Kulapavana

Devotee Etiquette BY: SWARUP DAS Feb 24, CORRALITOS, CALIFORNIA (SUN) — I find it ironic, if not comical, the way “devotees” often communicate with each other - especially when posting on Internet forums such as this. I’ll give an example: My Dear XXXXX Prabhu, Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga. You are an ignorant fool, an offensive demon, a liar and a cheater, and I am convinced that it is your karma to suffer in hell forever and ever. I hope this finds you well. Your humble servant, XXXXXX Das So is this format, which I observe over and over, day after day, the Vedic equivalent of politically correct? http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4097.htm ---------------------- Our discussions here have become mostly just quarrels and I find myself spending a lot of time on such unproductive exchanges, probably even provoking many of them. I apologize for that. Perhaps it is time to move on for me. Dandavat pranams to you all.

Where do you see these thousands of guru wannabes? I see extremely few of them among the devotees from my generation. Granted, there are more of them among Prabhupada's disciples, as there should be, but there are not thousands of them, and they are not neophytes. Keep your pants on, yogibear... When you tell the newcomers that a 'real guru' can walk on water you are definitely setting them up for a disappointment. It is much safer to say that Prabhupada was able to walk on water because he is not around to prove you wrong. Lets make up an inspiring legend and feed it to the masses - it worked great for the Christians, did it not? What embitters people are the lies that were sold to them in their youth, when they were idealistic and gullible. Sooner or later these lies become exposed and people feel cheated. That is why people leave. Tell people the truth: the majority of Gaudiya gurus were simply advanced and experienced devotees. Now and then there were extraordinary personalities, true Acharyas, super-gurus like Srila Prabhupada, but that was always rare.

I am not in any way minimizing his responsibility for the mess he created and the real damage he has done. One of my Godbrothers comitted a suicide that can be directly linked to his falldown. However, I do not feel like he damaged me personally in any way, even as it was a very, very painful experience. I never believed in the guru fairytales as told in Iskcon or in any other fanatical and un-shastric sentimentalities sold to the new devotees about the purity and superiority of our leaders and movement in general. I knew for many years that sannyasa was a bad choice for Harikesh, just like it was a bad choice for just about everybody else. And I have seen plenty of Iskcon leaders fall down. What surprised me was how badly he fell, diving deep into real insanity. The despair of the devotees, the smashed lives, the suffering, were not just the results of one guru falling down. A good part of our movement was built on lies and half-truths, we promoted fanaticism and blind obedience to the gurus and leaders, overselling the benefits and refusing to talk about the risks. To some extent this system continues without much change today. Those who promote the ritvik reich are trying to replace a badly structured system with one that is potentially even worse, because it institutionalizes personality cult and deviations from the sampradaya practices, demanding even more fanaticism and blind obedience.

You can claim to get initiation from Srlila Vyasadeva if you think that by reading his books you are getting diksa. During initiation a consent of both parties is required by the tradition. What was good for Prabhupada and his godbrothers is good for their disciples as well. No need to invent a new system.

Just because the abuse of the position happens now and then that does not mean that a system which was always in place must be changed. Btw... I never felt that I was in any way disadvantaged by the turn of events. I have learned A LOT from that experience.

I'm asking you again: Are you saying this law does not exist and Prabhupada just made it up for Tusta? Lets be clear: This was always the Vedic practice adopted by our sampradaya since times immemorial. This is how Prabhupada himself started accepting disciples after his guru passed on. That was even before he became a sannyasi. Prabhupada can't change such a law without deviating from the sampradaya.

I have (and use frequently) at least 4 Vaishnava translations of the Gita. The differences are fairly minor IMO.

Which part of "This is the law of disciplic succession" you do not understand? You break the law, you are an apa-sampradaya. Simple.

That is a historical fact. The rest is your own foam and speculation...

No, that is an actual principle (law) of our sampradaya. You think Prabhupada made it up for Tusta? Are you calling him a liar? Prabhupada is not above that law. And changing it means becoming an apa-sampradaya.

If you knew the facts, you would have noticed I was refering to the time after SP passed away - hence the phrase 'free reign' and me being there to see it (you know when I joined) all I see in your posts is foam...

Pranams, Mahaksaji... many more happy realizations!

"As I have five thousand disciples or ten thousand, so you have ten thousand each. In this way, create branches and branches of the Caitanya tree." (Mayapur GBC meetings 1976) Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurangera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don't manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru. 770415rc.bom Conversations (15/04/1977) "But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. (SPL Tusta Krsna, December 2, 1975) "Everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread they are competent to make disciples." (Detroit, July 18, 1971) Prabhupada did not change the law of the disciplic succession.

You are seeing all kinds of things in your delusional head... The examples were there to show you that given a free-reign, even Prabhupada's disciples appointed by him to be leaders are capable of horrific actions. I do remember these days, and the shudder of repulsion I had for these people and their evil ways. Many of the cheerleaders from that time period are current GBCs. It was ignorance and fanaticism of rank and file devotees that allowed these 'leaders' to prosper, something I hope will never happen again in my lifetime. That is why I cringe every time I see fanatics with radical agendas among the devotees.

Sign of the times and writings on the wall they show me it's time has come Order of a new kind we will all find stronger than never before Things are pretty much the same like in the year sixty eight oh won't we ever learn This time is't gonna be different so let's all join our hands And let the children sing for the last time Ritvik Reich is rising can't you see the signs Ritvik Reich is rising for the last time Let's just press more lies don't worry about verification we got to have more bhaktas to carry on Misery and sorrow cannot be avoided at this point but things will be so different when we are ruling the world Ritvik Reich is rising can't you see the signs Ritvik Reich is rising for the last time what will be left to our children is this our final destiny Bhakta Stratovarius

I give up... please go back to your beer...

KK wrote that prayer for all of us, so that we will not forget what are the techings and devotional mood of our sampradaya, and so that we will not be led astray by ignorant and fanatical disciples of a particular guru.

This is another totally bogus concept, extrapolated for their political use by the Isk-CON artists <CENTER>Vandana</CENTER> <CENTER>Vande ham sri guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaisnavams ca sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathanvitam tam sa-jivam sadvaitam savadhutam parijana-sahitam krsna-caitanya-devam sri-radha-krsna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri-visakhanvitams ca</CENTER><CENTER> </CENTER>Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja prays, "First I offer my respects unto the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual masters and the recruiting spiritual masters and advanced Vaisnavas. Next I offer my obeisances to my sastra gurus, Srila Rupa Goswami, his elder brother, Srila Sanatana Goswami, Srila Raghunatha dasa Goswami, and Jiva Goswami. On a higher platform I offer my respects unto Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who came with his paraphernalia and associates, along with those great personalities Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Advaita Acharyya. And in the highest stage, I offer my obeisances unto the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha and Govinda, and all of the gopis, headed by Lalita and Visakha devi."

I see many newcomers to Krsna consciousness and they are all rejecting this fundamentalist mentality. I think Mahaprabhu is smashing us precisely because our movement has turned that way: we went from being inclusive and reformist to being exclusive and ultra-orthodox, in the span of just one generation.

Suchandra-ji, altough we sometimes spar over various issues I actually have a deep appreciation for you and consider you my superior in both material and spiritual sense. Posts like the one above show that you are a deep thinker and a high class devotee. Apologies for all my irreverent posts.

We need to really dive deep into the vibration of the Holy Name before the death comes for us, so that in this critical moment of death and separation from the body we may be able to focus on Krsna's Names. That is our process.

The real aim of Bardo Thodol is to obtain liberation from reincarnation through a sound vibration. Bardo Thodol means: "Liberation Through Hearing During the Intermediate State".

Of course there is only one such a deposit box in the world, and it happens to be to one you are using... Every sect in the world is fishing with that line... and they will not rest until they control the entire world My letters are getting delivered to Krsna just fine...

Good for you. Now be happy with it and let others pursue knowledge and inspiration according to their own heart's inclination.

I think all of these guys: Harikesa, Gurukripa, Kirtanananda, etc. got out of Krsna consciousness exactly what they wanted, and got paid real well for the actual service rendered. They cashed out and I do not envy their 'golden parachutes'. I'm just happy to still be flying Krsna's Airlines...