Puru_Das

TEXT 12 tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya pasyanty atmani catmanam bhaktya sruta-grhitaya SYNONYMS tat--that; sraddadhanah--seriously inquisitive; munayah--sages; jnana--knowledge; vairagya--detachment; yuktaya--well equipped with; pasyanti--see; atmani--within himself; ca--and; atmanam--the Paramatma; bhaktya--in devotional service; sruta--the Vedas; grhitaya--well received. TRANSLATION The seriously inquisitive student or sage, well equipped with knowledge and detachment, realizes that Absolute Truth by rendering devotional service in terms of what he has heard from the Vedanta-sruti. PURPORT The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord, Vasudeva, or the Personality of Godhead, who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramatma is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramatma realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of human beings--the karmis, the jnanis, the yogis and the devotees. The karmis are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the absolute person. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita and other Vedic literatures, the Supreme Person is realized by devotional service, which is backed by full knowledge and detachment from material association. We have already discussed the point that devotional service is followed by knowledge and detachment from material association. As Brahman and Paramatma realization are imperfect realizations of the Absolute Truth, so the means of realizing Brahman and Paramatma, i.e., the paths of jnana and yoga, are also imperfect means of realizing the Absolute Truth. Devotional service, which is based on the foreground of full knowledge combined with detachment from material association and which is fixed by the aural reception of the Vedanta-sruti, is the only perfect method by which the seriously inquisitive student can realize the Absolute Truth. Devotional service is not, therefore, meant for the less intelligent class of transcendentalist. There are three classes of devotees, namely first, second, and third class. The third-class devotees, or the neophytes, who have no knowledge and are not detached from material association, but who are simply attracted by the preliminary process of worshiping the Deity in the temple, are called material devotees. Material devotees are more attached to material benefit than transcendental profit. Therefore, one has to make definite progress from the position of material devotional service to the second-class devotional position. In the second-class position, the devotee can see four principles in the devotional line, namely the Personality of Godhead, His devotees, the ignorant and the envious. One has to raise himself at least to the stage of a second-class devotee and thus become eligible to know the Absolute Truth. A third-class devotee, therefore, has to receive the instructions of devotional service from the authoritative sources of Bhagavata. The number one Bhagavata is the established personality of devotee, and the other Bhagavatam is the message of Godhead. The third-class devotee therefore has to go to the personality of devotee in order to learn the instructions of devotional service. Such a personality of devotee is not a professional man who earns his livelihood by the business of Bhagavatam. Such a devotee must be a representative of Sukadeva Gosvami, like Suta Gosvami, and must preach the cult of devotional service for the all-around benefit of all people. A neophyte devotee has very little taste for hearing from the authorities. Such a neophyte devotee makes a show of hearing from the professional man to satisfy his senses. This sort of hearing and chanting has spoiled the whole thing, so one should be very careful about the faulty process. The holy messages of Godhead, as inculcated in the Bhagavad-gita or in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, are undoubtedly transcendental subjects, but even though they are so, such transcendental matters are not to be received from the professional man, who spoils them as the serpent spoils milk simply by the touch of his tongue. A sincere devotee must, therefore, be prepared to hear the Vedic literature like the Upanisads, Vedanta and other literatures left by the previous authorities or Gosvamis, for the benefit of his progress. Without hearing such literatures, one cannot make actual progress. And without hearing and following the instructions, the show of devotional service becomes worthless and therefore a sort of disturbance in the path of devotional service. Unless, therefore, devotional service is established on the principles of sruti, smrti, purana or pancaratra authorities, the make-show of devotional service should at once be rejected. An unauthorized devotee should never be recognized as a pure devotee. By assimilation of such messages from the Vedic literatures, one can see the all-pervading localized aspect of the Personality of Godhead within his own self constantly. This is called samadhi. SB 1.2.12 HDGACBSP

There is enough contention on this thread already. We might we better advised to keep the Sampradaya Sun discussions on that website where they belong. I am certain that Bhagavata Prabhu will more than adequately respond to Murali Krsna Swami's advocacy that institutional loyalty supercedes guru, sadhu and shastra. SGGM had high aspirations for ISKCON, and had Krsna allowed him to stay with us longer I have no doubt he would have even more strenuously opposed the gbc's various apasiddhantic positions. SGGM was not a blind follower of gbc political agendas. He had read Jaiva Dharma and many other granthas in their original language, and preached very boldly regarding guru tattva, sadhu-sanga and jiva tattva. The gbc was getting ready to remove him from iskcon. He would not be removed and left the planet by Krsna's divine arrangement before the gbc could act against him. In the light of so much enmity on this thread toward the principle of accepting a siksa guru, or embracing sadhu sanga regardless of Institutional affiliation, his words are certainly worth considering now: A Society Without Envy<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> [This wonderful lecture was one of the last given by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja, before departing from this world] <o:p></o:p> Mayapura: February 21, 1995 - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.18.33 - 36<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> gunadhikam mudam lipsed<o:p></o:p> anukrosam gunadhamat<o:p></o:p> maitrim samanad anvicchen<o:p></o:p> na tapair abhibhuyate <o:p></o:p> Translation: Every man should act like this: when he meets a person more qualified than himself he should be very pleased; when he meets someone less qualified than himself, he should be compassionate toward him; and when he meets someone equal to himself, he should make friendship with him. In this way one is never affected by the threefold miseries of this material world. <o:p></o:p> Purport by Srila Prabhupada: Generally when we find someone more qualified than ourselves, we become envious of him; when we find someone less qualified, we deride him; and when we find someone equal we become very proud of our activities. Theses are the causes of all material tribulations. The great sage Narada therefore advised that a devotee should act perfectly. Instead of being envious of a more qualified man, one should be jolly to receive him. Instead of being oppressive to a less qualified man, one should be compassionate toward him just to raise him to the proper standard. And when one meets an equal, instead of being proud of one's own activities before him, one should treat him as friend. One should also have compassion for the people in general, who are suffering due to forgetfulness of Krsna. These important functions will make one happy within this material world. <o:p></o:p> Lecture by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> These are the instructions of Narada Muni. Narada Muni is a mahajana, and this is mahajana-vakya, the words of a great personality. Mahajana yei kahe, se satya mani --- what a sadhu-mahajana says, that is truth, satya. Mahasano yena gatah sa pranthah --- the mahajana has shown us the path, and that is the path we have to tread. We have to follow the footprints of the mahajanas. There is no need of manufacturing some new path. Here Narada Muni instructs Dhruva Maharaja how to be happy here --- how one should behave and how he should deal with others so that he will never be affected by the threefold miseries of the material world. "When he meets a person more qualified than himself, he should be very pleased; when he meets someone less qualified than himself, he should be compassionate toward him; and when he meets someone equal to himself, he should make friendship with him." These are the dealings of a Vaisnava, a devotee. One who is not a vaisnava, he behaves in the opposite way. As Srila Prabhupada has said in his purport: "Generally we find someone less qualified, we deride him; and when we find someone equal we become very proud of our activities. These are the causes of all material tribulations." Whatever is said here by Narada Muni describes the behavior of a Vaisnava, especially a madhyama-adhikari (second class) Vaisnava. <o:p></o:p> srimad-bhagvatam pramanam amalam prema pum-artho mahan sri caitany mahaprabhor matam idam tatradaro na parah (Caitanya matta manjusa) <o:p></o:p> Srimad-Bhagvatam is amala-pramana, the spotless proof, and prema-pum-artho mahan, prema bhakti is the highest truth. These are the opinions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. <o:p></o:p> bhgavati je na mane se yavana sama<o:p></o:p> tara sasta ache janme hanme prabhu yama<o:p></o:p> (CB. Adi, 1.39) <o:p></o:p> On who does not accept Srimad-Bhagavatam is a mleccha and a yavana. He is to be punished by Yamaraj, not for one life, but janme janme -- life after life. So we should accept Srimad Bhagvatam, and all mahajana vakyas are there. <o:p></o:p> Madhyama-adhikari<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> These are the dealings of a madhyama-adhikari: <o:p></o:p> isvare tad-adhinesu<o:p></o:p> balisesu dvisatsu ca<o:p></o:p> prema-maitri-krpopeksa<o:p></o:p> yah karoti sa madhyamah<o:p></o:p> (Bhag. 11.2.46) <o:p></o:p> Isvare, one who has developed love for isvara, love for the Supreme Lord Krsna; tad-adhinesu, one who has developed friendship with those who are equal Vaisnavas; balisesu, one who becomes compassionate or merciful towards balisa, ignorant fools, murkha, and dvisatsu ca, one who ignores an offender is a madhyama-adhikari. A madhyama-adhikari behaves in this way. <o:p></o:p> In Harinama Cintamani also Bhaktivinoda Thakura Mahajana, a great acarya in our Gaudiya Vaisnava-parampara, has said like this: <o:p></o:p> krsne prema krsna bhakte maitri acarana<o:p></o:p> balisete krpa ara dvesi upeksana<o:p></o:p> karile madhyuama-bhakta suddha-bhakta hana<o:p></o:p> krsna-name adhikara karena arjana<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Krsne prema krsna-bhakte maitri acarana, one who develops love for Krsna and makes friendship with krsna bhaktas; balisete krpa, one who becomes compassionate or merciful towards a balisa, a murkha, and ignorant fool; are dvesi upeksana, one who ignores an offender; someone who behaves like this is a madhyama-bhakta. Madhyama-bhakta suddha--bhakta hana, such a madhyama-bhakta becomes a suddha-bhakta, a pure devotee. Then what happens? Krsna-name adhikara karena arajana, then he gets adhikara (qualification) in chanting krsna-nama. This is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's instruction. <o:p></o:p> Kanistha-adhikari<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In this connection we'll also speak about who is a kanishta-adhikari: <o:p></o:p> arcayam eva haraye<o:p></o:p> pujam yah sraddayehate<o:p></o:p> na tad-bhaktesu canyesu<o:p></o:p> sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah<o:p></o:p> (Bhag. 11.2.47) <o:p></o:p> A kanistha-adhikari is one who offers worship to the Deity form of Lord Hari, arca-vigraha, according to laukika-sraddha (ordinary faith), not sastriya-sraddha (faith based on sastra). It is a question of sraddha. Two types of sraddha are there, sastriya-sraddha and laukika sraddha. When we speak of sraddha we mean sastriya-sraddha. One should develop sastriya-sraddha, not laukika sraddha. And, na tad-bhaktesu canyesu sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah, one who doesn't pay respect to hari bhakta, the devotee of Lord Hari, and isn't compassionate toward other living entities in whom Lord Hari is present, he is a kanistha-bhakta. <o:p></o:p> Uttama-adhikari<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Then who is an uttama-adhikari?: <o:p></o:p> sarva-bhutesu yah pasyed<o:p></o:p> bhagavad-bhavam atmanah<o:p></o:p> bhutani bhagavaty atmany<o:p></o:p> esa bhagavatottamah<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "The most advanced devotee sees within everything the soul of all souls, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. Consequently he sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord and understands that everything that exists is eternally situated within the Lord." (Bhag. 11.2.45) Also in Caitanya-caritamrta, Stavara-jangama dekhe, na dekhe tara murti<o:p></o:p> Sarvatra haya nija ista-deva-sphurti (Madhya 8.274) <o:p></o:p> This is uttama-adhikari. He sees the moving and nonmoving entities, sthaivara-jangama, but he never sees their outward form. What does he see? He sees his ista, his most beloved Deity, Krsna, everywhere, sarvatra haya nija ista-deva-sphurti. This is a completely Krsna conscious person. And who is completely Krsna conscious and what is complete Krsna consciousness? Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita: <o:p></o:p> yo man pasyati sarvatra<o:p></o:p> sarvan ca mayi pasyati<o:p></o:p> tasyaham na panasyami<o:p></o:p> sa ca me napanasyati <o:p></o:p> (Bg. 6.30) <o:p></o:p> "One who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, he is completely Krsna conscious, tasyaham na panasyami sa ca mena panasyati. I am never out of his sight and he is never out of my sight. He sees Me, I see him. This is complete krsna consciousness. That is an uttama-adhikari. Stavara-jangama dekhe, na dekhe tara murti, sarvatra haya nija ista-deva-sphurti, he sees moving and nonmoving entities but never sees the outward form. Everywhere he sees his ista, his most beloved Deity, who is there in the heart, Lord Krsna. That is an uttama-adhikari. <o:p></o:p> Then there is bhagavata-uttama. Who is a bhagavata-uttama? <o:p></o:p> visrjati hrdayam na yasya saksad<o:p></o:p> dharir avasabhihito Œpy aghaugha-nasah<o:p></o:p> pranaya-rasanaya dhrtanghri-padmah<o:p></o:p> sa bhavati bhagavata-pradhana uktah<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "One who chants the holy name of the Supreme Lord, Hari, even unconsciously is freed from all sins. When Lord Hari grants liberation from sin to one who even unconsciously or negligently chants His holy name, the position of one who never abandons the shelter of His lotus feet must be considered highly exalted. Such a devotee can never give up the association of the Lord, nor can the Lord give up his association of the Lord, nor can the Lord give up his association. Krsna Himself dwells eternally within his heart. Such a great soul is known as bhagavata-pradhana --- the most exalted devotee of the Lord." (Bhag. 11.2.55) <o:p></o:p> By uttering the name of hari all sinful reactions are destroyed, and that Hari is bound up in the heart of a Vaisanva, pranaya-rasanaya, but the rope of love. In other words, Lord Hari never leaves the heart of such a Vaisnava, a bhagavata-uttama. <o:p></o:p> According to Faith<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Also in Caitanya-caritamrta Kaviraja Gosvami has spoken of these three types of Vaisnavas. <o:p></o:p> Sraddhavan jana haya bhakti-adhikari<o:p></o:p> Œuttama', Œmadhyamna', Œkanistha'---sraddha anusari<o:p></o:p> (CC. Madhya 22.64) <o:p></o:p> According to one's sraddha, faith, one's eligibility for bhakti is classified as uttama, madhyama or kanistha. <o:p></o:p> sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra<o:p></o:p> Œuttama-adhikari' sei taraye samsara<o:p></o:p> (CC. Madhya 22.65) <o:p></o:p> One who is very expert in presenting sastric evidences and who has unflinching faith in sadhu-sastra-guru, unflinching faith in Krsna, drdha-sraddha, he is uttama-adhikari. Taraye samsara, he can deliver the whole world. <o:p></o:p> sastra yukti nahi jane drdha, sraddhavan<o:p></o:p> madhyama-adhikari sei maha-bhagyavan<o:p></o:p> (CC. Madhya 22.67) <o:p></o:p> Who is madhyama-adhikari? He doesn't know so much sastra-yukti, logical arguments on the basis of revealed scripture, but he is drdha sraddhavan, he has strong faith in sadhu-sastra-guru, strong faith in Krsna. Sadgati-padata krsne karaha visvasa, put complete faith, unflinching faith, in Krsna, who is adgati-padata. One who does so is madhyama-adhikari. Sei maha-bhagyavan, he is very fortunate. <o:p></o:p> Two Kinds of Faith<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Yahara komala sraddha, se Œkanistha' jana<o:p></o:p> Krame krame tenho bhakta haibe Œuttama'<o:p></o:p> (CC. Madhya 22.69) <o:p></o:p> One who has not developed sastriya-sraddha (faith in sastra) but has developed only laukika-sraddha (faith in what common people say), he is kanistha-adhikari. Sastriya-sraddha is described in Caitanya-caritamrta: <o:p></o:p> Œsraddha'‹sabde---visvasa kahe sudrdhna niscaya krsne bhakti kaile sarva karma krta jaya (CC. Madhya 22.62) <o:p></o:p> Sraddha means visvas, faith, sudrdha, very strong faith, unflinching faith. Faith in what? Faith in sadhu-sastra-guru, faith in Krsna. This is faith. If someone develops krsna-bhakti, all his activities are finished, krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. Nothing is left out if you have faith. <o:p></o:p> yahara koimala sraddha, se'kanistha'jana<o:p></o:p> krame krama tenho bhakta haive'uttama'<o:p></o:p> (CC Madhya 22.69)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Whose sraddha is soft, who has not developed sastriya-sraddha, only laukika-sraddha, he is kanistha jana, a neophyte. By associating with more elevated Vaisnavas, hearing from them and putting firm faith in their words, gradually he will make advancement and ultimately also become uttama. <o:p></o:p> What is sastriya-sraddha and what is laukika-sraddha? Sastriya sraddha means unflinching faith in the sastriya siddhantas, the teachings which are given especially as found in the Srimad Bhagavatam, which is the essence of all Vedas, Vedanta, and Upanishadas: <o:p></o:p> sarva-vedanta-saram hi<o:p></o:p> srimad-bhagavatam isyate<o:p></o:p> tad-rasamrta-trptasya<o:p></o:p> nanyatra syad ratih kvacit<o:p></o:p> (Bhag. 12.13.15) <o:p></o:p> Srila Jiva Gosvami has put emphasis on sastriya-sraddha. One should develop sastriya-sraddha, not laukika-sraddha. One who is a neophyte devotee, a kanistha-adhikari, he has only faith in the words of materialistic people, materialistic scientists, philosophers, etc. He has not developed faith in the words of sadhus, Vaisnavas, mahajanas, those who are acaryas. <o:p></o:p> For example, people in this locality say, "Oh there is a ghost in that tree." Then someone comes and hears from them. He says, "Oh, the people say there is a ghost in that tree." If he comes to this area when the electricity is off and there is dense darkness, he may see something --- as if someone is standing there wearing white cloth. "Oh, yes! A ghost is there." Because he has heard it from these people. This is laukika-sraddha. But when the electricity comes, he sees, "Oh, what is this" Oh, it is only a dead tree". Because it looks white he thinks it is a ghost. <o:p></o:p> We should not develop laukika-sraddha. We should develop sastriya-sraddha. Unless you develop sastriya-sraddha, unless you deal with others as Narada Muni has instructed here, then you will be affected by the threefold miseries of this material world. You will never be happy <o:p></o:p> Vaisnava aparadha<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So who are offenders? Skanda Purana states that there are six types of offenders and they all fall down and go to raurava, naraka (hell). <o:p></o:p> nindam kurvanti ye mudha<o:p></o:p> vaisnavanam mahatmanam<o:p></o:p> patanti pitrbhih sardham<o:p></o:p> maharaurava-samjnite<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> hanti nindati vai dvesthi<o:p></o:p> vaisnavan-nabhi-nandati<o:p></o:p> krudhyate yati na harsam<o:p></o:p> krudhyate yati na harsam<o:p></o:p> darsane patanani sat<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Skanda Purana says, nindam kurvanti ye mudha vaisnavanam mahatmanam --- those who blaspheme a mahatma Vaisnava, they are great offenders. Patanti pitrbhih sardham maharaurava-samhnite - they definitely go to maha-raurava, naraka. Not only them, but pitrbhih (all his ancestors also). The six types of offenders are: those who try to kill a Vaisnava; those who blaspheme a Vaisnava; those who upon seeing a Vaisnava do not pay pranama, obeisances, those who become angry with a Vaisnava; those who develop enmity with a Vaisnava; and those who upon seeing a Vaisnava do not become jolly, but instead curve their faces, "Oh who is he!" They are offenders. Here Prabhupada says, "Instead of being envious of a more qualified man, one should be jolly to receive him." Instead of becoming jolly, such a person becomes envious and covers his face. He is an offender. These six types of offenders fall down to maha-raurava, naraka. <o:p></o:p> See Krsna Everywhere<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada formed this society for Krsna consciousness. It is a society of Vaisnavas. Why did he form the society? Because those who will become members of this society should develop complete Krsna consciousness. That opportunity is given here. <o:p></o:p> yo mam pasyati sarvatra<o:p></o:p> sarvam camayi pasyati<o:p></o:p> tasyaham na pranasyami<o:p></o:p> sa ca me na panasyati<o:p></o:p> (Bg. 6.30) <o:p></o:p> This Bhagavad-gita verse describes complete Krsna consciousness. Krsna says that one who sees Him everywhere, stharva-jangama dekhe, na dekhe tara murti, sarvatra haya nija ista-deva-sphurti, he sees the different moving and nonmoving entities, but he never sees their outward form. He sees his ista, his move beloved Diety, Krsna everywhere. Who is such a person? <o:p></o:p> bhakta ama preme bandhiyache hrdaya-bhitare<o:p></o:p> jahan netra pade tahan dekhaye amare<o:p></o:p> (Cc. Madhya 25.127) <o:p></o:p> That devotee who as bound Me up in his heart with the rope of love, jahan netra pade tahan dekhaye amare such a bhakta, wherever he looks he sees Me. Such a premi-bhakta, who has bound up Krsna with the rope of love in his heart, he can see Krsna everywhere. Otherwise no one can see Krsna everywhere. <o:p></o:p> Krsna also says: <o:p></o:p> naham prakasah sasrvasya<o:p></o:p> yoga-maya-samavrtah<o:p></o:p> mudho'yam nabhijanati<o:p></o:p> loko mam ajam avyayam<o:p></o:p> (Bg. 7.25) <o:p></o:p> These are the words of Krsna. "I am never manifest before everyone, I am never manifest everywhere. I am covered by My yoga-maya potency. Mudho Œyam nabhijanati. Krsna says they are mudhas, rascals, "They cannot see Me. They cannot understand Me." In other words, Krsna keeps Himself hidden. But if Krsna keeps Himself hidden, how can we see Him? Who can see Him? Bhakta ama preme bandhiyache hrdaya-bhitare, jahannetra pade tahan dekhaye amare. Only such a premi-bhakta can see Him, one who has developed krsna-prema, who has bound up Krsna in his heart with the rope of love. This bondage is very, very strong. Even Krsna, who is almighty, cannot break it. He says na paraye na paraye na paraye, I cannot, I cannot, I cannot. Such bondage is so strong. Krsna cannot keep Himself hidden before the eyes of such a premi-bhakta. A premi-bhakta sees Him everywhere, though Krsna keeps Himself hidden. <o:p></o:p> Society Without Envy<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is the society for Krsna consciousness formed by Srila Prabhupada. One who becomes a member of this society gets the opportunity to develop complete Krsna consciousness, to see Krsna everywhere. <o:p></o:p> yo mam pasyati sarvatra<o:p></o:p> sarvam ca mayi pasyati<o:p></o:p> tasyaham na panansyami<o:p></o:p> sa ca me na panasyati<o:p></o:p> (Bg. 6.30) <o:p></o:p> This is the goal. Prabhupada has written in his books, "The Krsna consciousness movement aims at creating an atmosphere of non-envy. Of course, it is not possible for everyone to become Krsna conscious, but the Krsna consciousness movement can create an exemplary society wherein there is no envy." Where is the question of enviousness? One who is envious is not a Krsna conscious person. In other words, he is not a Vaisnava. A real Vaisnava sadhu is not at all envious. He sees every jiva as Krsna's jiva. Krsna is the object of his love, so how will he be envious? <o:p></o:p> Enviousness means lust. What does that mean? Pride is your enemy, crookedness (kapata). If someone is making advancement on the spiritual path, others become envious of him. They cannot tolerate it. "Oh, he is making such advancement." They start to speak all nasty things about him. Combining together, they start pulling down on him and attacking him. This is enviousness. In a society of Vaisnavas that should not be done. A Vaisnava is not envious at all, atra paramo nirmatsaranam satam vedyam. Who understands bhagavata-dharma-tattva? Only a Vaisnava, who is non-envious can understand. Others will speculate, "Oh, this is that, this is that." Only speculation will go on because they cannot understand. They are not Vaisnavas, they are all envious persons. Prabhupada says, "One who is envious of the success of a Vaisnava is certainly not a Vaisnava himself but an ordinary mundane man." He may be pretending to be a Vaisnava, but actually he is only an ordinary mundane man. <o:p></o:p> If the purpose of forming his society fails, how will Sria Prabhupada be happy ? This is a most important factor. So here it is said, "Generally when we find someone more qualified than ourselves, we become envious of him." This is the general nature of people who are avaisnavas; who are not Vaisnavas, they become envious when they see a person more qualified than themselves. But a Vaisnava, who is completely Krsna conscious, he'll never become envious. "Instead of being envious of a more qualified man one should be jolly to receive him." Krsne prema krsna-bhakte maitri acarana -- he who develops krsna-prema, he develops friendship with Vaisnavas, krsna-bhaktas. And when he sees a more qualified Vaisnava than himself he becomes jolly. That is a real Vaisnava, a pure Vaisnava. This is the purpose for which Srila Prabhupada formed this society for Krsna consciousness. <o:p></o:p> Compassion<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Therefore Prabhupada says, “The Krsna consciousness movement can create an exemplary society wherein there is no envy at all." Prabhupada says in the concluding lines of his purport, "One should also have compassion for the people in general who are suffering due to forgetfullness of Krsna.” Who becomes compassionate for the people in general? One who is a completely Krsna conscious person, who sees Krsna everywhere; only he can become compassionate. Otherwise, how can one have compassion? The jiva is suffering. He is Krsna's jiva, so why is he suffering? It's because of his forgetfulness of Krsna. One who sees Krsna and who sess the jiva's relationsip with Krsna, he becomes compassionate. Otherwise, there is no question of compassion. This is most important. Only such a Vaisnava who sees Krsna everywhere is a completely Krsna conscious person. He becomes compassionate. <o:p></o:p> Prahlada Maharaja, a pure devotee, saw his most beloved Lord in a stone pillar. "Yes, the lord is everywhere." However when his very powerful demoniac father Hiranyakasipu, who had conquered the three worlds, heard his son Prahlada Maharaja speak like this, he became angry, "Why you say He's everywhere. Is He there in this stone pillar?" Who sees? A completely Krsna conscious person, a premi-bhakta, always sees. Bhakta ama preme bandhiyache hrdanya-bhitare, jahan netra pade tahan dekhaye amare; wherever he looks he sees Krsna. Krsna gives him darsana. Krsna cannot keep Himself hidden from the vision of such a completely Krsna conscious person, a premi-bhakta, always sees. Bhakta ama preme bandhiyache hrdaya-bhitare, jahan netra pade tahan dekhaye amare; wherever he looks he sees Krsna. Krsna gives him darsana. Krsna cannot keep Himself hidden form the vision of such a completely Krsna conscious person, premi-bhakta. The premi-bhakta says, "Yes, He's there." But his demoniac father, who had conquered over the three worlds, could not see. <o:p></o:p> It is a question of vision. One who sees Krsna everywhere, one who sees krsna-sambandha; the relationship with Krsna, that the jiva is suffering because of a lack of Krsna consciousness, he will think , "Let me go and inculcate Krsna consciousness into others." That is the real beneficial work. Therefore, if one develops Krsna consciousness, understands his position, and establishes his relationship with Krsna, there will be no suffering at all. Such a Vaisnava who sees Krsna and krsna-sambandha everywhere, his heart bleeds seeing the suffering of the jivas here. He cannot sit tightly. He will go out and preach the science of Krsna consciousness. "Yes, let everyone be Krsna conscious, let everyone be happy." <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada's Purpose<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Therefore, in this verse Narada Muni sayus, "Every man should act like this." So there will be no miseries at all. This world will be turned into a vaikuntha jagat, "When he meets a person more qualified than himself he should be very pleased." There should be no enviousness. This enviousness is one of your enemies. Kama, kridha, lobha, moha, mada, matsarya; in Sanskrit it is matsarya. Enviousness is one of your six enemies. <o:p></o:p> The second verse of Bhagavatam says, darmah projhita-kaitavo Œtra paramo nirmatsaranam satam vedyam. Who can understand bhagavata-dharma-tattva; what is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam? Paramo nirmatsaranam stam bedyam. Satam means devotee, Vaisnavas. Paramo nirmatsaranam; those who are not envious at all. Only they can understand Srimad-Bhagavatam. Only they can understand bhagavata-dharma-tattva. Otherwise the Bhagavata will never appear, never manifest at all. This is a most important thing and this is the purpose for which Srila Prabhupada formed the Society for Krsna Consciousness. The Krsna consciousness movement aims at creating an atmosphere of non-envy. "Of course it is not possible for everyone to become Krsna conscious, but the Krsna movement can create an exemplary society wherein there is no envy." This is the purpose of Srila Prabhupada, the Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, International Society for Krsna Conscoiusness; that all should be pure Vaisnavas, Vaisnava in the true sense. A Vaisnava is not envious. He's nirmatsara, not envious at all. That is Vaisnava. Here Prabhupada says, "Generally when we find someone more qualified than ourselves we become envious of him." All mahajanas have said. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has said. Sastra says. Narada Muni, a mahajana, here he says. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Wicked Person<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Bhaktivinoda Thakura Mahajana, who is considered the Seventh Goswami, a great acarya in our Gaudiya-Vaisnava-parampara has said (Sarangati 4): <o:p></o:p> parere udvegadiyachi je kata<o:p></o:p> diyachi jivere klesa<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I am such a rascal, such an envious person. I always give pain to others and put them in anxiety. <o:p></o:p> nija sukha lagi'pape nahi dori<o:p></o:p> daya-hina svartha-para<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I am very selfish for my own name, fame, adoration and prestige‹for my own happiness. <o:p></o:p> I am not afraid of committing any sinful activity. Daya-hita, I am a merciless preson a greatly selfish person. <o:p></o:p> Para sudhe dukhisada mithya-bhasi<o:p></o:p> Para-dukha sukha-kara<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When I see someone is becoming more advanced it is very painful to me, so I become envious. Sada-mithya, I only speak lies. Para-dukha sukha-kara, when I see someone is suffering I become jolly, "Yes, very good, very good!" <o:p></o:p> asesa kamanahrdi majhe mora<o:p></o:p> krodhi dambha-parayana<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So many material desires are there in my heart. I gen angry in flimsy cases. Dambha-parayana. I am proud, puffed up fellow, "I am great! Is there anyone greater than I?" Especially in Kali yuga, the most degraded age, this pride is the measuring rod. Everyone thinks, "I am great" Then another says, "What? You are great? I am great!" Then fighting , quarrelling begins. This is Kali yuga. This dambha, pride, is the measuring rod. Two persons quarrel. Two groups quarrel. Two neighbors quarrel and fight. Two states, two nations, "I am great! Hey! What are you? You are great? I am great!!" Then fighting. This is dambha (pride). <o:p></o:p> mada-matta sadavisaye mohita<o:p></o:p> himsa-garva vibhusana<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I am always puffed-up and proud, intoxicated with the desire for material enjoyment. I am a great materialistic person, and hims-garva, always envious and proud. These are my ornaments, vibhusana. <o:p></o:p> nidralasya hata sukarye virata<o:p></o:p> akarye udyogi ami<o:p></o:p> pratistha lagiyasathya-arcana<o:p></o:p> lobha-hata sada kami<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Such a person is a lazy fellow. He sleeps too much and never does any good work. He is always very enthusiastic to do evil, nasty, abominable activities for his own prestige, name fame and adoration. Sathya-arcana, he acts in a very duplicitous, crooked way. Lobha-hata sada kami, so much lust is in his heart. <o:p></o:p> e heno durjanasajana-varjita<o:p></o:p> aparadhi nirantara<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is durjana, not sajjana. Such a person is rejected by sajjanas. He is always an aparadhi, a great offender, so his dealings are very crooked, duplicitous dealings. As it is said in the verse, "When one finds someone more qualified than himself he becomes envious of him. When one finds someone less qualified he derides him. When one finds someone equal with him he becomes proud of his activities. These are the causes of all material tribulations. "Such a person is a durjana, a most wicked person. He is not a sajjana. He's an aparadhi, always a great offender. <o:p></o:p> subha-karya-sunyasada-anartha-mana<o:p></o:p> nana dukhe jara-jara<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> He never does anything auspicious. He's covered up, surrounded with so many anarthas. He's nana dukhe jara-jara, always afflicted, by the threefold miseries of this material world. He will never be happy at all. <o:p></o:p> This is the statement of Narada Muni, "Every man should act like this: when he meets a person more qualified than himself, he should be very pleased; when he meets someone less qualified than himself, he should be compassionate toward him; and when he meets someone equal to himself, he should make friendship with him." Otherwise he'll suffer. "In this way one is never affected by the threefold miseries of this world." This is the statement of sadhu-sastra-mahajanas. <o:p></o:p> QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: I appreciate very much that you explained to us how Srila Prabhupada's purpose is to create a society without envy. <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: That I quoted from Prabhupada's purports from Srimad-Bhagavatam. <o:p></o:p> Devotee: We see that amongst devotees that are most advanced, the principle is trnad api sunincena taror api sahisnuna. It's not an artificial thing to actually believe… <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Not artificial, baba! How many days can you act like this? Before your svarupa (real form) will be revealed! How many days can it go on artificially. But with a Vaisnava it's quite natural. <o:p></o:p> Devotee: My question is, Srila Prabhupada has said that even if one does not have the practical vision that Krsna is behind everything, is in everything, and is connected to everything, still, if one understands this theoretically he is a devotee that is rightly situated. <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Rightly situated? One who sees theoretically is rightly situated? <o:p></o:p> Real Compassion?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: But if one has theoretical understanding that he has gotten form the words of the spiritula master, then one is rightly situated. So in your class you said that only the topmost devotee can be compassionate. <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, only one who sees Krsna. <o:p></o:p> Devotee: So my question is, does that mean no one else can be compassionate? <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: One may be compassionate to fulfill his own selfish desire. One may be compassionate to some and not compassionate to others. He has raga and dvesa, liking and disliking. He is not equal to one and all. He cannot be. Unless one sees Krsna how can he be compassionate? He will see, this is Krsna's jiva suffering. His heart bleeds. He cannot sit tight. He will go out and preach Krsna consciousness. And who preaches? Prana ache yara, sei hetu pracara; one who has life? What is life? Jivanam sarva-bhutesu. Krsna says, "I am jivan, I am the life in all living entities." One who sees Krsna everywhere. Who sees Krsna's jiva suffering because of forgetfulness of Krsna, because of a lack of Krsna conscoiusness; he has prana, life. He goes out and preaches. He is completely surrendered to Krsna. Therefore Krsna came as Mahaprabhu, as a bhakta (a devotee), to teach devotion, to teach how to surrender unto Krsna (sikhaya sarangati bhakater prana). Saranagati is the life of the devotee who is completely surrendered. Krsna tare kore atmasara (then Krsna accepts him). Prana ache yara, sei hetu pracara (he has got life, therefore he goes out and preaches). Otherwise, who can preach? How can one preach unless one sees Krsna, sees Krsna's jiva suffering? He does not want anyone to suffer. Everyone should be Krsna conscious. Therefore, here Narada Muni says that everyone should act like this. This is the purpose of Srila Prabhupada forming the society for Krsna consciousness. <o:p></o:p> Uttama Acting as Madhyama<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: Maharaja, a madhyama-adhikari has strong faith in the process of Krsna consciousness but he doesn't have a very good knowledge of the scriptures. How can he preach if he doesn't have good knowledge of the scriptures? <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: He should have it by associating with an uttama adhikari. He should get it. Maha-bhagyavan, he's very fortunate [the madhyama-adhikari] because he has strong faith. This is most important. Adau sraddha, the first thing is your faith. He has strong faith in the words of sadhu-sastra-guru. He has strong fiath in Krsna. He puts faith in Krsna, in the words of Krsna. And sadhus, those who are mahajanas, they speak what Krsna has said. <o:p></o:p> Devotee: If an uttama-adhikari wants to preach, generally he comes down to the level of madhyama and acts like a madhyama. <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Otherwise he cannot preach, because an uttama-adhikari sees moving and nonmoving living entities, but he never sees the outward form. He always sees Krsna. <o:p></o:p> sthavara-jangama dekhe,na dekhe tara murti<o:p></o:p> sarvatra haya nija ista-deva-sphurti<o:p></o:p> (Madhya 8.274) <o:p></o:p> He sees only Krsna. He says, "Oh, this living entity is Krsna's devotee, he is engaged in Krsna's service." He never sees the outward form. His vision is completely different. Therefore he steps down to madhyama, otherwise how can he speak? How can he see that the jiva is suffering from a lack of Krsna consciousness, from forgetfulness of Krsna? Therefore, one who preaches, he steps down to madhyama-adhikari; but he's uttama-adhikari, otherwise he cannot preach. Those who are uttama-bhagavata, cannot preach. Therefore, one who preaches steps down to the madhyama-adhikari stage. But he is not a madhyama as described here, sastra-yukti nahi jane; who doesn't know sastra. The uttama-adhikari knows sastra. Such an uttama-adhikari who acts as a madhyama-adhikari is not like the general type of madhyama-adhikari, madhyama-bhakta. This madhyuama-adhikari, he is uttama-adhikari, but he has stepped own. He knows sastra and he is very expert in presenting and quoting sastric evidences, because, tasmac chastram pramanam te karyakarya-vyavasthitau (Bg. 16.24). This is sastra-pramana. What is to be done, karya, and what is not to be done, akarya; how can we decide? Unless he presents sastra-pramana, how can he decide what is to be done and what is not to be done? He is not a general ordinary madhyama-adhikari. <o:p></o:p> Preaching<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: One who has laukika-sraddha has to act under the guidance of one who has sastriy-sraddha? <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, he should have a guru, a bonafide Vaisnava guru. He should do bhajana under such expert guidance. He should not act whimsically. Unless you have guru, how can you preach? Sravana kirtana, preaching means kirtana. Unless one has heard from a bona fide guru, what will he preach? What he has heard, he will say that thing. "I have heard this from authorities, from my guru." Preaching is another name for sravana, another name for hearing. What I've heard I'm repeating. Therefore, only one who has heard, he can preach and do kirtana. Otherwise who can do kirtana? One who has not heard, what will he say, and who will hear all those nasty things? <o:p></o:p> Devotee: Many disciples of Srila Prabhupada were preaching under the orders of Srila Prabhupada and, seeing the miseries of the people, were spreading Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Now many have stopped preaching. <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: One who has life and sees Krsna can never stop preaching. He sees, "Krsna's jiva is suffering." He will preach in spite of all obstacles. When Bhaktivinoda Thakura became very old he had to lift up his eyelids to see. But even at that age he would say "I want to ride on a horse and go out and preach." One whose heart bleeds, who has compassion, he says such a thing. It is a question of compassion. Are you preaching out of compassion? One who is not preaching out of compassion, he may preach for some days, but then he stops. "I lost all my enthusiasm.Oh, why did you lose it? You lost Krsna?" <o:p></o:p> Devotee: There are some that are still trying to preach, can we say they are actually keeping the orders of Srila Prabhupada? <o:p></o:p> Throw the Vedas<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Prabhupada said to keep Krsna. He came to give you Krsna. Following the siddhanta, he said, "Let them somehow be attracted to Krsna." That was his aim. He went to the land of mlecchas and yavanas, the Western countries, and gave Krsna to them. How can they understand? They cannot understand all this sastra now. <o:p></o:p> Why did Buddha Deva, who was an incarnation of Lord Visnu say, "Throw out the Vedas." How can Visnu, who is the source of the Vedas, say like that? He is so compassionate. What were they doing? They were killing animals, sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. His heart became so compassionate, seeing this killing "Hey! Stop this killing!" They replied, "Oh, it is described in the Vedas. Why you are stopping?" So Buddha Deva said, "Throw out the Vedas." Why does he speak like that? Because unless they stop killing they cannot come ot the stage of sattva; goodness. They are in the modes of ignorance and passion. They cannot understand the Vedas. So he did like that. This is not siddhanta. Then all the Buddhists said, "Oh Buddha Deva said we can throw out the Vedas." The result was that they became nastika, atheists. But the Vedas can not be lost. The Vedas are apauruseya they come from the Lord, so they should be established. Therefore the Supreme Lord Narayana gave the order of the very powerful Lord Siva, "You go, Mahadeva. You go and establish the Vedas, but keep Me hidden." Then what did Siva establish? The gauna portion of the Vedas, the secondary portion (karma-kanda jnana-kanda). Sankaracarya came to do this. He thought. “This is the order of my master. I am the order carrier.” <o:p></o:p> ==================================================================================== <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> APPENDIX <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Pure devotees of the Lord recognize each other when they meet in this material world. They know each other because they are eternally related and know each other from Goloka Vrndavan. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur recognized each other. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur recognized so many of his pure devotee disciples, Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaj, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Srila BhaktiPromode Puri Maharaj, Srila Bhakti Kumud Santa Maharaj. Our Srila Prabhupada similarly recognized Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj, who in turn recognized Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj. They are all Lord Caitanya's men, and if we are fortunate we can also recognize them as our gurudevas, vande ham sri-guroh sri yuta-pada-kamalam sri gurun vaisnavams ca sri-rupam sagrajatam saha gna-raghunathanvitam tam sa-jivam sadvaitam savadhutam prijana-sahitam krsna-caitanya-devam sri radha-krsna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri viskanvitams ca.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master and unto the feet of all Vaisnavas. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of Srila Rupa Goswami along with his elder brother Sanatana Goswami, as well as Raghunatha Dasa and Raghunatha Bhatta, Gopala Bhatta, and Srila Jiva Goswami.. I offer my respectful obeisances to Lord Krsna Caitanya and Lord Nityananda aong with Advaita Acarya.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Sri-gurun, plural not singular, unto the feet of all Vaisnavas. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ----Bvml.org Editors<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja’s Visit to Bali December 17<SUP>th</SUP> thru 21<SUP>st</SUP>, 1998<o:p></o:p> by Sridam Sakha dasa <o:p></o:p> First Day, Thursday 17 December 1998 <o:p></o:p> Srila Gurudeva arrived in Bali on 17th December with his Indian brahmacaris and immediate travelling party. Most of us had already arrived two days before. <o:p></o:p> Srila Gurudeva was driven from the airport to the house of Ananta Krsna prabhu and Rangavati didi where he also stayed one year before. His hosts had adorned their house very beautifully in traditional style to welcome Srila Gurudeva. Various exotic flowers had been strung crisscross between the gateway and front door and many palm leaf decorations had been hung wall to wall, woven ingeniously into a number of different designs. The temple room is the largest room of the house, and it was there that Srila Gurudeva spoke for a short while upon arrival. The temple's simhasana was made from wood and was beautifully carved in an ornate and intricate way. At the front were small wooden sliding doors, the right one of which had a carved relief of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu on it, while the left was decorated with a corresponding Lord Nityananda. <o:p></o:p> Srila Gurudeva spoke praisingly about the beautiful culture of Bali and the many similarities between Bali and India, saying that he was reminded of the villages of Bengal and Orissa. He also remarked on the similarities of cultures too, particularly the beautiful art and architecture. He then expressed his appreciation at being able to stay in a place where Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja had sojourned in the past, on at least five occasions. <o:p></o:p> "The reverent and honorable Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja used to come and stay here also. You have kept a room for him here. You were so lucky to serve him. He was so bold to speak true siddhanta, too bold. That is why in a very few days he became so popular and the leaders became very fearful 'We'll lose all our disciples to Gour Govinda Maharaja' and that is why they wanted to ban him from ISKCON. And that is why he left this world. He thought that it would be better to leave than to be banned. He was not a person to be banned. He was following in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami preaching raga-marga, not only vaidhi, and I also want to be bold like him. The teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura may seem like vaidhi-bhakti, but they are not. If you hear his teachings very patiently then raganuga will gradually come, some greed. But if not then you are bogus, you should go to another sampradaya like the Sri-sampradaya of Ramanuja or the Rudra-sampradaya of Sri Visnusvami. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not come to give only vaidhi. He came to give the seed of krsna-seva-barsana in the hearts of devotees, this was His main objective, and that of Srila Rupa Gosvami and his followers. <o:p></o:p> "We have not come to make any problem, to make money, to make disciples or take them from others. We've come to help as Lord Nityananda and Haridasa Thakura did even though they were abused. But no harm. We have not come for any rivalry. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja came to preach the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and so have we, to touch the hearts of devotees and help them if they need it. But I know they do, surely. After Srila Svami Maharaja and Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja left, their disciples and followers were like a paddy (rice) field, starting to dry. So much rain was coming but it was not touching that field. And what is this water that is needed? The hari-katha from a pure devotee of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who has not come for self gain, but only to give what the Lord came to give. That water is hari-katha. So we want to give it to devotees, so that they should again become inspired. I want their creepers of bhakti to go up so that many sweet fruits should grow and that they will be able to taste them." <o:p></o:p> Srila Gurudeva then talked to Ananta prabhu about what the daily program should be during his stay in Bali. Ananta prabhu told Srila Gurudeva that he had invited many local spiritual leaders to come and hear Srila Gurudeva's classes. Srila Gurudeva asked Ananta prabhu how progress on the temple building project was going, to which Ananta prabhu said that it was 75% finished. <o:p></o:p> "Vande ham sru-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaisnavams ca!" sri gurun!!! I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master and unto the feet of all Vaisnavas. All glories to Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja! Satyam eva jayate (Bg. 10.4-5): truthfulness. Many of Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja's articles are found on my website. http://bvml.org/SGGM/index.htm It is Murali Krsna Swami who is trying be an advocate of institutional loyalty. SGGM's remarks shouldn't be taken out of context.

From l965-1977 that was certainly true. After His Divine Grace entered maha samadhi, then everything changed gradually. The same phenomenon took place in the SBSST's original Gaudiya Mission. You can read Cc. Adi lila Ch. 12 Txt8-12 for His Divine Grace's insight into that matter, and just replace GM with ISKCON and leading secretaries with gbc. the purports still work. Two groups of asaras, the irm on one side and gbc on the other. Calling Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja "one old sannyasi" is offensive. Would you dare describe Srila Prabhupada as "an old bengali?" I think not. We certainly don't advocate leaving the KC Movement, but going to where it actually manifests. The KC Movement manifests in the hearts of pure Vaisnavas and their sincere followers. He was still on the planet then. Have you not read what he wrote in his Nectar of Devotion?: "“There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotionalservice is rapid.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura was the first gaudiya acarya to do this when he established his Gaudiya Mission, under the guidance of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Srila Prabhupada co founded the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti, many years before he left India to form ISKCON . All the preaching missions established by SBSST's disciple are actually different branches of the GM,or the Caitanya tree. The Krishna consciousness Movement or ISKCON, is wherever there are devotees conscious of Radha-Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu So actually the followers of Srila Prabhupada are really more interested in following what His Divine Grace taught, than staying attached to any external institution that makes sadhu-sanga illegal., makes a mockery of guru-tattva, jiva tattva, and embraces Vaisnava Aparadha as an institutional policy. If one is a member of the Krishna consciusness movement then he will contact a bona fide spiritual master, not a rubber stamped so called acarya who may or may not falll down, and he will get sadhu sanga from genuine sadhus, wherever they happen to manifest. Vote with your feet.

There is not much point in discussing guru tattva, suddha bhakti, or sadhu-sanga with anyone who so firmly believes that Srila Prabhupada "institutionalized" Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I suggest you read: The Mental Prison Of The Institution Editorial (VNN) - by Atulananda das http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9809/ET19-2250.html to broaden your view of what ISKCON means, otherwise not. But actually if you cannot see for forest for the trees there is nothing anyone can do to force your eyes open. Srila Bhkati Raksak Sridhar Maharaja has given nice insight into what KC means. Srila Prabhupada thought highly of his association and showed by his example to embrace such sadhu sanga. You can read their conversation of March l977 here: http://www.guardian-of-devotion.de/articles/meeting1977.htm excerpted from Sri Guru and His Grace: God Consciousness vs. Society Consciousness Responding to the necessity of the times Srila Sridhara Maharaja lucidly explains the absolute societal conception of Krsna consciousness: Devotee: Within a religious mission, sectarian policies may appear to bar the path of progress and pragmatic concerns take precedence over spiritual ideals. Should one risk leaving the formal institution or should he try to remain within and work out the problems? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Progress means elimination and new acceptance. So, when there is a clash between the relative and the absolute standpoint, the relative must be left aside, and the absolute accepted. The example is given of a socialist in a country of capitalists. When there is a clash, one will not express their creed for the sake of peace. But to maintain the purity of their faith for the socialists they will try to leave and join the socialists. Higher Ideal So, the absolute and the relative are two different classes of interest. And we find more importance in the absolute interest. We must be sincere to our own creed. The form is necessary to help me in a general way to maintain my present position. At the same time, my conception of the higher ideal will always goad me to advance, to go forward, and wherever I do, I must follow the greater model, the greater ideal. Spiritual life is progressive, not stagnant. We are in the stage of sadhana, and we want to go ahead, not backwards. The formal position will help me to maintain my present status, and my extraordinary affinity for the ideal will goad me towards the front. The search for Sri Krsna is dynamic and living, so adjustment and readjustment is always going on. And we should also change our present position accordingly, so that we may not have to sacrifice the high ideal for which we have come. Einstein had to leave Germany and go to America for his high ideal of life. And so many similar instances may be found in the world. The ideal is all in all. The highest ideal in a man is his highest jewel. Our most precious gem is our ideal. Many things are recommended in the scriptures, but they are meant to promote us towards the truth in an indirect way (sva-dharme nidhanam sreya ). [bg 3.35] It is recommended at a certain stage that for the sake of our close friends, we should give up our ideal. But in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna's final instruction is sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: "If it is necessary to maintain the highest ideal, you must give up your friends. Surrender to me. I am the real purport of the scriptures." The highest kind of idealists give up their country, their family, their friends, and everything else, but they can't give up their ideal. In the Bhagavad-gita, [3.35] Krsna says, "It is better to die while performing one's duty that to try to do another's duty." That is one stage of understanding: the relative consideration. The absolute consideration is also given in the Bhagavad-gita: sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [bg. 18.66]. Krsna says, "Give up everything. Come to Me directly." This is the revolutionary way. This is absolute. And this is relative: "Stick to your own clan. Don't leave them." That is the national conception. There is nation consciousness and God consciousness; society consciousness and God consciousness. God consciousness is absolute. If society consciousness hinders the development of God consciousness, it should be left behind. This is confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.5.18): <CENTER>gurur na sa syat sva jano na sa syat pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat daivam na tat syan na patis ca sa syan na mocayed yah samupeta mrtyum </CENTER> Even a spiritual master, relative, parent, husband, or demigod who cannot save us from repeated birth and death should be abandoned at once." What to speak of ordinary things, even the guru, may have to be abandoned. One may even have to give up one's own spiritual guide, as in the case of Bali Maharaja, or one's relatives, as in the case of Vibhisana. In the case of Prahlada, his father had to be given up, and in the case of Bharata Maharaja, it was his mother. In the case of Khatvanga Maharaja, he left the demigods, and in the case of the yajna patnis, (the wives of the brahmanas ) they left their husbands in the endeavor to reach the Absolute Personality. We need society only to help us. If our affinity to the society keeps us down, then that should be given up, and we must march on. There is the absolute consideration and the relative consideration. When they come into clash, the relative must be given up, and the absolute should be accepted. If my inner voice, my spiritual conscience decides that this sort of company cannot really help me, then I will be under painful necessity to give them up, and to run towards my destination, wherever my spiritual conscience guides me. Any other course will be hypocrisy, and it will check my real progress. If we are sincere in our attempt, then no one in the world can check us or deceive us; we can only deceive ourselves (na hi kalyana-krt kascid durgatim tata gacchati ) [bg. 6.40]. We must be true to our own selves, and true to the Supreme Lord. We must be sincere. Disappearance of the Guru Devotee: After the disappearance of the spiritual master, how should the disciples continue the mission? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: You must not neglect your conscience. Otherwise you have no faith in your own cause. There may be disturbances but we should not leave the preaching of Mahaprabhu, despite all differences. Disturbances must come, and we must undergo them. Still, we must remain sincere; we must face the difficulty in a proper way. It has come to train us to go in the right direction. The Fire has Come to Test Us What we have received from our spiritual master we understood only in a rough estimation. Now, things have come in such a way that we have to scrutinize ourselves in every position. We have to analyze ourselves. Atma-niksepa, self-analysis has begun. We are under trial. What we have received from our spiritual master, in what way have we received it? Properly, or only showingly? The time has come to purify us, to test whether we are real students, real disciples, or his disciples only in face and confession. What is the position of a real disciple? If we live in a society, what is the depth of our creed? In what attitude have we accepted his teachings? How deep-rooted is it within us? The fire has come to test whether we can stand. Is our acceptance real? Or is it a sham, an imitation? This fire will prove that. So, this is the real field of sadhana, or practice. Our practice, our advancement needs these difficulties. Otherwise, we may not know what is progress, and we will become hypocrites, and give the adulterated thing to others. So, to purify ourselves, it is necessary that so many disturbances come. And God has no error. He commands the environment. It is not our responsibility. The responsibility of the environment does not rest upon us. If I am sincere, then I have to adjust myself with this environment and put my faith before Him. "Everyone may leave me, but I shall stand alone!" With this attitude we must march on, whatever the circumstances may be. Then the recognition may come in my favor, that "Yes, under such trying circumstances he is still there." Our superiors will be pleased with us. The relative and absolute considerations are always coming in clash. The absolute should be accepted and the relative sacrificed. Still the relative is necessary. After graduation from primary school another teacher is accepted for higher education, but that does not mean that the primary teacher is neglected or insulted. For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point. We have left all social concerns and so many other shackles. For what? For the Absolute Truth. And wherever I shall find that, I must bow down my head. And if a great soul shows us, "This is the path to where you will find your thirst quenched. The line is in this zigzag way," we must accept that for our own interest. We are worshipers not of this form, but of substance. Wherever I feel the presence of my Lord in an intense form, I must be attracted to that side. Krsna says, sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. Wherever we shall find Him, we must run in that direction. My interest is with Him. Not that we can challenge, "Why did Krsna appear here, and why is He appearing there?" If a man in a boat is passing through the current and finds himself in danger, then from whatever side help may come, he must run to that side. If we are worshipers of Siva, when we understand the special superiority of Narayana, should we stick to Siva? And then Krsna? In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta the story is told of how Gopa-kumara, by chanting his Gopala mantra, gradually leaves one stage and progresses to the next. There, the gradation of devotion is traced from the karma-kanda brahmana, to a devotee king, then to Indra, then to Brahma, then to Siva, from him to Prahlada, then to Hanuman, then the Pandavas, then to the Yadavas, to Uddhava, and finally the gopis. In this zigzag way he is passing. In the sincerity of his quest, his thirst is not being quenched until he goes to Vrndavana. So, the Brhad-bhagavatamrta has shown us the line of guru parampara, or the real line of our quest, of our search. Sincere Hankering for the Truth is Our Guide If we are sincerely searching after real truth, then wherever we go may be a contribution to our experience for further preaching in the future. We may cross many guru paramparas before ultimately attaining the Vraja-lila of Krsna, as given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sometimes the father may not be our guardian. Our uncle may be our guide, and not the father. It is possible. The line of interest is to be considered the most important. So, our line is the siksa guru parampara. I am thankful to those that are helping my spiritual understanding not only in a formal way, but in the real sense. Whoever is untying the knots of our entanglement in this material world, giving us light, and quenching our thirst for inner understanding and satisfaction is our guru. In this way, we live on the contribution of all these spiritual masters. They are all our siksa gurus. All the Vaisnavas are more or less our instructing spiritual masters. And our own sincere hankering for the truth will be our guide. That is guru parampara. So the real disciplic line provides practical knowledge in support of the divine love which is coming down. We must bow our heads wherever we find support of that. We should not become formalists, but substantialists; not fashionists, not imitationists, but realistic thinkers. That should always be our temperament. And what sort of saintly persons shall we try to mix with earnestly? In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.91) Rupa Goswami has said, sajati-yasye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare: Those who are in our line, who have the same high spiritual aspirations as we do, and who hold a superior position. To associate with such saintly persons will help us the most to progress towards the ultimate goal. There may be some obstacles, but if at heart we are sincere, the environment cannot deceive us, because God's inner help is there, cooperating with our sincere, inner need (na hi kalyana krt kascit durgatim tata gacchati) [bg. 6.40]. What we want from our innermost hearts cannot but come true, because Krsna knows everything. There may be some obstacles, but by Krsna's help, they shall all be eliminated and our innermost aspiration will be crowned with success. The formal societal position helps one to maintain their present status while our affinity for the high ideal will always push us to advance in Krsna consciousness. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.18 it is stated that whatever hinders our advancement must be left behind, even society consciousness. The society is there to help us, not hinder us. Our process is Krsna consciousness not society consciousness.

With all respects but none for his realizations about nama tattva, guru tattva , jiva tattva and sadhu sanga are anything but respect. To imply that SGGM said anything essentially different from what we heard from His Divine Grace and what is written in his books then you must have a very selective memory of what His Divine Grace actually wrote and spoke on the same topics. I've read assertions that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was preaching something "different." Such assertions cannot really be proven and are unsubstantial. They miss the essence of what His Divine Grace gave and miss the fact that SGGM was simply trying to help his godbrothers and disciples better understand Srila Prabhupada's vanih. Try reading: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> A Society Without Envy http://bvml.org/SGGM/aswe.htm the only problem with your interpretation of this remark to Paramahamsa is that because Srila Prabhupada said "You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita", you then conclude that reading the the spiritual master's commentary is identical to "associating" with him. To some extent, but it is really amazing how you can read so much into His Divine Grace's statement. Confusion about the qualitative oneness of vanih and vapuh seem to only be paralleled by misunderstanding of guru-tattva. Krsna is certainly non different from His name, fame form and pastimes. Do we then conclude that the spiritual master is also non different from his name, fame, form and nara lila? I don't believe that is our siddhanta. Srila Prabupada made another statement about his books to Madhudvisa. That conversation instructs us to take instructions from one "who knows the subject matter" : Conversation with Srila Prabhupada May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.” Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1 Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13 Are you saying that reading the books of any acarya is the identical experience of having his vapuh association and you find absolutely no difference in the experience of reading His Divine Grace's books, and what it was like to be in his physical presence and hear him directly? Then you are a highly advanced soul and have a very high adhikara and genuine deep realization. Then you should also have the same experience of Living Association of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Rupa Gosvami when you read their books ,or you are just kidding yourself. Hearing is more than in one ear hole and out the other. Genuine hearing means to take the words in our heart and live them and realize them. How much do we actually understand and realize the abc of Bg., that we are not the body,but are eternal servants of the Supreme Lord? When we open the books left by His Divine Grace anyone who sincerely reads the language of the book can sense His Divine Grace's ecstatic presence to some extent. I would suggest such realization is in direct proportion to our actual surrender to and love for His Divine Grace. No one can dispute such realization. However we are hard pressed to prove the point . Many of us are ready, willing and able to admit we lose nothing by taking assistance from Vaisnavas senior to ourselves to better appreciate the depth of His Divine Grace's written and spoken legacy. SGGM observed Gour Govind Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through their books. This is not a new thing. This is our vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Can you see Jiva Goswami? You may say, “Oh I have read their books; I have their asociation.” That won’t help you. You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, “We need only to read books. There is no need of associating with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu? No, there is no sadhu at all.” Your motto is, “Seeing is believing.” You cannot see, so you cannot believe. Because you are a conditioned soul, your vision is defective. You cannot see a sadhu. Krishna is there, can you see Him? No, you cannot, because you are not endowed with proper vision. First develop the proper vision, and then you can see Krishna. Then you can see how a sadhu is there. It is not a fact that sadhus are not present. How is everything going on? How does the sun rise, the wind blow, and Indra give rain? All these things are going on. No sadhu? No Krishna? It’s nonsense, foolishness. We are so proud and puffed up. We are identifying ourself as the body, mind and false ego. We think we are very great. So we say, “Oh, there is no sadhu.” We are in the category of identification with the body and mind.We have not come to the beginning of the stage of purity. No!<o:p></o:p> If Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj's evaluation of our capacity to understand shastra doesn't include you, and you can appreciate and realize the depth of His Divine Grace's written word on your own with no anugatya, then more power to you. Then if I pose some questions to you about the meaning of Rathayatra or the verses and purports in Nectar of Instruction you will be able to fully explain them to me. We can easily compare your critique on any one verse and purport to the lectures and articles on the same topics from other Vaisnavas and compare. I would also propose that by reading "Sri Chaitanya: His Life & Associates" by Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaj anyone can get a better appreciation of Srila Prabhupada's translation and commentary of the Cc. It is not clear what you mean by the "LIVING PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada in his books and teachings." If you believe that the books and teachings are identical to the acaryas' nara lila then that is a misconception. What do you actually mean? . The books cannot initiate disciples? The books do not necessarily explain themselves if you are confused be something you read in them? The books will not necessarily resolve apparant contradictions that conditioned souls observe in shastra?The books won't grab your ear and twist it to chastise you? It is clear that His Divine Grace clearly wrote that the spiritual master is non different from his instructions. Why misunderstand that remark to believe that the books are identical to the vapuh nara lila of the acarya? Such fanatacism doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's just soft rtvk manifesto that asserts, as the iskcon gbc does, that there is no need for any living siksa guru, because His Divine Grace wrote books and recorded lectures and we have his vanih. Your definition: Association of a sadhu ( sadhu-sanga)=reading the book written by that sadhu sounds like it comes from the same rtvk dictionary that re-defined henceforward. No one considers Srila Prabhupada "wrong." Here is a direct example from Audarya lila of how Srila Sridhar Maharaja's anugatya offers clarity and further explanation of His Divine Grace's remark

We have heard such assertions before. There are many already written articles that more than adequately answer such useless observations. Uttarapaksa (Refutations) Archive http://bvml.org/ref/index.html Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja's deep appreciation and service attitude toward Srila Prabhupada are apparant to anyone with a clear enough head and unblocked ears to hear. None so blind as will not see and none so deaf as will not hear, and it is impossible to wake a man pretending to sleep. It is certainly much safer to accept His Divine Grace's evaluation of Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja than yours: from Srila Prabhupada’s letter to Srila Narayana Maharaja. (Return address c/o Gopal Agarwal from Butler, Penn.) Sept. 28, 1966: “I received your letter dated September 20, 1966, on time. Our relationship is certainly based on spontaneous love. That is why there is no chance of us forgetting one another. By the mercy of guru and Gauranga, may everything be auspicious for you. This is my constant prayer. From the first time I saw you I have been your constant well-wisher. At his first sight of me, Srila Prabhupada also saw me with such love. It was in my very first darshan of Srila Prabhupada that I learned how to love. It is his boundless mercy that he has engaged an unworthy person like me in fulfilling some of his desires. It is his causeless mercy to engage me in preaching the message of Sri Rupa and Sri Raghunatha.”] or examine Srila Narayana Maharaja's remarks directly, –“Then he told me, ‘I want you to help take care of my disciples. I want them to be good and qualified devotees. If they come to you, please care for them.” Many of Srila Swami Maharaja’s disciples were nearby so he softly whispered in Bengali, “When I went to the West, I caught so many monkeys in my net. Really, they are very expert in quarrelling amongst themselves. They are still very young and untrained. So I request you that after my departure you will help them in every respect.” Considering the implications of this order from my siksa-guru, I hesitated. Then he grasped both of my hands in his own, looked deeply into my eyes and asked me to promise to help. Therefore I agreed, saying, ‘I promise that according to my ability and my bhaktisiddhanta-tattva (understanding of the conclusive statements of bhakti) I will always be ready to help them as you request.’” (from Srila Narayana Maharaja’s book, “My Siksa-guru and Priya-bandu http://bvml.org/SBNM/msgapb.htm If this thread is going to degrade into a name called aparadha fest then I would ask Jndas to close it down. Unfortunately when philosophical discussions that touch on guru-tattva, and suddha bhakti run long enough someone always sees fit to pollute the discussion with aparadha and contention. "In the Prti-sandarbha, Srila Jiva Gosvämi . . . says there are three types of discussions—väda, jalpa, and vitandä. In a väda discussion the motive of all concerned is to find out the truth. This is the ideal kind of discussion. It is for persons who are sober and impartial about the outcome; they simply want to know what is the truth of the matter. They are in the mode of goodness. Jalpa is a discussion wherein one is not interested in what is said by others, whether it has some truth or all of the truth, because one simply wants to be heard. Any other view or contribution is of no interest. This is the way for a person in the mode of passion. A vitandä discussion is in the mode of ignorance. In this version the truth is of no value. One simply wants to win at all costs." Introduction In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall by Kundali das Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Gosvami Maharaja has written: "THE ETYMOLOGICAL development of the word aparadha is radhat arthat aradhanat- apagatah, which means "to be distanced from worship." Offenses committed at the lotus feet of Vaishnavas, the Devotees, distance one from devotional service to the Supreme Lord. But in a higher sense it means to be removed from the service of Sri Radha. All divine service to Krishna is being conducted under her direction. To offend her servitors is to make one unfit for her divine service. The whole aim of Krishna consciousness is radha-dasyam, the divine service of Sri Radha, and offenses at the lotus feet of Vaishnavas make one unfit for such service" The Heart of Krsna (Vaishnava Aparadha & The Path of Spiritual Caution) http://bvml.org/SBPPG/hok-intr.htm

There is never any question of disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada's direct statements, as long as you can corroborate the source and it isn't something from someone's imagination. Puru das said: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>He is not saying ". . . that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Srila Prabhupada said: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>My first concern is that my books shall be published and distributed profusely all over the world. Practically, BOOKS ARE THE BASIS of our movement. Without our books our preaching will have no effect.(to Mandali Badra 20 January, 1972) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I think Puru das is not up to speed with what Srila Prabhupada taught his disciples. Get with the program prabhu!! Thanks for your evaluation. Please permit me to suggest that you are similarly not up to speed on what is actually written in the books. Regardless, we weren't talking about another statement by His Divine Grace from the letter to Mandali Badra from 1972, but the motto "Preaching is the Essence, Books Are the Basis, Utility is the Principle, and Purity is the Force" that Bali Mardan read to His Divine Grace from a Chinese scroll. http://www.vnn.org/world/9802/09-1590/index.html

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 955892" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125></TD><TD class=alt1>Puru das says: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>As a matter of fact Srila Prabhupada NEVER said "that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></B> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Then what do you think he is saying here...? <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>"All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure." - Srila Prabhupada's purport, Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 25.278 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></B> He is saying what he said. No need to speculate as what we "think" he meant by it. "All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure." He is not saying ". . . that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" Interpret what he said as you will. I can see what he did say and what he did not say very clearly. We are not discussing what you think he means by what he wrote, but what he wrote. Thus nothing. That is your subjective conclusion. I can give numerous quotes from the books to prove that, thus "sadhu-sanga is the basis of the KC Movement." I can also give numerous quotes from the books that could lead us to say thus "chanting the hare Krsna maha mantra" is the basis of the KC Movement. I can give many quotes from the books to say thus "the teachings of Lord Caitanya are the basis of the KC Movement." We have to understand Srila Prabhupada's vanih in its totality, not just quote him out of context and to suite our own conceptions. "All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure." Whether everyone will understand them and know how to apply them is another matter. That point is apparant since 1977. This thread is also proof positive that to really appreciate the depth of what is in His Divine Grace's books devotees are advised to study them in the association of and under the anugatya of a sad-guru. (see Cc. Antya 5.131). Without guidance,or siksa from a self realized soul, reading any shastra may not take you to the correct conclusion and you can possibly mis-understand the words of the acarya who wrote any particular translation or commentary. If you reject the principle of sadhu sanga and hearing from the lips of self realized souls and Bg. 4.34 then what have you understood from Srila Prabhupada's books? Not much. Here is another nice verse from the books concerning the importance of vapuh association: TEXT 122 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> sarva-desa-kala-dasaya janera kartavya guru-pase sei bhakti prastavya, srotavya <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> sarva--all; desa--countries; kala--times; dasaya--and in circumstances; janera--of every man; kartavya--the duty; guru-pase--in the care of a spiritual master; sei--that; bhakti--devotional service; prastavya--to be inquired; srotavya--and to be heard. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> " 'It is therefore the duty of every man-in every country, in every circumstance and at all times-to approach the bona fide spiritual master, question him about devotional service and listen to him explain the process. <o:p></o:p> Cc. Madhya lila Ch. 25.122 HDGACBSP Srila Prabhupada wrote in his purport to SB 1.2.18 ". . . Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life." So it is no surprise contention arises over what is the "best thing" or the "most important thing to do" to become Krsna conscious. Seems to me we should embrace all 64 angas of bhakti that Srila Rupa Gosvami gave us in his book Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and try to execute as many of the nine devotional processes, as outlined by Pradhlada Maharaja in the 7th Canto of SB and take whatever help we can find in learning how to execute those principles. the verse an purport are long but worth examination: sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam <o:p></o:p> iti pumsarpita visnau bhaktis cen nava-laksana kriyeta bhagavaty addha tan manye 'dhitam uttamam <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> sri-prahradah uvaca--Prahlada Maharaja said; sravanam--hearing; kirtanam--chanting; visnoh--of Lord Visnu (not anyone else); smaranam--remembering; pada-sevanam--serving the feet; arcanam--offering worship (with sodasopacara, the sixteen kinds of paraphernalia); vandanam--offering prayers; dasyam--becoming the servant; sakhyam--becoming the best friend; atma-nivedanam--surrendering everything, whatever one has; iti--thus; pumsa arpita--offered by the devotee; visnau--unto Lord Visnu (not to anyone else); bhaktih--devotional service; cet--if; nava-laksana--possessing nine different processes; kriyeta--one should perform; bhagavati--unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; addha--directly or completely; tat--that; manye--I consider; adhitam--learning; uttamam--topmost. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> Prahlada Maharaja said: Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Visnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words)--these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Krsna through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> When Prahlada Maharaja was asked by his father to say something from whatever he had learned, he considered that what he had learned from his spiritual master was the best of all teachings whereas what he had learned about diplomacy from his material teachers, Sanda and Amarka, was useless. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (Bhag. 11.2.42). This is the symptom of pure devotional service. A pure devotee is interested only in devotional service, not in material affairs. To execute devotional service, one should always engage in hearing and chanting about Krsna, or Lord Visnu. The process of temple worship is called arcana. How to perform arcana will be explained herein. One should have complete faith in the words of Krsna, who says that He is the great well-wishing friend of everyone (suhrdam sarva-bhutanam). A devotee considers Krsna the only friend. This is called sakhyam. Pumsarpita visnau. The word pumsa means "by all living entities." There are no distinctions permitting only a man or only a brahmana to offer devotional service to the Lord. Everyone can do so. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (9.32), striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim: although women, vaisyas and sudras are considered less intelligent, they also can become devotees and return home, back to Godhead. After performing sacrifices, sometimes a person engaged in fruitive activity customarily offers the results to Visnu. But here it is said, bhagavaty addha: one must directly offer everything to Visnu. This is called sannyasa (not merely nyasa). A tridandi-sannyasi carries three dandas, signifying kaya-mano-vakya--body, mind and words. All of these should be offered to Visnu, and then one can begin devotional service. Fruitive workers first perform some pious activities and then formally or officially offer the results to Visnu. The real devotee, however, first offers his surrender to Krsna with his body, mind and words and then uses his body, mind and words for the service of Krsna as Krsna desires. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura gives the following explanation in his Tathya. The word sravana refers to giving aural reception to the holy name and descriptions of the Lord's form, qualities, entourage and pastimes as explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and similar authorized scriptures. After aurally receiving such messages, one should memorize these vibrations and repeat them (kirtanam). Smaranam means trying to understand more and more about the Supreme Lord, and pada-sevanam means engaging oneself in serving the lotus feet of the Lord according to the time and circumstances. Arcanam means worshiping Lord Visnu as one does in the temple, and vandanam means offering respectful obeisances. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Vandanam means namaskuru--offering obeisances or offering prayers. Thinking oneself to be nitya-krsna-dasa, everlastingly a servant of Krsna, is called dasyam, and sakhyam means being a well-wisher of Krsna. Krsna wants everyone to surrender unto Him because everyone is constitutionally His servant. Therefore, as a sincere friend of Krsna, one should preach this philosophy, requesting everyone to surrender unto Krsna. Atma-nivedanam means offering Krsna everything, including one's body, mind, intelligence and whatever one may possess. One's sincere endeavor to perform these nine processes of devotional service is technically called bhakti. The word addha means "directly" One should not be like the karmis, who perform pious activities and then formally offer the results to Krsna. That is karma-kanda. One should not aspire for the results of his pious activities, but should dedicate oneself fully and then act piously. In other words, one should act for the satisfaction of Lord Visnu, not for the satisfaction of his own senses. That is the meaning of the word addha, "directly." <o:p></o:p> anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam anukulyena krsnanu- silanam bhaktir uttama <o:p></o:p> "One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Krsna favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service." One should simply satisfy Krsna, without being influenced by fruitive knowledge or fruitive activity. The Gopala-tapani Upanisad says that the word bhakti means engagement in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, not of anyone else. This Upanisad describes that bhakti is the offering of devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. To perform devotional service, one should be relieved of the bodily conception of life and aspirations to be happy through elevation to the higher planetary systems. In other words, work performed simply for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, without any desire for material benefits, is called bhakti. Bhakti is also called niskarma, or freedom from the results of fruitive activity. Bhakti and niskarma are on the same platform, although devotional service and fruitive activity appear almost the same. The nine different processes enunciated by Prahlada Maharaja, who learned them from Narada Muni, may not all be required for the execution of devotional service; if a devotee performs only one of these nine without deviation, he can attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sometimes it is found that when one performs one of the processes, other processes are mixed with it. That is not improper for a devotee. When a devotee executes any one of the nine processes (nava-laksana), this is sufficient; the other eight processes are included. Now let us discuss these nine different processes. (1) Sravanam. Hearing of the holy name of the Lord (sravanam) is the beginning of devotional service. Although any one of the nine processes is sufficient, in chronological order the hearing of the holy name of the Lord is the beginning. Indeed, it is essential. As enunciated by Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, ceto-darpana-marjanam: by chanting the holy name of the Lord, one is cleansed of the material conception of life, which is due to the dirty modes of material nature. When the dirt is cleansed from the core of one's heart, one can realize the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead--isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah. Thus by hearing the holy name of the Lord, one comes to the platform of understanding the personal form of the Lord. After realizing the Lord's form, one can realize the transcendental qualities of the Lord, and when one can understand His transcendental qualities one can understand the Lord's associates. In this way a devotee advances further and further toward complete understanding of the Lord as he awakens in realization of the Lord's holy name, transcendental form and qualities, His paraphernalia, and everything pertaining to Him. Therefore the chronological process is sravanam kirtanam visnoh. This same process of chronological understanding holds true in chanting and remembering. When the chanting of the holy name, form, qualities and paraphernalia is heard from the mouth of a pure devotee, his hearing and chanting are very pleasing. Srila Sanatana Gosvami has forbidden us to hear the chanting of an artificial devotee or nondevotee. Hearing from the text of Srimad-Bhagavatam is considered the most important process of hearing. Srimad-Bhagavatam is full of transcendental chanting of the holy name, and therefore the chanting and hearing of Srimad-Bhagavatam are transcendentally full of mellows. The transcendental holy name of the Lord may be heard and chanted accordingly to the attraction of the devotee. One may chant the holy name of Lord Krsna, or one may chant the holy name of Lord Rama or Nrsimhadeva (ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan). The Lord has innumerable forms and names, and devotees may meditate upon a particular form and chant the holy name according to his attraction. The best course is to hear of the holy name, form and so on from a pure devotee of the same standard as oneself. In other words, one who is attached to Krsna should chant and hear from other pure devotees who are also attached to Lord Krsna. The same principle applies for devotees attracted by Lord Rama, Lord Nrsimha and other forms of the Lord. Because Krsna is the ultimate form of the Lord (krsnas tu bhagavan svayam), it is best to hear about Lord Krsna's name, form and pastimes from a realized devotee who is particularly attracted by the form of Lord Krsna. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, great devotees like Sukadeva Gosvami have specifically described Lord Krsna's holy name, form and qualities. Unless one hears about the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord, one cannot clearly understand the other processes of devotional service. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that one chant the holy name of Krsna. param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. If one is fortunate enough to hear from the mouth of realized devotees, he is very easily successful on the path of devotional service. Therefore hearing of the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord is essential. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.5.11) there is this verse: <o:p></o:p> tad-vag-visargo janatagha-viplavo yasmin prati-slokam abaddhavaty api namany anantasya yaso-'nkitani yat srnvanti gayanti grnanti sadhavah <o:p></o:p> "Verses describing the name, form and qualities of Anantadeva, the unlimited Supreme Lord, are able to vanquish all the sinful reactions of the entire world. Therefore even if such verses are improperly composed, devotees hear them, describe them and accept them as bona fide and authorized." In this connection, Sridhara Svami has remarked that a pure devotee takes advantage of another pure devotee by trying to hear from him about the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord. If there is no such opportunity, he alone chants and hears the Lord's holy name. (2) Kirtanam. The hearing of the holy name has been described above. Now let us try to understand the chanting of the holy name, which is the second item in the consecutive order. It is recommended that such chanting be performed very loudly. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, Narada Muni says that without shame he began traveling all over the world, chanting the holy name of the Lord. Similarly, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised: <o:p></o:p> trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih <o:p></o:p> A devotee can very peacefully chant the holy name of the Lord by behaving more humbly than the grass, being tolerant like a tree and offering respects to everyone, without expecting honor from anyone else. Such qualifications make it easier to chant the holy name of the Lord. The process of transcendental chanting can be easily performed by anyone. Even if one is physically unfit, classified lower than others, devoid of material qualifications or not at all elevated in terms of pious activities, the chanting of the holy name is beneficial. An aristocratic birth, an advanced education, beautiful bodily features, wealth and similar results of pious activities are all unnecessary for advancement in spiritual life, for one can very easily advance simply by chanting the holy name. It is understood from the authoritative source of Vedic literature that especially in this age, Kali-yuga, people are generally short-living, extremely bad in their habits, and inclined to accept methods of devotional service that are not bona fide. Moreover, they are always disturbed by material conditions, and they are mostly unfortunate. Under the circumstances, the performance of other processes, such as yajna, dana, tapah and kriya--sacrifices, charity and so on--are not at all possible. Therefore it is recommended: <o:p></o:p> harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha <o:p></o:p> "In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way." Simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord, one advances perfectly in spiritual life. This is the best process for success in life. In other ages, the chanting of the holy name is equally powerful, but especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is most powerful. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet: simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna, one is liberated and returns home, back to Godhead. Therefore, even if one is able to perform other processes of devotional service, one must adopt the chanting of the holy name as the principal method of advancing in spiritual life. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah: those who are very sharp in their intelligence should adopt this process of chanting the holy names of the Lord. One should not, however, manufacture different types of chanting. One should adhere seriously to the chanting of the holy name as recommended in the scriptures: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. While chanting the holy name of the Lord, one should be careful to avoid ten offenses. From Sanat-kumara it is understood that even if a person is a severe offender in many ways, he is freed from offensive life if he takes shelter of the Lord's holy name. Indeed, even if a human being is no better than a two-legged animal, he will be liberated if he takes shelter of the holy name of the Lord. One should therefore be very careful not to commit offenses at the lotus feet of the Lord's holy name. The offenses are described as follows: (a) to blaspheme a devotee, especially a devotee engaged in broadcasting the glories of the holy name, (b) to consider the name of Lord Siva or any other demigod to be equally as powerful as the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (no one is equal to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nor is anyone superior to Him), © to disobey the instructions of the spiritual master, (d) to blaspheme the Vedic literatures and literatures compiled in pursuance of the Vedic literatures, (e) to comment that the glories of the holy name of the Lord are exaggerated, (f) to interpret the holy name in a deviant way, (g) to commit sinful activities on the strength of chanting the holy name, (h) to compare the chanting of the holy name to pious activities, (i) to instruct the glories of the holy name to a person who has no understanding of the chanting of the holy name, (j) not to awaken in transcendental attachment for the chanting of the holy name, even after hearing all these scriptural injunctions. There is no way to atone for any of these offenses. It is therefore recommended that an offender at the feet of the holy name continue to chant the holy name twenty-four hours a day. Constant chanting of the holy name will make one free of offenses, and then he will gradually be elevated to the transcendental platform on which he can chant the pure holy name and thus become a lover of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is recommended that even if one commits offenses, one should continue chanting the holy name. In other words, the chanting of the holy name makes one offenseless. In the book Nama-kaumudi it is recommended that if one is an offender at the lotus feet of a Vaisnava, he should submit to that Vaisnava and be excused; similarly, if one is an offender in chanting the holy name, he should submit to the holy name and thus be freed from his offenses. In this connection there is the following statement, spoken by Daksa to Lord Siva: "I did not know the glories of your personality, and therefore I committed an offense at your lotus feet in the open assembly. You are so kind, however, that you did not accept my offense. Instead, when I was falling down because of accusing you, you saved me by your merciful glance. You are most great. Kindly excuse me and be satisfied with your own exalted qualities." One should be very humble and meek to offer one's desires and chant prayers composed in glorification of the holy name, such as ayi mukta-kulair upasya manam and nivrtta-tarsair upagiyamanad. One should chant such prayers to become free from offenses at the lotus feet of the holy name. (3) Smaranam. After one regularly performs the processes of hearing and chanting and after the core of one's heart is cleansed, smaranam, remembering, is recommended. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.1.11) Sukadeva Gosvami tells King Pariksit: <o:p></o:p> etan nirvidyamananam icchatam akuto-bhayam yoginam nrpa nirnitam harer namanukirtanam <o:p></o:p> "O King, for great yogis who have completely renounced all material connections, for those who desire all material enjoyment and for those who are self-satisfied by dint of transcendental knowledge, constant chanting of the holy name of the Lord is recommended." According to different relationships with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are varieties of namanukirtanam, chanting of the holy name, and thus according to different relationships and mellows there are five kinds of remembering. These are as follows: (a) conducting research into the worship of a particular form of the Lord, (b) concentrating the mind on one subject and withdrawing the mind's activities of thinking, feeling and willing from all other subjects, © concentrating upon a particular form of the Lord (this is called meditation), (d) concentrating one's mind continuously on the form of the Lord (this is called dhruvanusmrti, or perfect meditation), and (e) awakening a likening for concentration upon a particular form (this is called samadhi, or trance). Mental concentration upon particular pastimes of the Lord in particular circumstances is also called remembrance. Therefore samadhi, trance, can be possible in five different ways in terms of one's relationship. Specifically, the trance of devotees on the stage of neutrality is called mental concentration. (4) pada-sevanam. According to one's taste and strength, hearing, chanting and remembrance may be followed by pada-sevanam. One obtains the perfection of remembering when one constantly thinks of the lotus feet of the Lord. Being intensely attached to thinking of the Lord's lotus feet is called pada-sevanam. When one is particularly adherent to the process of pada-sevanam, this process gradually includes other processes, such as seeing the form of the Lord, touching the form of the Lord, circumambulating the form or temple of the Lord, visiting such places as Jagannatha Puri, Dvaraka and Mathura to see the Lord's form, and bathing in the Ganges or Yamuna. Bathing in the Ganges and serving a pure Vaisnava are also known as tadiya-upasanam. This is also pada-sevanam. The word tadiya means "in relationship with the Lord." Service to the Vaisnava, Tulasi, Ganges and Yamuna are included in pada-sevanam. All these processes of pada-sevanam help one advance in spiritual life very quickly. (5) Arcanam. After pada-sevanam comes the process of arcanam, worship of the Deity. If one is interested in the process of arcanam, one must positively take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and learn the process from him. There are many books for arcana, especially Narada-pancaratra. In this age, the pancaratra system is particularly recommended for arcana, Deity worship. There are two systems of arcana--the bhagavata system and pancaratriki system. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is no recommendation of pancaratriki worship because in this Kali-yuga, even without Deity worship, everything can be perfectly performed simply through hearing, chanting, remembering and worship of the lotus feet of the Lord. Rupa Gosvami states: <o:p></o:p> sri-visnoh sravane pariksid abhavad vaiyasakih kirtane prahladah smarane tad-anghri-bhajane laksmih prthuh pujane akruras tv abhivandane kapi-patir dasye 'tha sakhye 'rjunah sarvasvatma-nivedane balir abhut krsnaptir esam param <o:p></o:p> "Pariksit Maharaja attained salvation simply by hearing, and Sukadeva Gosvami attained salvation simply by chanting. Prahlada Maharaja attained salvation by remembering the Lord. The goddess of fortune, Laksmidevi, attained perfection by worshiping the Lord's lotus feet. Prthu Maharaja attained salvation by worshiping the Deity of the Lord. Akrura attained salvation by offering prayers, Hanuman by rendering service, Arjuna by establishing friendship with the Lord, and Bali Maharaja by offering everything to the service of the Lord." All these great devotees served the Lord according to a particular process, but every one of them attained salvation and became eligible to return home, back to Godhead. This is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is therefore recommended that initiated devotees follow the principles of Narada-pancaratra by worshiping the Deity in the temple. Especially for householder devotees who are opulent in material possessions, the path of Deity worship is strongly recommended. An opulent householder devotee who does not engage his hard-earned money in the service of the Lord is called a miser. One should not engage paid brahmanas to worship the Deity. If one does not personally worship the Deity but engages paid servants instead, he is considered lazy, and his worship of the Deity is called artificial. An opulent householder can collect luxurious paraphernalia for Deity worship, and consequently for householder devotees the worship of the Deity is compulsory. In our Krsna consciousness movement there are brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis, but the Deity worship in the temple should be performed especially by the householders. The brahmacaris can go with the sannyasis to preach, and the vanaprasthas should prepare themselves for the next status of renounced life, sannyasa. Grhastha devotees, however, are generally engaged in material activities, and therefore if they do not take to Deity worship, their falling down is positively assured. Deity worship means following the rules and regulations precisely. That will keep one steady in devotional service. Generally householders have children, and then the wives of the householders should be engaged in caring for the children, just as women acting as teachers care for the children in a nursery school. Grhastha devotees must adopt the arcana-vidhi, or Deity worship according to the suitable arrangements and directions given by the spiritual master. Regarding those unable to take to the Deity worship in the temple, there is the following statement in the Agni Purana. Any householder devotee circumstantially unable to worship the Deity must at least see the Deity worship, and in this way he may achieve success also. The special purpose of Deity worship is to keep oneself always pure and clean. Grhastha devotees should be actual examples of cleanliness. Deity worship should be continued along with hearing and chanting. Therefore every mantra is preceded by the word namah. In all the mantras there are specific potencies, of which the grhastha devotees must take advantage. There are many mantras preceded by the word namah, but if one chants the holy name of the Lord, he receives the result of chanting namah many times. By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one can reach the platform of love of Godhead. One might ask, then what is the necessity of being initiated? The answer is that even though the chanting of the holy name is sufficient to enable one to progress in spiritual life to the standard of love of Godhead, one is nonetheless susceptible to contamination because of possessing a material body. Consequently, special stress is given to the arcana-vidhi. One should therefore regularly take advantage of both the bhagavata process and pancaratriki process. Deity worship has two divisions, namely pure and mixed with fruitive activities. For one who is steady, Deity worship is compulsory. Observing the various types of festivals, such as Sri Janmastami, Rama-navami and Nrsimha-caturdasi, is also included in the process of Deity worship. In other words, it is compulsory for householder devotees to observe these festivals. Now let us discuss the offenses in Deity worship. The following are offenses: (a) to enter the temple with shoes or being carried on a palanquin, (b) not to observe the prescribed festivals, © to avoid offering obeisances in front of the Deity, (d) to offer prayers in an unclean state, not having washed one's hands after eating, (e) to offer obeisances with one hand, (f) to circumambulate directly in front of the Deity, (g) to spread one's legs before the Deity, (h) to sit before the Deity while holding one's ankles with one's hands, (i) to lie down before the Deity, (j) to eat before the Deity, (k) to speak lies before the Deity, (l) to address someone loudly before the Deity, (m) to talk nonsense before the Deity, (n) to cry before the Deity, (o) to argue before the Deity, (p) to chastise someone before the Deity, (q) to show someone favor before the Deity, ® to use harsh words before the Deity, (s) to wear a woolen blanket before the Deity, (t) to blaspheme someone before the Deity, (u) to worship someone else before the Deity, (v) to use vulgar language before the Deity, (w) to pass air before the Deity, (x) to avoid very opulent worship of the Deity, even though one is able to perform it, (y) to eat something not offered to the Deity, (z) to avoid offering fresh fruits to the Deity according to the season, (aa) to offer food to the Deity which has already been used or from which has first been given to others (in other words, food should not be distributed to anyone else until it has been offered to the Deity), (bb) to sit with one's back toward the Deity, (cc) to offer obeisances to someone else in front of the Deity, (dd) not to chant proper prayers when offering obeisances to the spiritual master, (ee) to praise oneself before the Deity, and (ff) to blaspheme the demigods. In the worship of the Deity, these thirty-two offenses should be avoided. In the Varaha Purana the following offenses are mentioned: (a) to eat in the house of a rich man, (b) to enter the Deity's room in the dark, © to worship the Deity without following the regulative principles, (d) to enter the temple without vibrating any sound, (e) to collect food that has been seen by a dog, (f) to break silence while offering worship to the Deity, (g) to go to the toilet during the time of worshiping the Deity, (h) to offer incense without offering flowers, (i) to worship the Deity with forbidden flowers, (j) to begin worship without having washed one's teeth, (k) to begin worship after sex, (l) to touch a lamp, dead body or a woman during her menstrual period, or to put on red or bluish clothing, unwashed clothing, the clothing of others or soiled clothing. Other offenses are to worship the Deity after seeing a dead body, to pass air before the Deity, to show anger before the Deity, and to worship the Deity just after returning from a crematorium. After eating, one should not worship the Deity until one has digested his food, nor should one touch the Deity or engage in any Deity worship after eating safflower oil or hing. These are also offenses. In other places, the following offenses are listed: (a) to be against the scriptural injunctions of the Vedic literature or to disrespect within one's heart the Srimad-Bhagavatam while externally falsely accepting its principles, (b) to introduce differing sastras, © to chew pan and betel before the Deity, (d) to keep flowers for worship on the leaf of a castor oil plant, (e) to worship the Deity in the afternoon, (f) to sit on the altar or to sit on the floor to worship the Deity (without a seat), (g) to touch the Deity with the left hand while bathing the Deity, (h) to worship the Deity with a stale or used flower, (i) to spit while worshiping the Deity, (j) to advertise one's glory while worshiping the Deity, (k) to apply tilaka to one's forehead in a curved way, (l) to enter the temple without having washed one's feet, (m) to offer the Deity food cooked by an uninitiated person, (n) to worship the Deity and offer bhoga to the Deity within the vision of an uninitiated person or non-Vaisnava, (o) to offer worship to the Deity without worshiping Vaikuntha deities like Ganesa, (p) to worship the Deity while perspiring, (q) to refuse flowers offered to the Deity, ® to take a vow or oath in the holy name of the Lord. If one commits any of the above offenses, one must read at least one chapter of Bhagavad-gita. This is confirmed in the Skanda-Purana, Avanti-khanda. Similarly, there is another injunction, stating that one who reads the thousand names of Visnu can be released from all offenses. In the same Skanda-Purana, Reva-khanda, it is said that one who recites prayers to tulasi or sows a tulasi seed is also freed from all offenses. Similarly, one who worships the salagrama-sila can also be relieved of offenses. In the Brahma-nda Purana it is said that one who worships Lord Visnu, whose four hands bear a conchshell, disc, lotus flower and club, can be relieved from the above offenses. In the Adi-varaha Purana it is said that a worshiper who has committed offenses may fast for one day at the holy place known as Saukarava and then bathe in the Ganges. In the process of worshiping the Deity it is sometimes enjoined that one worship the Deity within the mind. In the padma purana, Uttara-khanda, it is said, "All persons can generally worship within the mind." The Gautamiya Tantra states, "For a sannyasi who has no home, worship of the Deity within the mind is recommended." In the Narada-pancaratra it is stated by Lord Narayana that worship of the Deity within the mind is called manasa-puja, One can become free from the four miseries by this method. Sometimes worship from the mind can be independently executed. According to the instruction of Avirhotra Muni, one of the nava-yogendras, as mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam, one may worship the Deity by chanting all the mantras. Eight kinds of Deities are mentioned in the sastra, and the mental Deity is one of them. In this regard, the following description is given in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana. In the city of Pratisthana-pura, long ago, there resided a brahmana who was poverty-stricken but innocent and not dissatisfied. One day he heard a discourse in an assembly of brahmanas concerning how to worship the Deity in the temple. In that meeting, he also heard that the Deity may be worshiped within the mind. After this incident, the brahmana, having bathed in the Godavari River, began mentally worshiping the Deity. He would wash the temple within his mind, and then in his imagination he would bring water from all the sacred rivers in golden and silver waterpots. He collected all kinds of valuable paraphernalia for worship, and he worshiped the Deity very gorgeously, beginning from bathing the Deity and ending with offering arati. Thus he felt great happiness. After many years had passed in this way, one day within his mind he cooked nice sweet rice with ghee to worship the Deity. He placed the sweet rice on a golden dish and offered it to Lord Krsna, but he felt that the sweet rice was very hot, and therefore he touched it with his finger. He immediately felt that his finger had been burned by the hot sweet rice, and thus he began to lament. While the brahmana was in pain, Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha began smiling, and the goddess of fortune inquired from the Lord why He was smiling. Lord Visnu then ordered His associates to bring the brahmana to Vaikuntha. Thus the brahmana attained the liberation of samipya, the facility of living near the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (6) Vandanam. Although prayers are a part of Deity worship, they may be considered separately like the other items, such as hearing and chanting, and therefore separate statements are given herewith. The Lord has unlimited transcendental qualities and opulences, and one who feels influenced by the Lord's qualities in various activities offers prayers to the Lord. In this way he becomes successful. In this connection, the following are some of the offenses to be avoided: (a) to offer obeisances on one hand, (b) to offer obeisances with one's body covered, © to show one's back to the Deity, (d) to offer obeisances on the left side of the Deity, (e) to offer obeisances very near the Deity. (7) Dasyam. There is the following statement in regard to assisting the Lord as a servant. After many, many thousands of births, when one comes to understand that he is an eternal servant of Krsna, one can deliver others from this universe. If one simply continues to think that he is an eternal servant of Krsna, even without performing any other process of devotional service, he can attain full success, for simply by this feeling one can perform all nine processes of devotional service. (8) Sakhyam. In regard to worshiping the Lord as a friend, the Agastya-samhita states that a devotee engaged in performing devotional service by sravanam and kirtanam sometimes wants to see the Lord personally, and for this purpose he resides in the temple. Elsewhere there is this statement: "O my Lord, Supreme Personality and eternal friend, although You are full of bliss and knowledge, You have become the friend of the residents of Vrndavana. How fortunate are these devotees!" In this statement the word "friend" is specifically used to indicate intense love. Friendship, therefore, is better than servitude. In the stage above dasya-rasa, the devotee accepts the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a friend. This is not at all astonishing, for when a devotee is pure in heart the opulence of his worship of the Deity diminishes as spontaneous love for the Personality of Godhead is manifested. In this regard, Sridhara Svami mentions Sridama Vipra, who expressed to himself his feelings of obligation, thinking, "Life after life, may I be connected with Krsna in this friendly attitude." (9) Atma-nivedanam. The word Atma-nivedanam refers to the stage at which one who has no motive other than to serve the Lord surrenders everything to the Lord and performs his activities only to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such a devotee is like a cow that is cared for by its master. When cared for by its master, a cow is not in anxiety over its maintenance. Such a cow is always devoted to its master, and it never acts independently, but only for the master's benefit. Some devotees, therefore, consider dedication of the body to the Lord to be atma-nivedanam, and as stated in the book known as Bhakti-viveka, sometimes dedication of the soul to the Lord is called atma-nivedanam. The best examples of atma-nivedanam are found in Bali Maharaja and Ambarisa Maharaja. Atma-nivedanam is also sometimes found in the behavior of Rukminidevi at Dvaraka. SB 7.5.23-24 <o:p></o:p> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></B>

You left out the sentence that I was actually commenting on in one post and included it in the next one after that. No matter. Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada said that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement... </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->As a matter of fact Srila Prabhupada NEVER said "that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" Bali Mardan read that to him from a chinese scroll. You want the details you can read this vnn article: http://www.vnn.org/world/9802/09-1590/index.html I adjusted the post so you won't be confused as to what His Divine Grace actually said, and what people claim he said. Please spare me your sarcasm. Just who are you to advise anyone against hearing from a siksa guru? Try reading Adi lila 1.35 a little more carefully and we can all take His Divine Grace's advice instead of yours: <CENTER>TEXT 35 </CENTER><CENTER> mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana tanhara carana age kariye vandana </CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS </CENTER>mantra-guru--the initiating spiritual master; ara--and also; yata--as many (as there are); siksa-guru-gana--all the instructing spiritual masters; tanhara--of all of them; carana--unto the lotus feet; age--at first; kariye--I offer; vandana--respectful obeisances. <CENTER>TRANSLATION </CENTER>I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters. <CENTER>PURPORT </CENTER>Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his thesis Bhakti-sandarbha (202), has stated that uncontaminated devotional service is the objective of pure Vaisnavas and that one has to execute such service in the association of other devotees. By associating with devotees of Lord Krsna, one develops a sense of Krsna consciousness and thus becomes inclined toward the loving service of the Lord. This is the process of approaching the Supreme Lord by gradual appreciation in devotional service. If one desires unalloyed devotional service, one must associate with devotees of Sri Krsna, for by such association only can a conditioned soul achieve a taste for transcendental love and thus revive his eternal relationship with Godhead in a specific manifestation and in terms of the specific transcendental mellow (rasa) that one has eternally inherent in him. If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on. One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding. cc. Adi lila 1.35 HDGACBSP

Have I been quoting from His Divine Grace's books? Must be I read them, and go to them all the time for corroboration of anything I post. No one ever said not to read them. His Divine Grace wrote in Cc. Antya 7.53 "One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books." I am not making that up either. It is in the book. In the vanih HDG says seek out the vapuh. Accept that or ignore it as you wish. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja knew from what he spoke. You don't have any faith in SGGM's vanih then as you wish. We all vote with our feet. I know who I trust and it is certainly not the opinions of other conditioned souls over the written and spoken words of our acaryas. Not when it comes to what is spiritual and what is not. DUh!!!

Look at the sentence in context. It is a caution not to commit Vaisnava or seva aparadha, not a statement meant to discourage sadhu-sanga or stop us from performing arcana seva (worship of the Deity). TEXT 212 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> praphulla-kamala jini' nayana-yugala nilamani-darpana-kanti ganda jhalamala <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> praphulla-kamala--blossoming lotus flower; jini'--conquering; nayana-yugala--two eyes; nilamani--sapphire; darpana--mirror; kanti--luster; ganda--neck; jhalamala--bright. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> The eyes of Lord Jagannatha conquered the beauty of blossoming lotus flowers, and His neck was as lustrous as a mirror made of sapphires. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu usually saw Lord Jagannatha from a distance, standing behind the column of Garuda. But because he had not seen Lord Jagannatha for fifteen days, Caitanya Mahaprabhu felt great separation from Him. In great anxiety, Caitanya Mahaprabhu crossed the meeting hall and entered the room where food was offered, just to see the face of Lord Jagannatha. In verse 210, this action is called maryada-langhana, a violation of the regulative principles. This indicates that one should not come very near a superior. Both the Lord's Deity form and the spiritual master should be seen from a distant place. This is called maryada. Otherwise, as it is said, familiarity breeds contempt. Sometimes coming too near the Deity or the spiritual master degrades the neophyte devotee. Personal servants of the Deity and the spiritual master should therefore always be very careful, for negligence may overcome them in their duty. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's eyes have been compared to thirsty bumblebees, and Sri Jagannatha's eyes have been compared to blossoming lotus flowers. The author has made these comparisons in order to describe Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu while the Lord was deeply absorbed in ecstatic love for Lord Jagannatha. Cc. Madhya 12. 212 And it is a true enough fact that some of His Divine Grace's personal servant's left KC because they could not appreciate Srila Prabhupada's transcendental position and made such offenses. What this purport has to do with hearing the discourses of self realized souls is beyond me. What this purport has to do with sadhu sanga is also not clear. Spiritual life is likened to a razor's edge. Does that mean we make no effort?. We can get the greatest benefit from sadhu sanga, and if we misuse the opportunity and commit the mad elephant offense at the feet of Mahabhagavata Vaisnavas then the greatest harm can come to us, because such offenses can uproot our bhakti creeper. That is clear enough. So don't commit Vaisnava or seva aparadha.

As a matter of fact he NEVER said that. Bali Mardan read that to him from a chinese scroll. You want the details you can read this vnn article: http://www.vnn.org/world/9802/09-1590/index.html (I hope the edit makes it clear what sentence I am saying HDG never actually said). What part of this purport did you not take note of? TEXT 18 TEXT nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki SYNONYMS nasta--destroyed; prayesu--almost to nil; abhadresu--all that is inauspicious; nityam--regularly; bhagavata--Srimad-Bhagavatam, or the pure devotee; sevaya--by serving; bhagavati--unto the Personality of Godhead; uttama--transcendental; sloke--prayers; bhaktih--loving service; bhavati--comes into being; naisthiki--irrevocable. TRANSLATION By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact. PURPORT Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical. The devotee Bhagavata is a direct representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on. SB 1.2.18 HDGACBSP What part of Cc. Antya 5.131 went passed your understanding?. What part of the purport to Cc. Antya 7.53 have you not accepted? ************************************************** * A fly or a dog can be sitting on the vyasasana. The fly won't stay and if you throw a bone the dog will run and chase it. There is no doubt that being in physical proximity alone is not sufficient. But taking the association of sadhus, adau sraddha tatah sadhu sanga, and hearing from them is an essential part of practicing bhakti yoga Do you dare imply that the many statements in His Divine Grace's books about vapuh association of pure Vaisnava's are hackneyed dribble and bhogus manure? If we have to make a choice between Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's realization on this topic, and what we can clearly read in His Divine Grace's books over and over again,and what we heard him say time and again, or your opinion what do you think will tip the scale in one direction or the other? Anyone sincerly trying to become Krsna Conscious does not reject the opportunity to associate with Mahabhagavata Vaisnavas. Srila Prabhupada writes in the Bg: adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah "In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Krsna consciousness, which is matured in bhava, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life." In the prema stage there is constant engagement in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. So, by the slow process of devotional service, under the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, one can attain the highest stage, being freed from all material attachment, from the fearfulness of one's individual spiritual personality, and from the frustrations resulting from void philosophy. Then one can ultimately attain to the abode of the Supreme Lord. Bg. As It Is 4.10 HDGACBSP If you take the trouble to research this sloka in the books and throughout His Divine Grace's lectures he discusses it in many places. In Nectar of Devotion he wrote: <CENTER>Association with Pure Devotees</CENTER> Although many different processes for developing love of Godhead have been explained so far, Srila Rupa Gosvami now gives us a general description of how one can best achieve such a high position. The beginning of ecstatic love of Godhead is basically faith. There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid. The influence of a pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, one gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Thus, by the mercy of the Lord, who is situated in everyone's heart, one gradually develops his faith in the descriptions of such authoritative scriptures. This is the first stage of association with pure devotees. In the second stage, after one becomes a little advanced and mature, he automatically offers to follow the principles of devotional service under the guidance of the pure devotee and accepts him as the spiritual master. In the next stage, under the guidance of the spiritual master, the devotee executes regulative devotional service, and as a result of such activities, he becomes freed from all unwanted occupations. When he is freed from unwanted occupations, his faith becomes steadily fixed, and he develops a transcendental taste for devotional service, then attachment, then ecstasies, and in the last stage there is pure love of Godhead. These are the different stages of the development of pure love." **************************************** Adau sraddha tato sadhu-sanga. Sadhu-sanga means to associate with the devotees. Adau sraddha tato sadhu-sanga. Sadhu. Sadhu, this word, Sanskrit word, is meant for the devotees, the lover of Krsna. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita: sadhur eva sa mantavyah. Api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak, sadhur eva sa mantavyah. One who has unflinching faith in Krsna, one who is cent percent engaged to render service to Krsna, he is called sadhu. Sadhu does not mean a kind of dress or kind of beard. No. Sadhu means a devotee, perfect devotee of Krsna. That is a sadhu. Therefore it is recommended, sadhu-sanga. We have to associate with sadhu, means who have completely dedicated life for Krsna's service. from a lecture given on Bhagavad-gita 7.1 Sydney, February 16, 1973 Srimad Bhagavtam Class Hawaii, August 12, l974 740128SB.HAW <CENTER>Lectures</CENTER> Reporter: Because I take the word of my father, of my mother, that he is my father... Prabhupada: Yes. Reporter: ...I cannot prove it. Nobody can prove it that he is my father. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Therefore that is the beginning of knowledge. That is the beginning, adau sraddha. That is stated in the sastra: adau sraddha, faith. Then if you have got sraddha, then adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. Suppose if you are, if you are very much anxious, you have got faith to understand Krsna, then next step is to associate with persons who know Krsna. Just like you are doing some business, so you have to enter into some association, businessmen, to understand the business from them. Similarly, if you have faith in Krsna, then you have to understand Him through the association of devotees. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangau. Atha bhajana-kriya. Then as soon as you have... Just as these boys, they came to me. After association they wanted to be initiated: "Swami, please initiate." That is called bhajana-kriya. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah atha bhajana kriya. And if you are performing bhajana kriya nicely, then anartha-nivrttih syat, then all misgivings will go away. Reporter: Anartha visya. Prabhupada: Anartha-nivrttih syat. Then nobody will question. All questions will be anartha-nivrttih, all doubts gone. Then nistha, firm faith. Then firm faith, nistha. Then taste. Whenever there is Krsna topics, immediately you go. Tato nistha... Reporter: Taste? Prabhupada: Taste, rucih. Reporter: Accha. Taste, rucih. Prabhupada: Tato nistha tatah rucih athasakti , then attachment. Reporter: Tatha? Prabhupada: Asakti. Reporter: Asakti. Prabhupada: Mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. That is Krsna says, mayi asakta. We have to increase our asakta, attachment, for Krsna by this process. Tathasakti tatah bhavah. Then you will see Krsna everywhere. That is krsna prema. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada there are too many references to this verse to list them all. You can go here and access them if you want to read all the hits from the bbt folio: http://bvml.org/contemporary/appendix.htm#5

You are most welcome. We have been consistantly getting between 200-300 hits daily for some time now. All credit for the site should go to Bhutabhavana prabhu, who does the actual work of uploading and web design. It is as much a mystery to me how anyone who aspires to practice suddha bhakti cannot appreciate the association of a suddha bhakta. Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja said: " For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point." I have never heard him say anything that I couild not find confirmed in Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures. You should keep in mind this observation about different acaryas by His Divine Grace: “ Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was an ideal acarya. An acarya is an ideal teacher who knows the purpose of the revealed scriptures, behaves exactly according to their injunctions and teaches his students to adopt these principles also. As an ideal acarya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu devised ways to capture all kinds of atheists and materialists. Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different from that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends: tasmat kenapy upayena manah krsne nivesayet sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu...” “...It is the concern of the acarya to show mercy to the fallen souls. In this connection, desa-kala-patra (the place, the time and the object) should be taken into consideration...” Purport Cc. Adi lila 7.37 HDGACBSP and not judge by external differences. ys pda

Apparant contradictions in the vanih of any Gaudiya acarya, can only be resolved by consulting the predecessor acaryas, and/or a living representative of the guru parampara and making relevent submisive inquiry. Also you well know that many of His Divine Grace's letters are pertinent instructions for time and circumstance, and we give greater strenth to the evidence in his books. Do as you wish prabhu. I can't see how discrimination based on your own preconceptions will help you advance. What about this verse and purport? TEXT 71 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT <o:p></o:p> rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> "A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed. The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna. It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee. Cc. Madhya lila 22.71 <o:p></o:p> thanks for the confidence, but I am a struggling sub kanistha and still a very much conditioned soul. The tit for tat will go on forever. That is the nature of kali yuga. Srila Bhaktivinoda thakura wrote: "Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards-alocakagata, alocanagata, and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad. The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one s eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people s spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing one another. When an asslike mentality becomes prominent within the kanistha-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes deity worship in order to establish the worshipable Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered asslike people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to asslike mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices according to one‘s qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both asslike and swanlike people are found amongst the kanistha-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book with respect. If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in regard to the contradictions found in various practices and try to advance further, then they become swanlike persons. Then they are our respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions they have received, they nevertheless remain indifferent and nonsectarian." Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Non Sectarian Vaisnava Dharma http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm Certainly better to become a swan. Practically I don't post too often on these forums because they usually degrade into contentious arguments that benefit no one. But the suggestion on this thread by wordsmith that the presence of Srila Prabhupada's murti on the iskcon vyasasana's means he made a "contract" with iskcon never to leave it, and that his service remains identical to the seva he performed during his nara lila was a little much to digest. From what I have seen his Divine Grace's real presence hasn't been felt in iskcon for decades., and was to a great extent even ignored by many of his leading secretaries even during his physical presence as well. So I felt impelled to offer something in responce.

A godbrother asked me to post these references from bvml.org to make some of the topics under discussion here more clear from Srila Prabhupada's vanih. #1With regard to whether reading books is sufficient? Conversation with Srila Prabhupada May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.” Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1 Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13 ************************************************* TEXT 53 TEXT bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani' bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani SYNONYMS bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words. TRANSLATION Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service. PURPORT Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system. Cc. Antya lila 7.53 HSDGACBSP #2 With regard to the potency of the Srimad Bhagavatam and how to understand it: TEXT 18 TEXT nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki SYNONYMS nasta--destroyed; prayesu--almost to nil; abhadresu--all that is inauspicious; nityam--regularly; bhagavata--Srimad-Bhagavatam, or the pure devotee; sevaya--by serving; bhagavati--unto the Personality of Godhead; uttama--transcendental; sloke--prayers; bhaktih--loving service; bhavati--comes into being; naisthiki--irrevocable. TRANSLATION By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact. PURPORT Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical. The devotee Bhagavata is a direct representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on. SB 1.2.18 HDGACBSP ************************************************** * TEXT 131 TEXT "yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane ekanta asraya kara caitanya-carane SYNONYMS yaha--just go; bhagavata pada--read Srimad-Bhagavatam; vaisnavera sthane--from a self-realized Vaisnava; ekanta asraya kara--fully surrender; caitanya-carane--at the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. TRANSLATION "If you want to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam," he said, "you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." PURPORT Herein Svarupa Damodara Gosvami instructs the poet from Bengal to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a pure Vaisnava and learn from him. In India especially, there is now a class of professional Bhagavatam readers whose means of livelihood is to go from village to village, town to town, reading Bhagavatam and collecting daksina, or rewards, in the form of money or goods, like umbrellas, cloth and fruit. Thus there is now a system of Bhagavata business, with recitations called Bhagavata-saptaha that continue for one week, although this is not mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Nowhere does Srimad-Bhagavatam say that the Bhagavatam should be heard for one week from professionals. Rather, Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.17) says: srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah. One should regularly hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. By such hearing, one becomes pious. Hrdy antahstho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt-satam. As one thus hears the Bhagavatam regularly and sincerely, his heart is purified of all material contamination. nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki "As one regularly hears the Bhagavatam or renders service unto the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is practically destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact." (Bhag. 1.2.18) This is the proper process, but people are accustomed to being misled by professional Bhagavatam reciters. Therefore Svarupa Damodara Gosvami herein advises that one should not hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from professional reciters. Instead, one must hear and learn the Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. Sometimes it is seen that when a Mayavadi sannyasi reads the Bhagavatam, flocks of men go to hear jugglery of words that cannot awaken their dormant love for Krsna. Sometimes people go to see professional dramas and offer food and money to the players, who are expert at collecting these offerings very nicely. The result is that the members of the audience remain in the same position of grham andha-kupam, family affection, and do not awaken their love for Krsna. In the Bhagavatam (7.5.30), it is said, matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam: the grhavratas, those who are determined to continue following the materialistic way of life, will never awaken their dormant love of Krsna, for they hear the Bhagavatam only to solidify their position in household life and to be happy in family affairs and sex. Condemning this process of hearing the Bhagavatam from professionals, Svarupa Damodara Gosvami says, yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane: "To understand the Srimad-Bhagavatam, you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava." One should rigidly avoid hearing the Bhagavatam from a Mayavadi or other nondevotee who simply performs a grammatical jugglery of words to twist some meaning from the text, collect money from the innocent public, and thus keep people in darkness. Svarupa Damodara Gosvami strictly prohibits the behavior of the materialistic so-called hearers of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Instead of awakening real love for Krsna, such hearers of the Bhagavatam become more and more attached to household affairs and sex life (yanmaithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham). One should hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a person who has no connection with material activities, or, in other words, from a paramahamsa Vaisnava, one who has achieved the highest stage of sannyasa. This, of course, is not possible unless one takes shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The Srimad-Bhagavatam is understandable only for one who can follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Cc. Anyta lila Ch. 5. Txt 131 HDGACBSP #3 With regard as to what it means to be Krsna Conscious: TEXT 265 TEXT krsna-tattva, bhakti-tattva, prema-tattva sara bhava-tattva, rasa-tattva, lila-tattva ara SYNONYMS krsna-tattva--the truth of Krsna; bhakti-tattva--the truth of devotional service; prema-tattva--the truth of ecstatic love of Godhead; sara--the essence; bhava-tattva--the emotional truth; rasa-tattva--the truth of transcendental mellow; lila-tattva--the truth of pastimes of the Lord; ara--also. TRANSLATION Krsna consciousness means understanding the truth of Krsna, the truth of devotional service, the truth of love of Godhead, the truth of emotional ecstasy, the truth of transcendental mellow and the truth of the pastimes of the Lord. Cc. Madhya lila Ch. 25 Txt 265 HDGACBSP ****************************************************** TEXT 271 TEXT krsna-lila amrta-sara, tara sata sata dhara, dasa-dike vahe yaha haite se caitanya-lila haya, sarovara aksaya, mano-hamsa caraha' tahate SYNONYMS krsna-lila amrta-sara--the pastimes of Lord Krsna are the essence of all eternal bliss; tara sata sata dhara--the flow of that eternal bliss is running in hundreds of branches; dasa-dike--in all the ten directions; vahe--flows; yaha haite--from which; se--those; caitanya-lila--pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; haya--are; sarovara aksaya--a transcendental eternal lake; manah-hamsa--my mind, which is like a swan; caraha'--please wander; tahate--in that lake. TRANSLATION The pastimes of Lord Krsna are the essence of all nectar. They flow in hundreds of rivulets and in all directions. The pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are an eternal reservoir, and one is advised to let his mind swim like a swan on this transcendental lake. PURPORT The essence of spiritual knowledge is found in the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, which are identical with the pastimes of Lord Krsna. This is the essence of knowledge. If knowledge does not include the understanding of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Krsna, it is simply superfluous. By Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's grace, the nectar of Lord Sri Krsna's pastimes is flowing in different directions in hundreds and thousands of rivers. One should not think that the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are different from Krsna's pastimes. It is said: sri-krsna-caitanya, radha-krsna nahe anya. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is a combination of Radha-Krsna, and without understanding His pastimes, one cannot understand Radha and Krsna. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura therefore sings: rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti. kabe hama bujhaba se yugala piriti. "When shall I become very eager to study the books left by the six Gosvamis? Then I shall be able to understand the conjugal pastimes of Radha and Krsna." Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly empowered Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami. Following in their footsteps, the other six Gosvamis understood Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His mission. One should understand Sri Krsna Caitanya and Lord Sri Krsna from the Gosvamis in the parampara system. This Krsna consciousness movement is following as strictly as possible in the footsteps of the Gosvamis. Narottama dasa Thakura says, ei chaya gosani yara, mui tara dasa: "I am the servant of the six Gosvamis." The philosophy of Krsna consciousness is to become the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord. Whoever wants to understand the difficult subject matter of krsna-katha should accept the disciplic succession. If one is somehow or other able to understand Krsna, his life will be successful. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna. A perfect devotee is able to understand Krsna through the disciplic succession, and his entrance into the kingdom of God is thereby certainly opened. When one understands Krsna, there is no difficulty in transferring oneself to the spiritual kingdom. Cc. Madhya 25.271 HDGACBSP #4 With regard to why many give lip service to accepting HDGACBSP but have a problem placing faith in a current living person bhagavata: ". . . After hearing such praise of Nimai Pandita’s logical reasoning, Vrajanatha Nyaya-pancanana became quite curious to hear His arguments. With difficulty, he was able to collect a few of those arguments from various sources. Human nature is such that when one develops faith in a particular subject, he will naturally feel regard for the teachers of that subject. Moreover, for various reasons, common people do not easily develop faith in exalted personalities who are still living, whereas they tend to develop great faith in the activities of mahajanas who have passed away. Nyaya-pancanana developed unshakable faith in Nimai Pandita by studying his logical thesis." Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 12

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Beggar, Thank you very much for posting this information and your comments. The entire essay can be found and read here: http://bvml.org/SBSST/tb.htm In this brilliant essay SBSST defeats the rtvk manifesto two generations before it even reared its ugly atheistic head. He wrote: "Those who repeat the teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinode from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat. Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.Take for example the Name "Krishna". Every reader of Thakur Bhaktivinode's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakur Bhaktivinode and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krishna by the process conveyed by the words. . . "What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees. Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers.His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

Devotee #7: Then what is the meaning of the brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has said that our kirtana is brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana, the printing press. Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. That will inspire you. Just one book distributed spreads so far. First you read the book and then one friend says, "Oh, let me read it." Then he lets someone else read it. In this way it sprads so much. The sound of the mrdanga only goes rom here to there. But the brhad-mrdanga spreads so far. That will inspire you. You will think, "Who is the source? Let me go and see and hear from him." Devotee #7: So first you hear and then if you read the same thing in the sastra... Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. It is only in Kali-yuga that books are required.. In other yugas there are no books. Just by hearing once they would never forget. But in this yuga, if I ask you to repeat what you have heard after the class, how much can you repeat? You will have already forgotton ninety to ninety-five percent. Only five percent you may be able to repeat. Books are required. Therefore Vyasadev came and wrote books. In other yugas there are no books. They will help you remember, "Oh yes. I have heard. Now it is here." Devotee #7: In your book Sri Guru-vandana, you have described this flow of nectar as padma-madhu.You said that it comes to a devotee who is a sincere hearer. So someone who is very sincere to hear from guru and serves guru, he may get that nectar even though he may not have physical contact? Gour Govinda Swami: You should be greedy. Physical contact is required. You must hear directly, not just by listening to tapes. Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically present Sri Guru. Those are your words, not mine. Kindly don't put words in my mouth. I am repeating what Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja instructed and what Srila Prabhupada wrote on this practical matter. Argue with them, not me. I have never said or written that transcendental literatures lack potency. The Srimad Bhagavatam states very clearly that it is non different than Sri Krsna. However, you cannot deny the practical instructions written in the books, and commentaries of our acaryas. In Bg. 4.34 Sri Krsna says to approach a bona fide spiritual master, inquire from him submissively and render service. That such a self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because He has seen the truth. So if you read that and then don't act on it of what value is your reading? The bvml staff believes wholeheartedly that the words of our acaryas, spoken and written, are the most valuable legacy meant for the eternal benefit of all jiva souls. Their careful study under the guidance of a sad-guru is an essential element of actually practicing bhakti-yoga or Krsna consciousness. Kindly examine these two lectures by His Divine Grace: Learn Bhagavatam From The Living Bhagavata by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada http://bvml.org/ACBSP/lbtlb.htm Hear The Discourses Given By Self-Realized Souls by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada http://bvml.org/ACBSP/htdsrs.htm How to maximize the benefit of the words left by our acaryas and practically apply the information given in their commentaries is called vijnana. Rtvks and others can try to minmize and even eliminate the importance of the vapuh association of pure devotees and hearing directly from them, but to no avail. The books and commentaries speak for themselves. Kindly examine this compilation from Srila Prabhupada's books and statements regarding sadhu-sanga. 108 Srila Prabhupada Quotes On the Importance of Having the Association of Pure Devote http://bvml.org/contemporary/108spq.htm KC started manifesting in this universe with Lord Brahma's direct hearing from Sri Krsna, and the transmission of knowledge continues the same way . "One must learn the transcendental subject by submissive aural reception from the right sources. . . . " Purport SB 1.5. HDGACBSP ". . . The acarya or the gosvami must be well acquainted with all these literatures. To hear and explain them is more important than reading them. One can assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures only by hearing and explaining. Hearing is called sravana, and explaining is called kirtana. The two processes of sravana and kirtana are of primary importance to progressive spiritual life. Only one who has properly grasped the transcendental knowledge from the right source by submissive hearing can properly explain the subject. . . . " Purport 1.6 SB HDGACBSP at present and in future; Try reading the books and commentaries under the guidance of a sad guru and then any apparant contradictions are easily resolved, otherwise not. Srila Prabhupada gave the analogy of the medical library so many times in his lectures. Without the direciton of living physicians and medical professors you will not even know which medical books to read and which to avoid. When you know which books are required you can then read them . To become a licensed bona fide physician you must also associate and learn directly from other medical men. Many devotees forget that from l965-l977 we read Srila Prabhupada's books under his guidance and simultaneously hearing from him directly. If the books were all that were required then why didn't His Divine Grace simply send books around the world, and stay put in India? Why did he travel extensively so many times around the planet? To give us his vapuh association and to give his disciples the opportunity to hear from his lotus lips and associate with his vapuh manifestation. Disciplic Succession means that after the departure of any sad-guru, another qualified personality, self-effulgent acarya, will manifest to continue to assist, encourage and direct sincere souls back to Godhead. The guru parampara did not stop dead or end with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as rtvks would like you to believe. That is sectarian thinking couched in the guise of KC. His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said in l936: " Gentlemen, on behalf of the members of the Bombay branch of the Gaudiya Math, let me welcome you all because you have so kindly joined us tonight in our congregational offerings of homage to the lotus feet of the world teacher, acaryadeva, who is the founder of this Gaudiya Mission and is the President-acarya of Sri Sri Visva Vaisnava Raja Sabha-I mean my eternal divine master, Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya, Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja. Sixty-two years ago, on this auspicious day, the acaryadeva made his appearance by the call of Thakura Bhaktivinoda at Sri Ksetra, Jagannatha Dhama at Puri. Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else’s. There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said: <CENTER>tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham </CENTER>"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth." Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly. . . " http://bvml.org/ACBSP/oeg.htm Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharja has written: "Our most worshipable spiritual master Sri Srila Prabhupada (SBSST)has bestowed his affectionate blessings not only to his disciples, but to his grand-disciples and all those who will in the future come to this line of disciplic succession. There is no cause for loss of hope or fear, for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's line will never cease. This is the assurance of Sri Srila Prabhupada, the world teacher. He is eternally present among us. He is my Lord birth after birth, he is my only source of strength and those following in his footsteps should take his merciful instructions on their heads by mutually cooperating with each other, with Jagat Guru Sri Srila Prabhupada as the center, and try to fulfill his desires in serving the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. All perfection will be attained on pleasing Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada." http://bvml.org/ACBSP/oeg.htm His Divine Grace Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada said: " This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, "There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future" is an atheistic opinion." Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written: Excerpt from Sri Bhakti Tattva Viveka by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura: "Most respectable Vaisnavas! Our sole objective is to relish and propagate the nectar of suddha-bhakti unto Lord Hari. Therefore, our foremost duty is to understand the true nature for suddha bhakti. This understanding will benefit us in two ways. First, knowing the true nature of suddha-bhakti will dispel our ignorance concerning the topic of bhakti and thus make our human life successful by allowing us to relish the nectar derived form engaging in suddha-bhakti in its pure form. Secondly, it will enable us to protect ourselves from the polluted and mixed concepts which currently exist in the name of suddha-bhakti. Unfortunately, in present day society in the name of suddha-bhakti various types of mixed devotion such as karma-misra (mixed with fruitive action), jnana-misra (mixed with speculative knowledge and yoga-misra (mixed with various types of yoga processes) as well as various polluted and imaginary concepts are spreading everywhere like germs of a plague. People in general consider these polluted and mixed conceptions to be bhakti, respect them as such and thus remain deprived of suddha-bhakti. These polluted and mixed concepts are our greatest enemies. Some people say there is no value in bhakti, that God is an imaginary sentiment only, that man has merely created the image of God in his imagination, and that bhakti is just a diseased state of consciousness which cannot benefit us in any way. These types of people, though opposed to bhakti, cannot do much harm to us because we can easily recognise them and avoid them. But those who propagate that bhagavad-bhakti is the highest dharma yet behave against the principles of suddha-bhakti and also instruct others against the principles of suddha-bhakti can be especially harmful to us. In the name of bhakti they instruct us against the actual principles of bhakti and ultimately lead us onto a path which is totally opposed to bhagavad-bhakti. Therefore, with great endeavour our previous acaryas have defined the svarupa or intrinsic nature of bhakti and have repeatedly cautioned us to keep ourselves away from polluted and mixed concepts. We shall deliberate on their instructions in sequence. They have compiled numerous literatures to establish the svarupa of bhakti, and amongst them Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is the most beneficial. In defining the general characteristics of suddha-bhakti, Srila Rupa Goswami has written there (verse 1.1.11): anyabhilasita sunyam jnana-karmady anavrtam anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama "The cultivation of activities which are meant exclusively for the pleasure of Sri Krsna, or in other words the uninterrupted flow of service to Sri Krsna, performed through all endeavors of the body, mind, and speech, and through the expression of various spiritual sentiments ( bhavas), which is not covered by jnana (knowledge aimed at impersonal liberation) and karma (reward-seeking activity), and which is devoid of all desires other than the aspiration to bring happiness to Sri Krsna, is called uttama-bhakti, pure devotional service."

<CENTER>Questions and Answers </CENTER>Devotee #1: Sabda-brahma is Krishna in sound vibration? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. One has to hear. It is not that, "All right, tapes are there, I'll hear the recorded tapes." Sabda-brahma will never descend. Devotee #2: It doesn't descend through transmission of tape? Gour Govinda Swami: No, no. Devotee #2: Only when you are personally sitting there with a pure vaisnava? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Now in this material scientific age so many techniques are there. People, say, "No more teacher are required. We'll teach through television." Nonsense. Sabda-brahma will never descend. Devotee #3: What if one is a disciple of a bonafide guru, then later on that guru stops his lila. What should one do? Gour Govinda Swami: Lila is always there: adyapiha sei lila kare gaura-raya, kona kona bhagyavan dekhibare paya (Cb. quoted in Bhaktivinode Thakur's Navadvipa Mahatmya Pramana-khanda) Gauranga's pastimes are still going on. People say, "Oh Gauranga Mahaprabhu has disappeared." One who is very fortunate and has vision he can see how gaura-lila is going on. Devotee #3: That means that guru is always there? Gour Govinda Swami:Yes. He is always there. His lila is going on. Devotee #3: I may think, "I have already taken the dust of the lotus feet of my guru. Now he is not here. So I don't need that dust anymore." Gour Govinda Swami: Darsana is there. The guru is always there if you have the eye to see. If you are a sat-sisya you can always see how the guru is present. Devotee #4: How can we see guru? Gour Govinda Swami: Blind man! If you are endowed with that vision you can see.I never lost sight of my guru. I see my guru is always there. Therefore I cannot say,"nitya-lila-pravistha". It is so painful to me. No! He is here. Devotee #4: Do you have to be a pure dovotee to see a pure devotee? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes! That vision is required. If you have no vision then you are a blind man.How can a blind man see? The object is there. What is required to see the object? The first thing is the eye. Next is light. You may be endowed with vision, but if there is no light, how can you see? Can you see in the darkness? Therefore two things are required, first vision and then light. Even if you are endowed with eyes, if there is no light then you can't see. What is that light? The enlightenment by the mercy potency. If you are devoid of that, how can you see? Devotee #5: Anarthas are like clouds in front of the eye? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Yes. Anarthas are like clouds covering the sun. The eye is covered. Devotee #2: Can one see guru appearing in different forms, or is he coming in dreams? Gour Govinda Swami: He may come in a dream. He has different forms also, just as Krishna has different forms. Krishna has so many manifestations. Therefor we have described in our book Sri Guru-vandana about samasti-guru and vyasti-guru. Devotee #6: What are those kind of gurus? Gour Govinda Swami: Guru Krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane (Cc. adi-lila1.45} -- scripture describes that it is Krishna who appears as guru. Krishna is one. Guru tattva is also one. Guru is one, but he appears in different, different, forms. That is samasti-guru. The particular forms such as Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Bhakitisiddhanta, this person and that, this is vyasti-guru. Devotee #3: When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati left, guru was still there? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Devotee #3: Guru is always present? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, always present. Devotee #3: Because guru is non-different from Krishna we understand that to be a guru is not an easy thing. So why is it said that someone maybe on the level of kanistha or madhyama and be guru? Gour Govinda Swami: All are gurus. There is kanistha-guru, madhyama-guru, uttama-gurus. Divisions are there. What you deserve you get. Krishna knows what you deserve so He makes an appropriate arrangement for you. Devotee #7: Some devotees are not accepting guru now. They are saying, "I'll just accept sastra. Gour Govinda Swami: How can you understand sastra? Devotee #7: But we have seen, as in Russia, that some devotees have only gotten books and they are now chanting, worshiping the deity, and preaching. Gour Govinda Swami: You cannot understand. In sastra, mantra is there. Nama is there. But unless it comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, your chanting will never be effective. The potency will never be there. Devotee #7: But they say that smrti-sastra is coming from the lips of vaisnavas, so we are heaing smrti. Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. This is how sastra manifests. When is comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, then it manifests. Though sastra is there, by itself it will never manifest to you. It's a question of manifestation. Devotee #7: Other persons say that we can hear from the commentaries of the vaisnava-acaryas. Gour Govinda Swami: For that reason it is said, bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam na buddhya na ca tikaya Srimad Bhagavatam can only be understood by bhakti, not be dint of one's intelligence or by reading commentaries. (Cc.24.313) You cannot understand Bhagavata by taking help of the tikas, commentaries. So many commentaries are there. One may think, "Yes, I am a scholar. It is all written in Sanskrit. I know the language so I can read and understand it." No! You can only understand Srimad Bhagavatam by bhakti. You cannot understand Bhagavata by dint of your material scholarship, learning, intelligence, or by taking the help of the commentaries. No, no. Hear from acarya and then you can develop bhakti. Unless you hear, how can you understand just by reading? You cannot understand. Grantha-avatara will never manifest to you. You will only see paper, and black and white. Nothing else. Devotee #7: Then what is the meaning of the brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has said that our kirtana is brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana, the printing press. Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. That will inspire you. Just one book distributed spreads so far. First you read the book and then one friend says, "Oh, let me read it." Then he lets someone else read it. In this way it sprads so much. The sound of the mrdanga only goes rom here to there. But the brhad-mrdanga spreads so far. That will inspire you. You will think, "Who is the source? Let me go and see and hear from him." Devotee #7: So first you hear and then if you read the same thing in the sastra... Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. It is only in Kali-yuga that books are required.. In other yugas there are no books. Just by hearing once they would never forget. But in this yuga, if I ask you to repeat what you have heard after the class, how much can you repeat? You will have already forgotton ninety to ninety-five percent. Only five percent you may be able to repeat. Books are required. Therefore Vyasadev came and wrote books. In other yugas there are no books. They will help you remember, "Oh yes. I have heard. Now it is here." Devotee #7: In your book Sri Guru-vandana, you have described this flow of nectar as padma-madhu.You said that it comes to a devotee who is a sincere hearer. So someone who is very sincere to hear from guru and serves guru, he may get that nectar even though he may not have physical contact? Gour Govinda Swami: You should be greedy. Physical contact is required. You must hear directly, not just by listening to tapes. Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically present Sri Guru. <HR>

A Sadhu is Always Present<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> by Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: Srila Prabhupada always emphasized that he was eternally present in his books, instructions, tapes and letters. So when you say we should take association of a sadhu, can we do that through Srila Prabhupada’s books?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: If Prabhupada says he is there, then you try to see him, to associate with him and listen from him. Do you see Prabhupada? Do you hear from Prabhupada? Is he speaking to you?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: Through his books.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Gour Govind Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through their books. This is not a new thing. This is our vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Can you see Jiva Goswami? You may say, “Oh I have read their books; I have their asociation.” That won’t help you. You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, “We need only to read books. There is no need of associating with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu? No, there is no sadhu at all.” Your motto is, “Seeing is believing.” You cannot see, so you cannot believe. Because you are a conditioned soul, your vision is defective. You cannot see a sadhu. Krishna is there, can you see Him? No, you cannot, because you are not endowed with proper vision. First develop the proper vision, and then you can see Krishna. Then you can see how a sadhu is there. It is not a fact that sadhus are not present. How is everything going on? How does the sun rise, the wind blow, and Indra give rain? All these things are going on. No sadhu? No Krishna? It’s nonsense, foolishness. We are so proud and puffed up. We are identifying ourself as the body, mind and false ego. We think we are very great. So we say, “Oh, there is no sadhu.” We are in the category of identification with the body and mind.We have not come to the beginning of the stage of purity. No!<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: So we have to associate with a living sadhu? 1<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Definately. 2 There is always one there. But he is not a cheap person. Such a person is very rare. If you can get his mercy then you can see him. Otherwise, by your own effort and perceptoin, you cannot see him. No, no, no.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You always think that you are drasta, the seer, and that the sadhu is drsta, the one to be seen. Everyone is like this. They think they are the seers. But it is just the reverse. You are to be seen and they are the seer! Think this over very deeply. I think you cannot completely understand what I say. We always think that we are the seer and that they are to be seen, but this is not a fact. It is just the reverse. They are the seers and we are to be seen.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: How are we seen by sadhu? By our service?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, the sadhu is the seer. If he showers his mercy upon you, he sees you. If you receive that merciful glance then you are very fortuntae. However, you are in the category of bodily consciousness. How can you have it? Guru is the manifestation of the Supersoul, caitya-guru in the heart. He manifests a body and appears. He knows your heart.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: I don’t quite understand. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, try to understand. As I told you, just hear patiently. A new bhakta cannot understand it because it is a topic of the highest class. You are in pre-primary class, how can you understand? You are not even in the primary class. How can you understand this topic of the highest class? Just accept the bona fide authorities. That will help you. The teacher says, “Two plus two is four.” The primary student accepts it. If the teacher asks the child, “What is two plus two?” The child will reply, “Two plus two is four.” “ Why is two plus two four?” “My teacher says.” He will answer like this. That means he has accepted authority. This is the only principle in the beginning. How is two plus two four? Why not three or five? That will be explained in a higher mathematics class, not in the beginning. You have to have patience and get a promotion. My guru maharaja says in his purport that the beginning is purity of consciousness. First come to this beginning stage, then gradually other things will come up. You are not in the beginning stage, so how will the higher topics come up? This is a very, very subtle and very deep philosophy. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Putting full faith in the sadhu, you need only submissively hear --- sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. In that way you can get the mercy of that sadhu. That will help you. Only one thing is required, nothing else --- sravanam, sravana, sravanam. Just hear. Serve that sadhu, please him, hear submissively, surrender yourself at his lotus feet and submissively ask questions. Out of mercy the sadhu will impart this tattva jnana to you. This is the only process.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Unless you get association with a living sadhu, what can you do? Will you put some question to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada will answer you? This process is a living thing. It is always there, and it is always current. It is not that inquiry was done a certain way in the past and now things are done differently. No! It is an eternal process, pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ---The Process of Inquiry, Chapter Six. Gopal Jiu Publications. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> APPENDIX<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> TEXT 53<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani'<o:p></o:p> bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. 2 One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Cc. Antya lila, Ch. 7. Txt 53<o:p></o:p> Translation and Purport by<o:p></o:p> His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2<o:p></o:p> TEXT 131 <o:p></o:p> "yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane<o:p></o:p> ekanta asraya kara caitanya-carane<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> yaha--just go; bhagavata pada--read Srimad-Bhagavatam; vaisnavera sthane--from a self-realized Vaisnava; ekanta asraya kara--fully surrender; caitanya-carane--at the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "If you want to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam," he said, "you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Herein Svarupa Damodara Gosvami instructs the poet from Bengal to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a pure Vaisnava and learn from him. In India especially, there is now a class of professional Bhagavatam readers whose means of livelihood is to go from village to village, town to town, reading Bhagavatam and collecting daksina, or rewards, in the form of money or goods, like umbrellas, cloth and fruit. Thus there is now a system of Bhagavata business, with recitations called Bhagavata-saptaha that continue for one week, although this is not mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Nowhere does Srimad-Bhagavatam say that the Bhagavatam should be heard for one week from professionals. Rather, Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.17) says: srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah. One should regularly hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. By such hearing, one becomes pious. Hrdy antahstho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt-satam. As one thus hears the Bhagavatam regularly and sincerely, his heart is purified of all material contamination.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> nasta-prayesv abhadresu<o:p></o:p> nityam bhagavata-sevaya<o:p></o:p> bhagavaty uttama-sloke<o:p></o:p> bhaktir bhavati naisthiki<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "As one regularly hears the Bhagavatam or renders service unto the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is practically destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact." (Bhag. 1.2.18)<o:p></o:p> This is the proper process, but people are accustomed to being misled by professional Bhagavatam reciters. Therefore Svarupa Damodara Gosvami herein advises that one should not hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from professional reciters. Instead, one must hear and learn the Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. Sometimes it is seen that when a Mayavadi sannyasi reads the Bhagavatam, flocks of men go to hear jugglery of words that cannot awaken their dormant love for Krsna. Sometimes people go to see professional dramas and offer food and money to the players, who are expert at collecting these offerings very nicely. The result is that the members of the audience remain in the same position of grham andha-kupam, family affection, and do not awaken their love for Krsna.<o:p></o:p> In the Bhagavatam (7.5.30), it is said, matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam: the grhavratas, those who are determined to continue following the materialistic way of life, will never awaken their dormant love of Krsna, fur they hear the Bhagavatam only to solidify their position in household life and to be happy in family affairs and sex. Condemning this process of hearing the Bhagavatam from professionals, Svarupa Damodara Gosvami says, yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane: "To understand the Srimad-Bhagavatam, you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava." One should rigidly avoid hearing the Bhagavatam from a Mayavadi or other nondevotee who simply performs a grammatical jugglery of words to twist some meaning from the text, collect money from the innocent public, and thus keep people in darkness.<o:p></o:p> Svarupa Damodara Gosvami strictly prohibits the behavior of the materialistic so-called hearers of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Instead of awakening real love for Krsna, such hearers of the Bhagavatam become more and more attached to household affairs and sex life (yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham). One should hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a person who has no connection with material activities, or, in other words, from a paramahamsa Vaisnava, one who has achieved the highest stage of sannyasa. This, of course, is not possible unless one takes shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The Srimad-Bhagavatam is understandable only for one who can follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Cc. Antya lila, Ch. 5, Txt 131<o:p></o:p> Translation and Purport by<o:p></o:p> His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2> Return to

. When a bona fide acarya is manifest here (Bhu-Mandala) during his nara lila, he can also be simultaneously manifest in goloka. "In all the ancient scriptures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu." HDGACBSP CC. Adi lila 1.46 "There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service. . . . The initiating spiritual master is a personal manifestation of Srila Madana-mohana vigraha, whereas the instructing spiritual master is a personal representative of Srila Govindadeva vigraha. Both of these Deities are worshiped at Vrndavana. Srila Gopinatha is the ultimate attraction in spiritual realization. HDGACBSP Cc. Adi lila 1.47 Eternally liberated (nitya-mukta) souls are not confined by material bodies like conditioned souls. Neither are they limited to one manifestation. e.g. Lord Siva manifests in Rama Lila as Hanuman. Narada Muni manifest in so many different lilas of Sri Krsna, in Dvaraka, in Mathura, all over the universe. Pure souls can manifest svarupa's in both Krsna and Caitanya lila, Braja and Nabadwipa. Uttama adhikari Vaisnavas who are sent to deliver fallen souls in the maha tattva, always serve Sri Sri Radha and Krsna in their eternal lila, manasi-seva, even when they appear to take the position of madhyama adhikari to allow themselves to be visible to our external senses, initiate disciples, preach to conditioned souls and shower their mercy within the material energy. That is why after the maha samadhi of any Gaudiya Vaisnava his true followers will chant "nitya lila pravistha om visnupada etc. . . in the dhvani prayers that glorify Sri Guru, after kirtana ends. In one sense pure devotees never "leave" goloka. They bring it with them wherever they serve. The spiritual master's position is confirmed in the guruvastakam prayers of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and in the songs of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Narottama das thakura as well. ******************************** ". . . Samadhi is a Sanskrit word consisting of the two syllables: sama-dhi. Sama means “the same” and dhi means “intelligence”. It means that the pure devotee who is departing from this world is entering the same level, same position and same mood as the personal associates of his worshipful deity – with equal intelligence, equal beauty and equal qualities. He is serving properly according to his own svarupa (constitutional form). Srila Svami Maharaja’s worshipful deity is Srimati Radhika, and he is serving Her under the guidance of Her personal associates, the manjaris, headed by Sri Rupa Manjari. . . . nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya tatrati-daksyad ati-vallabhasya vande guroh sri caranaravindam (6) ["Sri Gurudeva is always present with the sakhis, planning the arrangements for the perfection of yugala-kisora’s amorous pastimes (rati-keli) within the kunjas of Vrndavana. Because he is so expert in making these tasteful arrangements for Their pleasure, he is very dear to Sri Radha and Krsna. I offer prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva." from: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=Title align=middle>How Deep is the Mountain?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> ISKCON Juhu Beach temple, Mumbai, 1993 Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/sbnm_early_hditm.shtml DISCUSSION ON SRI GURVASTAKAM, 1-5 (Meditation Center, Germany, December 2, 2000, am http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20001202am.shtml

Dandavat pranams to you Nimbo pani prabhu, You are most welcome. FYI one time I prepared carrot pakoras for the Deities in Dallas,(Sri Sri Radha Kalachandji) and the head pujari then (mother Shelavati) told me that carrots were nice food for horses but not for the Deities. I didn't use them again in any preparations. Personally I don't offer carrots of any kind, western or indian. Occasionally someone here juices a few up for a health tonic, but otherwise not. Here is what SBVNM said about the matter: "There are many items that are not allowed during Caturmasya, such as leafy vegetables on the first month, yogurt on the second month, milk on the third month, and mustard oil on the forth month. Besides this, throughout all four months, tomatoes, eggplants, and several other foodstuffs are prohibited. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to follow all these rules very strictly, but nowadays we see that devotees don't follow. Our Guru Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura were very strong in this regard. Srila Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura said, "Take my photo during the four months of Caturmasya-vrata to show that I never shave at that time. Always keep it; otherwise so many so-called disciples will say, 'Oh, Prabhupada never observed Caturmasya-vrata'." Parama-pujyapada Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja gave concessions in the Western countries, and that is the only reason also used to shave. The Westerners could not follow strictly at that time. That is why he allowed tomatoes and eggplant, and that is also why he used to take them. And that is why he also allowed carrots. I am therefore also giving concessions, not here in India, but in Western countries. If the devotees there like, they can take these items, but we don't take them. We should strictly follow our proper line from Mahaprabhu to Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura and my diksa and siksa-gurus. In Western countries some concession should be given, but here in India we are very strict. If we cannot follow this, then how can we follow Krsna, and how can we serve Radha and Krsna? Mahaprabhu shaved – after two months – and we follow this. . . " from http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20040928.shtml

found this link : http://www.salagram.net/Onions-Garlic-in-relation2Vaishnavism.html with a simple google search of "Prabhupada on garlic" http://www.google.com/search?hs=83U&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=Prabhupada++on+garlic&btnG=Search

Because between different mathas, and missions the following of certain rules is not identical. For example during catur masya (four month rainy season), followers of Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharja (founder acarya of the Gaudiya Vedanta Samhiti) do not take tomatoes, eggplants or urad dahl for all the four months. In some other Gaudiya Missions they don't observe a fast from tomatoes. The followers of SBPKGM (householders and brahmacaries and sannyasis) generally do not shave but once a month. In other Gaudiya Missions this rule is only followed by sannyasis. All depends on how the particular acarya of that mission chose to follow such details. Srila Prabhupada (HDGACBSP) never asked his disciples to not shave or not eat carrots and only gave simple restrictions for catur maysa for milk, spinach, yogurt and urah dahl in each of the four respective months. In other Gaudiya missions during the month when spinach is not taken they do not take ANY green leafy vegetables. They also don't eat broccoli, cauliflower and salad greens on ekadasi. The real point is to follow the order of the guru and his particular example, whatever it may be. Srila Prabhupada explains : In the purport to verse Cc. Adi lila 7.37, : “ Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was an ideal acarya. An acarya is an ideal teacher who knows the purpose of the revealed scriptures, behaves exactly according to their injunctions and teaches his students to adopt these principles also. As an ideal acarya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu devised ways to capture all kinds of atheists and materialists. Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different from that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends: tasmat kenapy upayena manah krsne nivesayet sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu...” “...It is the concern of the acarya to show mercy to the fallen souls. In this connection, desa-kala-patra (the place, the time and the object) should be taken into consideration...” Cc. Adi lila 7.37-38 Srila Prabhupada writes in the Nectar of Devotion: “Srila Rupa Gosvami states that his elder brother (Sanatana Gosvami) has compiled Hari-bhakti-vilasa for the guidance of the Vaisnavas and therein has mentioned many rules and regulations to be followed by the Vaisnavas. Some of them are very important and prominent, and Srila Rupa Gosvami will now mention these very important items for our benefit. The purport of this statement is that Srila Rupa Gosvami proposes to mention only basic principles, not details. For example, a basic principle is that one has to accept a spiritual master. Exactly how one follows the instructions of his spiritual master is considered a detail. For example, if one is following the instruction of his spiritual master and that instruction is different from the instructions of another spiritual master, this is called detailed information. But the basic principle of acceptance of a spiritual master is good everywhere, although the details may be different. Srila Rupa Gosvami does not wish to enter into details here, but wants to place before us only the principles...” While garlic may be useful as a blood purifyer and/or medicine, it still doesn't make it suitable to offer to Sri Krsna or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, or Sri Sri Gour Nitai, or any Vaisnava Deity, with love and devotion. Can't you smell how pungent it is when it is used in cooking? Our downstairs neighbors cook with both onions and garlic, and when they do I have to hold my nose as I climb the stairs past their flat. Regardless, spiritual life is most successfully executed under the anugatya (guidance) of a sad guru. Without his practical association and guidance we would not know what pleased the Supreme Lord, or what was best for us to do or not do to cultivate bhakti. Another inter sampradaya example is that on ekadasi, Guadiya Vaisanavad dont' take grains of any kind. In the Sri Sampradaya they consider following ekadasi means not to eat long grain rice. They still use dahl and other grains in various forms and don't see it as any violation of a rule. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explained such differences in this essay: http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm "The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one s eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism."

Govinda das, Greetings. The real principle is that we accept Lord Krsna's statement in the Bg. regarding offering, Ch.9.26, and then follow the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, as to the details of how to apply Lord Krsna's instruction practically (see purport by HDGACBSP). <CENTER></CENTER> <CENTER>Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge</CENTER> TEXT 26 patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati tad aham bhakty-upahrtam asnami prayatatmanah SYNONYMS patram--a leaf; puspam--a flower; phalam--a fruit; toyam--water; yah--whoever; me--unto Me; bhaktya--with devotion; prayacchati--offers; tat--that; aham--I; bhakti-upahrtam--offered in devotion; asnami--accept; prayata-atmanah--of one in pure consciousness. TRANSLATION If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it. PURPORT Here Lord Krsna, having established that He is the only enjoyer, the primeval Lord, and the real object of all sacrificial offerings, reveals what types of sacrifices He desires to be offered. If one wishes to engage in devotional service to the Supreme in order to be purified and reach the goal of life--the transcendental loving service of God--then he should find out what the Lord desires of him. One who loves Krsna will give Him whatever He wants, and he avoids offering anything which is undesirable or unasked for. Thus, meat, fish and eggs should not be offered to Krsna. If He desired such things as offerings, He would have said so. Instead He clearly requests that a leaf, fruit, flowers and water be given to Him, and He says of this offering, "I will accept it." Therefore, we should understand that He will not accept meat, fish and eggs. Vegetables, grains, fruits, milk and water are the proper foods for human beings and are prescribed by Lord Krsna Himself. Whatever else we eat cannot be offered to Him, since He will not accept it. Thus we cannot be acting on the level of loving devotion if we offer such foods. In the Third Chapter, verse thirteen, Sri Krsna explains that only the remains of sacrifice are purified and fit for consumption by those who are seeking advancement in life and release from the clutches of the material entanglement. Those who do not make an offering of their food, He says in the same verse, are said to be eating only sin. In other words, their every mouthful is simply deepening their involvement in the complexities of material nature. But preparing nice, simple vegetable dishes, offering them before the picture or Deity of Lord Krsna and bowing down and praying for Him to accept such a humble offering, enable one to advance steadily in life, to purify the body, and to create fine brain tissues which will lead to clear thinking. Above all, the offering should be made with an attitude of love. Krsna has no need of food, since He already possesses everything that be, yet He will accept the offering of one who desires to please Him in that way. The important element, in preparation, in serving and in offering, is to act with love for Krsna. The impersonalist philosophers, who wish to maintain that the Absolute Truth is without senses, cannot comprehend this verse of Bhagavad-gita. To them, it is either a metaphor or proof of the mundane character of Krsna, the speaker of the Gita. But, in actuality, Krsna, the Supreme Godhead, has senses, and it is stated that His senses are interchangeable; in other words, one sense can perform the function of any other. This is what it means to say that Krsna is absolute. Lacking senses, He could hardly be considered full in all opulences. In the Seventh Chapter, Krsna has explained that He impregnates the living entities into material nature. This is done by His looking upon material nature. And so in this instance, Krsna's hearing the devotee's words of love in offering foodstuffs is wholly identical with His eating and actually tasting. This point should be emphasized: because of His absolute position, His hearing is wholly identical with His eating and tasting. Only the devotee, who accepts Krsna as He describes Himself, without interpretation, can understand that the Supreme Absolute Truth can eat food and enjoy it. Bg. 9.26 HDGACBSP I understand that onions and garlic are not mentioned in this purport, and that is what you were specifically inquiring about. There is one story in the Puranas (not sure where exactly) that explains why we don't use them. I will try to repeat what I was told for you. In previous yugas the brahmanas performed animal sacrifice by killing a cow and then later rejuvenating the body of the dead animal into a new calf, to illustrate the efficacy of Vedic mantras. One time the wife of one of the brahmanas involved in such a yajna was pregnant. She was told that if she ever experienced hunger pangs that it would aversely affect her unborn child. Seeing no other source of food immediately at hand, she mistakenly cut a portion of flesh,blood and bone from the sacrificial animal which was lying dead. She then realized it was foolish to consume flesh,blood and bone and discarded the portion of the dead cow she had taken. When the brahmanas assembled and chanted the vedic mantras to revive the dead animal they noticed that its stomach was not symmetrical, and that a portion of the original cow was missing. By the power of their mantras that portion also took life and was then assimilated by the earth planet where it was discarded by the brahmanas wife. The flesh became garlic, the bone onion (or vice versa, not certain) and the blood became carrots. Another version of the same story says that the brahmanas used onions, garlic and carrots to replace the missing portion of the original animal so they could complete the yagna. Anyway, Gaudiya Vaisnavas generally don't use any of these items in cooking an offering for Sri Krsna. The principle of how to please the Supreme Lord is given in Bg. The practical application of how to follow that principle is taught by the example and more detailed instructions of the guru to his disciples. My siksa guru explained that onions contain 21 different kinds of poison. Onions and garlic are simply not in the mode of goodness, and therefore we don't use them.Asofateda (hing) is a suitable substitute. Most devotees avoid mushrooms because of how they are grown commercially and the fact that they are some kind of a fungus. You wanted a quote from shastra, so keep this in mind. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura wrote: "What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard." If the spiritual masters in our guru parampara have instructed not to use onions, garlic and other items in an offering to Lord Krsna then best we accept their words and have simple hearted faith that what they have said is as good as the sruti, smrti and pancharatra. I hope that answers your question.