiction to this or that, to vanaprastha, sannyasa, or grhastha has got very negligent value. But the earnest desire, that is to be acquired by any means. That is bhakti proper. Others try to know about Krsna from the scriptures (sastra). Ramakrishna once remarked that in the almanac it is written that this year so much rain is expected. But it does not mean that if we please the almanac a drop of water will ooze out of it. So the sastra is something like that. The sastras say do this and do that. But that does not mean the sastra will give us the result too. They give direction, and as much as we practice we get. So, helplessly, when one is searching by this method or that method, when he practically comes in contact with the service for a vaisnava he gets real benefit. Then the service of vigraha and sastra all becomes superficial. The more real thing we find in the vaisnava. In his heart, the Krsna conception, Krsna as He is, knowledge or love, whatever we may be searching for, we will find in a living condition in the heart of a vaisnava who is regulating all his activities towards the service of the Lord. In the vaisnava it is animated more than in the vigraha, than in the tirtha and than in the sastra. Direct connection with Krsna we can find in the consciousness of a vaisnava. From what plane is he regulating all his activities? To what plane is he withdrawing himself from all worldly attraction? What is that which guides him towards some direction which is unknown and unknowable? He is moving towards that direction which is not to be traced in any loss or gain of this world. What is that thing? Nanam tisthami vaikuntha yoginam hrdayesu va mad bhakta yatra guyante tatra tisthami narado. “I am not even in Vaikuntha, not even in the heart of the yogis, but where my devotees are singing with pleasure about Me, I am there, I am owned by them.” Mac citta mad gata prana, bodha-yantah parasparam kathayantas ca mam nityam tusyanti ca ramanti ca. In the Ramanuja sampradaya there is an incident regarding three Alwar devotees, nitya parsada devotees, who were contemporaries. One night they went to a temple perhaps for some occasion. They did not know one another. In the darkness one was talking, another hearing. It was also very sweet to him. Then the third also joined. They were talking although they did not know one another. They might have heard the names of each other, but this night they have met together. Natha yogi, Bhuta yogi and someone talking between them. Then one questioned, “We three are here. Do you feel the presence of a fourth one?” One told, “Yes, I feel the presence of a fourth one”. By this it is meant that the Lord, about whom they were talking, is present. In their talking, in the conversation, He has come and is hearing the talk. So, only attraction, pure spiritual attraction, and nothing else can be pleasing to one but Krsna, Radharani, the gopis, all this, the very innermost part of the heart is taken possession of by the thought of Krsna and His associates, His lila, His name, and His paraphernalia. That is what is necessary. man mana bhava mad bhakta mad yaji mam namaskuru Krsna says, “You Arjuna, you are My most favourite devotee. I promise you at least, I won’t deceive you. So I say that I am everything. I tell you clearly that at least I won’t deceive you because you are My friend. Always mind Me, become My devotee and serve Me. If you sacrifice anything, do it for Me. Or at least you may show respect to Me. So you are sure to enter Me, to come to Me. Myself alone you will come to. This is the truth. I promise you. You are My favourite. The truth is this, do everything for Me, attend Me, always think of Me and you are sure to come to Me.” The thinking, the engagement, the very life of engagement is attraction for Him. Attraction for Him, but how to get it? How to seek shelter from the devotees? Superficially we can get something from the sastra, but substantially from the devotee. The influence you catch from the devotee, what they hold within their heart, within their endeavour, pervading through all their activities, that particular attraction is the divine thing that I want. That most subtle of the subtle, the nerve structure within, that can move the bodily activities, that can help the body to do its functions is what we are after. That inner energy of the devotee, that makes him do what we do not find in the world, with no attraction for sense pleasure, fame, name, money, etc. but for something else, for Krsna. We must follow their path. “Who comes to serve Me directly are not My real devotees. But who is the devotee of My devotee, they are My real devotees. If you love Me, love My dog. His love for Me is so intense that wherever he finds any external connection with Me he engages himself fully there.” Vaisnava seva, guru seva, vigraha seva and nama seva are all recommended, but in Kali yuga especially, the service of the name has been given as the most general approach. It is mentioned sadhu sanga Krsna nama ei matta jai. We must climb up to the real plane where we can take the name proper, vaikuntha nama grahanam asesagham haram vidun. It is true that an infinite magnitude of sin may be removed by one name, but that must be vaikuntha nama. It must have the characteristic of vaikuntha, the unlimited plane of eternity, not only the physical sound. So sadhu sanga is necessary. The name must be taken from gurudeva, and with the company of sadhu the name must be taken. Nama sankirtana means to preach the name, what the name is, and the ten offenses against the name. There are also four abhasa or shadowy expressions of the name. They should also be eliminated and the real name which is one and the same with the Lord should be taken. The greatness and magnanimity of the name is so charming, the name is the Lord Himself. In this way, by taking the name, nam bhajan or kirtan, we can be saved from the external contamination of the forces of the world of karma and jnana, exploitation and renunciation. These are the two great enemies of devotion, bhukti mukti sprha. The tendency to exploit and its opposite, the tendency to renounce, neither the negative nor the renunciation of the negative can be a real positive. A third thing is necessary and that is constructive, full in itself and perfect. Positive is not mere withdrawal from the negative side. The positive has got its own characteristics, so we must come in connection with the positive: sat cit ananda, satyam sivam, sundaram. We must connect ourselves in all phases, whatever is possible for us. Grha va vante thake ha gauranga bole dake. It doesn’t matter much whether one is a householder or a sannyasi. How much he has intensely engaged himself in the service of the Lord, that is to be seen. A grhasta may even be above a sannyasi. During the time of Mahaprabhu, so many grhasta devotees were there, but the real spirit is all Gauranga. We found in our young days when we joined the non-cooperative movement of Gandhi that there were so many volunteers who had left everything. But when the police were coming they were fleeing for fear of their life. Still we found that a grhasta like Chittaranjan Das and others, with all their family members, were giving resistance to the police attack. Although a grhasta, he sends his son to the prison and his daughter and wife to police custody. Gandhi remarked, “I envy your situation.” As a grhasta he was living like a fully attached man. But in the real work of supporting the cause, he is not less than one who has left everything and dedicated himself wholly. As a family man he is not afraid, whereas others may be afraid. So service is necessary. In whatever position he may be it does not matter much. When the necessity will come, even an apparently worldly minded householder may sacrifice the whole for Krsna. In the case of Haris Chandra, for example, he was a king for the truth as he could conceive of it. He left everything for the cause which he loved. So wholesale dedication, the internal hankering, the fire within is the real necessity. It may not be found in a sannyasi, but in a grhasta, vanaprastha, brahmachari or anyone. We want the substance and not the form so much. The burning fire of separation from Krsna is the real wealth. Just as with Sri Chaitanyadeva, His separation from Krsna is so intense, that he can’t sleep or take food. His separation is so intense that at night He is trying to get out of the house, though it is all closed. So he jumped the walls of the house, practically unconsciously, and fell in front of the Jagannath temple and fainted. What degree of separation is found in Him! It is not possible for us to conceive the degree of feeling that there was. Sometimes he was rubbing his face against the walls because he could not get out and go to His Lord. A sakhi is representing to Krsna the pain of separation which Radharani feels for Him. Previously, she explains, a continuous flow of tears was found in Her eyes, but it is not there anymore. Somehow She has managed to distribute them to Her friends. Now they are weeping like anything, but no trace of tears can be found in Her. She had some temperature in Her body, but now that is also gone. That She has transferred to Her intimate sakhis. Her attendants are now saying many things. Undesirable talks of mourning are found among Her attendants. Previously all those things were found in Srimati Radharani, but somehow She managed to leave them all with Her friends. She had also been absorbed in deep thought. What will be Her fate? Maybe Krsna will never come again. He is doing this and that. So many thoughts were within Her, but now we find no trace. But Her superiors are burdened with those deep thoughts. “O, the girl won’t live. She will pass away very soon. What will be the fate of Braja? If She passes away Krsna won’t come here again”. What little is left in Her we see in the form of hard breathing and beating heart. In a day or two that will also disappear. Now, Krsna, You may remain happy here for your misdeed. Your misdeed is the cause of all these things, but She has managed to relieve you. No complaint will come against you any more. Silently She is passing away keeping You safe while You remain here and enjoy with Your own friends. Prahlada was requested by his father, “Please tell me what progress you are making in your gurukula study. What have you learned to be the best thing in life?” Prahlada answered sravanam kirtanam visnu smaranam pada sevanam archanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam. Iti pumsarpitam visnu bhaktis avalkanam. “I think the best study is this: to hear, chant, and serve – all in relation to Visnu. That is the best utility of time for everyone in the world. Tat sadhu manye sura varya dehinam. This is what I consider to be the best thing I have learned”. Prahlada’s trouble began from here. His father replied, “Visnu is my enemy eternally, and who has taught you that to cultivate love for Him in different ways is the best understanding of human life?” The torture began. We must also be prepared for that torture. Torture will increase our enthusiasm in an indirect way. Anything may come, anything may go on. Wherever that impetus, that intense tendency to serve Krsna is to be found, there we must go. But it is nowhere, it is unknown und unknowable, and in this way transcendental. For Aurobindo it was the supramental plane. In fact he was constructing the figure of Siva, Mahadeva, who belongs to that plane. But instead we see that he has wrongly constructed the figure of something other than Mahadeva. Again, when Bhaktivinod Thakur said that India is the best place in the world, and within India, Bengal is the best; then in Bengal, Nabadwip Dham is the best, the highest of all; Aurobindo imitated him saying that India is the best in the world, and Bengal is, of course, the best in India, and the Hooghly district is the best in Bengal. Then I thought, why has he selected Hooghly eliminating Nabadwip? The recollection then came to me that is was the birth place of Raja Ram Mohan Raya, the founder of the Brahmo Samaj. It was my conclusion that it was only for that reason he had selected Hooghly to be the best. Chitaranjan Das may be as good as Raja Ram Mohan Raya and Rabindranath Tagore, and although his father was a Brahmo, he himself returned to Hinduism telling his friends, “If you write something about me, then please describe me as a servant of a vaisnava”. That was his temperament. He was a good and sincere man, but not a vaisnava of the ghosha, or pure type, but only the ordinary type who had respect for the vaisnavas. Vipin Pala, who was a revolutionary, extremist and the first in violence, could not accommodate the Gandhi movement, but he was closely connected with C.R. Das. Vipin Pala was in fact engaged as the editor of the magazine published by C.R. Das called “Narayan Patrika”. When, as a college student, we read the “Narayan Patrika” we found Vipin Pala’s explanation of Bhagavad-gita, etc. and a lecture he gave in the Viraha meeting at University Hall, Calcutta. In that lecture he mentioned that “Sri Krsna Samhita” written by Bhaktivinod Thakur had taken his faith back to vaisnavism, although he had been a pure Brahmo type when he first read the book. We appreciate that he has acknowledged Bhaktivinod Thakur’s writing to such an extent. Bhaktivinod Thakur’s conception was very scientific, as well as deep, simple and fervent. It was accurate and modernized as well. We find many excellent qualities in the writings of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur. The high type of realized conception Bhaktivinod Thakur has given us should not be conceived as having been acquired by him in his present life, though it may seem to come from the ordinary events of his life. Rather we should assume that this is the natural growth of the jnana sunya bhakta. It is because of fashion that Bhaktivinod Thakur had some other tendency in his married life and all these other things. They should not stand in the way of the fact that he was an eternal associate, servitor of the Lord. Otherwise, such intensity, such depths of feeling cannot come abruptly. So, Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada has seen him as a facsimile of Gadadhara Pandit, and Gaura Kisor Das Babaji as Swarup Damodar. Sometimes he saw Bhaktivinod Thakur as Radharani because his vision was so graphic, spacious, and all comprehensive, filled with deep knowledge and experience. It is impossible unless we consider him to be at least saktyavesa, that is, inspired by the Lord Himself. Bilvamangal Thakur says anartha bandhu karanaik sindhu. “How can I pass these barren days, my Lord? These unfortunate days are impossible for me to pass. Without having a peep of your sight, I cannot stand to live any more. But you are a friend to the helpless, and you are an ocean of kindness and grace. Please consider it my Lord, how can I pass my days without You.” The normal temperament of a devotee will be like that. Separation, of course, will be encouraging. If we find a person is always feeling separation from the Lord that will be appreciated, whereas anything else should be considered abnormal and dangerous. Sometimes there may be some confusion about the relative and absolute consideration. The absolute consideration is our own internal Krsna consciousness, and the relative refers to the environment. One must not be influenced by the environment of the mundane world. But that does not mean he won’t seek an environment of the spiritual realm. That is found through sadhu sanga. In the spiritual plane the environment contributes much. Even Radharani says that Krsna alone cannot satisfy Her without the environment, so She doesn’t want Krsna as such. For instance, in Kuruksetra when She met Krsna, She wanted to take Him back to Vrndavan where Their meeting could be more intimate. The devotee also says, “Only Krsna, that is nothing to me if we do not find Radharani at His side”. So, the environment has a great contribution to make in that realm. Everything there, every minute particle of the environment will help promote my attention towards Krsna. That will be very desirable. But here in the mundane plane, just the opposite is found, the perverted reflection. Everything comes to take me away from Krsna in this plane, and there everything pushes me towards Him. So there in the plane of dedication everything will be healthy. But in the plane of exploitation and renunciation everything is just the opposite, taking me away from the centre, asat sanga. Sadhu sanga means promoting towards my cause. The mundane plane is the perverted reflection, but just above that it is the real plane which is just the opposite of this. So we must not be maladjusted. Asat sanga tvag ei vaisnava achar. The practices of a student of vaisnavism is only one – to renounce the environment; but that does not mean that the sadhu is eliminated also if he is found. Stri sanga eka sadhu krsna bhakta ara. There are two types of asat. One is stri sangi or yosit sangi, those who are attached to sensual pleasures. And the other is Krsna abhakta, one who has no attraction for Krsna but is engaged in other errands, bhukti kami siddhi kami, who have other desires such as for liberation or material perfection. They should be eliminated. We should be careful, cautious about these two. One may be a scholar, a yogi, a tyagi and all these things, but if he is not a devotee of Krsna he should be eliminated. Anyabhilasa karma jnana. Those who have the desire to reach for something, for fruitive activity, to plan for some result, and those who are busy to know Krsna to measure Him, and finish Him by their analysis, these are to be eliminated. Jnana means to always want to measure Krsna or the environment. Jnana means to know, to be master, and to be acquainted with everything. That is jnana, the false errand that I shall be the subject and everything else should be the object of my knowledge. Such wild goose chasing is impossible. It is running after a phantasmagoria, in the words of our Guru Maharaj. Another expression is will-o-the-wisp. It is impossible to know everything and be master of everything. Tvam aham veda sarvani na tvam vetta parantapa. It is not your business to know everything by your constitutional position. It will be folly to bring everything within your consciousness. Jnane prayasam utapasya. Here uta apa asya, where asya means throwing hatefully, and uta means far away. These two adjectives are given for dismissal of knowledge. Only through faith, with the nature of submission can the truth be known. Mahaprabhu has taught trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina mana dena. It is very difficult to conquer one’s fame, or prestige. Pratistha, one’s love for position is very difficult to give up. It is easier to give up attraction for females or money, but hankering for one’s own position is most difficult. Prestige for position is our innermost enemy. So long as that remains we cannot offer ourselves in the service of a vaisnava. I may accept somewhat hesitatingly the service of God, but to serve a vaisnava would be like coming to a lower settlement. In fact, to become the servant of a vaisnava would actually be the all and end all of my life. But how can I accept that idea? I may accept service under the Supreme Lord, that I may anyhow manage. But to become the servant of the servant of the servant – what is this? What is the fun? Should a man stoop so low as this? Therefore, pratistha, position, the consciousness of prestige, is the greatest enemy of the conditioned soul. Radha dasyam means to become a slave, to embrace the ideal, the hope of becoming a slave. To classify oneself as the slave of Krsna is not the end. One must be willing to become the slave of the slave of the slave. “This is the most ludicrous thing. Let them accept this mean settlement; I won’t. So ‘ham. I am the biggest of the big. So ‘ham, Shivo ‘ham. I am the master of maya, Siva. Sivo ‘ham.” This is the point where the false, separate existence from God begins. Transcending mortality one comes to the plane of mangal, auspiciousness, which is good in comparison with the plane of mortality. The first reach beyond the limit of mortality or mrtyaloka, is Mahadeva, Siva. But from Siva we have to pass to sundaram, the land of beauty. Siva is only the middle position or mangalam. But this mangalam is not differentiated in its fullest characteristics at this point, only it is out of danger. To be out of danger is nothing positive, but it is the highest safe position. However, one must not only be safe, but engaged in the most desireable thing. The safe position is relative Siva. Above that is Sada Siva and the plane of positive engagement. Once there was one god brother named Kumar Surendra Narayan Raya, an M.A. graduate of Punjab University. He was a rich man whose annual income was three lakhs. He took Hari Nam from our Guru Maharaj. That gentleman went with him to Celon on one occasion. When Guru Maharaj was passing in a car, Surendranath Narayan Raya, who was out for a walk, met him on the wayside and immediately fell flat in the road offering his obeisances in the mud, since at that time it was the rainy season. Then Prabhupad asked, “What are you doing down in the mud? What are you doing? He has got a rich dress but it is all smeared with mud”. Then Surendranath said, “We have only one thing to do in life – to make prostration to the Vaisnava. We can’t do anything else. Should I be a miser only there? Pranam is our only wealth, everything. If I be a miser there then what will be my fate? Pranam, pramananta eva, that is our only aspiration.” Mahaprabhu once had a talk with one Mathura brahman, Raghupati Upadhyaya, on His way back from Mathura, perhaps in Allahabad. In their talk we find one sloka mentioned. What is the highest conception of figure? The answer was Syamasundar. Syama eva param rupam. What is the highest place of worship? Mathura mandal is the highest place to worship Him. What should be the best age befitting for our service? Kaisora, or new youth. And in what sort of rasa should we try to serve Him? We should try to serve in the mood of madhurya rasa. Mahaprabhu told him that “you have taught Me a good lesson.” We want to worship Kaisora Krsna, we are not going to worship old Krsna. There is Mathura and Dwaraka, but we are fond of worshipping Krsna in Vrndavan, where He has a new, youthful life. His companions are also new youths. The highest point is beauty. The idea of eternity is like that, navayauvana, new, youthful, progressing not full blown, but blossoming. We should not be afraid of our youth, we should adore it. Not that youth will be engaged in pleasure seeking, but in supplying pleasure to the Lord. Utilization, not renunciation is our end. Utilization is the highest good. We want to have our energy in its fullest command. All are youthful in Vrndavan, but well planned, managed, well aimed, and well idealized. Why should we worship anything that is fading or dying? We are worshippers of the full energy to the extreme, but it is absolute good. Our Guru Maharaj said that there is a proverb: when there is fire in the shed, the cow or bull come out because of fear of fire, seeing the red colour there. And when the cow sees the red colour in the sky he again becomes afraid thinking that there is fire and it will come to attack me and burn me. In the same way the mayavadis are suffering from that disease, because they are afraid of energy and opulence and thus they take to renunciation. Wherever there is opulence, youth or beauty, they are afraid, because they are worshippers of the negative side. If they go to enjoy, the reaction will come to get them. But vaisnavas know how to utilize everything for the service of the Lord. So they are not afraid of anything good. All good, attractive, beautiful things, everything they will utilize for the service of the Lord. If our association with the environment is sadhu sanga, with real beauty and love in truth, then everything will come to help us in our search for Krsna, Reality the Beautiful. <HR> <CENTER>Return to </CENTER> <CENTER></NOSCRIPT></CENTER>

". . . When He met Sri Ramananda Raya on the bank of the Godavari, the varnasrama-dharma followed by the Hindus was mentioned by the Lord. Srila Ramananda Raya said that by following the principles of varnasrama-dharma, the system of four castes and four orders of human life, everyone could realize Transcendence. In the opinion of the Lord, the system of varnasrama-dharma is superficial only, and it has very little to do with the highest realization of spiritual values. The highest perfection of life is to get detached from the material attachment and proportionately realize the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead recognizes a living being who is progressing in that line. Devotional service, therefore, is the culmination of the culture of all knowledge. When Sri Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, appeared for the deliverance of all fallen souls, He advised the deliverance of all living entities as follows. The Supreme Absolute Personality of Godhead, from whom all living entities have emanated, must be worshiped by all their respective engagements, because everything that we see is also the expansion of His energy. That is the way of real perfection, and it is approved by all bona fide acaryas past and present. The system of varnasrama is more or less based on moral and ethical principles. There is very little realization of the Transcendence as such, and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected it as superficial and asked Ramananda Raya to go further into the matter. Sri Ramananda Raya then suggested renunciation of fruitive actions unto the Lord. The Bhagavad-gita (9.27) advises in this connection: "Whatever you do, whatever you eat and whatever you give, as well as whatever you perform in penance, offer to Me alone." This dedication on the part of the worker suggests that the Personality of Godhead is a step higher than the impersonal conception of the varnasrama system, but still the relation of the living being and the Lord is not distinct in that way. The Lord therefore rejected this proposition and asked Ramananda Raya to go further. Raya then suggested renunciation of the varnasrama-dharma and acceptance of devotional service. The Lord did not approve of this suggestion also for the reason that all of a sudden one should not renounce his position, for that may not bring in the desired result. It was further suggested by Raya that attainment of spiritual realization freed from the material conception of life is the topmost achievement for a living being. The Lord rejected this suggestion also because on the plea of such spiritual realization much havoc has been wrought by unscrupulous persons; therefore all of a sudden this is not possible. The Raya then suggested sincere association of self-realized souls and hearing submissively the transcendental message of the pastimes of the Personality of Godhead. This suggestion was welcomed by the Lord. This suggestion was made following in the footsteps of Brahmaji, who said that the Personality of Godhead is known as ajita, or the one who cannot be conquered or approached by anyone. But such ajita also becomes jita (conquered) by one method, which is very simple and easy. The simple method is that one has to give up the arrogant attitude of declaring oneself to be God Himself. One must be very meek and submissive and try to live peacefully by lending the ear to the speeches of the transcendentally self-realized soul who speaks on the message of Bhagavata-dharma, or the religion of glorifying the Supreme Lord and His devotees. To glorify a great man is a natural instinct for living beings, but they have not learned to glorify the Lord. Perfection of life is attained simply by glorifying the Lord in association with a self-realized devotee of the Lord. * The self-realized devotee is he who surrenders unto the Lord fully and who does not have attachment for material prosperity. Material prosperity and sense enjoyment and their advancement are all activities of ignorance in human society. Peace and friendship are impossible for a society detached from the association of God and His devotees. It is imperative, therefore, that one sincerely seek the association of pure devotees and hear them patiently and submissively from any position of life. The position of a person in the higher or lower status of life does not hamper one in the path of self-realization. The only thing one has to do is to hear from a self-realized soul with a routine program. The teacher may also deliver lectures from the Vedic literatures, following in the footsteps of the bygone acaryas who realized the Absolute Truth. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended this simple method of self-realization generally known as Bhagavata-dharma. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the perfect guide for this purpose. * The International Society for Krishna Consciousness has been formed for this purpose" Introduction Srimad Bhagavatam pp. 28-29 HSGACBSP