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Posts posted by andy108


    No, it is not my call. It is the call of the leaders of this movement that Prabhupada chose and trained. He picked the lineup and they are the ones who play the game. I am just commenting on their performance as the game unfolds. So far it was not a very good show.


    I find alot of good from their poor showing. We are shown what not to do. We are shown the results of not actually following the verbatim instructions of the Acarya who gives the training.


    In addition, what escapes you is that Srila Prabhupada designed things so that all of his instructions and training would be there to be recognized understood digested and assimilated by anyone who was not present then.


    I learned arcana through writings on the internet.


    I am learned in his instructions because he insisted that his conversations, lectures, etc be meticulously recorded for posterity.


    Thus the true leaders of his actual movement are not represented by the cheaters who claim such who have rejected his orders. They are simply the leaders of the Western version of the Gaudiya Matha.


    No the true leaders are taking in his Vani, learning from the mistakes of the cheaters, and slowly recognizing one another and coming together despite all odds to execute his true desire. By the book. No speculation necessary.


    Why do you ritviks transform every other thread into a diksa debate????


    Because if unqualified neophyte devotees would stop considering themselves qualified to initiate and give their own neophyte speculative opinion as to what instructions meet time place and circumstance, and just be the kind of Siksa Guru's Bhaktivedanta Swami wanted them to be, there wouldn't be the problems there are today.


    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top"> Here is Srila Prabhupada simple explanation on this very ridiculously simple and obvious issue of guru; the "who" and the "How" of it all.


    CC Madhya LIla Chapter 7 verse 128


    "Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.”





    This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness...one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam...One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life." (Cc Madhya Chapter 7 128-130)


    So clearly, the instruction is for many siksa, or instructing, gurus, not more diksa gurus. This is further explained by Srila Prabhupada:


    "So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, then you become guru, simply by carrying these words. Amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home." (SP Darshan, December 3rd 1976)


    "Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Krsna has said." Just see how simplified. Don't talk anything nonsense. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child." (SP Conversation, January 25th 1977)


    So anyone can become a "local guru" - even a foolish man, an unqualified man or a child. And if anyone is interested in following Srila Prabhupada's instructions in this matter, he will heed the warning: "It is best not to accept any disciples."


    Srila Prabhupada also gave the following warning in his 1961 Vyasa Puja offering:


    "If everyone just initiates then there will only be a contradictory result. As long as it goes on, there will be only failure."


    "One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided."


    The truth is that all such Siksa Guru Spiritual Masters who would follow Srila Prabhupada's orders and sadhana system, cent per cent, would be disciplining the new disciples and practically speaking the new initiates would be disciples of these Siksa Gurus.


    Yet also, in reality, because of the transcendental potency of the Acarya and his very authorized words on the subject, each new disciple initiated through a ritvik priest would become his Granddisciple, as he once mentioned. He was to remain the initiating Diksa Guru in Iskcon.


    Following this program removes the possibility of a neophyte receiving the elaborate Guru puja given to Saksad Hari Uttama Disksa Gurus. Among other things. Including that everyone is considered first and foremost a disciple of the Grandfather PitaMaha Founder-Acarya, and then a disciple of the Siksa Guru who helps him understand their Varna and Asrama, how to engage in public Sankirtana, how to engage in Arcana, cook and distribute Prasadam, and tells him which books to read.


    The Siksa Guru has a very simple and limited range of instructions for a reason, so as not to become a micromanager of every breath a new disciple takes.


    The control freaks who need undue adoration among us hate this concept, want someone a their beck and call and waiting with baited breath for every command from their garbage mouth.


    It is quite a shame.





    And this was good how? His disciples were so poorly trained that they made up all sorts of bogus philosophies and bogus practices even when Prabhupada was still with them. And when Prabhupada left, they promptly transformed his mission into a total sham. Today you ritviks rightly criticize current "jet-lag gurus" because they fly here and there and never have time to properly train their disciples. Prabhupada did not train up very well even his leading disciples, what to speak of the rank and file members.


    True colors. Sorry Kula, not even you can train someones free-will to choose to love and respect you and accept that training to be a means of spiritual purification instead of a system to use to subjugate others.


    Also, you neglect the fact that some were trained quite well, and have bided their time, training maybe one or two loyal and honest disciples. They may not have a huge public profile, yet, but considering all the properties and resources were stolen and now unavailable, patience is required no?



    Prabhupada had no choice but to try to train his disciples from afar - he was trying to start Mahaprabhu's movement in the West, translate books, etc. But that does not mean that this strategy did not have an inherent risk. It was a compromise, a risk Prabhupada took for the sake of Lord Caitanya's mission - not a practice to be followed from now on.


    YOU do not decide what is to be done within the asrama of Bhaktivedanta Swami "from now on" according to your whim. That is not your call. Don't kid yourself, or others, that is a waste of your time and theirs.


    Just look at what he said to do, if you care, and represent that. Or find another mission to give your speculative armchair commentary on, since you obviously don't have the stuff to create your own.


    Yes, I agree with you prabhu, but I also want to bring up the point that Suchandra prabhu was mentioning earlier. That it is possible to accept "diksha" from a guru who is not on the planet, I disagree, because clearly the scripture delineates the relationship of guru/sisya and one that is a mutual agreement, between two living embodied souls. The Guru accepts the disciple after the disciple accepts the authority of the guru. It is a two way road, that is what regulates the process of accepting a guru/disciple. There can only be reciprocation through the formality of diksha between the two when they are both alive and breathing. What to speak of the actual performance of the yajna, which is supposed to be performed in the presence of the guru?

    All what you say here is based upon the delusion that we are our bodies.


    Bhaktivedanta Swami never met many of his disciples. Never ever. They never looked one another in the eye, body to body. And he most certainly was never present in his physical body at their Initiation Yajnas.


    He accepted these disciples by authorizing those he trusted to accept them on his behalf. For many years he did this while he circled the globe. He gave these disciples a taperecording of him chanting the mantra and had his disciples play it in the aspirants right ear.


    The part in sastra which demands mutual examination was successfully fulfilled because B.Swami decided that HIS AUTHORIZED CRITERIA for examining a potential disciple was that those he trusted examine the aspirant in his absence. If his disciples observed the new aspirant and decided they met the criteria, that was good enough for B.Swami and he accepted thousands of disciples that way, and never ever met them once.


    Those disciples doing this work as deputies also informed the aspirant that this was the process, so the aspirant could examine that part of their prospective Guru, and decide if they could live with that or not.


    This is historical fact.


    Another historical fact is that when asked by his senior disciples how initiations would be conducted in his society when he would "no longer be with them", he formalized this system of officiating through deputies in writing and asked that no changes be made.


    End of story.


    You misunderstood my question of why. I felt that upon speaking of Saraswati Thakura I was broadening the base of Saraswati's Succession. It certainly wasn't a trap, and I agree with the overall gist of your comment, but wondered why you specified disciples of Swami Prabhupada. I wondered if there was an inherent "exclusivity" in your remark. I was not trying to find a contradiction, simply wondering the reason for the perceived exclusivity. That is all. Cheers


    It is true that it is good advice to the neophyte to remain at a respectful distance, because that implies SOME proximity and awareness of the glories of Radha-Kunda.


    You were right that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati made greater emphasis on gosthanandi preaching, and focus on Saranagati.


    I need to make a point here and to do so we must bear in mind that the topic of this thread is to explore the instances where Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was encouraging his disciples to consider Manjari Bhava. This would be something for more advanced disciples to consider and perhaps give some focus upon when the time was right.


    You inserted some truth in your post, yet it was somewhat non-sequitur to the topic and slightly contrarian. So I tried to harmonize your point anyway and then you actually did as so many do and question a perceived exclusivity.


    When what I posted was keeping with the topic, those taking discipline from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. "HIS TEACHINGS" is the topic. Anyone taking his teachings to heart is his disciple.


    Of course it is likely that the activities I listed are probably instructed by other Bhaktas in the Gaudiya Line, "Advanced Sankirtana devotees" alone would have sufficed, so I really didn't need to say "and disciples of Bhaktivedanta Swami."


    Why only of "Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami"?




    First, I did not say ONLY, but I used his disciples of his as the example in response to YOUR post which said.



    Originally Posted by Narasingh

    And yet, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati chose to "remain distanced respectfully from Radha Kunda, so as not to disturb the residents." Prabhupada also maintained this standard.



    Wherein you were finding a possible contradiction in Sonics post.


    Wherein you were implying that Sonics reference to the NOD Ch.11 commentary might be encouraging something that was simultaneously NOT encouraged by either Bhaktivedanta Swami or his Guru.


    It was a good catch.


    But you only found the contradiction, while not offering a harmonious solution.


    So I pointed out that a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami, upon reading that NOD commentary, could take its essence, and I described how that could be done, while simultaneously fulfilling the precautions you alluded to.


    Of course this could apply to anyone who considers Bhaktivedanta Swami as one of his Siksa Gurus. And who would take what Bhaktivednata's Guru instructed as relevant as well.


    Of course such a person would Also be a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami would he not?


    Of course. Unless you were just trying to neglect my offering by painting me some kind of fanatic, after baiting a trap.


    But there is no trap that can hold a mind broadened by my Srila Prabhupada.


    And yet, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati chose to "remain distanced respectfully from Radha Kunda, so as not to disturb the residents." Prabhupada also maintained this standard.

    The mission of Mahaprabhu is a simultaneous one. As Sarasvati Thakura saw it, it has less to do with taking up "residence" at Radha Kunda than it does with saranagati and Brhat Mrdanga Seva.


    Of course, an advanced sankirtana devotee and disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami, while outwardly maintaining all the rules and regs, engaging in daily harinama, arcana seva, distributing prasadam and books, etc, can live at radha kunda by reading about and remembering the pasttimes there at any time of day.


    So, in the evolution from sakhya-rasa to madhurya-rasa there is no loss of the sakhya-rasa.

    It does not go away, but something more and better is added to it.


    It's not like the sakhya-rasa devotee become dissatisfied and rejects his rasa for another one.

    No, he advances in love of Krsna and the sakhya-rasa evolves into vatsalya-rasa and then later into madhurya-rasa keeping all the previous rasas intact.


    Very nice service Sonic.


    Srila Prabhupada guided you to find all the right quotes to back up the theory and it is just ecstatic to see.


    I am now remembering my intuitions on this subject, and contemplating the mechanisms by which these advances occur, and I am certain that one of the transcendental uses of the pastimes manifest in the "material world" is to facilitate these changes.


    For those who are having a hard time accepting Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's purports as Sastra, I would refer them to the article describing Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's quest to defend his Guru's translations of Sanskrit to English, the reknowned Sanskrit scholar he contacted, and their sublime realizations.


    My advice to anyone who is wrestling with contradictions is to, upon encountering a contradiction, immediately repeat three times...


    "simultaneously one, yet different".


    This philosophy applies across the board to harmonize any and all contradictions.


    Always remember that Lord Krsna has the capability to facilitate any and all possibilites. Any desire a pure devotee can conceive is already being arranged because it reflects the fulfillment of Krsna's desire also.


    NOD ch. 42




    So, the statement "may develop into conjugal love" seems to be referring to the person and not the different kinds of rasa.


    If it was not in reference to the devotee, then it would most certainly develop into conjugal love as far as the different kinds of rasa and their stages of intensity are concerned.


    The ringer.


    Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says that Narada is both sadhana and nitya-siddha. Therefore, in one incarnation he has shown the way of vaidhi sadhana over two lives, but he himself in a nitya-siddha.


    As for Srivasa Thakura, he presides over tatastha-sakti. That doesn't mean he is tatatsha-sakti.


    As for Radharani being the only one to control Krsna, Narayana Maharaja mentions that as the manjaris are representatives of Radharani, they also control Krsna.


    Otherwise, this is cute and all, but its really forced. I'd rather take the natural conclusion.

    So it does not matter a whit if one remembers or not, we are all nitya siddhas.


    Therefore every nitya siddha, whose siddha-swarupa is pre-existing, pre-determined, and irrevocably set in stone, can accidentally come under the spell of Maha-Maya.


    Just look at the world, there are billions of these occurances right in front of our eyes.


    They might then hear of the possibility of attaining the position of topmost complete spiritual surrender, that which brings the Supreme Personality and his part and parcel the most intimate and intense feelings of ecstacy through loving exchanges and moods of separation.


    But if that person hears of such things, they may not be attracted to that position because they are not in that position eternally.


    Their taste for awe and reverence is just too overwhelming, and they have no desire to investigate what is said to be the most intense ecstatic reciprocations with God.


    And the argument could be used for all of us, once we have completed Vaidhi sadhana, which only occurs technically by Krpa, that we were and always have been just like Narada, a nitya siddha who just seemed to engage in Vaidhi sadhana, but was never really conditioned.


    TLC ch.1

    Active interest in Kṛṣṇa-the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is mine or that I am Kṛṣṇa's, and that therefore my business is to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa-is typical of a higher stage than the neutrality of the śānta-rasa. Simply by understanding the greatness of Kṛṣṇa, one can achieve the status of śānta-rasa, in which the worshipable object may be the impersonal Brahman or Paramātmā. Worship of the impersonal Brahman and the Paramātmā is conducted by those engaged in empiric philosophical speculation and mystic yoga. However, when one develops even further in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or spiritual understanding, he can appreciate that the Paramātmā, the Supersoul, is the eternal worshipable object, and he surrenders unto Him. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (Bg. 7.19): "After many, many births of worshiping Brahman and Paramātmā, when one surrenders unto Vāsudeva as the supreme master and accepts himself as the eternal servitor of Vāsudeva, he becomes a great transcendentally realized soul." At that time, due to his thick and thin relationship with the Supreme Absolute Truth, one begins to render some sort of transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus the neutral relationship known as śānta-rasa is transformed into dāsya-rasa, servitorship...


    ...The Lord instructed Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī to write the transcendental literature named Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, the science of devotional service, and indicate therein the substance of these five transcendental relationships. It is explained in that great literature how the transcendental relationship of śānta-rasa, taking the shape of unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa, is further developed into dāsya-rasa with the spirit of service, and then to sakhya-rasa or undeterred fraternity, and further to the transcendental platform of paternal love, wherein one feels himself to be maintaining the Lord. All these relationships culminate on the highest platform of conjugal love (madhura-rasa), wherein all these transcendental relationships exist simultaneously.

    <table><tbody><tr><td width="5%">


    </td><td width="90%">


    Room Conversation July 19, 1973 - London

    Revatīnandana: That I understand. The question is suppose this yogi, he has not got full knowledge, he does not know of Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he is meditating on Paramātmā, and he attains Vaikuṇṭha. Is it possible that because he hadn't got full knowledge...

    Prabhupāda: No, he has to go, simply by Paramātmā conception, he cannot go to Vaikuṇṭha.

    Revatīnandana: Can he later go on from Vaikuṇṭha to Goloka? Can that happen also?

    Prabhupāda: Yes, there is such instances, can go.



    The thousands of Laxmis are likened to the innumerable Vishnus which Brahma saw by the Darshana of Krsna. They are qualitatively as Laxmi, but Laxmidevi is Narayanas eternal consort.


    As Krsna says B.G.4.11 He reciprocates with those as they approach Him. The Gopis are those who posess that bhava of losing all control of themselves by the sound of Krsna's flute even at the cost of societal condemnation. Laxmi posesses a different bhava. That is all.


    This is similar to the subjective differences of sakhya bhava and sakhi bhava in the other thread. One may be seen as less than the other from a neutral standpoint, but when bhava is gifted, there is no question of it not being right for you.


    There are just as many quotes saying that we have a choice.


    It is also not a matter of a bhava "not being right" or rejection in the mundane sense of being dissatisfied, but a total satisfaction which then may transform and expand with added ecstasy.


    Or else why would Uddhava even have the desire to take the foot dust of the gopis so much as to desire to take birth as a clump of grass that might be under their feet some day?


    As above so below.


    Each misunderstanding we have of increase of ecstasy has a pure and true counterpart in the spiritual world.


    What would be the use of so many acaryas objectively analyzing and delineating the rasas, claiming levels of superiority, increasing and more complete tastes and ecstasies?


    What a fruitless exercise according to the no-change Vadis.


    Yup, everyone in Vaikuntha, despite the evidence, is never to get the chance to experience the completeness of ecstatic love of God uninhibited by awe and reverence.


    Why? Just to be on the winning side of a debate?


    he hit the skids running, hes not a lazy idiot like his predecessor. Hes got the hardest job ever, and I wish him well. My only hope is that he prosecutes the previous administration for their teachery. Ive had enough of the "preserve the integrity of the position of the presidency" philosophy of gerald ford, because preservation sometimes means sandblasting, recladding, and complete overhaul when a system fails so miserably. Without prosecution of traitors to the US Constitution, no matter what position they held, nothing prevents repetition, as we learned from fords failure to hold nixon responsible for his treason. Nixon was so minor to the chaney-bush crimes.


    At least, get the bucks back, crush those contractors guilty of gross fraud at the expense of tens of thousands of lives of innocents, may of them our own (USA) citizens.




    The Bush administration was the stealth bomber. Under the guise of Conservative Republicanism these misguided Neo-cons were able to get the first leg of the body of speculative Facist Socialist-communism in the door.


    The head and body of which have been gradually seen through the peephole of that door ever since the misguided Andrew Jackson began his economic speculations, Lincoln "forced" a union, and Wilson created the creature from Jekyl Island.


    These successive misguided mini-tyrants have set the final stages of anti-consititutional NWO facism into play.


    Allowing for the behemoth to take the next step and fully arrive on the scene as the second shoe hits the ground running with Barky Obama.


    Obama and his toadies (Carter/Clintonistas redux) are the full incarnation of godless liberal faux "compassion" and thus anti-Americanism.


    You are in for a rude awakening.


    I guess once a hippie liberal, always a hippie liberal?


    Chant more maybe that will snap you out of it.


    Laxmidevi views Narayan as Her husband, not God. She is attached to that relationship and Narayan is as well. This is what hampers Her entrance into rasa-lila. Even though She knows full well that Krsna is non-different from Narayana, still something inside Her doesn't like the idea of "cheating" and She can't bring herself to follow through with Her desires. It is Her glorification of Srimati Radharani.


    According to the Acaryas, there is still awe and reverence in Vaikuntha, therefore my use of "God" is correct in this application.


    Yet your point of how she sees him as husband adds to the complexity.


    The gopis had husbands who they loved and respected.


    Krsna appreciates the higher ecstasies generated from the complete wholesale wanton surrender of those with husbands. It is a more intense experience according to the scriptures.


    Don't forget, we are told there are thousands of Laksmis in Goloka.


    It seems there are some wives of Lord Narayana who just can't help themselves. After all the austerities and penances, the guilt and staunch morality of the rules, Krsna's all attractiveness tips the scales.



    As for the "curses due to accidental offenses". I've considered that these are Lila as well as the adventing on Earth.

    I concur, and Bhaktivedanta Swami does also in his purports to the story of Jaya and Vijaya, and cursing of Tulsi by Sri Radha.


    What about the story of Gopa-Kumar.

    I find it fascinating that contemporary Gaudiya Vaishnavism almost never counts Vaikuntha, Narayan's abode as having much bearing. However, the fact that there are eternal parshads in Vaikuntha coupled with the fact that Gopa-Kumar passed through Vaikuntha on his way to sakhya bhava lila with Krsna, should indicate that svarupa is potentially mutable. Also that there are kundas in Vrndavan dham capabaple of bestowing gopi svarup...


    It would be better to say that while a svarup may be right for one, another may be changed if it supports Lila.


    According to those like Sukhada the conclusion can only be...


    There is one Goloka Vrndavana. There is Krsna and Radha. There are a few expanding concentric circles of confidential friends and their younger servants who are X in number.


    Meanwhile, in Jagat after Jagat, Sri Krsna Caitanya and Prabhu Nityananda are sending their Rupa and his confidential servants to awakening an infinite number of sleeping Jivas to their siddha-swarupa.


    These fortunate Jivas purify through sadhana and awaken to their already transcendentally pre-existing and pre-set relationship with Krsna.


    So the result is that untold millions of Jivas are then all merging into one of a few scores of associates.


    Then those associates are... falling back into delusory maya in order to go through vaidhi and then raganuga sadhana and awaken to their pre-existing but forgotton eternal relationship.


    And then they fall back into maya. And they are you and me perhaps, waiting to have it revealed to us that we are actually manjaris.


    I wonder how long we get to serve as manjaris before we forget the supreme ecstasy and make a beeline for the next boat across the Varaja River for some steak and fries.


    Sign me up.


    Very interesting topic.

    I am hoping to see you develop this topic more and more.

    Very nice.

    Free thinking.

    Drink from the fountain of truth and share the news.

    Did you ever, in a moment of independent thought...



    Bombay 22 December, 1972:

    Srila Prabhupada :Krishna Consciousness Movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent in all types of departments of knowledge and action, not for making bureaucracy.

    ... think about how...


    during the manifest lila in Gokula, the participants are born and grow old (up to their maximum age), which is a different experience than in Goloka?


    How there are new sadhana siddha associates as well as veteran nitya siddhas all being born into the earthly lila at the same time?


    How eternal nitya siddha associates living in the spiritual world are sometimes cursed due to accidental offenses and come down to earth for Lila, some forgetting who they were in the spiritual world (complements of Yoga Maya). And how then they are enabled to relate with Krsna and his devotees in a fresh and different way?


    How devotees who have become purified of material desires still have spontaneous selfish desires. Yet those desires just happen to lead to activities that are perfectly pleasing and fulfilling of Krsna's desires?


    This is the bottom line for me.

    I pretty much take this as the safest position as opposed to going willy-nilly into a sakhya-rasa conclusion.


    At the is point, I guess I will stop being a disturbance to this topic.


    Good luck with the book and the topic Babhru.



    As another independent thinker, and still a happy camper, I am out the door of this topic as well, but as a parting gift, here are a couple more conclusions from Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada for those frozen in motion on this issue to chew on. Be sure to chew thoroughly before swallowing so you digest it properly.


    Key Concept = Madhurya Rasa INCLUDES Sakhya.



    CC Antya 1.152 : PURPORT : Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is speaking this verse (Vidagdha-mādhava 2.41) to Her intimate friend Viśākhādevī.



    CC Adi 10.134 : PURPORT : The Gaura-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā (120-24) states that Rāmānanda Rāya was formerly Arjuna. He is also considered to have been an incarnation of the gopī Lalitā, although in the opinion of others he was an incarnation of Viśākhādevī.


    CC Madhya 2.78 : PURPORT

    Paramānanda Purī is said to have been Uddhava in Vṛndāvana. His affections with Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu were on the platform of paternal love. This was because Paramānanda Purī happened to be the Godbrother of the spiritual master of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Similarly, Rāmānanda Rāya, who is considered an incarnation of Arjuna and by some an incarnation of Viśākhādevī, enjoyed unalloyed fraternal love with the Lord. Unalloyed personal service was enjoyed by Govinda and others. In the presence of His most confidential devotees like Gadādhara Paṇḍita, Jagadānanda and Svarūpa Dāmodara, Caitanya Mahāprabhu enjoyed the ecstatic conditions of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī in Her conjugal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Absorbed in these four transcendental mellows, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu resided in Jagannātha Purī, feeling very much obliged to His devotees.

    Hare Krsna


    ...and they will choose according to their inner nature. gHari proposed that it's "like another Crow and Tal Fruit debate," and here is the exact instance where he is proven correct. At what point did the jiva fall? At what point did choice come into play if we already have an internal swarupa [in seed form]? Here is where the topics become one, or at least interrelated. And if you look closely you will see that it deeply intertwined with who is guru, and who can become guru or even a sannyasi or brahmana?


    This is a good point. I point this simultaneous snafu out in the thread I just created about rebirth and rasa.


    Sonic has posted very pointed evidence on this very page regarding one side of the equation.


    He has not denied the other side. Most of the devotees posting on this thread have been wholesale in denial of the side Sonic so eloquently points out.


    Inconceivable, yet we can look at both sides of the truth of the issue and catch a glimpse and taste some nectar.


    If you just want to be "right" about something, there are plenty of mundane universities who will give you a phd and professorship on some mundane subject matter to fulfill one's desire for exclusive mundand fame adoration and distinction.


    Babhru's essay has the potential to stimulate expansive realization, yet as all things it also can be used by fanatics who will interpret it to take a stance and bludgeon others with it.


    And so it goes.

  18. Laksmi devi is attracted to Lord Krsna. She thinks she knows who he is. That is a problem that stymies her getting close...



    In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that no one can receive the real favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead without following in the footsteps of the gopīs. Even the goddess of fortune could not receive the same favor as the gopīs, although she underwent severe austerities and penances for many years. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu discusses this point with Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa in Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 9.111–131): “The Lord inquired from Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa, ‘Your worshipable goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, always remains on the chest of Nārāyaṇa, and she is certainly the most chaste woman in the creation. However, My Lord is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, a cowherd boy engaged in tending cows. Why is it that Lakṣmī, being such a chaste wife, wants to associate with My Lord? Just to associate with Kṛṣṇa, Lakṣmī abandoned all transcendental happiness in Vaikuṇṭha and for a long time accepted vows and regulative principles and performed unlimited austerities.’

    “Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa replied, ‘Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Nārāyaṇa are one and the same, but the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are more relishable due to their sportive nature. They are very pleasing for Kṛṣṇa’s śaktis. Since Kṛṣṇa and Nārāyaṇa are both the same personality, Lakṣmī’s association with Kṛṣṇa did not break her vow of chastity. Rather, it was in great fun that the goddess of fortune wanted to associate with Lord Kṛṣṇa. The goddess of fortune considered that her vow of chastity would not be damaged by her relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Rather, by associating with Kṛṣṇa she could enjoy the benefit of the rāsa dance. If she wanted to enjoy herself with Kṛṣṇa what fault is there? Why are you joking so about this?’

    “Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, ‘I know that there is no fault in the goddess of fortune, but still she could not enter into the rāsa dance. We hear this from revealed scriptures. The authorities of Vedic knowledge met Lord Rāmacandra in Daṇḍakāraṇya, and by their penances and austerities, they were allowed to enter into the rāsa dance. But can you tell me why the goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, could not get that opportunity? ’

    “To this Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa replied, ‘I cannot enter into the mystery of this incident. I am an ordinary living being. My intelligence is limited, and I am always disturbed. How can I understand the pastimes of the Supreme Lord? They are deeper than millions of oceans.’

    “Lord Caitanya replied, ‘Lord Kṛṣṇa has a specific characteristic. He attracts everyone’s heart by the mellow of His personal conjugal love. By following in the footsteps of the inhabitants of the planet known as Vrajaloka or Goloka Vṛndāvana, one can attain the shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. However, the inhabitants of that planet do not know that Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unaware that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the residents of Vṛndāvana like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodādevī and the gopīs treat Kṛṣṇa as their beloved son or lover. Mother Yaśodā accepts Him as her son and sometimes binds Him to a grinding mortar. Kṛṣṇa’s cowherd boy friends think He is an ordinary boy and get up on His shoulders. In Goloka Vṛndāvana no one has any desire other than to love Kṛṣṇa.’ ”

    The conclusion is that one cannot associate with Kṛṣṇa unless he has fully received the favor of the inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi. Therefore if one wants to be delivered by Kṛṣṇa directly, he must take to the service of the residents of Vṛndāvana, who are unalloyed devotees of the Lord.


    But somehow...



    Bg 8.21 : PURPORT :

    The supreme abode of the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is described in the Brahma-saṁhitā as cintāmaṇi-dhāma, a place where all desires are fulfilled. The supreme abode of Lord Kṛṣṇa known as Goloka Vṛndāvana is full of palaces made of touchstone. There are also trees which are called "desire trees" that supply any type of eatable upon demand, and there are cows known as surabhi cows which supply a limitless supply of milk. In this abode, the Lord is served by hundreds of thousands of goddesses of fortune (Lakṣmīs), and He is called Govinda, the primal Lord and the cause of all causes.

    So how did she get there?



    CC Adi 4.21-22 Purport

    Flawless execution of regulative principles is exhibited in the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By strictly executing these principles one can be elevated to the Vaikuṇṭha planets. But spontaneous pure loving service is found in Kṛṣṇaloka alone.

    TLC 15: Explanation of the Atmarama Verse in Srimad Bhagavatam :

    The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Absolute Truth, but He is manifested by the expansions of His different energies also. Those who follow the regulative principles of devotional service ultimately attain the Vaikuṇṭha planets in the spiritual world, but one who follows the principles of love in devotional service attains to the supreme abode, the highest planet in the spiritual world known as Kṛṣṇaloka or Goloka Vṛndāvana.




    Letter to Rupanuga 1968.

    So Krishna Consciousness includes Vaikuntha consciousness, but Vaikuntha consciousness does not include Krishna Consciousness. Those who are strictly following the rules and regulations of Vaisnava activities, they are promoted to Vaikuntha lokas. But those who have developed a spontaneous love for Krishna, they are promoted to the Krishna Loka. Therefore, although Krishna Consciousness includes Vaikuntha consciousness, pure Krishna Consciousness is spontaneous love for Krishna without any regulative principles. The idea can be explained that a young boy or a young girl are spontaneously attracted, without following any regulative principles previously. When one develops such spontaneous love for God, that is called pure Krishna Consciousness. In our conditioned life, we have forgotten our relationship with God, but by regulative principles, we can make alert the inert activities. Just like a rheumatic crippled man is gradually elevated by some bodily exercises. Similarly, the regulative principles are to make us habituated to our dormant service attitude, but when that is mature, it becomes spontaneous, and that is pure Krishna Consciousness. And such highly elevated Consciousness makes one eligible to enter into the Krishna Loka. The living example for much spontaneous love are exhibited by the Gopis and inhabitants of Vrindaban.


    Will Jaya and Vijaya ever gain any deeper understanding of the glories of their Lord? Will they ever have the chance to develop "complete devotion" and the highest ecstatic exchanges in Goloka?


    Will Bhismadeva? He went to Vaikuntha after fighting Krsna. But he got a glimpse of Krsna.


    Did Laxmi learn from the fact that all her austerities weren't enought to get to Krsna? And get a chance to take birth in a situation where she can develop spontaneous love without a "god complex" getting in the way?



    Los Angeles, February 21, 1969 : 690221BG.LA : Devotee: You mentioned that the gopas, Kṛṣṇa's friends, are playing with Him and they are said to have done very much pious deeds in their past lives. I understand that they are eternal associates...

    Prabhupāda: No, some of them are eternal associates, some of them are promoted to that eternal association. Suppose if you go and become an associate, playmate of Kṛṣṇa. So your position also becomes, now, eternal. If simply the eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa can play with Him, not others, then what is the meaning of your becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? You can become also. How? By pious deeds of many, many lives. You can also become promoted to that position. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11]. Actually in the bhauma Vṛndāvana in this material world, the Vṛndāvana, mostly the associates of Kṛṣṇa are these conditioned living entities who are promoted to that Kṛṣṇa conscious perfectional stage. They are first of all allowed to see Kṛṣṇa in the planet where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes is going on. And then they are promoted to the transcendental Vṛndāvana. Therefore it is said in the Bhāgavata: kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. They are all promoted. But even they are promoted, they are now eternal associates. Is it clear? Hare Kṛṣṇa..


    Madhya 20.397



    "The eternal pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are continuously taking place in the original Goloka Vṛndāvana planet. These same pastimes are gradually manifest within the material world, in each and every brahmāṇḍa.


    Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura elucidates this complicated explanation of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Kṛṣṇa's appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe. After His killing of Pūtanā is manifest in this universe, it is next manifest in another universe. Thus all the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are eternally existing both in the original Goloka Vṛndāvana planet and in the material universes. The 125 years calculated in our solar system to be Kṛṣṇa's lifetime equal one moment for Kṛṣṇa. One moment these pastimes are manifest in one universe, and the next moment they are manifest in the next universe. There are unlimited universes, and Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are manifest one moment after the other in all of them. This rotation is explained through the example of the sun's moving across the sky. Kṛṣṇa appears and disappears in innumerable universes, just as the sun appears and disappears during the day. Although the sun appears to rise and set, it is continuously shining somewhere on the earth. Although Kṛṣṇa's pastimes seem to appear and disappear, they are continuously existing in one brahmāṇḍa (universe) or another. Thus all of Kṛṣṇa's līlās are present simultaneously throughout the innumerable universes. By our limited senses we cannot appreciate this; therefore Kṛṣṇa's eternal pastimes are very difficult for us to understand. One should try to understand how they are taking place by understanding the allegory of the sun. Although the Lord is appearing constantly in the material universes, His pastimes are eternally present in the original Goloka Vṛndāvana. Therefore these pastimes are called nitya-līlā (eternally present pastimes). Because we cannot see what is going on in other universes, it is a little difficult for us to understand how Kṛṣṇa is eternally manifesting His pastimes. There are fourteen Manus in one day of Brahmā, and this time calculation is also taking place in other universes. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are manifest before fourteen Manus expire. Although it is a little difficult to understand the eternal pastimes of Kṛṣṇa in this way, we must accept the verdict of Vedic literatures.


    There are two types of devotees-the sādhaka, who is preparing for perfection, and the siddha, who is already perfect. As far as those who are already perfect are concerned, Bhagavad-gītā says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so 'rjuna: "After giving up this material body, such a devotee comes to Me." After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth in the womb of a gopī on a planet where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi, which is commented upon by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are taking place. Kṛṣṇa's eternal associates go wherever Kṛṣṇa manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of Kṛṣṇa appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Kṛṣṇa and His other associates.


    Krsna Book 2-35

    Some of the demigods were also asked to appear on this earth to assist in the transcendental pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa. When Kṛṣṇa appeared, He came in the association of His eternal servitors, but the demigods also were requested to come down to assist Him, and thus all of them took their births in the Yadu dynasty. The Yadu dynasty had 101 clans in different parts of the country. All the members of these different clans respected Lord Kṛṣṇa in a manner befitting His divine position, and all of them were His devotees heart and soul. Thus all the members of the Yadu dynasty were very opulent, happy and prosperous, and they had no anxieties. Because of their implicit faith in and devotion to Lord Kṛṣṇa, they were never defeated by any other kings. Their love of Kṛṣṇa was so intense that in their regular activities--in sitting, sleeping, traveling, talking, sporting, cleansing and bathing--they were simply absorbed in thoughts of Kṛṣṇa and paid no attention to bodily necessities. That is the symptom of a pure devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Just as when a man is fully absorbed in some particular thought, he sometimes forgets his other bodily activities, so the members of the Yadu dynasty acted automatically for their bodily necessities, but their actual attention was always fixed on Kṛṣṇa. Their bodily activities were performed mechanically, but their minds were always absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

    Some eternal associates appear with Krsna in Gokula.


    Some demigods do as well..


    Some conditioned souls just awakening to their siddha swarupa are born into Gopi wombs.


    In Gokula the Gopis realize they are in the material realm, as they complain to Lord Brahma about the quality of his creation in terms of the eyelids in the bodies they inhabit.


    Gokula serves many purposes.


    It sounds like Krsna is adding to his number of eternal associates. How can he do that? According to some, the number of his eternal associates in Goloka is fixed.


    ------------- --------------- --------------


    How about this next series of twists and turns?



    CC Antya 11.25 purport

    Haridāsa Ṭhākura is known as nāmācārya because it is he who preached the glories of chanting hari-nāma, the holy name of God. By using the words tomāra avatāra ("your incarnation"), Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirms that Haridāsa Ṭhākura is the incarnation of Lord Brahmā.


    CC Adi 17.71 purport

    On the mahā-prakāśa day, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu embraced Haridāsa Ṭhākura and informed him that he was none other than an incarnation of Prahlāda Mahārāja.


    SB 7.4.40 purport

    eventually the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is worshiped by the transcendental feelings of a devotee in a relationship of śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya or mādhurya. Here the feelings of Prahlāda Mahārāja were in the mellow of vātsalya, filial love and affection.


    Prabhupada says in SB 2.9.30 that “Lord Brahma is definitely situated in the humor of friendship with the Lord...It is clearly exhibited herein that Lord Brahma is related to the Personality of Godhead in the transcendental humor of friendship.”.


    BS 5.28


    Brahmā thought thus within himself, "By the recollection of kāma-gāyatrī it seems to me that I am the eternal maidservant of Kṛṣṇa."


    Madhya 1.41 Purport


    Thus there are five waves in the dakṣiṇa-vibhāga division. In the western division (paścima-vibhāga) there is a description of the chief transcendental humors derived from devotional service. These are known as mukhya-bhakti-rasa-nirūpaṇa, or attainment of the chief humors or feelings in the execution of devotional service. In that part there is a description of devotional service in neutrality, further development in love and affection (called servitude), further development in fraternity, further development in parenthood, or parental love, and finally conjugal love between Kṛṣṇa and His devotees. Thus there are five waves in the western division.



    Madhya 23.44 : TRANSLATION

    "Just as the taste of sugar increases as it is gradually purified, one should understand that when love of Godhead increases from rati, which is compared to the beginning seed, its taste increases.




    Madhya 23.47 : Translation

    "When the permanent ecstasies [neutrality, servitorship and so on] are mixed with other ingredients, devotional service in love of Godhead is transformed and becomes composed of transcendental mellows.



    And how does one experiencing his permanent ecstasy (sthayi bhava) in servitor rasa experience his love transform and become composed of "more tasteful" transcendenal mellows? Mixing of other ingredients?


    Madhuya 23.48 :TRANSLATION

    "The permanent ecstasy becomes a more and more tasteful transcendental mellow through the mixture of special ecstasy, subordinate ecstasy, natural ecstasy and transitory ecstasy.



    Madhya 23.54 : TRANSLATION

    "The position of neutrality increases up to the point where one can appreciate love of Godhead. The mellow of servitorship gradually increases to the point of spontaneous love of Godhead



    Sounds like some real distinctions here.


    Madhya 23.55


    "After the mellow of servitorship, there are the mellows of friendship and paternal love, which increase to subordinate spontaneous love. The greatness of the love found in friends like Subala extends to the standard of ecstatic love of Godhead.



    Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura says that the mellow of neutrality increases to simple love of Godhead. In the mellow of servitorship, love of Godhead increases beyond that to affection, counter-love (anger based on love), love and attachment. Similarly, the mellow of friendship increases to affection, counter-love, love, attachment and subattachment. It is the same with the mellow of paternal affection. The special feature of the mellow of friendship exhibited by personalities like Subala is that it increases from fraternal affection to counter-love, to spontaneous attachment, to subordinate attachment, and finally to the ecstasy where all the ecstatic symptoms continuously exist.




    AS if the direct evidence of the translation of Madhya 23.54 were not enough, after reading the purport to Madhya 23.55, a reasonable person would figure that dasya rasa, not affording an individual the capacity to experience ecstasy where all the ecstatic symptoms continually exist, would be a stepping stone as previously indicated.



    Madhya 23.57


    "Only in the conjugal mellow are there two ecstatic symptoms called rūḍha [advanced] and adhirūḍha [highly advanced]. The advanced ecstasy is found among the queens of Dvārakā, and the highly advanced ecstasies are found among the gopīs.


    The adhirūḍha ecstasies are explained in the Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi:




    rūḍhoktebhyo 'nubhāvebhyaḥ

    kām apy āptā viśiṣṭatām

    yatrānubhāvā dṛśyante

    so 'dhirūḍho nigadyate



    The very sweet attraction of conjugal love increases through affection, counter-love, love, attachment, subattachment, ecstasy and highly advanced ecstasy (mahābhāva). The platform of mahābhāva includes rūḍha and adhirūḍha. These platforms are possible only in conjugal love. Advanced ecstasy is found in Dvārakā, whereas highly advanced ecstasy is found among the gopīs.



    Perhaps this is the reason Sri Uddhava wished to take his next birth as a clump of grass in order to get the dust of the lotus feet of the gopis.


    In the face of all the evidence, is just the height of insanity for anyone to insist that there is no method of increase in ecstasy, that one in servitor rasa in Vaikuntha can never change rasas, etc.


    Where do you get your ideas Sonic Yogi? The quote about Uddhava in no way said he wanted to become a gopi (which I think is what you were trying to establish). You can't revere and want the mercy of someone without aspiring to be the same as them? Do you think Krishna Das Babaji did not want the 'foot dust of the gopis"? Its like your Radha-Kunda idea...speculation based on a quote that says nothing of the sort.


    He desired to become only an insignificant clump of grass or herbs in the land of Vrndavana.


    Uddhava aspired to have a future birth in the position of a clump of grass and herbs.

    Sounds to me like that aspiration is a desire of a pure devotee.


    When fulfilled, he might have even less a tendency to think about the ways he used to interact with Krsna, and more aspirations and desires might arise.


    OH NO! That is out of Tattva! How dare he?


    You were speculating how Srila Prabhupada might have thought, based on nothing but a mundane calculation that because madhurya-rasa is the highest Srila Prabhupada must have been dissatisfied with his rasa and wanted to change rasas. There are two points of apasiddhanta in this speculation: 1) that someone who is situated in their sthayi-bhava would become dissatisfied with it and 2) that the sthayi-bhava can change. Thus you were saying that Srila Prabhupada would think apasiddhanta.


    By your logic, the whole of Goloka Vrindavana should be filled up with nothing but manjaris by now.


    The quotations that you posted are an objective analysis of rasa from the standpoint of tattva. They are not outlining the development of a jiva. One does not first attain santa, then dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, and finally madhurya. Once the sthayi-bhava is attained, it is sthayi (fixed). Srila Prabhupada addresses this in a conversation with Hamsaduta:


    Hamsaduta: Suppose someone is situated as Visnuduta. He may change his taste.

    Prabhupada: Why he shall change it?

    Hamsaduta: He may get a taste for associating with Krsna.

    Prabhupada: The change is taking place in this material world. There all tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with Krsna, and that will be realized when one is liberated.

    Hamsaduta: So that's fixed already.

    Prabhupada: Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krsna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family, we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relation with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Krsna... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?

    Hamsaduta: I see.

    Prabhupada: Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. Maybe some degradation, but it is palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No, that is not. Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Caitanya-caritamrta. Why don't you see?

    Hamsaduta: And Nectar of Devotion.

    Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with Krsna is the best."

    Hamsaduta: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some...

    Prabhupada: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationship with Krsna. Even the trees in Vrndavana, they want to serve Krsna silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda, everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Krsna comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment: "Oh..."



    In the Caitanya-caritamrta, Rupa and Sanatana try to convert their brother Vallabha to Krsna-bhakti from Rama-bhakti. He agreed to be initiated into the Krsna mantra, but later that night he stayed up crying at the thought of giving up Rama. He went to Rupa and Sanatana in the morning and submitted a plea to remain in the service of Rama. They become very happy and embraced him, praising him as a saintly devotee whose determination was fixed. When Sanatana told Mahaprabhu about this incident, Mahaprabhu said that he had a similar experience with Murari Gupta. After examining him, he said, “Glorious is that devotee who does not give up the shelter of his Lord, and glorious is that Lord who does not abandon His servant.”


    We must be careful not to muddy the waters of rasananda with mundane logic. Before one is able to conjecture in line with siddhanta (i.e. before thinking), one must learn to think. For this, one requires a guru to help one understand not only what the scripture says, but what it means.


    It was not based on a mundane calculation, as I proved by the purports in my post.


    Your mundane mind projected and put words in my mouth. I never mentioned that I thought Srila Prabhupada was dissatisfied.


    You have a hard time understanding Simultaneous oneness and difference, and how there are exceptions to every rule.


    In that conversation with Hamsadutta, Srila Prabhupada was doing what every good father would do and stick with the general rule so as not to disturb his growing childs mind and keep him fixed on the basics.


    And what if Vallabha had become enamored with Krsna? His brothers honored his decision, and would have done so EITHER WAY. Or are you prepared to chide Laxmi Devi for being "fickle"?


    We are presumably discussing beyond that level now, yet you continue to take a stance as if you are the father and I am the child by only citing one side of the story in order to fulfill your need to be "right".


    How boring. What a bore you are being.


    Have you ever thought about how Goloka Vrndavana accomodates the INFINITE NUMBER OF JIVAS IN THE INFINITE NUMBER OF EARTHS who are uncovering their siddha swarupa? Start there.


    Then think of how Krsna can expand himself and duplicate any scenario in an ever fresh way to accomodate the UNLIMITED TYPES OF TRANSCENDENTAL DESIRES HIS DEVOTEES HAVE in terms of how they wish to please him.


    Add that to all the evidence that alludes to the "other side of the coin" beyond the pablum appropriately fed to neophytes.


    Then step down from your self-imagined Siksa Guru status, and maybe we have a discussion going.


    There are different groups of cowherd boys, andy, with different moods and activities. The priyanarma sakhas' friendship is tinged with an appreciation for his romantic life the other boys don't share. They are sometimes under Krishna's direction, and sometimes under the direction of one of the leaders of the gopi groups. They assist by, among other things, carrying messages from Krishna to the girls so they can give them to Sri Radhika. Some of them also give him advice about his love life. Subala is the leader of this group of boys.


    I agree with you that we don't become gopis or gopas. One feature that distinguishes our line from other groups of Gaudiya vaishnavas is the understanding that we are who we are; we don't receive our siddhasvarupa from a guru, but he (or she) helps us realize that form and service. Other groups say that the guru gives you your siddha-deha, so yours must be of the same nature as the guru's. We see evidence late in Jaiva Dharma that Bhaktivinoda Thakura had a different perspective, and we members of his parivara accept that perspective.


    The idea that one becomes a manjari, gopi, cowboy, cow, parent, or whatever, strictly by association, and that the disciple must necessarily have the same kind of relationship with Krishna as the guru apparently comes from somewhere outside the influence of Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Before someone jumps on me, I'm also aware that there may certainly be unusual instances where sthayi-bhava may change, but that's not the general rule.


    I touch on some of these things in the booklet. Anyone interested in what it actually says can read it; there's no charge!


    I am reminded of how Sudama (cheif cowherd boy) desired to mate with Tulsi, and simultaneously Srimati Radharani caught Tulsi alone with Krsna in the beginnings of an intimate moment.


    They were both cursed to come to earth by Sri Radha. They remembered their births in Goloka and while on earth they performed austerities in order that they might get what they wanted. Sudama (as the Danava Demon Sankachuda) married and consorted with Tulsi for a whole lifetime, and Krsna used that to get closer to Tulsi through trickery in the end.


    So when you mention how it is not the rule, but in unusual instances ones sthayi-bhava may change, I think of how taking birth in the material deminar is used by Krsna to facilitate the progression of devotional sentiments (ie. Jaya-Vijaya, Sudama-Tulsi).


    And further, the apparent contradictions found in the research regarding Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's "identity", led me to make the leap that he could have been involved in such a progression while here, since all pure devotees are always undergoing some internal process in relation to their relationship with Radha and Krsna despite their more external reasons for being here.


    At which point I was labled as the worst of speculators.




    The Gaudiya Conception culminates with the feeling that Srimati Radharani is the only true happiness for Krsna, conjugally speaking. It is not only accepted, but appreciated. Krsna (Rasaraj) is complete with Radha (Mahabhava). Thus, in the interest of the complete spiritual pleasure of the Divine Couple, the devotee, following in the line of Svarupa Damodara, Rupa Goswami, Bhaktivinode, Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada, does not entertain the idea of anything other than arrangements for the pleasure of the Divine Couple. As the book shows, each camp, at least sakhya and manjari have their particular associates who are interested in the welfare of the Divine Couple. Thus, a sakha can assist in arrangements as well as a manjari. It looks as if you are suggesting that somehow Prabhupada has not been glorified because sakhya rasa doesn't afford intimate conjugal relations with Krsna.


    I am a little weak on the topic, but my limited understanding is less of a cowherd boys time is involved in arranging for the perfection of Krsna's intimate conjugal relations with Sri Radha than are her young manjari girlfriends who are perpetually involved in such.


    It is not a matter of Glorification. It is simply a matter of one saying that he cannot become a gopi or gopi manjari because he is eternally a cowherd boy seems, by the evidence, to be not true.


    Srila Prabhupada always spoke of ones siddha swarupa as being fixed eternally, that it is already there, and we will realize it as our material covering is removed via sadhana.


    He only touched upon the changing of rasas in rare instances, which I provided.

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