andy108

sorry to but in,

 

that need not be said andy. both you and me and every other devotee would relish some cleaning service, just as we enjoy kirtan. same same.

Wrong Bija, I was responding to the implication in the tone behind his questioning.

Did you notice from the first instance, he used the idea of cleaning pots, and then to sweeping, then to moping?

He implies a lack of humility on my part to do a simple, sometimes dirty task for Krsna.

And there are many who see it that way, unfortunately, which is why he can get away using that type of statement to imply a person's reluctance to be humble and simple.

For the record, I very recently spent almost 6 weeks caring for Gaura Nitai deities that Srila Prabhupada installed. Deities which were for all intents and purposes abandoned neglectfully due to the people who were previously caring for them being carried away by nonsense. To the point of leaving them alone for all intents and purposes, without knowing I would show up there. I saw it as the Lord's arrangement to give me service, but it was also, simultaneosly, as I just noted.

I did everything for them, almost exclusively from early morning til putting them to rest. Got a little help, and guidance, but it was not easy for me to deal with the mood of the others who felt that they had better things to do and their overall patronizing attitude.

I wasn't going to say anything about this, just wanted to give Kula enough rope to hang his nonsense false ego with as he projected his holier than thou "I'll even sweep the floor" routine at me.

But I changed my mind. After all spiritual life is about adapting and changing sometimes right?

Time for rest. Sweet dreams of Krsna!

When was the last time you showed up at Lord Krsna's temple ready to mop the floor for Him? Try it... it will do you a world of good. I say that out of compassion for you and all other keyboard philosophers ready to badmouth anybody who does not fit their standard of purity and devotion.

I would tell you when if it were any of your business. Interesting how you have been throwing out that presumption post after post, that I am not willing to do some dirty work for Krsna. What do you think I am doing now wrestling with your publicly pronounced misconceptions?

It is also a fact that Krsna has the option to 23-skedoodle out of a vigraha in a temple where he is being forced to witness blasphemy and other crap. Gaura Nitai on the other hand, if installed by a lover, will hang in there.

I have no problem with those who have low standards. I have a problem with those who have only devotion to themselves, mask it with false devotion to God, and assume and support an anti-Bhaktivedanta Swami stance while pretending otherwise.

And I am not finding fault with Srila Prabhupada but with those of his fanatic followers who make claims the entire world is laughing at. SP's program was neither fool-proof nor perfect

Funny sounds like fault finding to me. You also never address the issue that his program was dictated, as he himself claimed, by Visnu-tattva. Of course that would be more overt fault finding, but you may as well go all the way up the food chain.

and complete - it was an impressive work-in-progress which accomplished a very significant part of Lord Caitanya's mission.

was a work in progress? You meant is. Or is that just another fraudian slip revealing what you really think?

Spiritual life is never static - it must continually grow and evolve. That is why we have guru parampara. The mission SP created must evolve and adapt or it will become dead and irrelevant to people. It will then be replaced with other missions. I can see the signs of that already.

Sounds like Herr Fuehrer Barrack Obama and Change is good!

The only thing that makes KC become dead and irrelevant to people are losers who don't abide the instructions of their spiritual master, and lead people down the royal road to hell. How can a speculators sadhana spiritually invigorate people? KC isn't for everyone, it isn't a popular movement, most will be fortunate enough just to hear a Harinama party go by. Guys like you want it to be all things to all people. Sorry. If you really want mass appeal, try socialism or communism for the most bang for your buck.

You may live in your 1960's time warp but others will only find you completely irrelevant. Every day I talk to new people discovering the precious jewels of Srila Prabhupada, Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, and other great Gaudiya Vaishnavas. This is NOW... deal with it.

What an overexaggerative crock of manure. You may have people tuning in to some Polish language forum, but here in America, you and I both know you hardly ever talk with anyone discovering any precious G.V. jewels, or else P.V. wouldn't currently be such a stagnant nowhere place, counting on mundane "sustainability conferences" to get people to visit. And as far as Iskcon strongholds in America, it is the best of the lot!!

Your now is just about over, your attempts at minimizing His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami will have no more effect at holding back the tide ofhis tidings of Sankirtana Bliss than a small cloud has at obscuring the blazing sun.

The only reason you can stand these public drubbings is because most of the people on this forum are secret Guru wannabee sahajiyas also and stand mostly silent seeing what they are in for if they really come to your aid. And you just keep coming back for more. It would be amazing if I didn't know your material conditioning came from Poland.

Nice people, but not to Bright.

In your case, I have come to a conclusion.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.

You can lead a guy to an Acarya, but you can't force the link.

Wake up, or not. Your choice.

I think what he means is that Caitanya is the central focus...and the unifying point for us all. Each subsequent acarya will always point to Gaura tattva. Gaura tattva is the goal.

Your statement above may have some merit, yet it is spoken in a way that excludes all the other valid reasons he said what he said.

It is like when one of SP's disciples was resisting the order to implement DVD within Iskcon by citing the conclusion of Mahaprabhu's conversation with Ramananda Raya as a reason why he and his fellow sadhakas were already too advanced to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

Where in one of his purports Srila Prabhupada actually uses one of the earlier answers Ramananda Raya gave to Mahaprabhu as justification for him implementing Varnasrama in his Movement!

And in response, SP challenged, "who is going to be like Ramananda Raya?"

Of course Srila Prabhupada pointed to Mahaprabhu's examples as acarya, and wanted us to come to understand his mysterious hidden glories but this never trumps his admonishment to follow his (SP's) instructions and to understand past acarya's methods by hearing from him about it. As a matter of fact that is prerequisite to gain the confidential understandings.

First off the only Sampradaya Acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada doesn't mean to over-glorify him. Over-glorify in this context means to claim him as Sampradaya Acarya thereby neglecting the actually position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu whose samkirtan movement, Srila Prabhupada was expert at distributing. To neglect the real position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is an offense that the real Srila Prabhupada will not appreciate.

WHOOOAAHH, Easy there boys.

I said "A Sampradaya Acarya."

Pushing some buttons there am I? Quit frothing at the mouth, take a deep breath, and read what a guy writes carefully before stampeding all over the keyboard.

Or does anyone actually want to claim he is not a Sampradaya Acarya? By some of the comments I have seen today, It is obvious that is the true inner opinion of at least one or two of the participants on this board.

And for those who insist that title only applies to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then how about we use HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's admonishment to accept the "current link" in the sampradaya. And how he says we MUST understand previous acaryas through the insight of the current acarya we choose to follow.

Now go ahead and chew on that bucket of Oats, and let it sink in before responding.

I did serve in the military so I can relate to the military discipline. But in the military renegade commanders like K-swami would have been court martialled and possibly shot for treason. Instead Srila Prabhupada forgave him at least a couple of times for very serious transgressions. So you are right - there was no military discipline in Iskcon because it was not a military.

 

Thus there is no reason for you to harp on the point of 'absolute surrender to the supreme program of the supreme commander'. We are a volountary organization based on pragmatic principles of 'judge by the results'.

And those who do not voluntarily accept the full discipline of the supreme program in all its features will not benefit to the furthest degree possible.

Or else what are the use of all the instances where Srila Prabhupada spoke of not completing the course of one's devotional service. Of course there is no loss or dimuninition, but one always HAS to start where they left off if they are a sadhana bhakta and not yet siddha.

Srila Prabhupada excommunicating, then forgiving, Kswa was always based on Kswa's (at least nominal) resurrender. In the mood of the MahaPrabhus dealing with Jaya and Vijaya, only in this case Kswa was a conditioned soul not a liberated associate.

So if you need to use "judge by the result" to indicate that Srila Prabhupada's program was flawed, and it is time for something new, have at it.

I believe a more determined sober approach is to blame the result on the degree of sincerity and surrender of the participants, than to claim that the Origin of Sri Guru, Sri Balarama himself, was unable to use a MahaBhagavata to deal out a supreme sadhana program, and now it is up to a conditioned soul to try and clean up his mess.

Such a perspective speaks volumes to me about the surrender and sincerety of the one expressing such lack of confidence in the Lord and his initmate servants.

go to any Krsna temple and mop the floor - it will do you more good than all the mental gymnastics you do here on the internet.

 

I know many nice temples with devotees who inspire me to serve Krsna, starting with the one where I live, in Prabhupada Village, NC. We have all sorts of devotees here serving together. It works for me and I like it. That is my standard: judge by the results.

I am judging by your results, and I have not had to strain my mentality gymnastically to do it. Your premise is flawed and anyone with a mundane logical brain can see it. For you to suggest a person to just show up at "any Krsna temple" shows your lack of compassion and concern for what usually happens to people who do. All in the name of defending your half-baked philosophy on why you find fault with a Sampradaya Acarya. Too bad for you, I hope you get better from your illness.

Hare Krsna

Best wishes to you and your preaching program.

Thanks, unfortunately I am such a rat's ass that it is still not manifest, though I can make a good approximation of preaching on internet forums.

The Prabhupada-only-ites generally have mistaken "As It Is" for certain ideas to exist as facts such as the same way material scientists ascertain "facts". Part of this was an inevitable reaction to Srila Prabhupada's preaching strategy in the West where even so-called hippies were harboring the scientific analysis of existence. So now many believe that is a "fact" that Krsna is God, and a "fact" that Srila Prabhupada is an uttama adhikari. Generally this conception also includes that no one else who is presently embodied is or even potentially is an uttama adhikari. We also know that more often than not this other worldly viewpoint includes the idea that the jivas originated in Goloka.

So why don't you do something about it? Like follow your "guru of choice'', and show everyone how much of an uttama he or she is by becoming one yourself?

You know, become engaged 24 hours in Sankirtana Yajna, control the urge to speak, your genitals, convert many souls to Gaudiya Vaisnavism through your prasadam distribution, literature distribution, daily Harinama, etc.

Until then what good is your speculation about what the other big mouth horses are speculating?

Except maybe to gain some fame and distinction for your blistering analyses of what trouble the "general" believer in AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's pure divinity is causing themselves and others. Yawn.

You may also want to add that despite all of his efforts many of his disciples still managed to create some pretty horrible deviations in his presence, let alone after his departure.

Perhaps if you actually read what I wrote you would you would see I addressed that. The statement began with "he had his hands full..."

What does that tell you about the program itself?

Since the program works for me, and keeps so many others at least spiritually alive though treading water on the fringes of the temple/farm properties under sinister control...

it tells me more about the degree of notoriously selfish lust and greed of the main players than anything about the systyem itself.

That despite "military like discipline" it can still be easily abused? That despite providing 'perfect sadhu-sanga' still generated more dropouts than just about any religion I can think of?

Again, this speaks to the fact that Swamiji was no facist and did not force anyone. And No more or less than ANY system, can be abused.

And that someday, the sincere who are facing their purification trials in exile, on the fringe, are able to by grace come together and cooperate under the perfect program of the acarya, and accept that military like discipline, the results will increase Krsna's glory, and save many new souls.

Unfortunately, from the bitterness that is exemplified in your challenging mood, I am not assured you will be a participant in such. It seems you would rather Srila Prahupada had not made an all encompassing system of instructions because "someone might abuse it." A strange but telling notion.

It also seems to me the demand for 'military like discipline' did more damage than good in our movement, especially when used by crooked leaders we have had over the years.

See the last statement of my above response. And I will add you are way off the mark saying "especially when used by crooked leaders."

What a twisted logic. You are basically saying his demand for military like discipline was flawed. period. As if it could NOT be utilized for positive results. That is irrational. Perhaps Grandfather Bhisma and Dronacarya should have neglected the miltary discipline they instilled in their charges. Hmmm?

Let Theist tell you how he liked that kind of sadhu-sanga... it did not work for him, and it did not work for most other people.

It doesn't work for anyone in its perverted form. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn't help the baby either.

I was not advising Theist to talk to people on the internet. I was advising him to perform some practical seva in a company of devotees. Washing pots, sweeping the temple, cooking for the Sunday feast... this kind of stuff. Perhaps it has been far too long since you did any of such seva to realize it's value.

What temple do you suggest? Mind you for someone who is chaste to all the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave, it is a current fact on the ground thatmost every temple is not run strictly according to his standard. Most, even your cherished P.V. temple, has a Temple President who is a disciple/cheerleader of an GBC appointed-voted in "Saksad Hari".

Granted, Madhuha Das is making a striking and unique gambit at instigating change through a tolerant infiltration, but unfortunately he is shy of support by most of the "go along to get along" fence sitters he is surrounded with.

Of course there are a couple ritvik temples with skeleton crews, but they are infiltrated and not so friendly, except!! Brahma Bhuta das had a nice Sunday feast program on Saint Mark's Place in NYC last I checked.

In other words, a devotee like Theist has no interest in going to wash pots for some Bogus guru and his fanatic disciples who have stolen Srila Prabhupada's property just to get a chance to watch them wave some inscense and flowers in front of a murti, and use that experience to feel whole. Far from it.

However in that vein, perhaps he could get up the inspiration to do his own version of a sunday feast out of his humble abode.

Or wait until me and my friends finally get organized. As far as I am concerned, when our program is running, I will invite everyone publicly, I am not afraid of who shows up, because if they are nonsense and want to start trouble they will easily be dealt with, if they are long and lost and been praying for something small but genuine, I will see it in their eyes and welcome them.

Til then, I offer commiserating camradarie on the internet, no pie in the sky "come on over and 'do seva' for me and Bhogi Swami, you'll feel better crapola."

LOL no offense Kulapavanna, but I am sure by 'books' andy had the seriously reading (hearing) and following of those books in mind and not just being tricked into buying one on the street.

Good point, and also remember that the majority of books for DECADES have been reduced from Cintamani status due to the altering by fiendish knuckleheads.

Firstly though, I wasn't berating anything, just pointing out that the first exposure to sadhu sanga is almost invariably HEARING them speak in some capacity about the Lord.

Second of all, I agree that it is POSSIBLE THOUGH UNLIKELY that the first thing a newcomer will come upon is a group of devotees taking prasadam at a sunday feast, and perhaps not at the moment seeming to talk only about Krsna, but they are still Krsna conscious and whatever topic they may be speaking of is certainly linked to their overall mood of Krsna kattah.

If they greet the person with warmth, their first impression is "hey a bunch of nice people, lets eat."

So, there is this possibility that is indirectly not first HEARING proper.

But let's face it, in general devotees are austere to any prajalpa or mundane effort, and MOST OF THE TIME are to be found by the general public busily engaged in Kirtana, arcana, japa, Harinama, in the kitchen cooking bhoga, or BOOK DISTRIBUTION.

The new person does not enter the closed door meetings of managers. If there were farms, who just wanders out into someones field at random and strikes up a conversation? And they have no access to the kitchen.

Get the point.

But I agree, Theist and ALL of us could benefit from increased sadhu sanga. But how does that come? Remember, a strongly brahminical person could create that around them just from reading the books, doing some internet research, and starting their own program. Unlikely but possible.

Otherwise I have only met one person who could organize a group of 2 or more new Bhaktas and persuade them to keep to the "military like discipline" (as he called it) of his organizational structure. And that was A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami himself. And he had his hands full correcting the deviations from that program personally, and constantly.

So, barring the appearance of a new self-effulgent acarya, it is incumbent on anyone who wishes to revive and restore such a sadhu-sanga to become intimate with the Swami's program of Daiva Vaidhi Bhakti, practice it without deviation, and offer it to others.

All other sanga, including just talking with me and me alone on the internet, is of some other character and can offer some limited shadow version only.

Better than nothing? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I lay down the law in my own life, and it is following strictly and mixing that with the last vestiges of my mundane attractions.

I cannot imagine seeking other company who is not as strict as me about "Prabhupada only", without having to feel the need to call "Horseshit, that is your speculation and I won't follow" time and again.

Which means I will continue to lead my own life, and if someone comes along who is as chaste as myself to Srila Prabhupada but has accomplished creating a richer, deeper, more societally inclusive program than I have, I will consider a chance for meaningful subordination and join in and follow more than lead until I find my new place.

Otherwise, If the Lord wills, my own situation will purify and grow and attract those who would see something similar in my following of His Vani, and seek to harmonize with me as leader for a spell.

It is all based on Love and Trust. In Prabhupada's vani I trust. Anyone else claiming some inspiration to lead differently according to time place and circumstance, as if it has changed that much since Srila Prabhupada left, I will wish them well, but know they are doomed to second rate.

Hare Krsna!

"burn eternally in Vaisnava hell"

It has been very cold were I live and a little humdrum.

Wouldn't mind taking a little vacation there, I got sunblock.

Oh wait, I get it, you mean ALACHUA FLORIDA.

The only one I know who I am sure is rati keli siddha. Advanced is an understatement. H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Thank you for the lecture, but you misunderstood my point. Some people have no taste for the hearing Krsna-katha. Do you find that strange to accept? That is where sadhu-sanga comes in: associating with nice devotees inspires people to hear. Associating with not-so-nice devotees inspires people to run for the hills.

 

You judge by the results.

I see where you are coming from, but from the origin of this topic to the point you came in, we were way past the point where the querant (Theist) was exposed to Sadhu-Sanga.

Your first comment was that his legs might be weak because he is lacking service. That was a good point I springboarded off to show how without the other parts of the social body of devotees engaged nicely, the head oriented folks among us will feel a little stymied in progressive devotional service.

Then you jumped in toward the end of the conversation, adding in response to my statement that service begins with hearing..

First you have to get to the point where you want to serve. People were inspired to serve because they were exposed to the sadhu sanga. If we associate with other devotees the service atitude arises in our heart.

 

As if a person does not want to hear Krsna kattah, without first getting warm and fuzzy with some nice people (what you call Sadhu-sanga). But if a person comes upon REAL sadhu-sanga, their first experience IS HEARING. Of course it helps if they are nice respectful people, but you can find lots of them anywhere, and not necessarily speaking Krsna kattah right? If it tastes good (and the people are nice) they are back for more. If not they "run to the hills", (and perhaps just read Prabhupada's books.) Simple right?

Theist has been serving for many years by faithful hearing and chanting. Just hitting a plateau lately, a bump in the road. I say the gap preventing his ability to get his legs under him is from a patch or two of "faulty hearing" where he missed some instruction that was relevant to his progress in integrating with a society of devotees. Or creating one.

And he is associating with devotees here, on this forum.

Your last statement was a bit non-sequitur, and I thought a bit vague considering all that was spoken previously.

He already has a service attitude or never would have begun his career in devotional service. His theoretical knowledge is not complete, or it would have manifested in practice he would be comforatable with. Just standing around a group of random neophytes is not going to make anything further arise within him. He needs to discover what he may have missed from the lips of the advanced devotee, which I am hoping to point him to as my service to him, and the advanced devotee.

If you think that the association of regular devotees is not sadhu-sanga, that is your loss.

 

I like to associate with devotees of all kinds, provided that they are not envious or offensive to other Vaishnavas. Others I respect and avoid.

 

<!-- / message -->Regular devotee? Sounds like a term you made up. Never saw any authority use that term. Interesting how you equate the term regular devotee with someone who does not accept a key perspective and instruction of a Maha-Bhagavat Acarya. What parampara are you from?

How do you equate the standard I hold for a devotee with something that excludes anyone regular? Maybe that is why no acarya has ever used the term regular devotee as a delineator of class.

Regularly, the terms neophyte, intermediate, advanced, and NON-devotee or PSEUDO-devotee are used for such purposes.

Now if you meant to say neophyte, there is a broad range there.

There are neophytes who are chaste, adhere to instructions, and don't speculate above their paygrade, and only offend themselves by inattentive chanting.

There are neophytes who are maverick, both envious and offensive, but nonetheless remain in due of a certain respect from a distance due to their chanting the holy names in some capacity.

Those who would seek out the latter group of neophytes as Sadhu-Sanga will get a certain result that is not so enviable.

Unless they are more advanced, and are seeking their association to uplift them. That is virtuous, but not so easy.

So did that little lecture help you see where you are coming from?

If that works for you then good.

 

I feel though that Srila Prabhupada is trying to share something much more beautiful. Remember a focal point in Gaudiya philosophy is personalism...infact extreme personalism.

 

So why not home? Why can't that be personalized as well.

 

Just imagine the total living consciousness, a living spiritual personality - harmonized and loving. And being an intergral part of that home (person).

 

Try to get your head around it oneday Sonic. Then you will accept why Srila Prabhupada used such terms.

"Home is where the Heart is."

A very popular expression. Especially amongst those who had a home life as a child with doting concerned and caring parents.

A house is where you hang your hat. A home is much more.

"There is no place like home."

A home is meant to be a place of sanctuary from the outer world. It can be a yoke (for the Grhamedhi) or an asrama/temple (for the Grhastha).

In the old days, one was born in their home, often in water, to a midwife, or ayurvedic physician present, NOT in an impersonal hospital. There they were nurtured by the divine impulse of the mother.

When one has had a good home, it is someplace they always hold fondly in their memory, and love to visit, and sometimes long for.

Being present with Lord Krsna in Gokula/Goloka, interacting with the head God, includes alot of interaction around the homes. A group of homes make the humble village. Most nights come and everyone heads for home to rest and recharge for another exciting day. The home is the hub and base from which the luxurious dishes are prepared for everyone to enjoy, the place where the milk is turned to yogurt and churned to butter, and where Mom is always ready to greet with a warm hug.

Just the view from behind my Rose colored lenses.

Jaya Suchandra Prabhu.

Posted here a bit in prior years, different user name, style should be mostly the same. Been getting solid with the philosophy, never got hooked into any apa-Iskcon scene, so I am waiting for my purification to get to a sufficient level that Srila Prabhupada will give me a commission, start a sankirtana temple somewhere maybe, invest in a printing press. Til then just hanging on the fringe like all the others who were marginalized into exile by the shysters and hucksters, but don't have the potency to initiate anything substantial on our own, or take back a property and some money to kick start something.

It is just a matter of time and patience though.

Infiltrated a temple once, and due to Krsna's arrangement was practically running the whole program when the envious caught on to my mood, and brought the whole gauntlet down on me, barely escaped without a fight (literally) and had no chance of winning. The whole thing was just to show me I could do it and train me up a bit, give me a glimpse, and get me out in the nick of time. Next time is for keeps.

Hare Krsna

First you have to get to the point where you want to serve. People were inspired to serve because they were exposed to the sadhu sanga. If we associate with other devotees the service atitude arises in our heart.

Bhakti Yoga 101.

The first limb of devotional SERVICE is HEARING.

HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami told us his Books were the recorded CHANTING of his own devotional ecstasies, which included his instructions to anyone who wished to be disciplined by his transcendental spiritual knowledge. So to HEAR from HIM is to SERVE HIM, and thus by watering the root, to serve EVERYONE.

The biggest mistake people make is not broadening their mind far enough to understand this point. They still have a narrow conception that to "serve" ONLY means they need to walk up to someone in a body and say "What can I do for you?" Or that the Sadhu Sanga they must approach cannot possibly include a "departedinvisibleposthumous" Acarya.

The next largest mistake is refusing to accept Srila Prabhupada's admonishment that we can associate with him (a devotee) by his Vani or following his instructions. Regardless if we can see his Vapu (bodily form) or not.

This is the main reason the purport below, which is original and unchanged, was changed by the Psuedo devotees to read that one must remain in and associate with those in the "society", instead of what the Acarya said...

Books : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta - 1975 Edition : Cc. Madhya-lila : Madhya 19: Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami : Madhya 19.157 : PURPORT :

If one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or nondevotees in the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society, one can keep direct company with the spiritual master, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master. However, unless one follows the spiritual master's instructions and the regulative principles governing chanting and hearing the holy name of the Lord, one cannot become a pure devotee. By one's mental concoctions, one falls down. By associating with nondevotees, one breaks the regulative principles and is thereby lost.

 

And this purport from SB further elaborates.

Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 4: "The Creation of the Fourth Order" : SB 4.28: Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life : SB 4.28.47 : PURPORT :

Figuratively the queen is supposed to be the disciple of the king; thus when the mortal body of the spiritual master expires, his disciples should cry exactly as the queen cries when the king leaves his body. However, the disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vāṇī (words). Physical presence is called vapuḥ. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.

 

The only Sadhu Sanga that is bonafide are those personages who will not neglect this aspect of the Acaryas teachings, in my humble opinion.

All others are fit to be avoided, because they invariably are looking to procure servants to expand the influence of their speculative mission.

You are missing the point in that purport.

It says that shakti-tattvas are empowered to become avatars.

When the shakti-tattva become shaktyavesha avatar he is then an incarnation of Godhead like Vyasadeva.

 

The shaktyavesha avatars come from the ranks of the shakti-tattva, but when they are empowered avatars they are incarnations of Godhead.

 

Go back and read it again without coloring it with your pink glasses.

 

Yes, jivas are shakti-tattva, but shaktyavesha avatars are incarnations of Godhead.

 

 

 

So, if being shakti-tattva means incarnation of Godhead then we are all incarnations of Godhead according to the statement above.

Kshami, incarnation of Godhead does not equal Visnu tattva no matter how much sophistry you employ in hopes to make it so.

A member of the Visnu tattva is the one empowering or giving or lending a limited amount of His potency to the Jiva, thus enabling it to do the saktyavesa thing.

Below Srila Prabhupada speaks DEFINITIVELY to the point.

***snip from full explanation below***

"So śaktyāveṣa avatāra is not viṣṇu-tattva. He is jīva-tattva."

Conversations : 1974 Conversations : April, 1974 : Morning Walk -- April 6, 1974, Bombay : 740406mw.bom :

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are different types of śaktyāveṣa avatāra. So when an ordinary jīva is specially empowered, he is called śaktya aveṣa avatāra, śatktyaveṣa avatāra, vibhūti. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam. He is living entity, but especially empowered. Just like for certain business I give sometimes somebody power of attorney, that "He will do this. He will sign for me." Like that. He is also one of the disciples, but for particular purpose, he is given the power of attorney. In this way when a living entity is empowered specifically to do something, that is called śaktyāveṣa avatāra. Aveṣa avatāra. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe nāma pracāra. That is explained in the... These are explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. [break] ...śaktya. Mama tejo-'ṁśa-sambhavam. So śaktyāveṣa avatāra is not viṣṇu-tattva. He is jīva-tattva. So the Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha, they come within the jīva-tattva especial power.

Hare Krsna

This is going to hurt me as much as it will hurt you. Well maybe you more, depending on which side of the bed you woke up on.

Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 4: "The Creation of the Fourth Order" : SB 4.15: King Prthu's Appearance and Coronation : SB 4.15.6 : PURPORT :

In Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says that whenever one sees an extraordinary power, he should conclude that a specific partial representation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is present. There are innumerable such personalities, but not all of them are direct viṣṇu-tattva plenary expansions of the Lord. Many living entities are classified among the śakti-tattvas. Such incarnations, empowered for specific purposes, are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. King Pṛthu was such a śaktyāveśa-avatāra of the Lord. Similarly, Arci, King Pṛthu’s wife, was a śaktyāveśa-avatāra of the goddess of fortune.

 

More confirmation below.

Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 1: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 1.13-14 -- London, July 14, 1973 : 730714BG.LON :

So jīva-bhūta, we jīvas, we are all prakṛti. Puruṣa is only Kṛṣṇa. All living entities... Viṣṇu-tattva is puruṣa-tattva, and we are śakti-tattva, śakti, energy, marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa. So energy is prakṛti.

Theist-ji... maybe you feel top heavy because your legs are weak? Legs are the manifestation of service. See SB 3.6.33:

 

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, service was manifested from the legs of the Personality of Godhead for the sake of perfecting the religious function. Situated on the legs are the śūdras, who satisfy the Lord by service.

PURPORT

Service is the real constitutional occupation of all living entities. The living entities are meant to render service to the Lord, and they can attain religious perfection by this service attitude. One cannot attain religious perfection simply by speculating to attain theoretical knowledge...

 

More here: http://vedabase.net/sb/3/6/33/en

To expand on this point, someone who is more strictly inclined to the intellect will see their devotional service stymied or stunted at some point if they fail to understand the method the most recent MahaBhagavat Gaudiya Acarya gave them to employ those who are predominantly chest/arms, belly, and last but not least, legs.

Srila Prabhupada mentioned in one conversation that if the Head gets straight, the others will fall in line.

To me this means a proper and pure understanding of the Acarya's time/place/circumstance dispensation for implementing Daiva Varnasrama Dharma, first among his disciples, then amongst all comers from society at large.

Service begins with Hearing. Then chanting. A parapeligiac can do this and gain Transcendental knowledge. No legs required. But their devotional service will not progress beyond proper theory, and they will not experience further purification, if they cannot bring theory into practice by dedicating their loving attentions to the rest of the societal body nicely due to lack of understanding of how to persuade them, naturally, to get involved.

I see alot of intellectuals who seem to theoretically grok the descriptions of guru-disciple relationships between past acaryas, seem to theoretically grok the strict Vedic-viddhi Varnasrama system of past yugas, but have no capacity to take instruction on how to boil that down according to the Acarya's instruction for expanding the Sankirtana Yajna throughout society in THIS age. So they look down on everyone else as hopelessly incapable of ever conforming to Varnasrama, when it is they who have lacked surrender to the instructions in this regard given according to the pure angle of vision of Srila Prabhupada, as dictated to the heart of his mind by the omniscient Sri Guru Balaramji, and are thus themselves standing in the way and have no legs to stand on.

Yesthis is also where I wanted to go with this thread. The idea of intention. Who of us really knows why we do what we do? It's not an easy read.

Great point Theist.

I remember reading that to follow the rules and regs strictly without understanding the goal you are trying to reach in doing so, will be completely worthless. I thought, but if you understood the goal, why do anything to get there? Didn't make sense.

But then I realized that the small but real taste and realization I had of Krsna's presence in his holy names, and the small change in attitude and character that occured in me after chanting and reading Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita, were signs of what would expand to greater things if I were to incorporate further rules and regs. So this newfound Self-Interest satisfied the criteria for me enough that my religiousity has not become too mundane and fanatic.

So the heart of it is Enlightened Self-interest at first. We then gradually come to be able to have other's true Self-interest in our relation to them as our Abhidehya leads to Sambhanda, and this brings proper balance between the Head chakras and Heart chakra and our material dealings reflect more mode of goodness during the purifying process. We can then use our sentimentality to persuade others through our religious process.

Without enlightened self-interest our dealings with others are simply respectful business like manipulation at best, and fanatic controlling facism at worst.

That is my nickles worth at least.

Hari Bol!

Ok, I get it.

You left your reading glasses at the office?

In your stubborn, obstinate pride, you can only give an ad-hominem attack after being proven wrong. Is it that difficult for you to just admit you were wrong?

You cannot reproduce any sastra to back up your original statement, that very statement which I reproduced, that very statement you changed later to match some sastra.

You are either too stuck up to think I may have caught your mistake and didn't even bother to check back to the original thing you said, or you are just prevaricating to save your self image, hoping no one else will check on you.

Admitting you are wrong is like putting a pick axe to the stone around your heart. It must be done. Otherwise you can read til the cows come home, think you know something, but the stone like lens distorts what you read for your own purposes. I like to think you are better than that and just having a bad hair day, but the jury is still out on that one.

But is it so automatic? We have seen and perhaps experienced that the strictest adherents to the rituals of vaidhi bhakti even after decades haven't come to the platform you described.

 

Somewhere in the midst of it all we have to come to want to cross that barrior of I me mine and actually want to love.

***But is it so automatic? We have seen and perhaps experienced that the strictest adherents to the rituals of vaidhi bhakti even after decades haven't come to the platform you described.***

My experience has been philosophy first, so no I am not speculating, I have a small taste, some attachment to that taste, include rituals as I can, and treat people pretty fairly.

The strict adherents you mention have not been strict about the most basic and essential aspect of vaidhi bhakti...hearing. They deviated. I only heard from Srila Prabhupada, and compare anything anyone else says (like reading on forums, his godbrothers, past acaryas, etc) to his words. This has kept me safe and allowed me some small progress, or I wouldn't respond to your post as you seemed genuinely in need, and if I had nothing to offer I would be just trying to lord over you in your vulnerability.

Srila Prabhupada said it would be automatic, even if you didn't know anything in the beginning, but he meant for those who read his books and took his vani ONLY. That is what he said, and what he meant. He didn't vouch for anyone else, and neither do I.

That barrier of I me mine remains for quite some time, look at all the very advanced mixed devotees of the Lord. Love comes at intervals inbetween, if you equate love with dedication and duty and small attachment due to taste.

Sthai Bhava leading to Prema is another animal. I am told.

In my opinion it is much better to err on the side of dry mental speculation than sentimental religious fanaticism, which is one of the things I have appreciated about what seemed to be your approach after reading your posts over the years.

Like in the Gita where Krsna says that Jnana is more advanced than Fruitive sacrifice.

Best regards. Hare Krsna!

Sorry, but you are wrong about that.

That is what a shaktyavesha avatar is - Vishnu manifesting through a jiva.

 

Do some more homework before you jump to conclusions so hastily.

 

Vyasadeva started out as a jiva and then he became an incarnation of Narayan.

So, as far as I am concerned that is Vishnu manifesting through a jiva.

 

SB 4.19.37 purport,

 

So, the only way to become God is by being his devotee.

 

It's amazing what you can learn if you read the books of Srila Prabhupada.

You twisted what your original point was. You said, and I quote, Visnu can manifest Visnu-tattva through a Jiva.

Now you are claiming that the phenomenon of saktavesha avatara is proof that "Visnu can manifest through a Jiva."

That was not your original premise. You have read the things I have written. Do you really think I would try to argue that Visnu cannot manifest through a Jiva? That was already a given in this discussion. Insulting my intelligence is beneath you so you must just be in a funk tonight, I understand. If you want sense grad, you aren't gonna get it lording it over me though.

Purport: Sometimes Lord Viṣṇu appears in His person as Lord Kṛṣṇa or Lord Rāma. All of these appearances are mentioned in the śāstras. Sometimes He appears as a śaktyāveśa-avatāra like Lord Buddha. As explained before, these śaktyāveśa-avatāras are incarnations of Viṣṇu's power invested in a living entity. Living entities are also part and parcel of Lord Viṣṇu, but they are not as powerful; therefore when a living entity descends as an incarnation of Viṣṇu, he is especially empowered by the Lord.

.....................When King Pṛthu is described as an incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu, it should be understood that he is a śaktyāveśa-avatāra, part and parcel of Lord Viṣṇu, and is specifically empowered by Him. Any living being acting as the incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu is thus empowered by Lord Viṣṇu to preach the bhakti cult. Such a person can act like Lord Viṣṇu and defeat demons by arguments and preach the bhakti cult exactly according to the principles of śāstra

 

Incarnations of Visnu's power invested in a living entity means what it says. It does not mean Lord Visnu transforms a Jiva into Visnu tattva, or gives the Jiva all his potencies, which would make the Jiva equal in quantity to whatever Visnu was doing the empowering, which by the way could be KRSNA. Saktavesha avatara = Sakti Tattva = empowered Jiva. Not Visnu Tattva. He is especially empowered with some potency or potencies by some Visnu tattva. There is a difference. And if you need the proof, just reread the purports I have been posting on this thread.

Then I don't know, chant 2 rounds and come on back in the morning?

Yes this is the puryifying stage but what is the result of being purified? Do we not then become motivated to engage in life by love of God and others?

 

 

At some point we have to surrender to this love. Allow ourselves to be cent per cent controlled by it. We must die to our lower motivations to live to our higher motivation.

 

 

 

I am convinced that not only is fear of death an ever present dread in the back of everyone's mind but also the fear of love. In fact the fear of loving seems to me to be a force behind the fear of death (along with the fact we are eternal by nature).

My point is I feel there are subtly 2 proper approaches.

One is to follow the rituals religiously and try to match that simultaneously with study of philosophy, and hope one doesn't become a fanatic in the mean time.

The other is to make sure one never does any external activity, religiously, other than absorbing theroetical knowledge with the mind, and then acting grosser external religious ritual based on that.

The third possibility I leave out is complete ritual without any philosophy. That will drive someone to seek out philosophy the hard way, however.

If either of the first 2 are performed, ie. sadhana bhakti aka vaidhi bhakti aka hearing/chanting following regulative principles of varna and asrama, then eventually some taste and attachment to Krsna will manifest, along with some realized knowledge/understanding of how he is in others as supersoul, and in all things, and how to use ''things" for his and others benefit.

That is the only point at which a now advanced neophyte may meaningfully engage with others outside the temple/home and call it loving. All else is strictly material/worldly manipulation or survival of the fittest.

Hare Krsna

So, now you have to resort to claiming that purports have been miswritten by the BBT editors in order to defend your claim that Siva is just a common jiva?

 

Ok, Gaurahari, I understand why you want to leave the discussion and claim a false victory on the basis that the books of Srila Prabhupada are seriously flawed.

 

If you think Vishnu cannot become a jiva, then you surely have a very limted concept of the abilities of Lord Vishnu who is the smallest of the small.

 

He can become even smaller than the jiva if he so chooses.

 

Vishnu can even manifest Vishnu-tattva through a jiva if he so chooses.

 

In short, Vishnu can do anything he wants.

Visnu may manifest guru tattva through a jiva. But there is no thing as Visnu tattva manifested through a Jiva. Sorry.

Visnu tattva means plenary expansion or expansion of expansion. Svamsa or Kala-svamsa. Full potency always.

Jiva is fragmental part and parcel. Even when liberated and manifesting guru tattva, never has full potencies of Visnu tattva. See below.

SadaSiva is Isvara tattva, even considered Visnu tattva. Rudra is not. Sri Advaita Acarya is Isvara tattva. Lord Shiva/Rudra is Guru tattva, or Sakti tattva, but not Isvara tattva or Visnu tattva.

Conditioned Jiva is not yet Sakti Tattva, but Liberated Jiva is Sakti Tattva.

Lectures : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures : Adi-lila: Lectures : Adi 1: Lectures : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.12 -- Mayapur, April 5, 1975 : 750405CC.MAY :

So we have to go through like that. As Caitanya-caritāmṛta Kar is explaining, we have to follow this principle. Then if you are really inquisitive to learn the Absolute Truth, they will explain, as here it is explained that here Advaita Ācārya is īśvara, He's incarnation of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Sometimes Advaita Ācārya is called Sadāśiva avatāra. The Sadāśiva is also expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So either way you say, incarnation of Sadāśiva or Mahā-Viṣṇu, it doesn't matter. But Advaita Ācārya is īśvara-tattva. He's not śakti-tattva. He's īśvara-tattva. And we are all śakti-tattva; therefore there is difference. Śakti-śaktimān. Although there is no difference abhinna, but still, śakti-tattva is superior, er, śaktimān tattva is superior than śakti-tattva.

 

Lectures : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures : Adi-lila: Lectures : Adi 1: Lectures : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.12 -- Mayapur, April 5, 1975 : 750405CC.MAY

Caitanya Mahāprabhu is directly Kṛṣṇa, or Kṛṣṇa's incarnation. Nityānanda Prabhu is directly incarnation of Baladeva, and similarly, Śrī Advaita Prabhu is incarnation of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So all of Them are on the equal footing. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda, śrī-advaita. They are on the same equal level. And then śakti-tattva, Śrī-Gadādhara and Śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. Gadādhara is the internal energy, and Śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda, they are marginal energy. So Īśvara-tattva and śakti-tattva. So within this group, there is no this material energy because in the spiritual world there is no action of material energy, only spiritual energy

As for the bit about becoming Smaller than the Jiva, that is a poor analogy because Jiva is not just about size, it is about being a part and parcel fragment, where as no matter how small a Visnu tattva incarnation/avatara decides to become, He is still a plenary expansion with full potency.

 

The analogy of Visnu becoming smaller than Jiva is not properly symbolic for your argument because Jiva is not just about size, Jiva is about being a fragmental part and parcel, thus not able to display all potencies. As small as Visnu may become, even smaller than Jiva, he still retains full potency.

Adi 3.71 : PURPORT : om purnam adah purnam idam purnat purnam udacyate purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate : In the category of viṣṇu-tattva there is no loss of power from one expansion to the next