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Posts posted by andy108


    Let's approach it this way. What is meant by the saying, ' religion without philosophy is just sentiment and philosophy without religion is mental speculation.'


    What does 'religion' mean in this context?


    Parroting or repeating ritually (religiously) words of power or prayers or any other activities meant to worship God.


    If done with proper philisophical understanding, they have meaning and are Further purifying to the performer and also beneficial to others/observers/neophytes.


    If done without philosophical underpinning, they create shadow Iskcon in all it's Gory.


    Unless one is as brahminically qualilfied and potent as Srila Prabhupada, one needs a community of others more or less as quailified to practice religious activity with in order to move from Jnana Misra Bhatki to Bhakti proper.


    I would venture a guess that we Cyber brahmanas are becoming philisophically prepared to engage in such meaningful religious activity with one another. The computer is good for Hearing and Chanting with one another, but as Theist points out, grounding it out is another thing.


    Some might call this next stage DVD proper. Action in Krsna Consciousness for the Advanced Neophyte coming to the true Madhyama Platform, under the guidance of the Uttama Spiritual Master's instructions.


    Could be fun.


    Here is the most comprehensive explanation of Siva tattva that I have found.

    It is for the most part the most definitive exposition on Siva tattva.


    (argument over?)


    Special thanks to Narayana Maharaja for his excellent exposition of Siva-tattva.


    What argument? I thought this was a discussion. LOL.


    That kind of lecture is what NM Prabhu is good at. I wish he would stick with such, and not try to speculate about Srila Prabhupada's purports and preaching misssion.


    Anyhow, In the mood of simultaneous oneness and difference, which I would hope you old timers would swear by, by now, I searched Srila Prabhupada's writings on Sadasiva and found 2 very simple explanations of why


    1. Sadasiva has his own Tattva (Simultaneously Visnu tattva and Jiva tattva, yet as a whole belonging to a unique inbetween tattva dubbed Siva tattva by Srila Prabhupada himself in the purport to SB 4.1.15)


    2. There is SIMULTANEOUSLY One Shiva, who has Two distinct manifestations, namely,


    a) Sadasiva who is a kala-svamsa of Visnu and consorts with Ramadevi/Laksmi who is "material nature in the neutral and unmanifested state".


    b) Sadasiva's espansion Lord Siva/Rudra, who consorts with Mahamaha (material nature in manifestation) from a distance in such a pure way that even a liberated Jiva can be blessed with such a role.




    1. Lectures : Philosophy Discussions : Discussions with Hayagriva dasa : Origen : ORIGEN.HAY


    "Or there are two kinds of expansion: His personal expansions and His expansion as part and parcel. His personal expansion is called Viṣṇu-tattva, and the part and parcel expansion is called jīva-tattva—in Sanskrit technical words, svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. The personal expansion there are also many varieties—puruṣa-avatāra, saktyāveśa-avatāra, manvantara-avatāra, many varieties. So generally, His personal expansion for creation of this material world are three also, accepted as Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Viṣṇu is personal expansion, and Brahmā is expansion of the living entity, or the vibhinnāṁśa. And another expansion, via-media between the personal expansion and expansion of jīva, the via-media expansion is called Siva.


    2. CC Adi Lila 7.69, Purport (Bolded areas most relevant)






    Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadāśiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a guṇāvatāra [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes.






    There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Śiva. They are as follows: Ajaikapāt, Ahibradhna, Virūpākṣa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurūpa, Devaśreṣṭha Tryambaka, Sāvitra, Jayanta, Pināki and Aparājita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yājī. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahmā and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Śeṣa. Lord Śiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guṇa he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Brahma-saṁhitā. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-saṁhitā the relationship between Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva is compared to that of milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Purāṇas it is found that Durgā appears sometimes from the heads of Brahmā and sometimes from the heads of Viṣṇu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Saṅkarṣaṇa and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vāyu Purāṇa there is a description of Sadāśiva in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. That Sadāśiva is a direct expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadāśiva (Lord Śambhu) is an expansion from the Sadāśiva in the Vaikuṇṭha planets (Lord Viṣṇu) and that his consort, Mahāmāyā, is an expansion of Ramādevī, or Lakṣmī. Mahāmāyā is the origin or birthplace of material nature.


    Class Dismissed!


    because it is a dangerous surgery. no body wants to get an abortion! it is never used as prevention it witnesses that many young poeple dont have control over their impulses and life.

    But i still want to know were you draw the lines? what about the rape victim or the 13 year old girl?


    There are many couples who are more or less qualified (by Kali Yuga standards) to raise a child who are in the adoption market for various reasons. The statistics on successful adoptions in America are very high.


    And the demand is high as well.


    People obviously have the right to do whatever the hell they want with their bodies. And they do. To their karmic detriment, if you believe Visnu sastra. So a compassionate person will do everything in their power to suggest taking responsibility for the fact that a fetus arrived in the womb, however it got there, even if through "victimization", and suggest the karma free method of dealing with it. Offer to adoption. Not murder.


    Of course there is also the case of a person, whose psychological makeup is qualified by dharma, who would not be able to stand by and witness a fetus murder, but would be bound to step in and use force to disrupt the procedure, even if it was consensual by the murderer and the mother. Such qualified Ksatriyas are rare, but not unheard of. Such a person would also be found in a context whereby they would have the full capability to take responsibility for THEIR involvement, and provide a viable option to the fetus once brought to term, and dispense proper justice to the "doctor" and the woman, according to scriptural code and time/place/circumstance.



    Brother, I think you're the one hallucinating. That's why you have to resort to name calling, which is a sign of anger, and we all know what happens to angry people.


    "From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool." (B.G 2.63)




    He never called you a name. He characterized your philisophical stance as concluding (''VADI") that pure fixed up devotional servants can "FALL" and become deluded. Thus "fallvadi".


    Which is not supported by Sastra. Which means you were speculating. Which is certainly equivalent to hallucinating, spiritually speaking.


    If you can prove, using Sastra, that Jaya and Vijaya were Deluded due to being present in the material atmosphere, as you wrote, that would be one thing.


    Otherwise, you were simply caught in a moment of passion, spouting your speculative hallucination as if it was truth, in reaction to the substance of this thread, without a spirit of inquiry or thorough diligence.


    Which can easily be considered a spasm of attempted sense gratification.


    Which failed. And you were called on it. At which point you proceeded to project your anger at being exposed upon the one who pointed it out.


    I hope you will be more careful this time, and not shoot the messenger, I mean you no harm or offense, just defending a Vaisnava who you are offending (however so minor). And your vadi is just plain wrong.


    Hare Krsna

  5. It seems to me according to the sastra presented that the Jiva who plays the role of the demigod form of Siva is fully under the shelter of the internal potency. Thus svamsa expansion of Krsna as SadaSiva expands to empower a Vibhinnamsa espansion (nitya-mukta-jiva) aka: the guna-avatara Demigod Siva.


    Like Jaya and Vijaya were under the influence of Yoga Maya during their "falldown".


    Lord Siva felt agitation for sex from MohiniMurti, but it was under the influence of Yoga Maya.


    So there are 2 Sivas, but they are both eternally liberated devotional servants. So simultaneously, there is one Siva who expands into the many different Rudra incarnations.


    Both angles of vision are justifiable.


    The only one that is not is Kryos and his idea that Jaya and Vijaya were "deluded" while in the material atmosphere.


    Santa-Rasa in Vraja


    Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari


    Q. In your Sanga "The Perfect Commentary on Vedanta-sutra," you touched

    on the issue of apparently contradictory statements from Gaudiya

    acaryas regarding the existence of santa rasa in Krsna's Vraja-lila. In

    some circles this is quite a controversial subject, so can you address

    this further?


    A. Sri Krsna is known as Rasaraja. This name implies that he tastes all

    rasas, and it refers to him in his Vraja-lila. From this it should be

    clear that he does taste santa-rasa in Vraja. This is also confirmed in

    Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 4.3.85. There Sri Rupa writes that Krsna tasted

    santa-rasa along with all other expressions of sacred aesthetic rapture

    while lifting Govardhana Hill. In this example Sri Krsna tastes

    santa-rasa from the vantage point of the shelter (asraya alambana) of

    santa-rasa. Later in Mathura he tasted santa-rasa from the vantage

    point of the object (visaya alambana) of love when he was wrestling in

    Kamsa's arena (SB 10.43.17). Therein it is clearly stated that the

    sages present experienced santa-rasa in relation to Sri Krsna. Such

    sages may very well include persons like Durvasa, who also resides in

    Vraja proper. So santa-rasa is expressed in his Vraja-lila within

    Mathura mandala.


    At the same time, Krsna's Vraja-lila is primarily characterized by love

    that is devoid of reverence, and thus it is often said to begin with

    sakhya-rasa. Brahmaji described all of Vrndavana as being permeated by

    sakhya-rasa when he told Sri Krsna, aho bhagyam, aho bhagyam nanda gopa

    vrajaukasam yan mitram paramanandam purna brahma sanatanam: "Oh, how

    fortunate, Oh, how fortunate, are the Vrajavasis of Nanda gopa, for the

    supreme bliss and complete, eternal Brahman is their friend." Thus

    everything and everyone in Vraja is touched by friendship. Everything

    and everyone is also touched by the influence of romantic love that

    Krsna's Vraja-lila is centered on.


    Bhaktivinoda Thakura acknowledges that santa-rati is present to some

    extent in the Vraja-lila when he writes in Jaiva Dharma, "At first I

    thought that there was no santa-rati in the devotees of Vraja, but now

    I see that it is present in them to a limited extent. " In the same

    book, however, he also writes, "Santa-rasa is absent in Vraja." Perhaps

    Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura sought to clarify Bhaktivinoda

    Thakura's statements when in his commentaries to Upadesamrta and

    Caitanya-caritamrta he attributed santa-rati to the nonhuman species

    and apparently inanimate objects of Vraja, such as cows, rivers, hills,

    and Krsna's flute. However, Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has

    attributed sahkya-rasa to the hills of Vraja and vatsalya-rati to Sri

    Krsna's cows. So there are different opinions among acaryas, and human

    reasoning renders any of these opinions problematic.


    For example, while there is reason to believe that Vraja's cows are in

    vatsalya-rasa, their relationship with Sri Krsna is also one of being

    protected by Gopala. Anyone who raises cows knows that they are as much

    children in need of protection and constant care as they are mothers,

    and at least in Dvaraka, Krsna's children are considered to be in

    dasya-rasa. Krsna's cows are also his istadevata and thus worshipable

    by him. Furthermore, why do we find that Radha and Govinda are not

    inhibited in front of Vraja's bovines as they are before human elders

    relishing vatsalya-rati? After all, vatsayla and madhurya-rasa are not

    compatible. Neither are santa and madhurya-rasas compatible for that

    matter. Mahadeva and Brahma are said to have taken birth in Varsana and

    Nandagrama as hills; are they in sakhya-rasa? Sakhya-rasa is exchanged

    between equals. The gopis attribute a male gender to Krsna's flute at

    one time and a female gender at another time. Is it male, female,

    neither of these, or both? Sometimes the creepers of Vraja are thought

    to be tasting madhurya-rati, but what is the nature of this

    madhurya-rati and how can it compare to that of the gopis themselves?


    Great devotees view the world through the lens of their bhava, and this

    may afford them different angles of vision at different times.

    Furthermore, some of Sri Krsna's devotees experience the suddha-rati

    known as svaccha (transparent), in which they taste the rati of those

    with whom they associate, moving between santa, dasya, sakhya, and

    madhurya. Therefore, on issues that lie beyond our present realization,

    it is best to respect the opinions of great souls, even when we cannot

    fully understand them.


    Questions or comments may be submitted at the Q&A Forum:

    or email sangaeditor .


    That is a wonderful collection of knowledge from previous acaryas. Alot to meditate on in detail, but the broader picture is angle of vision and layering of tastes depending on circumstances.


    I wonder if I were to give a lecture like that if I could get a bunch of neophytes to worship me as Rati-Keli-Siddha?

  7. I think Santa Rasa with Visnu or Narayana forms is different than Santa Rasa with Krsna in Goloka.


    I don't know why, have no evidence.


    I know that perfection of regulative principles can only get someone to service colored with friendship with Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha, I think this has something to do with my intuition.


    I now tend to agree with Sonic that once attaining Goloka proper, in any rasa, that Sri Krsna's protection against Maha Maya's illusory power is full and irrevocably extended.


    So I wonder why Nitya-Mukta-parishad Sakhis are still considered Jiva tattva. Why would they not be classified as embodiments of Cit Sakti at that point. It has nothing to do with being able to travel back and forth through the Viraja between the material and spiritual worlds, because all Krsna's plenary expansions can do that. Hmmm.


    I don't have the reference at hand and it is time for me to hit the sack, but I do remember reading something to the effect that a sadhana-siddha is also nitya-siddha and upon the attainment of siddha the distinction between the two disappears.


    In Goloka there is no division of sadhana-siddha and nitya-siddha.

    That form of discrimination does not exist there.


    Upon becoming siddha one becomes an eternal associate of Krishna and there is no discrimination that one of sadhana-siddha or nitya-siddha.


    The distinction ceases to exist in eternality.


    Yeah, I liken the nomenclature in these analyses to a Zen Koan for Jnana Misra Bhaktas. If yer gonna be a Muni, gotta have a position to defend. This type of discussion helps Munis to become Sthiya or situated in Pure Bhakti. Jaya Prabhus. Sweet dreams of Krsna.

  9. Sonic asks: "then why can't he take marginal energy and transform it into internal ?


    He probably could, but it is not stated in sastra that he can, or does.


    Sonic says: "But, the jiva can be transformed into internal potency with the addition of cit-shakti and hladini-shakti as explained by both Prabhupada and Bhaktivinode.

    (quote are already provided in previous posts)"


    This is a misrepresentation. They do not say transforms into.


    Sonic says: "When the chit and the ananda (hladini-shakti) are added to the jiva then the jiva can be considered as internal potency"


    I would say "considered as good as internal potency"' Even the some nitya-mukta-parishads are not considered as internal potency, but as Jiva potency, although they exhibit virtually identical characteristics.


    Don't forget Beggars lucid explanation of the varying degrees of the margin of the shoreline and the saturation levels of water in the sand along the width of the margin. Nitya Mukta Parishad Jivas are still situated in the Marginal Potency, as is SesaBaladevawhen he expands there. It doesn't equate to being marginalized necessarily. But it is true that at points along the margin, a Jiva may be situated in ignorance, bereft of Hladini Sakti.


    Jaiva Dharma




    Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)? <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

    Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti. Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupaas sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.


    Interesting. When established, or situated, in his Jiva sakti, Krsna assumes the swarup of Vilas-murti of Vraja, or Baladeva.


    Also known as Sesa Tattva, this Baladeva form manifests Nitya-mukta-parishad JIVAS, who render service.


    Similarly as Sesa Rupa, or Sankarsana in Paravyoma, manifests 8 types of these eternally liberated Jivas to render service.


    Differentially, as an avatara of Sankarsana named Maha-Visnu, he situates himself within the Jiva sakti as Paramatma rupa and manifests Jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world under the INFLUENCE of Maha Maya and can be DEFEATED by her until they take shelter of Hladini Sakti of the Cit Sakti.


    So here we see a division among the qualifications of JIVAS.


    So there are Nitya Siddhas who are Swarupa Sakti Tattva.

    There are Nitya Siddhas who are Jiva Sakti Tattva.

    There are Sadhana Siddhas who are Jiva Sakti Tattva.

    There are Nitya Baddha Jivas, who are to engage in Sadhana to become siddha.


    It would seem that in the case of some Jivas, the nitya mukta parishads, there is no characteristic to their independence that they would fall under the spell of illusion, that it is not even a possibility, as opposed to what is infered about sadhana siddhas in Srila Prabhupada's statement.


    Even though he admits it never happens, and we have no examples of such a thing happening.


    Another reason why I don't care if anyone considers that Sadhana Siddha Jivas have no possibility of fallilng under Maha Maya. Because they actually don't, even if technically they do, they just don't. :)

  11. Sonic said.



    I don't feel I need myths.

    I can take the cold, hard truth of the shastra and I don't like to be baby fed myths like Aesops fables.


    So, again "Prabhupada said" is not absolute to me.

    It has to match the shastric version.


    If it doesn't, I just think that Srila Prabhupada was watering things down for the dull-headed followers who were prone to ask him so many dumb questions earning them the myths Prabhupada felt he needed to tell to nuture them along.


    There is no "Back to Godhead" theme in the shastra that I have ever seen.




    Srila Prabhupada qualified his "Back to Godhead" Statement in Krishna Book, among other places, where he said that for us it meant taking birth on some earth planet where Krsna was enacting his pastimes, perhaps in Dwarka or Gokula.


    And as far as that letter to Jagadish, that happens to fit nicely with the exacting sastric statement that "general sakhis" are JIVAS. Jivas are known to have independence and tendency to take shelter of either or energies. I happen to like his explanation that we Jivas always, always, have the option to exercise our independence yet due to the nature of being fixed in loving service, we do not.


    It is just words anway. At that point, noone in the spiritual world is saying, Nyah Nyah, I am sakti tattva and you are only Jiva tattva.


    It is a nice contemplation for us though. Thanks.


    Hare Krsna

  12. Sonic Yogi :Well, Krishna has free will to the unlimited degree.

    Does that mean he can fall down from being the Supreme Being?


    andy: Irrelevant.


    SY: Why does free will necessitate the ability to fall down?


    andy: In the case of a Jiva, even one who is perfectly fixed up in Krsnaloka, because Prabhupada says so.


    ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down." Letter to: Jagadisa

    Los Angeles

    25 April, 1970


    SY: Does not Radharani have free will?


    Or is she a slave?


    Can Radha fall down?


    andy: No, reread this portion of Jaiva Dharma. She is the personification of the complete swarupa-sakti or Cit Sakti, all her priciple sakhis are expansions of herself or pure Cit-potency, the characteristics of their independence do not include the capacity to be covered over by Maha Maya's illusion, as do the Jivas.



    "Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.


    SY: Free will does not necessitate the imperfection of fallibility.

    In fact, free will and infallibility are both qualities of the nitya-siddhas.


    andy: You must remember, we are speaking of the Jiva's who are IMBUED with Hladini Sakti, but remain distinct in category from the nitya siddha sakhis, and are considered sadhana siddha Jivas, according to Srila Bhaktivindode.



    Babaji: Srimati Radharani is Sri Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, and the eight principal sakhis are Her first kaya-vyuha (bodily expansions). The other sakhis follow behind as Her further kaya-vyuha. All these sakhis are nitya-siddha; they are svarupa-sakti-tattva, not jiva-tattva. The general sakhis of Vraja – who attained perfection by performing sadhana – follow Srimati Radharani’s eternal associates (parikara), and they are known as sadhana-siddha jivas. Having been imbued with the potency of hladini-sakti, they attained salokya (residence in vraja-aprakrta-lila) with the nityasiddha sakhis of Vraja


    SY:Such is the version of Lord Krishna.


    Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible.


    Why do so many devotees insist that the souls are fallible because they have free will?


    andy: This is a case of acintya bedhabedha. They have their independence as do all jivas, but due to their perfection of attaining loving service to Krsna, they NEVER use that independence to try to get inferior temporary pleasure from the material deminar ever again. YOU are insisting they are fallible. They are infallible at this point, but still considered Jiva tattva, there is no transformation to become Swarupa Sakti Tattva. It is not necessary.


    SY: We have free will here but we don't have the free will to create our own planets or fly through outer space.

    Free will always has it's parameters.

    In Goloka, the parameter of free will does not include the capacity to be overcome by ignorance and fall down from love of Krishna.


    Free will in Goloka is not the same kind of false free will that living entities in illusion think they have.


    Andy: It is a paradox. According to the English language, capacity does mean that it can happen. So if the capacity is there, but the choice is never made to fulfill that potential, then there is no spoon is there? He He.


    Yet, even Srivasa Pandit of the pancha-tattva is described as representing the tatastha-shakti.

    My thinking about that is it is because he is Narada Muni who does have some dealing with the material energy and goes back and forth between the material world and Vaikuntha.


    As long as the jiva has some dealings with the material world he is classified as tatastha-shakti, even though we know that Narada Muni is invincible and beyond any of the charms of Maya.


    So, going back and forth = tatastha-shakti.


    Sonic Prabhu,


    How does the above speculation reconcile with this quote pasted back on page 3?



    Vrajanatha: Will you please explain who are the nitya-siddha gopis and who are the sadhana-siddha gopis?


    Babaji: Srimati Radharani is Sri Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, and the eight principal sakhis are Her first kaya-vyuha (bodily expansions). The other sakhis follow behind as Her further kaya-vyuha. All these sakhis are nitya-siddha; they are svarupa-sakti-tattva, not jiva-tattva. The general sakhis of Vraja – who attained perfection by performing sadhana – follow Srimati Radharani’s eternal associates (parikara), and they are known as sadhana-siddha jivas. Having been imbued with the potency of hladini-sakti, they attained salokya (residence in vraja-aprakrta-lila) with the nityasiddha sakhis of Vraja. Jivas who attain perfection by the path of raganuga-sadhana in srngara-rasa are included amongst the sadhana-siddha sakhis.


    It seems to me that these perfect living entities who engage in the highest rasa available are still considered jiva or tatastha or marginal because they always retain the option/potential to fall or lord it over material nature.


    But there is no recorded instance of one EVER doing so, which is testimony to the transformation that occurs when one has reached the level of mature personal exchanges with Krsna due to Prema. They NEVER fall, but always retain the potential, ala Free will.


    As far as I can tell, this is the only instance of something we can conceive of happening, that does not. Sadhana Siddha Jivas are eternally transformed in their ORIENTATION due to being enveloped by Hladini Sakti.


    They may even come to the material world, and even appear to play a role as demon or adversary (ie. the cowherd boy Sankachuda) but they are always remembering Krsna under YOGA MAYA'S spell, not Maha Maya's.


    Hare Krsna

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