Kulapavana

Unlike you, I know personally and up close scores of Iskcon diksa-initiated devotees who have plenty of transcendental knowledge, who maintain a very good sadhana, and who perform very nice devotional service every day. You judge by the results. If diksa from Prabhupada was so much more superior that is not showing in his disciples, who are just as prone (if not more) to all kinds of deviations and illicit behavior as those who got diksa from the Iskcon gurus.

From Krsna Book: "When the brahmana came to accuse the King of Dvaraka for the ninth time, Arjuna happened to be present with Krsna. On hearing that a brahmana was accusing the King of not properly protecting him, Arjuna became inquisitive and approached the brahmana. He said, "My dear brahmana, why do you say that there are no proper ksatriyas to protect the citizens of your country? Is there not even someone who can pretend to be a ksatriya, who can carry a bow and arrow at least to make a show of protection? Do you think that all the royal personalities in this country simply engage in performing sacrifices with the brahmanas but have no chivalrous power?" Thus Arjuna indicated that ksatriyas should not sit back comfortably and engage only in performing Vedic rituals. Rather, they must be very chivalrous in protecting the citizens. Brahmanas, being engaged in spiritual activities, are not expected to do anything which requires physical endeavor. Therefore, they need to be protected by the ksatriyas so that they will not be disturbed in the execution of their higher occupational duties. "If the brahmanas feel unwanted separation from their wives and children," Arjuna continued, "and the ksatriya kings do not take care of them, then such ksatriyas are to be considered no more than stage players. In dramatic performances in the theater, an actor may play the part of a king, but no one expects any benefits from such a make-believe king. Similarly, if the king or the executive head of a state cannot give protection to the head of the social structure, he is considered merely a bluffer. Such executive heads simply live for their own livelihood while occupying exalted posts as chiefs of state. My lord, I promise that I shall give protection to your children, and if I am unable to do so, then I shall enter into blazing fire so that the sinful contamination which has infected me will be counteracted."

Duh! What you missed in their 'whining' is that IT DID NOT HAVE TO BE THIS HARD OR THAT CROOKED. Sankirtan was austere enough without all these extra idiocies imposed by most Iskcon misleaders. If the sankirtan and fundraising methods were PROPER we would have avoided burning out both the public and the book distributors. If Gurukripa was treating soldiers in Vietnam the same way he was treating his sankirtan men he would have been shot by his own men, plain and simple. That happened many times to guys like him over there. Yes, we need to blame the simple minded and naive rank and file devotees like Suresh for trusting Iskcon leaders appointed by Prabhupada and for beieving the garbage these people fed them.

And the apologists refuse to admit that what was going on back then was a huge mistake that destroyed credibility of our movement. The lesson of the Baghbazar temple was not only lost, but compounded by building opulent temples with dirty money.

Exotic things like competence, honesty, integrity, accountability, and transparency.

The simple truth is that the techniques used by Gurukripa and other Iskcon misleaders were NOT SUSTAINABLE and DESTRUCTIVE. They have burned out the public and the devotees alike, totally ruining the image of our movement and with it a chance to appeal to a lot of people. Some of these guys comitted all kinds of heavy duty criminal activities, up to and including murder of fellow devotees. Back in those days we were a CULT, plain and simple, and I would not have sent my son or a daughter to serve under such criminals. When I was leading sankirtan in Poland in the early 80's our devotees were well fed, slept in motels or campgrounds, and did not have to worry about dishonest collection techniques. We did not burn out anybody and did not turn the public against our movement. Only a total idiot would think that ripping people off on the street is good for our movement.

If we only just banned guns, there would be no crime - lament the misguided do-gooders. If we only banned diksa, or if we all be getting diksa from one guru, Srila Prabhupada, there would be no problem - lament some of the misguided Hare Krsna do-gooders. Diksa can and should be separated from the institution, but not abandoned. And the institution must be properly managed by qualified people in accordance with proven principles of responsible and successful management.

When the unqualified leaders also give diksa and try to initiate as many personal followers as possible, it is not surprising that Iskcon is a mess. But blaming diksa for this situation is like blaming a gun for the murder. It is ALWAYS PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE... not machines, not institutions, not procedures... PEOPLE!

IMO it is not a 'preocupation with diksa' that seems to be the problem but the unqualified leadership of these organizations and their prone to abuse management structure.

I think you are right

sometimes I think we also got intoxicated after we joined the movement... intoxicated with our new false egos... and thus we have forgotten why we joined in the first place... And then there was this: Take the simple case of bhakta Joe Who can't go back to war 'Cause the gurus tore down everything that he was fighting for...

"Stringman" - Neil Young You can say the soul is gone And the feeling is just not there Not like it was so long ago. On the empty page before you You can fill in what you care Try to make it new before you go. Take the simple case of the sarge Who can't go back to war 'Cause the hippies tore down everything that he was fighting for...

Very wise words indeed.

I knew him in his brahmacari days (his name was Dvarakesa das) and he was indeed a very sweet devotee. Led great kirtans. Hungarian devotees loved him because he was the one who helped them the most to become Krsna conscious. Later he became Bhakti Dayal Swami and had some serious fall out with Harikesa. Some say his accident was no accident at all but a whack job Harikesa ordered.

Good choices. I'm not sure these two devotees can be called 'many' but at least you did not dodge the question and named truly qualified gurus among Prabhupada's disciples.

Care to give me some names of these devotees?

oh... OK... I understand... you tell a bold lie and when you are called on it... it becomes a 'test"? LOL! Yes, you are liar... and you have also proven my point: you and other ritviks consider nobody qualified to be a guru among Prabhupada's disciples. Your comment "Like I would let a rascal like you have a name of such a glorious person" is just another lie aimed to skirt an issue. you ritviks are such a hoot

I'm shaking in my kaupins...

I am going to put your bullsh..t above to the road test: Tell me please, WHO among Srila Prabhupada's disciples is fit to be Guru in your opinion? I want A NAME, or NAMES! Otherwise I will consider you just another ritvik liar.

Thank you, Sonic Yogi for the quotes. I have read these transcripts before. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: In Mahabharat, Visvanatha says, statement: Dasa Mahajana , one of Dasa Mahajanas is Bhisma. Bhisma says to Parasurama, he is astra guru. Astra guru, also deva guru, acarya guru. Jiva Goswami Prabhu has taken this example guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-prathipannasya parityago vidhiyate "A guru who does not know what is to be done and what is not to be done, who has left the path of devotional service, should be abandoned." Mahabharata (Udyoga-parva 179.25)

what it really says: guror api--even of a guru; avaliptasya--proud and contaminated; karya-akaryam--what is to be done and what is not to be done; ajanatah—who does not know; utpatha--the wrong path; pratipannasya--who has taken to; parityagah--rejection; vidhiyate--is enjoined. Krsna kirti must show that his guru is indeed fallen in that way if he wants to reject him.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja, 1982: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>They came to me and told that Swami Maharaja had appointed them. I am a simple man so I had no reason to disbelieve them. But now I can see by their actions that it is not possible that Swami Maharaja appointed them, it is not possible. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I have no idea what they told Sridhar Maharaja about what exactly their appointment was. Was it about giving diksa or about being 'acharyas' of his movement. Yet the tapes are there, as well as the letter signed by Prabhupada with their names and authorization to initiate. Based on that information in 1979 we were all told these devotees were authorized to give us initiation and there was nothing in Harikesa's behavior at that time that made any of us doubt it. If we were gullible and naive to believe in that, so was Srila Prabhupada who selected them from thousands of other disciples.

In 1977 Prabhupada appointed 11 people to give diksa and first initiations to new devotees. That has nothing to do with 'absolutism of being the next acarya'. When Andy-the-ritvik questions the validity of those initiations he questions Prabhupada's authorization as well. I took first initiation in 1979 and second in 1980 from Harikesa, who was one of the 11 people Prabhupada authorized to do so. Would I take initiation from Harikesa if Prabhupada did not explicitly authorized him to do so? Not likely. So if Andy insists on considering such initiations as bogus and blaming the new devotees for allowing themselves to be cheated, he is also blaming Prabhupada for creating a system in which people he authorized as his representatives cheated the newcomers. However, Andy has no clue what was going on in that part of the world 30 years ago, because he was not there. He did not see the efforts of various devotees to translate, print, and distribute millions of Prabhupada's books in Eastern Europe, often done by devotees risking their life in the process. I was there so I know. Several times I very narrowly escaped arrest or had to bribe the police to get devotees out of jail. Harikesa was one of the devotees whose own actions inspired us to serve Mahaprabhu's mission. We were told he was appointed by Prabhupada to give us initiations, and we took them, because HE ACTED THE PART PRABHUPADA MADE HIM PLAY! Yes, many years later he fell down badly, for various reasons... and may Lord Krsna be kind to him for the service he performed in His mission. I do not give a flying hoot about what Andy or other ritviks think about my diksa. I know what is true and what is valid for me. Let them worry about their own salvation and the validity of their own connection to Krsna and our sampradaya.

AUM... may the force of the bhang be with you...

And how do you know whose chanting is offenseless? You ritviks have a special Supersoul channel on your TV? and gain ask yourself a question: how was it that Prabhupada himself designated Harikesa and 10 others as initiating gurus? When you say that my diksa is bogus you are saying that Prabhupada's authorization to Harikesa to give diksa is bogus as well. This is the way of ritvikvada: no logic, no consistency, just a mental diarrhea caused by envy and fanaticism...