Jagat

(1) Who said anywhere that Bhaktivinoda ever rejected his guru in any way? Can you show me a place where Siddhanta Saraswati himself said that? Obviously some people are saying it, but show me some kind of evidence. On the other hand, Lalita Prasad Thakur, Bhaktivinoda's own son and initiated disciple, testified that Bhaktivinoda was true to his commitment to the end. (2) As to your other point as to what constitutes "true" commitment to the guru, this is a question I have debated many times. To me, this is a complex matter dealing with essentials and peripherals. What teaching is which is the crux of the matter. You may insist on a certain orthodox understanding and the scope of your essential, indispensible truths may be quite different from mine. Obviously, my manner of honoring Srila Prabhupada is different from those in Iskcon, or the Ritviks, or even the Gaudiya Maths. The latter accept the possibility of receiving instruction from other sources besides Prabhupada. I took initiation from Lalita Prasad Thakur, which places me in a different position. I did so because I determined at that time that the practices of raganuga bhakti reflected more truly the traditions of Rupa Goswami. Now that my guru has disappeared, it is hard to know whether he would have agreed with the other choices I have made in life. He may well have been quite unhappy. I beg his indulgence and mercy. At any rate, Mahaprabhu sent me to him as a way of honoring the choices he made... On another tack, I believe that my recent campaign against anti-semitism is a way that I am honoring Srila Prabhupada and all the different Vaishnava institutions for which his trip across the ocean is the one and only root cause. I cannot tolerate that the religion of love taught by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and preached in the West by Srila Prabhupada should become the tool of politically suspect interest groups. I believe this would dishonor Srila Prabhupada more than anything else that has happened to this movement. The Gaudiya Grantha Mandir (www.granthamandira.org) is ultimately a service to Srila Prabhupada and all his disciples. Even the debates I engage in with Srila Prabhupada's disciples is a service to them. But enough about me. I'll leave you to debate over Urmila Devi and her divorce.

(1) Who said anywhere that Bhaktivinoda ever rejected his guru in any way? Can you show me a place where Siddhanta Saraswati himself said that? Obviously some people are saying it, but show me some kind of evidence. On the other hand, Lalita Prasad Thakur, Bhaktivinoda's own son and initiated disciple, testified that Bhaktivinoda was true to his commitment to the end. (2) As to your other point as to what constitutes "true" commitment to the guru, this is a question I have debated many times. To me, this is a complex matter dealing with essentials and peripherals. What teaching is which is the crux of the matter. You may insist on a certain orthodox understanding and the scope of your essential, indispensible truths may be quite different from mine. Obviously, my manner of honoring Srila Prabhupada is different from those in Iskcon, or the Ritviks, or even the Gaudiya Maths. The latter accept the possibility of receiving instruction from other sources besides Prabhupada. I took initiation from Lalita Prasad Thakur, which places me in a different position. I did so because I determined at that time that the practices of raganuga bhakti reflected more truly the traditions of Rupa Goswami. Now that my guru has disappeared, it is hard to know whether he would have agreed with the other choices I have made in life. He may well have been quite unhappy. I beg his indulgence and mercy. At any rate, Mahaprabhu sent me to him as a way of honoring the choices he made... On another tack, I believe that my recent campaign against anti-semitism is a way that I am honoring Srila Prabhupada and all the different Vaishnava institutions for which his trip across the ocean is the one and only root cause. I cannot tolerate that the religion of love taught by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and preached in the West by Srila Prabhupada should become the tool of politically suspect interest groups. I believe this would dishonor Srila Prabhupada more than anything else that has happened to this movement. The Gaudiya Grantha Mandir (www.granthamandira.org) is ultimately a service to Srila Prabhupada and all his disciples. Even the debates I engage in with Srila Prabhupada's disciples is a service to them. But enough about me. I'll leave you to debate over Urmila Devi and her divorce.

...not in all respects, mind you. Maybe only in one little thing...

...not in all respects, mind you. Maybe only in one little thing...

(1) Alpamedhasa is not alpamedhasa. (2) You may characterize me as Prabhupada's disciple, but with an asterisk. I accept and honor Prabhupada's role in bringing me to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the Divine Couple Radha and Krishna, and I continue to feel loyalty to this movement. However, I do not believe that loyalty is static. I believe it requires active and personal interaction with one's faith and tradition. True loyalty is not blind obedience. This is something that is regularly confused everywhere, understandably so and I don't blame anyone for doing so. After 9/11, anyone who questioned the U.S.'s role in the world or its reactions was immediately suspected of hating America. Where emotion reigns, reason is suspect. It is my feeling that loyalty to the essence of what Prabhupada wanted us to achieve--true consciousness of Krishna--requires a lot more of us than fighting over legalistic arguments about succession. It requires more than protests of being more of a Prabhupadanuga than the next guy. Here is the heresy, but dig it, as they say: Becoming a true student means surpassing the teacher. Be humble, but don't be a wimp. (3) Where Bipin Bihari Goswami is concerned, we have numerous records of his approval of his guru, no written evidence of the contrary. Bhaktivinoda Thakur's nitya-siddha identity as Kamala Manjari is accepted everywhere. This was given to him in initiation by Bipin Bihari Goswami. Is there any indication that he rejected this? Or his mantra? Please don't expect me to follow up on this discussion about Bipin Bihari Goswami. I have discussed it to death and have written articles on the subject, which you can read on my website. In view of what I have just said above, however, can we accept that Bhaktivinoda Thakur superseded his guru without rejecting him?

(1) Alpamedhasa is not alpamedhasa. (2) You may characterize me as Prabhupada's disciple, but with an asterisk. I accept and honor Prabhupada's role in bringing me to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the Divine Couple Radha and Krishna, and I continue to feel loyalty to this movement. However, I do not believe that loyalty is static. I believe it requires active and personal interaction with one's faith and tradition. True loyalty is not blind obedience. This is something that is regularly confused everywhere, understandably so and I don't blame anyone for doing so. After 9/11, anyone who questioned the U.S.'s role in the world or its reactions was immediately suspected of hating America. Where emotion reigns, reason is suspect. It is my feeling that loyalty to the essence of what Prabhupada wanted us to achieve--true consciousness of Krishna--requires a lot more of us than fighting over legalistic arguments about succession. It requires more than protests of being more of a Prabhupadanuga than the next guy. Here is the heresy, but dig it, as they say: Becoming a true student means surpassing the teacher. Be humble, but don't be a wimp. (3) Where Bipin Bihari Goswami is concerned, we have numerous records of his approval of his guru, no written evidence of the contrary. Bhaktivinoda Thakur's nitya-siddha identity as Kamala Manjari is accepted everywhere. This was given to him in initiation by Bipin Bihari Goswami. Is there any indication that he rejected this? Or his mantra? Please don't expect me to follow up on this discussion about Bipin Bihari Goswami. I have discussed it to death and have written articles on the subject, which you can read on my website. In view of what I have just said above, however, can we accept that Bhaktivinoda Thakur superseded his guru without rejecting him?

<h3>Your teeth don't scare us</h3> Cancun was no failure. It showed the richest countries that developing nations have fangs, too. The new power blocs could lead to a WTO with more bite, says trade guru DAVID WOODS Thursday, September 18, 2003 - Globe&Mail Alec Erwin, South Africa's Trade Minister and probably the developing world's most experienced ministerial-level trade negotiator, said it well: "We have seen a change in the quality and nature of negotiations between developing and developed countries." He was referring to Sunday's collapse of the World Trade Organization talks in Cancun, Mexico, and in particular, to the decisive emergence of a group of developing countries -- known as the G21 -- that shook the rich nations' trade negotiators to the point of near panic. The sight of senior political leaders from China, Brazil, India and South Africa sitting together on a press conference platform in Cancun was sobering: The G21 nations represent more than half of humanity and most of the world's farmers. They also happen to be the future. Their commercial interests and policy approaches to development may differ, but they stood together and made the WTO take their proposals on agricultural trade negotiations as seriously as it had already taken the joint proposal of the United States and European Union. They may not act jointly in the future. But they demonstrated, last week, what has been on everyone's mind for years: The dominance of the U.S., EU, Canada and Japan in international economic affairs cannot remain unchallenged. The accession of China to the WTO in 2001 was the turning point. The American response -- political, congressional and business leaders in unison -- was as uncouth as ever: "We know where the ministers of countries daring to associate with the G21 live and we shall be paying them a call." Europe was subtler, but not much. The emergence of the G21 was not the only power play in Cancun. Indeed, the conference collapsed when the "ACP" (African, Caribbean and Pacific countries) group refused a green light to negotiations on the new issues on the Doha agenda. These issues -- investment, competition policy, government procurement and trade facilitation -- would all benefit countries seeking to find a place in the global economy. But the poorest countries do not trust the industrial powers -- principally Europe and Japan -- that insisted on the inclusion of these dossiers in Doha. And agreements could carry significant political, institutional and economic costs. Poor countries would therefore need a lot of support to implement them. And they're not confident that they would get that support. After all, this is supposed to be the Doha Development Agenda. In the two years since it was launched, the industrial nations have scurried away from any development commitment that would deliver real commercial benefit to poor countries but entail political discomfort at home. Nowhere is that more the case than in agriculture. Confidence and trust are scarce commodities in the WTO at present. Ask the four west and central African countries whose presidents got together to present a proposal on their one export commodity, cotton. They called for trade-distorting subsidies in the U.S., EU and China to be eliminated and, in the interim, their farmers to be offered some compensation for the exports foregone because of collapsing world cotton prices. What they got for their WTO commitment was a text -- bearing all the signs of having been drafted in Washington -- essentially suggesting that Africa stop growing cotton! True, finding consensus among 148 countries is bound to be difficult. As the meeting folded, U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick and EU Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy both lashed out at the antique negotiating structures of the WTO. They were probably right. Certainly the habits, relationships and procedures -- as well as the delegate structures -- in Geneva, where the WTO is based, are far from optimal. In the face of endless posturing by diplomats in Geneva, ministers are constantly left to sort out unmanageable agendas in just a few days. Despite the lessons of the Seattle debacle in 1999, within a few months the Geneva-based ambassadors had ensured their old and favoured practices would remain untouched. After Cancun, it is to be hoped that genuine institutional reform will be back on the agenda. In the meantime, how will the major traders react to the failure of the conference, and the emergence of a stronger and better-organized developing-country voice? Washington and Brussels' initial, knee-jerk response was to imply that if other WTO members were not prepared to play the game the way the big boys expect, then they would take their ball and play elsewhere. "Elsewhere" means, of course, the regional and bilateral game. Is it a hollow threat? Well, there is nothing to stop Washington responding to the many developing countries clamouring for favourable access to the U.S. market. However, in global trade terms, these would be pinpricks. The big prize is the Free Trade Area of the Americas -- and that means facing precisely the same countries that stood tough in Cancun, notably Brazil. The demands will be the same: agriculture and U.S. anti-dumping rules. The response will be just as difficult -- perhaps more so. Naturally, there are other options. Both the U.S. and EU may be tempted by bilateral deals or limited regional deals in Asia. But getting from temptation to workable, concrete reality is hard. A transatlantic trade agreement between the two might be doable, but the political fallout from creating just one more rich-man's club would be immense. In any event, agriculture would remain the Achilles heel. Ultimately, everyone must make the WTO deliver again -- for developing countries and agricultural exporters. That means the EU reforming its support for its farm sector; the U.S. being ready to wind back the subsidies Congress voted last year; Japan coming out of the shadows on access to the rice market -- and even Canada doing some work in its protected farm sectors. At the same time, if poorer countries want some value out of their WTO membership, they must accept that trade negotiations are not one-way streets. The new balance of power is to be welcomed, but if it leads to immovable, absolutist positions then it will be self-defeating. Given all that, the Doha round can be a big success. The perspective after Cancun may offer the prospect of a more valuable deal than was envisaged before. But we may have to wait until well after the U.S. presidential election. That's no disaster; the time can be well-used. David Woods, the managing director of World Trade Agenda Consultants, spent 13 years as director of information at the GATT and the World Trade Organization.

Mes excuses, Aprakrita Prabhu. Je croyais, à distance, que vous étiez liés. Pardonnez-moi mon erreur. Jagat

Dear VNN staff, Over the years, I have seen many valuable articles published on your site. I have sometimes called attention to these articles when others complain about your editorial policies. I have also been disappointed by some of the articles you've published. However, Srivatsa Dasa's "Repetition of History" hits a new low. At first I ignored it because it was so poorly written. The author didn't really give a clear indication of what the article's point is, except for an allusion in the title to similarities between Kamsa's and Herod's atrocities. The bulk of the article, though, seems to be disjointed antisemitic drivel, not even as well written or sharply focused as the nonsense I have gotten from a couple of my students over the past 15 years of teaching writing in college. I recently got the impression that your standards had been raised somewhat; apparently I was mistaken. Both the content and style of this article reflect poorly on the community of vaishnavas. The kind of hatred based on bodily designation expressed by this article is antithetical to the teachings of our acharyas. The writing is so poor and full of fragments that if one of my students submitted it to me, I'd return it without bothering to grade it. I'm mortified to think that folks with no idea of Krishna consciousness will be directed to VNN by a search and come across this nonsense. I hope you'll heed what I guess must be a flurry of protests (I'd hope a blizzard) and refuse to publish such tripe ever again. Your discouraged servant, Babhru das

Dear VNN staff, Over the years, I have seen many valuable articles published on your site. I have sometimes called attention to these articles when others complain about your editorial policies. I have also been disappointed by some of the articles you've published. However, Srivatsa Dasa's "Repetition of History" hits a new low. At first I ignored it because it was so poorly written. The author didn't really give a clear indication of what the article's point is, except for an allusion in the title to similarities between Kamsa's and Herod's atrocities. The bulk of the article, though, seems to be disjointed antisemitic drivel, not even as well written or sharply focused as the nonsense I have gotten from a couple of my students over the past 15 years of teaching writing in college. I recently got the impression that your standards had been raised somewhat; apparently I was mistaken. Both the content and style of this article reflect poorly on the community of vaishnavas. The kind of hatred based on bodily designation expressed by this article is antithetical to the teachings of our acharyas. The writing is so poor and full of fragments that if one of my students submitted it to me, I'd return it without bothering to grade it. I'm mortified to think that folks with no idea of Krishna consciousness will be directed to VNN by a search and come across this nonsense. I hope you'll heed what I guess must be a flurry of protests (I'd hope a blizzard) and refuse to publish such tripe ever again. Your discouraged servant, Babhru das

Dear VNN, Swami Tripurari, the Sanga Staff and the residents of Audarya, would like to join with those protesting the blatantly anti-Semitic editorials that were recently published on your website. Editorials like those are the bread of life for racists, skinheads, and neo-nazis but have nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaisnavism, the path of absolute love. Therefore we urge you to desist from publishing any more anti-Semitic articles, and to remove those already posted on your site. Those tasteless articles left us speechless but Brzezinski found exactly the right words to say about them. We at Sanga urge you to post his article on the VNN website. http://www.chakra.org/discussions/LetSep16_03.html Sincerely, Brahma Das Sangaeditor

Dear VNN, Swami Tripurari, the Sanga Staff and the residents of Audarya, would like to join with those protesting the blatantly anti-Semitic editorials that were recently published on your website. Editorials like those are the bread of life for racists, skinheads, and neo-nazis but have nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaisnavism, the path of absolute love. Therefore we urge you to desist from publishing any more anti-Semitic articles, and to remove those already posted on your site. Those tasteless articles left us speechless but Brzezinski found exactly the right words to say about them. We at Sanga urge you to post his article on the VNN website. http://www.chakra.org/discussions/LetSep16_03.html Sincerely, Brahma Das Sangaeditor

Dear Krparama Prabhu, I am very sorry that you have not taken my requests to heart. It is unfortunate that you cannot see the potential for damage that articles like those written by Srivatsa may have on the movement. A few senior devotees have taken the time to write and let you know what they think. Take heed of their requests and advice; they know of the dangers and hurt that this kind of thing can lead to. Fortunately, Srivatsa's articles were so badly written that hardly anyone could understand them anyway. Not exactly edifying for VNN, but there you have it. I still ask you to remove them. But even more important, please, please don't do it again. I cannot let you sully the name of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with documents whose only goal is to spread hate instead of love. Your servant, Jagadananda Das.

Dear Krparama Prabhu, I am very sorry that you have not taken my requests to heart. It is unfortunate that you cannot see the potential for damage that articles like those written by Srivatsa may have on the movement. A few senior devotees have taken the time to write and let you know what they think. Take heed of their requests and advice; they know of the dangers and hurt that this kind of thing can lead to. Fortunately, Srivatsa's articles were so badly written that hardly anyone could understand them anyway. Not exactly edifying for VNN, but there you have it. I still ask you to remove them. But even more important, please, please don't do it again. I cannot let you sully the name of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with documents whose only goal is to spread hate instead of love. Your servant, Jagadananda Das.

Dear Prabhus, I would like to thank all those who recognized the importance of this issue and wrote to VNN. I don't know how those devotees have reacted, but I am leaving it in Krishna's hands. I have tried to sensitize you to the importance of this specific situation. Please study the works of Kundali Das, who is about the only insider who has really tried to tell devotees how their "Krishna consciousness" is so often a cloak of hypocrisy and how big a job self-realization really is. Those who submerge themselves in pseudoscience and conspiracy theories of various sorts have really lost their direction. It's an unfortunate situation that so many devotees have lost their way like this. The temptation is there to fall into despair, but I will turn to more elevating things. I beg the indulgence of anyone I may have obfuscated in all this. Your servant, Jagadananda Das.

Dear Prabhus, I would like to thank all those who recognized the importance of this issue and wrote to VNN. I don't know how those devotees have reacted, but I am leaving it in Krishna's hands. I have tried to sensitize you to the importance of this specific situation. Please study the works of Kundali Das, who is about the only insider who has really tried to tell devotees how their "Krishna consciousness" is so often a cloak of hypocrisy and how big a job self-realization really is. Those who submerge themselves in pseudoscience and conspiracy theories of various sorts have really lost their direction. It's an unfortunate situation that so many devotees have lost their way like this. The temptation is there to fall into despair, but I will turn to more elevating things. I beg the indulgence of anyone I may have obfuscated in all this. Your servant, Jagadananda Das.

Devotee quality. Me not devotee.

Devotee quality. Me not devotee.

Making the e-mail rounds: "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

There are perhaps times when a war is the pure and good against the sinful and evil. But it is rarely the case. Humans succumb to pressures and these form their character. They become hardened or softened and act accordingly. Jews were chased or escaped from Europe where persecutions came as regularly as hurricanes in the Caribbean. They said, never again. This has made them hard, but can we not at least remember their history and be humble before it? That's why I said Islam is a harder nut. People like Edward Said cry "Orientalism" and many Hindus have adopted the same cry. But finding an identity and maturity as a people is a complex affair. Islam is too busy defining itself through uncompromising wars of attrition instead of through synthesis and respect for others. It's too easy to identify everyone as a Satan. Everyone is acting in their self-interest. That is neither good nor bad; it's just the way it is. The problem in Israel would not be half as bad if there had been some serious attempt, anywhere over the past 60 years, to find the juste milieu. The hard line rules on both sides in Palestine. Sometimes self-interest comes in giving concessions. That's it. I've said all I have to say.

There are perhaps times when a war is the pure and good against the sinful and evil. But it is rarely the case. Humans succumb to pressures and these form their character. They become hardened or softened and act accordingly. Jews were chased or escaped from Europe where persecutions came as regularly as hurricanes in the Caribbean. They said, never again. This has made them hard, but can we not at least remember their history and be humble before it? That's why I said Islam is a harder nut. People like Edward Said cry "Orientalism" and many Hindus have adopted the same cry. But finding an identity and maturity as a people is a complex affair. Islam is too busy defining itself through uncompromising wars of attrition instead of through synthesis and respect for others. It's too easy to identify everyone as a Satan. Everyone is acting in their self-interest. That is neither good nor bad; it's just the way it is. The problem in Israel would not be half as bad if there had been some serious attempt, anywhere over the past 60 years, to find the juste milieu. The hard line rules on both sides in Palestine. Sometimes self-interest comes in giving concessions. That's it. I've said all I have to say.

It is complex, Mahax. You are perfectly right and I think my post above was sufficiently nuanced. Just as some Jews turn anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism (anti-Jew, if you will) there are others who do in fact piggback antisemitism onto anti-Zionism. That is what Srivatsa was trying to do, and I find both attitudes equally abhorrent. The only solution in Palestine will come when Jews and Palestinians agree to see each other as human beings and recognize each other's needs and work for each other's uplift. But that is not what is happening. I don't really want to discuss the Palestinian issue. It's too complex for me, and it's too easy for me in my armchair to propose solutions. But if the Israelis succeed in pushing the Palestinians into the desert for the sake of an Eretz Israel, it will be a crime against humanity. The effort that is going on to accomplish that is already a crime. But as I intimated, our forefathers have a percentage in that crime. We exported our "problem" and gave it to the Muslims. And even now, the U.S. is participating in it by supporting Israel rather than calling it to account.

It is complex, Mahax. You are perfectly right and I think my post above was sufficiently nuanced. Just as some Jews turn anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism (anti-Jew, if you will) there are others who do in fact piggback antisemitism onto anti-Zionism. That is what Srivatsa was trying to do, and I find both attitudes equally abhorrent. The only solution in Palestine will come when Jews and Palestinians agree to see each other as human beings and recognize each other's needs and work for each other's uplift. But that is not what is happening. I don't really want to discuss the Palestinian issue. It's too complex for me, and it's too easy for me in my armchair to propose solutions. But if the Israelis succeed in pushing the Palestinians into the desert for the sake of an Eretz Israel, it will be a crime against humanity. The effort that is going on to accomplish that is already a crime. But as I intimated, our forefathers have a percentage in that crime. We exported our "problem" and gave it to the Muslims. And even now, the U.S. is participating in it by supporting Israel rather than calling it to account.

Dear VNN staff, I was directed to an article written by Srivatsa Dasa entitled 'Repetition of History' by my friend Jagadananda Dasa. I am appalled that you would publish such an obviously racist article on your web site. I find it disgusting to say the least to have the good name of Sriman Mahaprabhu associated with such hate and racial slander. I suggest that you rethink your editorial policy. I also highly recommend that you remove the offensive article from your web site and issue a formal apology distancing yourselves from such ideas. Your concerned servant, Audarya-lila dasa

Dear VNN staff, I was directed to an article written by Srivatsa Dasa entitled 'Repetition of History' by my friend Jagadananda Dasa. I am appalled that you would publish such an obviously racist article on your web site. I find it disgusting to say the least to have the good name of Sriman Mahaprabhu associated with such hate and racial slander. I suggest that you rethink your editorial policy. I also highly recommend that you remove the offensive article from your web site and issue a formal apology distancing yourselves from such ideas. Your concerned servant, Audarya-lila dasa