andy108

Exhibit: "endearing himself to a demographic who he has identified as being a target market"

 

Exhibit: "they will die struggling to keep a strangle hold on the innocents in the Iskcon rank and file, and any other innocent seeker"

 

Exhibit: "I scoured the internet for years and read all I could from Srila Prabhupada alone."

 

Exhibit: "brought me to a temple or two for Sunday feast, and explained the corruption scenario as he knew it."

 

Exhibit: "I traveled to many temples and farm communities, and lived at a few. I participated ... as a ghost but the extreme arrogance of the "leaders", and the abuse their victims tolerated was beyond my capacity ... I can say I was the most mature and human person everywhere I went."

 

Exhibit: "I have no individual potency to start a movement on my own."

 

Exhibit: "... I am certain I could help to run a bonafide Sankirtana program via the training I have picked up little by little during my infiltrations ..."

 

Exhibit: "Nevermind infusing a locality with a broad spectrum of Vaisnava culture."

 

Exhibit: "So all I have left is to try to pick these usurpers off, philisophically, exposing their true agendas, one at a time. I find out who those people are on the internet. The ones who have any link, any influence over Iskcon or those interested in Iskcon. The ones who speculate themselves into some position of authority . . ."

 

Exhibit: "It keeps me learning the philosophy and able to defend the truth. ... and wards off my sense of impotence. And also exposes these rascals ..."

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Forest Gump lives!

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

NEWS FLASH:

This stuff is so old --they've built and worn down and re-built football stadiums in the time it has taken you to get up to speed on these topics. Maybe you can save some people in Rwanda; Cambodia; Thailand; Aids Wards; South Africa; Congo; Narco-traffic Wars on the Rio-Grand; how about the droughts; alternative energy sources --Oh how you lament because you can't fit in at any ashram any where you go --you can't even make your own way?

PS: If it is posted on the SUN --I discard. But that is my opinion.

Gee, how kind of you to pick my points out of context and line them up so it looks like I am a confused contradictory hypocrite.

Does that make you feel better about your own impotence?

To become guilty of letting it all happen in the name of Prabhupada. There is no other way than to rescue ISKCON for many devotees. On the other hand, nobody seems to become a Vaishnava by watching this scenario.

I just figured if enough people like me, and others would expose these creeps, it might wake up some insiders with some clout, generate some public scorn and activism, inspire the cheated to take back their manhood, or some combination of factors which would lead to a coup at at least ONE temple, and maybe those people would contact those who were able to see through the charade and articulate the truth and ask them if they wanted to be part of the new program.

That would be nice.

I am no Srila Prabhupada. There is no ignorant untouched western world where I can wander to, sit beneath a tree chanting, and potentially instruct others with my unparalleled lexicon of Gaudiya scriptural knowledge, artistic and culinary abililties, business acumen, and pure devotion.

America is the Alamo for me. Unless I get empowered to buy a piece of land with structures and a healthy budget, I have to try to reclaim my Guru's stolen property and funds or die trying. That includes flaying and slaying (through philisophical debate) all Prabhupada minimizers and usurpers.

Please show me anywhere in what I posted where I said anything about neglecting to practice sadhana as best one can?

 

You don't have to accuse me of saying something I never said.

For your short memory.

After posting a nice lecture and hoping to stimulate discussion on sadhana and nitya siddhas which were mentioned on another thread, you said the following.

How come kripa-siddha always gets ignored?

Fact is, a western devotee chanting 16 measly rounds a day and struggling to meet the minimum standard has NO CHANCE of becoming sadhana-siddha.

 

Only an arrogant disciple would ever think he can attain perfection via sadhana-siddha.

To which I replied.

Is it truly arrogant to expect that if a Guru tells you to follow the rules and regs of sadhana, and that you will acheive the perfection of falling in Love with Krsna that it could happen as the Guru suggests?

 

Are you sure about that?

 

It seems to me that a part of Guru's Krpa is to purify such a sincere devotee chanting the # of (measly) rounds prescribed by the Guru and struggling to meet the minimum standards. To purify him of any impediments so he can advance in sadhana and let it take its course.

 

To which you replied.

Maybe you didn't read close enough?

Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami stressed krpa-siddhi.

 

Maybe you don't agree with Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami?

 

Anyone so proud of themselves to think they can attain perfection with their lame attempts at sadhana is only fooling themselves.

And I asked you again

I see you ignored my question. If your Guru and Acarya tells me it will happen that way, why does it mean I am proud of myself if I believe him?

And that I would be fooling myself to believe it possible.

But then added for harmony sake.

Anyway, I don't see being able to acheive perfection in Sadhana without mercy. For the sake of harmony we can say that Sadhana-siddha is a form of manifestation of Krpa-siddha, but Krpa-siddha can occur without sadhana.

So I was not accusing you of something you never said. You said what you said, and it seemed unnecessary, indefensible, and against what Srila Prabhupada offers on the matter.

So when you end saying..

My point was that even with our best effort at sadhana we are still going to need guru kripa to attain perfection.

To that I reply, why didn't you just say that instead of getting all up in the ol grill? And then claiming such innocence?

I thought you passed the troll baton?

If you can't be more temperate why toss your frustrated aspersions into an honest innocent thread? And you think I won't engage you on it? You should know me better by now. No offense, but if you want to toss your scat around, do it somewhere else please.

Maybe you didn't read close enough?

Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami stressed krpa-siddhi.

 

Maybe you don't agree with Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami?

 

Anyone so proud of themselves to think they can attain perfection with their lame attempts at sadhana is only fooling themselves.

 

Without krpa-siddhi nobody gets out alive.

I see you ignored my question. If your Guru and Acarya tells me it will happen that way, why does it mean I am proud of myself if I believe him?

And that I would be fooling myself to believe it possible. Are you off your meds today?

How about this question.

How long would it take the beginner following the Sadhana of first reading and understanding Bhagavad Gita as it is, and second Srimad Bhagavatam, 1-10, in order, before hearing the opinion of Krsna Das Kaviraja? And he only mentions it ONCE in the entire CC. And Srila Prabhupada's purport describes that KDK is stressing it IN THAT VERSE.

In Vaiṣṇava philosophy there are three ways for perfection-namely, sādhana-siddha, perfection attained by executing devotional service according to the rules and regulations; nitya-siddha, eternal perfection attained by never forgetting Kṛṣṇa at any time; and kṛpā-siddha, perfection attained by the mercy of the spiritual master or another Vaiṣṇava. Kavirāja Gosvāmī here stresses kṛpā-siddha, perfection by the mercy of superior authorities.

Srila Prabhupada did not stress it so often, though he did mention it was more favorable once in a conversation. As a matter of fact here is his warning about the very pitfalls I described in my last post that you blew off so readily.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.7 -- Mayapur, February 27, 1977

Just like in our country, perhaps you know, there was a poet, Rabindranath Tagore. He got many distinction from the Oxford University. He got... He never went to school but he got the title "doctor,Doctor Rabindranath Tagore." And if you think that "I shall also get doctorate without going to school," that is foolishness. That is special. Similarly, don't try to imitate. Follow the general course, sādhana-siddhi. The regulative principles you must follow as instructed in the śāstra. Therefore there are so many śāstras. And guru is guide. We must always... Even if you are nitya-siddha or kṛpa-siddha, you should not neglect the general regulative principle.

Anyway, I don't see being able to acheive perfection in Sadhana without mercy. For the sake of harmony we can say that Sadhana-siddha is a form of manifestation of Krpa-siddha, but Krpa-siddha can occur without sadhana. I wonder if there are any instances in the scriptures of that happening? I will have to look it up.

Here are some.

But there are other devotees, who may not have undergone all the required details of devotional service but who, by the special mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa—the spiritual master and the Supreme Personality of Godhead—have immediately attained the perfection of pure devotional service. Examples of such devotees are the yajña-patnīs, Mahārāja Bali and Śukadeva Gosvāmī. The yajña-patnīs were the wives of ordinary brāhmaṇas engaged in fruitive activities. Although the brāhmaṇas were very learned and advanced in Vedic knowledge, they could not achieve the mercy of Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, whereas their wives achieved complete perfection in devotional service, despite their being women. Similarly, Vairocani, Bali Mahārāja, received the mercy of Prahlāda Mahārāja, and by Prahlāda Mahārāja’s mercy he also received the mercy of Lord Viṣṇu, who appeared before him as a brahmacārī beggar. Thus Bali Mahārāja became a kṛpā-siddha because of the special mercy of both guru and Kṛṣṇa.

Well whatever his past position was it appears he has had an epiphany on the subject.

Krsna-Kirti and I go way back, I have tracked his activities for a long time. He is a monster of a speculative "reformer" a profound intellectual sophist, and will cuddle up with any of the cheaters if it serves his purpose of being heard and taken seriously. Another guy who was way to "smart" from the beginning. His epiphany is nothing more than a carefully calculated strategy at endearing himself to a demographic who he has identified as being a target market to his social reform ideas.

People are allowed to change. Why not give the man the benefit of the doubt.

There is no doubt in my mind as to his motivation, as there is none regarding Hrydayananda. They holy name is purifying them. Their sadhana is deviant, they are not Krpa siddhi, at this rate they will die struggling to keep a strangle hold on the innocents in the Iskcon rank and file, and any other innocent seeker who crosses their path.

The only change I condone is to actually accept Srila Prabhupada as the Acarya of Iskcon, not a move to the right of left concerning popular social policies in the name of reform and pleasing Prabhupada.

Anyway what does his decision have to do with Iskcon?

This question gets to the heart of the matter, and why I even give a rat's ass what this guy says in public.

I came to Srila Prabhupada via a smart self-exiled fringy sadhu who shared Srila Prabhupada's BG and Bhagavatam with me. We met on the yoga/kirtana circuit. He had already given up on Iskcon, but brought me to a temple or two for Sunday feast, and explained the corruption scenario as he knew it. I was a generally responsible, self-initiating, self employed and adventurous western man with some intellect.

I decided he couldn't possibly be right, that all of Iskcon proper was corrupted. I traveled to many temples and farm communities, and lived at a few. I participated and was humble as a ghost but the extreme arrogance of the "leaders", and the abuse their victims tolerated was beyond my capacity to tolerate in the name of getting along. It was a paradox that without false humility I can say I was the most mature and human person everywhere I went.

When I realized that there was no sane Daiva Varnasrama community engaged in Sankirtana Yajna it blew me away. NONE. When I realized I was one of a couple handfuls of people scattered to the 4 winds who was even willing to accept SP as Spiritual Master and among even less who willing to discuss his DVD instructions, it affected me more profoundly.

I scoured the internet for years and read all I could from Srila Prabhupada alone. Then I read what everyone else had to say. I attempted to contact just about anyone who was vocal, who claimed some authority in Iskcon, and speak with them reasonably. Just a hello, can we talk about Prabhupada's instructions? kind of thing. All I got were people trying to get me to come and clean their stool room for them, or telling me it was more important to listen to them than Prabhupada. Iskconers and Reformers alike.

I have no individual potency to start a movement on my own. There are no Bhaktas of like mind getting together for occasional prasadam or kirtana. Nevermind infusing a locality with a broad spectrum of Vaisnava culture. And I am ambitious to be part of something more dynamic than my own worthless Bhajan Kutir in America.

If I had any one of Srila Prabhupada's properties under my control I am certain I could help to run a bonafide Sankirtana program via the training I have picked up little by little during my infiltrations over the years. I know just the devotees I would invite to join me. But alas, Srila Prabhupada and Krsna don't seem to agree or I would be there.

So all I have left is to try to pick these usurpers off, philisophically, exposing their true agendas, one at a time. I find out who those people are on the internet. The ones who have any link, any influence over Iskcon or those interested in Iskcon. The ones who speculate themselves into some position of authority, who minimize Srila Prabhupada either directly or by supporting his Sinister Detractors and Mis-representatives.

I try to make every shot count. It keeps me learning the philosophy and able to defend the truth. While I bide my time. It helps purify my frustration and anger and wards off my sense of impotence. And also exposes these rascals for what they are.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.8 -- Hawaii, March 21, 1969

When devotee is insulted, we should be very much angry. But if somebody insults me, I don't be angry. "All right, he insulted. I tolerate." But when you speak against God, when you say, "I am God," I shall beat you with shoes. I shall be so much angry. You see. That should be attitude of the devotee also. As God is angry for his devotee, similarly, our anger should be also utilized for God. Just try to understand. It is not that we shall not be angry. Yes, we shall be angry, but in suitable place, where God is insulted. When a rascal is claiming that he is God and deceiving others, you must be very much angry, "You rascal, what you are doing?" Somebody may say, "Oh, you are devotee? Why you have become so angry?" Now, why not?

 

Reality is that we should better be praying for and thinking about kripa-siddha.

 

Only an arrogant disciple would ever think he can attain perfection via sadhana-siddha.

Is it truly arrogant to expect that if a Guru tells you to follow the rules and regs of sadhana, and that you will acheive the perfection of falling in Love with Krsna that it could happen as the Guru suggests?

Are you sure about that?

I personally believe that thinking about krpa siddha, or praying that we become perfect that way will not hasten it if it is to happen.

One one hand, it seems like asking for a short cut because one is lazy or not motivated. Isn't it the Guru's mercy that allows us to engage in the minimum standards he has given? It was the minimum after all.

We were instructed to engage in sadhana. That is known.

We are instructed to pay obeisances to the Spiritual Master 3 times a day and pray that he continues to be merciful to us, and that we are able to please him in order to advance in our service.

Should he wish to confer an immediate wholesale purification and infusion of the perfect ability to represent the Lord's will upon us is up to his prerogative.

If for some reason we are struggling at maintaining the minimum standards, it seems more appropriate to me to pray for the mercy to be able to meet the standards. Not to become an overnight perfected preaching mountain moving superstary.

Fact is, a western devotee chanting 16 measly rounds a day and struggling to meet the minimum standard has NO CHANCE of becoming sadhana-siddha.

Is that a fact?

It seems to me that a part of Guru's Krpa is to purify such a sincere devotee chanting the # of (measly) rounds prescribed by the Guru and struggling to meet the minimum standards. To purify him of any impediments so he can advance in sadhana and let it take its course.

Perhaps the fact that Krpa Siddhi is rarely mentioned reflects the realities of the importance of sadhana, the likelihood of sadhana being effective by Guru's mercy, and the dangers that focusing too much on the phenomenon of Krpa siddhi might pose to those who should be focused on their sadhana.

Just a thought.

It is all in here. Nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha, MahaBhagavata, Kanistha-Madhyama-Uttama adhikari, how they all relate, and how they are manifest through the particular sadhana Srila Prabhupada is giving to his disciples.

A masterpiece all encompassing lecture.

SB 7.9.4 Lecture Mayapura 1976

Dayānanda: (chants verse, etc.) "Translation: O king Yudhiṣṭhira, Prahlāda Mahārāja, the exalted devotee, although a little boy, accepted the words of Lord Brahmā and gradually proceeded towards Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, and immediately fell down to offer his respectful obeisances with folded hands.

Prabhupāda:

tatheti śanakai rājan

mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ

upetya bhuvi kāyena

nanāma vidhṛtāñjaliḥ

[sB 7.9.4]

So, Prahlāda Mahārāja, mahā-bhāgavata, uttama-adhikārī. There are three stages of devotional platform. First stage is called kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, second stage is called madhyama-adhikārī, and third stage, or topmost stage, is called uttama-adhikārī. So, he was only five years old, how he became uttama-adhikārī, on the topmost stage? He had no training. Still, he is addressed here by Narada Muni—Narada Muni was his guru—and still, he is describing Prahlāda Mahārāja as mahā-bhāgavata. That means even one is mahā-bhāgavata, he has to accept a guru. Narada Muni, his guru, he knows that "Prahlāda is my disciple, but he is mahā-bhāgavata." Not only that, before his birth, when he was within the womb of his mother...

His mother was attacked by the demigods, headed by Indra, and they were dragging her to their palace. Narada Muni met, said "What are you doing this? You are harassing one woman?No sir, we are not harassing, only we are taking her in our place to wait for the deliverance of the child. Then we shall kill him. Because he is born of atheist father, so he is another demon." Narada Muni said, "No, no, no, you are mistaken. He is not demon, he is mahā-bhāgavata." So in the beginning he was mahā-bhāgavata, since he was in within the womb of his mother. And later on he is mahā-bhāgavata. This is called nitya-siddha, eternally mahā-bhāgavata. Eternally mahā-bhāgavata never forgets Kṛṣṇa, in any circumstance. That is the sign of mahā-bhāgavata, nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja was put into so many trials when he was only a child, still he never forgot Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign of mahā-bhāgavata. In any circumstances.

It does not mean that because one is mahā-bhāgavata he should not be put into trials. He can be put into trials, because the material world is like that. The western country, they, Lord Jesus Christ, he was put into trials but he never forgot Kṛṣṇa. This is sign of mahā-bhāgavata, nitya-siddha.

gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe nitya-siddha kori 'māne

se jāy brajenda-nandana pāś

If one can understand nitya-siddha bhāgavata, then he immediately becomes eligible to go back to home, to back to godhead. This is the privilege of associating with mahā-bhāgavata. So our system is, (child crying—aside:) try and maintain (?). Evaṁ paramparā, to associate with the mahā-bhāgavata by words or by physical exposition (?). So mahā-bhāgavata arbhakaḥ. One may argue, arbhakaḥ means foolish child, who has no knowledge, he is called arbhakaḥ. How we can say mahā-bhāgavata? Arbhakaḥ, he has no knowledge. No. It is possible. Ahaituky apratihatā. Bhakti does not depend on age, or on advanced knowledge, or richness, or so many other things. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [sB 1.8.26]. To take birth in high family, aristocracy, and to become rich, to become beautiful, to become very learned scholar. These things are material assets, but spiritual life does not depend on these things. One can become spiritually very advanced even though he is poor, he is born in a low, low-grade family.

Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was born in Muhammadan family, but mahā-bhāgavata. There are so many examples. Not that because he was born in a Muhammadan family therefore he cannot. This Marchoism (?) is like that, but actually it is not. Ahaituky apratihatā. Bhakti is so purifying that any condition, any circumstances, one can become devotee.

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

[bg. 9.32]

Kṛṣṇa says. So everyone has got the potency to become mahā-bhāgavata, provided he tries. Sādhana-siddha and nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja is nitya-siddha and there are sādhana-siddhas, just like we are. We are trying to approach the topmost goal of life by bhajana, by sādhana. So anyone has got the potency to come to the stage of mahā-bhāgavata provided he follows the mahājana. You can become mahā-bhāgavata if you follow mahājana. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you follow the mahājana's path then everyone can become. Of course, it is not possible everyone to become mahā-bhāgavata, but there is possibility. Simply we have to become serious to follow the path of mahājana. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ. Simply by argument, you cannot make advancement. Simply by neti neti, or there are many other processes, mystic yoga process to become very austere, remain silent, mauna-vrata śruta-tapa, tapasya, education, austerity. None of them are the cause, but becoming bhakta, only devotional service, if one is fixed up, dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritaḥ bhajanty, dṛḍha-vratāḥ [bg. 9.13]. So we should be very much firmly fixed up, following the rules and regulation.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuṇṭha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here. So we have no information. This is only one-fourth manifestation of God's creation and the three-fourths creation of God is there. Not creation, it is everlasting. Just like in the prison house, if you go to the prison house, it does not mean that the whole state is there. It is only insignificant part of the state, and only the criminals they are put together.

So this material world, material world means so many planets you see, so many stars and planets, the sun planet, moon planet and loka, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [bg. 5.29]. This is one universe, and there are millions of universes. Altogether that is material world, and that is one part of creation. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat [bg. 10.42]. The jagat means this material world. So the whole material, ananta koṭi. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam [bs. 5.40]. This ananta-koṭi-brahmāṇḍa is only one-fourth manifestation of God's creation, and just imagine what is the other three-fourth, that is spiritual world. So the nitya-siddha mahā-bhāgavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. This is mahā-bhāgavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but mahā-bhāgavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Kṛṣṇa. This is mahā-bhāgavata nitya-siddha. And sādhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of mahā-bhāgavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become mahā-bhāgavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Kṛṣṇa personally comes, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [bg. 4.7]. This is glāniḥ, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become mahā-bhāgavata. So you cannot become a mahā-bhāgavata all of a sudden, but from kaniṣṭha-adhikārī,

arcāyām eva haraye

yaḥ pūjāṁ śraddhayehate

na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu

sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ

Prākṛtaḥ stage, so prakṛtaḥ stage means just like we are worshiping The Deity, but not only we shall worship Deity but we make advancement. What is that advancement? To become gradually a preacher. That is madhyama-adhikārī, second stage, preacher. Preacher means that,

īśvare tad-adhīneṣu

bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca

prema-maitrī-kṛpā upekṣāḥ

yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ

When you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious by worshiping the Deity regularly, as we have got prescription to rise early in the morning, offer maṅgala-ārati, then kīrtana, then class, in this way practicing, practicing. When you become advanced Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your natural tendency will be how to preach. So long you do not develop this tendency for preaching, simply remain in kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, you do not know how to deliver others, na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, you do not know how to receive elevated, one elevated devotee, you do not know how to do good to others. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not to keep one in the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, especially those who are born in India. He says

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

This is principle, para-upakāra, because everyone is suffering. So in the lower stage, everyone should take part very diligently in the worship of the Deity, śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-sṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārj anādau **. One should be engaged, everyone should be engaged, śrī-vigrahārādhanam, with Deity worship. What is that Deity worship? Sri, śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra **. To decorate the Deity very, very nicely, śṛṅgāra. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau, and to keep the temple, all through, very clean. This kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be fully engaged in these things, then he becomes gradually, I mean to say, elevated in the madhyama-adhikārī.

In the madhyama-adhikārī he can see four things. What is that? Four things means, first of all the Supreme Lord, īśvara, the controller, he can see. He can see means he understands, he appreciates, he can conceive, "Yes, the Supreme Lord is there". There is no more theoretical. So īśvara, and tad-adhīneṣu, and persons who have become devotee, he can understand, "Here is a devotee." Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu. Bāliśa means he knows imperson. They do not know what is God, what is to be done, they are called bāliśa. Just like children, arbhakaḥ, bāliśa. And then dviṣāt, envious. Just like you have experienced so many rascals, as soon as they hear of God, immediately they become agitated. They are called dviṣāt, envious, demons. So four things, God, His devotees, and the innocent person, and the demonic atheist. He can see, madhyama-adhikārī. And then he behaves with these four classes of men differently. What is that? Prema, for Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, how to increase love. That is first business, prema. And those who are devotees, to make friendship with them maitrī. Those who are higher than him, he should offer very respectful obeisances, those who are equal, treat them with nicely, and those who are lower then instruct them, bāliśeṣu. Those who are innocent, how to raise him in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is preaching. And dviṣatsu, upekṣaḥ, those who are atheist, don't associate with them. Don't associate with them. That is the madhyama-adhikārī.

And uttama-adhikārī, that is very rarely attained, this stage. Uttama-adhikārī, has only equal, one vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate. The uttama-adhikārī, he does not think that "He is envious," or "he is this," or "he is that," he sees that everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not to be imitated. That Prahlāda Mahārāja is like that. He did not know who is his enemy and who is friend. No, he did not know. He is uttama-adhikārī, mahā-bhāgavata. So this mahā-bhāgavata, this word is very important in this verse, mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ. Immediately, as soon as Brahmā requested, "My dear boy, please pacify." No hesitation, immediately he fell down. Upetya bhuvi kāyena. He is always at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, and, as a child, immediately as Brahmā said, immediately he did. Kāyena upetya nanāma, as it is, he was not to be lesson, that you meant like this, fall down this, no, he knows, everything. Life after life he is doing that. Gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kori māne. Whenever there is Kṛṣṇa's incarnation, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as soon as He advented Himself, immediately there was Advaitācārya, Nityānanda, and other, many, many devotees. They are guarāṅgera saṅgi, they are not sādhana-bhakti, they are eternally associate. So similarly Prahlāda Mahārāja is also eternally associate. Whenever there is need, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, he is present there to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. This is our position. Eternal servant.

We should not become servant to make some material profit. He is not, he is not śuddha-bhakta. Sa vai vaṇik, Prahlāda Mahārāja. So anyone who serves Kṛṣṇa for some material benefit, sa vai vaṇik. Material benefit means, that śāstra, Kṛṣṇa says that, patraṁ puspaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [bg. 9.26]. So many person comes in the temple for some material benefit. They surrender to the saintly person for some material benefit. "Give me aṣibha (?) benediction.What benediction?I have got ten thousand rupees, make it one lakh by your benediction." So these kind of devotees have been described by Prahlāda Mahārāja as vaṇik, vaṇīya, mercantile. Therefore merchant people, they want to invest two rupees and make, want to make profit ten rupees. So offering Kṛṣṇa little flower and fruit, they want to get some horses and elephant, you see, or very big estate. This is not devotion.

Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Our position is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa's position is eternal master. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [bg. 5.29]. He is the enjoyer. He is the proprietor. That is eternally, He is master, and we are eternally servant. If you keep this position, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So mahā-bhāgavata, they know always, they never forget this position, and those who are fallen souls, conditioned souls, they do not know it, so they have to be raised to that stage. That stage, how? So he is also nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, as soon as one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, he becomes nitya-siddha again. So either you come by sādhana-bhakti or naturally, the, when you come to the ultimate stage, everyone is nitya-siddha. So nitya-siddha, those who come from Vaikuntha, they are never fallen, never forgets Kṛṣṇa, that is nitya-siddha, and by the teachings of nitya-siddha mahā-bhāgavata, if one follows and then becomes by sādhana-siddha, by regulative principle, they also become nitya-siddha later on. And when one becomes nitya-siddha again, there is no difference between this living entity and that living entity, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So

tatheti śanakai rājan

mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ

upetya bhuvi kāyena

nanāma vidhṛtāñjaliḥ

If you simply learn from Prahlāda Mahārāja, simply offer your obeisances, as under the instruction of Brahmā, if you follow the guru, Brahmā is the guru, guru's guru. Prahlāda Mahārāja's guru was Narada and his guru was Brahmā. So our sampradāya is Brahmā, Brahmā sampradāya. There are four sampradāyas. We belong to this Brahmā sampradāya. So sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te niṣphalā. We have to accept one sampradāya, paramparā, and if we follow, just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, exactly under the order of Brahmā and Narada, immediately fell down, so everyone can do it. Here is Kṛṣṇa. So everyone, if he follows mahājana, Brahmā is the first mahājana. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ [sB 6.3.20], Brahmā, his another name is Svayambhū. These are mahājanas. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ [sB 6.3.20], Kapila, Manu, Prahlāda, Prahlāda is also mahājana. Prahlāda, Janaka, Bhīṣma, bali vaiyāsakiḥ vayam. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is mahājana. He is mahā-bhāgavata. Don't think that he is a little boy. That is his pastime to show us how a little boy can become mahā-bhāgavata, how a little boy can be the eternal associate of Kṛṣṇa, and how he can preach. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja.

Thank you very very much. (end)

Right, and why is that? Because the name of God is not a mechanical device. The name of God is a Person and to surrender to the name of God is a personal decision made internally by every jiva.

 

 

 

You can shadow chant mechanically for a thousand years without once uttering the Pure Name or one can quickly come to the pure platform if the attitude is right.

 

 

Anyway this is off topic for this thread.

Is it? We could tie it in. For instance, Satswarupa is publicly admitting to deception of his disciples, but not in a way that indicates he thinks there is anything wrong with it!!!

And how long has he been chanting the Holy Names?

Is this a sign that what he has been treating as an object, using it mechanically for his own purposes, is starting to wear him down. Forcing his conscience so to speak?

And what about GuruCripple. An outburst from him due to pangs of conscience mixed with his still motivated agenda?

The Holy Name does its thing, as you point out, with or without our consciously purposeful intention. Eventually cornering us into surrendering of our own free will to its transforming potency.

From my experience with this fellow, he is just another "Srila Prabhupada is long gone, posthumous, can't give diksa from a tape recorder through ritivks now that his body is in samadhi", and mental speculator of the fourth degree.

He considered himself "initiated" by a usurping faker like Hryday, and has stood by that for decades of Hrydaya's misrepresentation and overt non-acarya behavior, (wearing shoes on altar, claiming he likes to listen to classical orchestral music in his spare time as opposed to kirtana, the list goes on) while still encouraging the fawning masses to address him as "Acaryadeva".

Now he takes a strategic posture to assure him some spoils from the fallout of the splintering of Iskcon.

Yawn.

Yes but it is not an automatic, mechanical transformation requiring no internal work on the part of the practioner.

One follows the other.

First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility.

But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion.

How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.

Yes but it is not an automatic, mechanical transformation requiring no internal work on the part of the practioner.

One follows the other.

First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility.

But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion.

How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.

On the other side of this coin is the issue of responsibility for the choices that produced less than desirable results. For me it is definitely there

I rest my case, until you say otherwise. The results you consider undesirable are due to your illusion, not Krsna's will.

Anyhow, Srila Prabhupada covered the bases insisting on DVD, purity as the force, piety as the ideal example. We failed him. Not the other way around.

The Second Birth that makes a person a Vaisnava is based on the infusion of culture that occurs by the company of his Second Mother and Father. The Mother is Transcendental Vedic Knowledge, and the Father is the Spiritual Master who helps him learn and realize that knowledge.

In the Krsna Consciousness Movement, even the dullest and least intelligent type of man, the Sudra, can accept the beginnings of culture by hearing the simple explanations given by the Spiritual Master that will convince him he is not the body but a spirit soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Lord Krsna. He can receive a simple beginners understanding of how great Krsna is. He can be directly engaged in simple labors on behalf of the Spiritual Master and his society, and see how that pleases Lord Krsna. From that small infusion of Culture he WILL make gradual advancement.

Just like with making yogurt from milk, one adds a small amount of culture, and then must put the milk into a condition in which the culture will gradually expand and permeate the milk, transforming it into a complete product of that culture. Yogurt.

This is what Srngi lacked as a boy, and why he developed a condescending disdain for the "lower castes" He was born and trained to acheive high brahminical power, yet lacked culture due to inexperience, and encountered a situation that preyed on his weakness and caused him to fall.

The second quote is the lecture on culture, and it is a good one. It uses the term sudra to refer to those with no culture. The third quote shows how due to Srila Prabhupada's and Mahaprabhu's mercy, in this age a sudra who gets initiated into Gaudiya Vaisnava culture becomes "as good as a brahmana" in the sense that they have some cultural infusion at their second birth wherein they accept instruction and service of the Acarya.

Naturally the son of a brāhmaṇa has a good chance to become a brāhmaṇa by the direction of his qualified father, as a son of a medical practitioner has a very good chance to become a qualified medical practitioner. So the caste system is quite scientific. The son must take advantage of the father's qualification and thus become a brāhmaṇa or medical practitioner, and not otherwise. Without being qualified, one cannot become a brāhmaṇa or medical practitioner, and that is the verdict of all scriptures and social orders. Herein Śṛṅgi, a qualified son of a great brāhmaṇa, attained the required brahminical power both by birth and by training, but he was lacking in culture because he was an inexperienced boy. By the influence of Kali, the son of a brāhmaṇa became puffed up with brahminical power and thus wrongly compared Mahārāja Parīkṣit to crows and watchdogs. The King is certainly the watchdog of the state in the sense that he keeps vigilant eyes over the border of the state for its protection and defense, but to address him as a watchdog is the sign of a less-cultured boy. Thus the downfall of the brahminical powers began as they gave importance to birthright without culture.

Lectures : Initiations : Initiation of Hrsikesa Dasa and Marriage of Satsvarupa and Jadurani -- New York, September 5, 1968 : 680905IN.NY :

So in our association we welcome this sort of marriage between trained brahmacārī and brahmacāriṇī so that we can welcome nice children for future Kṛṣṇa conscious generation. That is our viewpoint. So... And initiation... Initiation means to begin spiritual life. According to Vedic culture, there are two births. One birth is from the gṛhastha parents, father and mother, and the other birth is between the spiritual master and Vedas. The Vedic knowledge is considered mother, and the spiritual master is considered the father. And by the help of the spiritual master, when one gets into transcendental knowledge, that is called second birth. So janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ: "Everyone is born śūdra." Śūdra means without any culture. They are called śūdras. According to Vedic scriptures, there are four classes of men: brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Out of these four classes of social order, the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas and vaiśyas are considered higher caste. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men in the society, and kṣatriya means the administrative class of men, and vaiśyas means the mercantile class of men, and śūdras means the laborer class of men. That division is everywhere, not only in India. These four classes of men are present in every country, every society. It may be in different names only, but the four divisions are already there everywhere. It cannot be without it. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [bg. 4.13]. These four classes of divisions are there according to different qualities, and Kṛṣṇa says, or God says, "That is My creation." So there cannot be any exception of His creation. Just like God's creation is sun. In every country there is sun, not that the sun can be seen in India. In every country there is moon. Similarly, this caste system is present in every country, in every society, but it may be called in different names. So the śūdras means the lowest class of men, who have no culture, but the higher classes, the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, they are considered highly cultured. And how they are called highly cultured? Because they are twice-born. First birth, janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskārāt, by following this ritualistic ceremony of initiation or marriage, they are called dvija, twice-born. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijo veda-pāthād bhaved vipraḥ. This initiation means this boy is being accepted as initiated in order to give him Vedic instruction so that he may live as a student, as a brahmacārī, within the society and get complete instruction of Vedic knowledge. And when he is competent, he is called vipra. Veda-pāthād bhaved vipro brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And when he realizes the Supreme Self, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he will be called brāhmaṇa. At that time we offer thread ceremony.

Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra.

Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?

Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.

Nitāi: He can remain in the factory.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.

Nitāi: So in that case he is a śūdra, and he is also doing the work of a...

Prabhupāda: Then he is not a śūdra. One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhūta [sB 4.30.20]. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [bg. 14.26]. Apparently he looks like śūdra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava," that is nārakī. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required.

Mahāṁsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mahāṁsa: He is a devotee. He is not a śūdra making garlands.

Prabhupāda: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

Pañcadraviḍa: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

Prabhupāda: Any engagement, any engagement for Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaiṣṇava. He is above all these.

Pañcadraviḍa: A śūdra, if he is working, he cannot take brāhmaṇa initiation, but he can take hari-nāma, is that it?

Prabhupāda: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brāhmaṇa, as śūdra, as kṣatriya, like that.

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

māṁ ca vyabhicariṇi

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

[bg. 14.26]

A devotee, because he is working as a śūdra, he is not a śūdra; neither he is a brāhmaṇa. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the śūdra's work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

Mahāṁsa: Does he get second initiation?

Prabhupāda: Everything he will get.

Mahāṁsa: He gets.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: "Now he has become fully competent Vaiṣṇava." Just like master is teaching the servant, "Now you give massage in this way, this way." But that does not mean he has become servant.

Pañcadraviḍa: What if the person working as śūdra says, "I can do so much. I can...,"

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He may act like a śūdra, but he is not śūdra. He may act like a brāhmaṇa; he is not brāhmaṇa. He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like gopīs. The gopīs, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brāhmaṇa class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra or vaiśya. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see: sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [sB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. That is wanted.

 

<table><tbody><tr><td width="80%">Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... [Bg. 18.46]. He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly. (More...)

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</td></tr></tbody></table>

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

1970 Edition : NoD 2: The First Stages of Devotion :

Now this sādhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārātrika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārātrika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

 

 

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

1970 Edition : NoD 2: The First Stages of Devotion :

Now this sādhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārātrika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārātrika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

 

 

Every day each one of the regular Audarya posters is getting closer and closer to the troll within. Don't fear this process, but rather embrace it.

Get up every morning and look in the mirror, and you will see the troll within is now gradually coming out. It is not that this troll picture has shown up on this thread by some random coincidence. Nothing takes place by chance.

Looks like I'm gonna need a bigger toothbrush.

And types like a troll...

Alas! Look at my imperfection!

 

I apologize for the false information then. So in the end, it was because of the time and circumstance that all of that transpired, and not because of Pariksit Maharaja or the brahmana boy.

Prabhu, just see that it is all of those things. Every truth you see has a relation to the Absolute Truth and his plan.

Kali made his choices. Srngi made his choices. King Pariksit made his.

King Pariksit was a more experienced and cultured person at his evolutionary moment, as compared to the powerful but inexperienced and uncultured young Brahmana boy.

Kali was, well powerfully influenced by Tama guna, but he surrendered to a Maha-Bhagavat, so received some mercy.

And yes all are and were puppets of the Lord's will and desire, either directly through guidance from within, or indirectly by the direction of the Lord's pure servant Maha-Maya.

Its all good as someone once said.

Your concept of a Vaishnava acharya is straight out of a superhero movie or a personality cult story...

No it is based upon what Scripture says, and what he accomplished, you know those accomplishments you claim to be tainted with poor results yet seem to be extremely envious of.

I certainly accept Prabhupada as an Acharya but my understanding of an acharya is much more rational and based on historical and scriptural examples.

You obviously think people can't read. By your own statements you consider Srila Prabhupada a conditioned soul who made mistakes at his attempt to make better material arrangements for the world. Your understanding of an acarya goes in direct contradiction to scripture, revealed by your decade long campaign of criticism which continues to this day.

No, I do not believe the Supersoul was dictating Prabhupada's books or making his decisions for him. His purports are based on the tikas of previous acharyas and his own realizations - that is pretty obvious if you know the tikas Prabhupada was using. As to his decisions, Prabhupada simply said that a guru knows what Krsna wants him to know - he made no claims that whatever he did was dictated to him verbatim by Krsna.

While the above is correct, it omits a very important point.

Firstly, your penchant for creating straw men is getting old. I never said whatever he did was dictated verbatim by Krsna. However the point you omit is that whatever he did "may as well have been directly dictated verbatim". Why you ask?

If he was a Maha-Bhagavata, uttama adhikari, Spiritual Master, and Acarya as you claim to believe, his realizations were perfection, his decisions were perfect, and the tikas of previous acaryas were perfect.

And before you jump the gun and make assumptions about what I mean by perfect, it is not according to your mundane super-hero understanding of perfect, but perfect meaning according to the Lord's will, desire, and plans.

So at this stage of perfection, if you indeed believe the one you criticize was there, the following occurs.

SB 3.15.45 from purport: But to obtain direct contact with the Supersoul and take dictation from Him is the highest perfectional stage.

SB 3.15.45 : more PURPORT : A person in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness acts by the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. In the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, dictation is received through the transparent medium of the spiritual master. When one is sufficiently trained and acts in submissive faith and love for Kṛṣṇa under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate. This stage of devotional service by the devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the most perfect stage of the yoga system. At this stage, Kṛṣṇa, or the Supersoul, dictates from within,

We know that dictation also means guidance. Direction. As a matter of fact, at the advanced stage of devotional service, it is considered that all acts of that devotee are in harmony with the will and desire of the Lord, this is why there are hundreds of examples of using the word dictation, with all the various meanings possible according to the circumstance.

In general it means simply knowing and acting in a way pleasing to the lord, not that he speaks to you in every circumstance literally, "Kula, it is time to use the toilet. Proceed down the hall and make the first left, open the door, etc."

For instance :

Arrival Comments in Car to Temple -- July 9, 1976, New York

 

Prabhupāda: Yes, I, when I decided I shall go to foreign countries, I never thought of going to London, I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very progressive.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone, London was nearer. But I thought, "No I shall go to New York." Sometimes I think I was coming this part. Aimlessly... I think the United Nations building is somewhere here?

 

But of course such dictation can occur if the situation requires.

April 1, 1969, San Francisco conv. : He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation.

 

March 14, 1976, Mayapur : Suppose a saintly person comes to a very sinful man. He needs some money. Immediately Kṛṣṇa says, "Give him some money. He requires." So he says, "All right, sir, take it." So Kṛṣṇa's desires, he gives. Unless Kṛṣṇa dictates from within, how he can give?

So, regarding your personal accountability theory for Acaryas,

As to chosing the disciples for leadership positions, Prabhupada certainly had a choice in the early 70's - and he DID exercise that choice as he saw fit, replacing temple presidents, secretaries, or GBCs. So the choices were his untill the very end.

If you think his choices were inappropriate, and brought poor results to the movement as you have always said, then you are directly criticising the one who guided his every move as he was completely surrendered to Krsna's will.

Unless of course, you believe you are smarter than Krsna. Or perhaps you should just admit, that due to your "beliefs" and opinions, there is no way Srila Prabhupada was a Maha-Bhagavat, a Spiritual Master, or Acarya.

Just freakin SAY IT DIRECTLY FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL.

It will make you feel better. And me too.

And the idea of me trolling for disciples is just as bizzare and divorced from reality as the majority of your posts.

If it walks like a troll, smells like a troll.....

I have always been wary of Kulapavana because he used to be one of the ones to shout aparadha against anyone who dared question the actions of the Iskcon gurus. Then he said his guru who ran off with a massage therapist was showing regret for his actions but Kulapavana never mentioned that if he was interested in rectifying himself he could start by giving back the money he stole on the way out. That sent off red flags there but I can understand these questions in regards to Prabhuapda's choice in leadership merely because those thoughts have popped into my mind before.

 

 

I agree with you if Kulapavana is doing this all within the Iskcon framework and suggesting he has the solutions and answers better than Prabhupada for Iskcon from within the Iskcon institution is indeed questionable to say the least. I was under the impression that Kulapavana is no longer associated with Iskcon. If he has a better method he should start up his own foundation, that would be the only respectable thing to do.

Many people claim to be no longer within the Iskcon framework, but as you pointed out, the enormity of Srila Prabhupada's accomplishments, with rudimentary assistance from people who, although willing and sometimes sincere, were entirely ignorant of 99% of what was Gaudiya Vaisnavism, makes it difficult for anyone who had the advantage of all he gave to claim to be not under his wing.

I belive THAT was by the Lord's design in order to keep us honest, and make it obvious who is trying to get what they don't deserve and make a mess of things.

For someone to create their own Sankirtana mission, based on Gaudiya Philsophy, on their own merits, without capitalizing on Srila Prabhupada's foundational legacy, or possibly contradicting him at some point in time, is practically nil.

But if it were so, that person would certainly not be regularly associating with Iskcon members, quoting Srila Prabhupada, handing out his books, and simultanously calling Srila Prabhupada's decision making into question on a daily basis.

Just the facts, Jack.

Your argument is baseless.

 

Pariksit Maharaja was faultless. Kali was faultless as well because gold was nowhere near Srngi.

You are right about his argument being off base, but so is your conclusion. Below is the logical progression based on the evidence and opinion of an advanced devotional servant of Lord Krsna. See the relevant portions of the purports below.

But because the age of Kali was seeking an opportunity to spoil the cultural heritage of the four orders of life, the inexperienced boy gave a chance for the age of Kali to enter into the field of Vedic culture. Hatred of the lower orders of life began from this brāhmaṇa boy, under the influence of Kali, and thus cultural life began to dwindle day after day. The first victim of brahminical injustice was Mahārāja Parīkṣit, and thus the protection given by the King against the onslaught of Kali was slackened.

Herein Śṛṅgi, a qualified son of a great brāhmaṇa, attained the required brahminical power both by birth and by training, but he was lacking in culture because he was an inexperienced boy. By the influence of Kali, the son of a brāhmaṇa became puffed up with brahminical power and thus wrongly compared Mahārāja Parīkṣit to crows and watchdogs.

Thus the downfall of the brahminical powers began as they gave importance to birthright without culture. The downfall of the brāhmaṇa caste began in the age of Kali. And since brāhmaṇas are the heads of the social order, all other orders of society also began to deteriorate.

This mentality of false prestige is the cause of downfallof the perfect social order, and we can see thatin the beginning it was started by the inexperienced son of a brāhmaṇa.

The conclusion is not lack of proper birth or training, but lack of cultural experience, or lack of the culture of equal-vision, compassion and tolerance. This lack of cultural experience is Kali's refuge. This is why Srila Prabhupada came not just to train the brahminically inclined in potent ritual, but to infuse them with the culture of knowledge of Sri Krsna and how every living being is His part and parcel and how Krsna is present in every one, and how to treat each person for their best benefit instead of how it best benefits our own sense of prestige.

It is all good, we all make mistakes and we learn and we grow. I am glad to see that you seem at peace with your service and you are growing and becoming a good representative of Krishna. I know I have had people in my life that I have believed in only to find my trust was misplaced.

 

I am really glad to see you are not in that mode where you view it as aparadha when anyone critisizes the actions of some of these Iskcon gurus. I have tried not to be critical myself but as an outsider that was not even born or very young when most of the history of Iskcon happened I have always felt I had a right to scrutinize the legitimacy of an organization such as Iskcon given its history and given the claims by some that the only way to heaven is to surrender to an Iskcon guru or something along those lines. I apologize if I have ever been disrespectful to you or your godbrothers.

Though your sentiment towards Kulapavana is kind-hearted, you have to realize that we can't have things both ways. One can serve only one master.

Either Srila Prabhupada was an Advanced Pure Devotee of Sri Krsna, a Maha Bhagavat Acarya and Spiritual MASTER who takes constant and eternal dictation from Supersoul, or not.

If he was such a one, those who scrutinize the legitimacy of his decisions in carrying out his mission, or claim the results of his efforts were harmful to the Krsna Consciousness movement, considering it as some material endeavor, are in ignorance. And not representing Krsna nicely at all.

Bg 10.3 : PURPORT :

Anything done under the direction of Kṛṣṇa is transcendental. It cannot be contaminated by the material reactions, which may be auspicious or inauspicious. The conception that there are things auspicious and inauspicious in the material world is more or less a mental concoction because there is nothing auspicious in the material world. Everything is inauspicious because the very material mask is inauspicious. We simply imagine it to be auspicious. Real auspiciousness depends on activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in full devotion and service. Therefore if we at all want our activities to he auspicious, then we should work under the directions of the Supreme Lord. Such directions are given in authoritative scriptures such as Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā, or from a bona fide spiritual master. Because the spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master, saintly persons and scriptures direct in the same way. There is no contradiction in these three sources. All actions done under such direction are free from the reactions of pious or impious activities of this material world.

Of course if he was not such a one, then that so called Spiritual Master is a legitimate and necessary target for scrutiny and criticism in the name of reforming a his poor methodologies.

If one is honest and humbly skeptical and scrutinizing in order to come to some reconciliation with apparent contradictions, that is natural and understandable and a compassionate person should endeavor to assist such an honest seeker of truth in whatever way possible to come to terms.

Though it seems disingenuous to me when a person points to the contradictions they find as indications of the failure of Srila Prabhupada, instead of first assuming it is because of their own fallen vision.

And while they haven't yet reconciled them, they are found to resist all reasonable efforts at explanation by those who have reconciled them.

Such a person has an agenda that does not include glorifying the Acarya, representing the Acarya, and it is obvious they do not actually believe he was of the exalted status that others believe he was.

So in such a case, I believe a wise person would not air out their assessment that Srila Prabhupada was flawed in the presence of known loyal disciples of his. There would be nothing for such a person to gain by doing so.

But a person looking to capitalize on the Acarya's legacy would do things differently. They would use a large amount of the knowledge and wherewithal infused to them by the Acarya, but then minimize him in other ways, hoping to draw sympathetic persons into his circle in the name of reforming the mistakes the so-called Acarya made. Thus building something of his own design off of the foundation he actually took from the Acarya, and simultaneously guiding the disenfranchised sympathizers away from the chance of resolving the apparent contradictions in the Acarya's movement in their own minds and being able to push on with the Acarya's version and gain the advancement that goes along with some effort.

Instead they get stuck in the Acarya-criticisers speculation effort and their spiritual advancement is stalled under that person's insufficient guidance.

Buyer Beware.

Yes, that was already touched on, and you don't have to include the whole previous post in a reply, especially when it is that big.

The nice thing is that in every circumstance, there is more than one truth involved, simultaneously.

I have to say you are way too sentimental to understand my point of view...

 

Prabhupada most certainly had a choice of who he surrounded himself with. He had 5000 disciples for crying out loud! It is puzzling to me why he chose so many questionable characters for the leadership positions in our movement. I certainly do not hold it against him - a lot of these guys were first class actors and natural con-artists, and perhaps SP was too trusting with his disciples.

 

And I trusted these people only because Prabhupada made them leaders of this movement, just like so many other second wave devotees. However, I never trusted them completely, and NEVER did anything contrary to my sense of right and wrong while in their service. I can live with that just fine.

Oh so he came to America, was surrounded with 5000 people, and like a captain of a team on a playground, he lined them up and picked, Ok you will be on 1st base, you will be the pitcher, you in left field.

You claim that Sri Krsna's Saktavesha avatara could be conned and tricked by a bunch of hippies you claim were "first class actors and natural con-artists."

Yet you weren't fooled. Trusted them but not completely. But you trusted Srila Prabhupada who was such a dupe.

Riiiiiiight.

The reality of the situation is that starting with the first group of men who stood forward, attended his lectures, got him a better apartment and began to serve him, and from then on those fallen westerners with rudimentary tendencies of the brahmana and ksyatria varna stepped forward, and he engaged them as they came.

It took a while for that # to become 5000 and he juggled them according to who he thought was best in whatever situation.

What part about Krsna as Supersoul dictating to the Acarya don't you understand.

On the other hand, by the sound of your posts, you don't believe he was an Acarya at all. Why don't you just admit it.

Perhaps because your pool of prospective disciples would quickly reduce to NIL.

Pranam

 

What evidence, opinions and purport does not prove anything especially when it is so biased. As we learn from Bhagvat, kali appeared as soon as Lord Krishna left the earth.

 

King Pariksit failed to deal with him instead allowed him four places to reside as well as in gold, which proved to be fatal, kali took resident in his gold Mukat, Kali did his job and Pariksit Maharaj acted in a way not fit for a King which he later regrated as thus;

 

Sri Suta Gosvāmī said: While returning home, the King [Maharaj Pariksit] felt that the act he had committed against the faultless and powerful Brahmana was heinous and uncivilized. Consequently he was distressed. SB1.19.1:

 

Pariksit Maharaj who is always protected by Lord Vishnu, but he accepted his fate happily upon hearing the brahmanas curse, he went on the banks of Mother Ganga ready to die.

 

We may argue thus that the curse actually became blessing in disguise as Pariksit Maharaj received nectar from a Brahmana Sukdev Goswami, in the form of Bhagvat katha. Since then the Bhagvat has become a source of inspiration for millions.

 

It would be foolish for me to conclude that the Bhagvat puran is a result of brahmanas curse or the kalis appearance as a result of it, since both were present before the event.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

There are many valid angles of vision as to the why when how and what for of Kali-Yuga.

The philosophy of Shree Krishna is Acintya BedhaAbheda tattva. Inconceivable Simultaneous Oneness and Difference.

So there is no argument needed to put forth the observation that the curse of Srngi was a blessing in disguise for Maharaja Pariksit. For this is the truth and how the Lord purifies his devotees. Yet simultaneously Srngi made an offensive blunder as part of his own Purification and spiritual growth process.

But your claim that Maharaja Pariksit "failed" in any way must be seen in the same light.

This can be seen by a deeper analysis of Maharaja Pariksit's treatment of Kali, who surrendered to him. Thus setting up the scenario for Kali Yuga, a Yuga in which Krsna decends with his big brother as Sri Sri Gaura Nitai and displays his infinite magnanimity in saving the most fallen and offering them everything. And setting up their pure servant, Srila Bhatkivedanta Swami Prabhupada to give instructions on how we can finally actually counteract Kali Yuga, something which the so-called Vedicans in India have obviously failed at up til today.

His instructions are explicit within his purports to the very story of King Pariksit and his meeting with Kali.

SB 1.17.30

Mahārāja Parīkṣit, who was qualified to accept surrender and worthy of being sung in history, did not kill the poor surrendered and fallen Kali, but smiled compassionately, for he was kind to the poor.

PURPORT

Even an ordinary kṣatriya does not kill a surrendered person, and what to speak of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, who was by nature compassionate and kind to the poor. He was smiling because the artificially dressed Kali had disclosed his identity as a lower-class man, and he was thinking how ironic it was that although no one was saved from his sharp sword when he desired to kill, the poor lower-class Kali was spared by his timely surrender. Mahārāja Parīkṣit's glory and kindness are therefore sung in history. He was a kind and compassionate emperor, fully worthy of accepting surrender even from his enemy. Thus the personality of Kali was saved by the will of Providence.

 

SB 1.17.31

The King thus said: We have inherited the fame of Arjuna; therefore since you have surrendered yourself with folded hands you need not fear for your life. But you cannot remain in my kingdom, for you are the friend of irreligion.

32. If the personality of Kali, irreligion, is allowed to act as a man-god or an executive head, certainly irreligious principles like greed, falsehood, robbery, incivility, treachery, misfortune, cheating, quarrel and vanity will abound.

33. Therefore, O friend of irreligion, you do not deserve to remain in a place where experts perform sacrifices according to truth and religious principles for the satisfaction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

35 . Śrī Sūta Gosvāmī said: The personality of Kali, thus being ordered by Mahārāja Parīkṣit, began to tremble in fear. Seeing the King before him like Yamarāja, ready to Kill him, Kali spoke to the King as follows.

36. O Your Majesty, though I may live anywhere and everywhere under your order, I shall but see you with bow and arrows wherever I look.

 

 

PURPORT

The personality of Kali could see that Mahārāja Parīkṣit was the emperor of all lands all over the world, and thus anywhere he might live he would have to meet with the same mood of the King. The personality of Kali was meant for mischief, and Mahārāja Parīkṣit was meant for subduing all kinds of mischief-mongers, especially the personality of Kali. It was better, therefore, for the personality of Kali to have been killed by the King then and there instead of being killed elsewhere. He was, after all, a surrendered soul before the King, and it was for the King to do what was required.

 

37. Therefore, O chief amongst the protectors of religion, please fix some place for me where I can live permanently under the protection of your government.

 

PURPORT

The personality of Kali addressed Mahārāja Parīkṣit as the chief amongst the protectors of religiosity because the King refrained from killing a person who surrendered unto him. A surrendered soul should be given all protection, even though he may be an enemy. That is the principle of religion. And we can just imagine what sort of protection is given by the Personality of Godhead to the person who surrenders unto Him, not as an enemy but as a devoted servitor. The Lord protects the surrendered soul from all sins and all resultant reactions of sinful act.

38. Sūta Gosvāmī said: Mahārāja Parīkṣit, thus being petitioned by the personality of Kali, gave him permission to reside in places where gambling, drinking, prostitution and animal slaughter were performed.

PURPORT

The basic principles of irreligiosity, such as pride, prostitution, intoxication and falsehood, counteract the four principles of religion, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness. The personality of Kali was given permission to live in four places particularly mentioned by the King, namely the place of gambling, the place of prostitution, the place of drinking and the place of animal slaughter....

 

...Following in the footsteps of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, it is the duty of all executive heads of states to see that the principles of religion, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, are established in the state, and that the principles of irreligion, namely pride, illicit female association or prostitution, intoxication and falsity, are checked by all means. And to make the best use of a bad bargain, the personality of Kali may be transferred to places of gambling, drinking, prostitution and slaughterhouses, if there are any places like that. Those who are addicted to these irreligious habits may be regulated by the injunctions of the scripture. In no circumstances should they be encouraged by any state. In other words, the state should categorically stop all sorts of gambling, drinking, prostitution and falsity. The state which wants to eradicate corruption by majority may introduce the principles of religion in the following manner:

1. Two compulsory fasting days in a month, if not more (austerity). Even from the economic point of view, such two fasting days in a month in the state will save tons of food, and the system will also act very favorably on the general health of the citizens.

2. There must be compulsory marriage of young boys and girls attaining twenty-four years of age and sixteen years of age respectively. There is no harm in coeducation in the schools and colleges, provided the boys and girls are duly married, and in case there is any intimate connection between a male and female student, they should be married properly without illicit relation. The divorce act is encouraging prostitution, and this should be abolished.

3. The citizens of the state must give in charity up to fifty percent of their income for the purpose of creating a spiritual atmosphere in the state or in human society, both individually and collectively. They should preach the principles of Bhāgavatam by (a) karma-yoga, or doing everything for the satisfaction of the Lord, (b) regular hearing of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from authorized persons or realized souls, © chanting of the glories of the Lord congregationally at home or at places of worship, (d) rendering all kinds of service to bhāgavatas engaged in preaching Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and (e) residing in a place where the atmosphere is saturated with God consciousness. If the state is regulated by the above process, naturally there will be God consciousness everywhere.

Gambling of all description, even speculative business enterprise, is considered to be degrading, and when gambling is encouraged in the state, there is a complete disappearance of truthfulness. Allowing young boys and girls to remain unmarried more than the above-mentioned ages and licensing animal slaughterhouses of all description should be at once prohibited. The flesh-eaters may be allowed to take flesh as mentioned in the scriptures, and not otherwise. Intoxication of all description-even smoking cigarettes, chewing tobacco or the drinking of tea-must be prohibited.

 

 

39. The personality of Kali asked for something more, and because of his begging, the King gave him permission to live where there is gold because wherever there is gold there is also falsity, intoxication, lust, envy and enmity.

 

 

PURPORT

Although Mahārāja Parīkṣit gave Kali permission to live in four places, it was very difficult for him to find the places because during the reign of Mahārāja Parīkṣit there were no such places. Therefore Kali asked the King to give him something practical which could be utilized for his nefarious purposes. Mahārāja Parīkṣit thus gave him permission to live in a place where there is gold, because wherever there is gold there are all the above-mentioned four things, and over and above them there is enmity also. So the personality of Kali became gold-standardized. According to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, gold encourages falsity, intoxication, prostitution, envy and enmity. Even a gold-standard exchange and currency is bad. Gold-standard currency is based on falsehood because the currency is not on a par with the reserved gold. The basic principle is falsity because currency notes are issued in value beyond that of the actual reserved gold. This artificial inflation of currency by the authorities encourages prostitution of the state economy. The price of commodities becomes artificially inflated because of bad money, or artificial currency notes. Bad money drives away good money. Instead of paper currency, actual gold coins should be used for exchange, and this will stop prostitution of gold. Gold ornaments for women may be allowed by control, not by quality, but by quantity. This will discourage lust, envy and enmity. When there is actual gold currency in the form of coins, the influence of gold in producing falsity, prostitution, etc., will automatically cease. There will be no need of an anticorruption ministry for another term of prostitution and falsity of purpose.

40. Thus the personality of Kali, by the directions of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the son of Uttarā, was allowed to live in those five places.

 

 

PURPORT

Thus the age of Kali began with gold standardization, and therefore falsity, intoxication, animal slaughter and prostitution are rampant all over the world, and the saner section is eager to drive out corruption. The counteracting process is suggested above, and everyone can take advantage of this suggestion.