vishal krishna das

*Unfortunately this answer is all too common from modern Gaudiya followers. Anytime they cannot reconcile their views with Vedic traditions they just try to avoid the subject by saying we follow the Goswamis.* JN Das, with all respect to you and those who believe as you do, I only want to follow the Goswamis and as much of the Vedic tradition as They deemed necessary. And I have noted over the decades how many people felt the need to go outside Gaudiya Vaishnavism to other traditions. But I think the onus is on them to demonstrate why they need to do this and not vice-versa. What's more I personally do not think you have done so, at least not to my humble satisfaction. So I must say that Gaudiya Vaishnavism (as propounded by the Goswamis and their followers) will do me fine!

Hey Jagat, They buried my quote from the postmodernist samhita, sliced-bead sutra, which was addressed to you: and on its authority I say that There Is Only Sampradaya and Sampradaya is Truth. but you must choose which Sampraday you shall enter and Diksha, which is initiation into the knowledge of that Sampraday is the means by which we encounter Truth. That is, postmodernist Bhakti. Really, I wanted a comment.

Oh, I see why you aren't a postmodernist, Jagat. Nonetheless, I think postmodernism is compatable with Gaudiya Vaishnava devotion. The Gopis have no interest in God. Nor in Truth. Truth is whatever Sri Krishna deems it to be, and whatever He changes it to next. aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam adarsanam marma-hatam karotu va yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparah!

Although this topic seems dead, might I just state the extreme postmodernist position here which answers the topic question with a resounding 'yes!' but which Jagat, for reasons I cannot fathom opposes? As Nietzsche proposed (is this 'sliced bread' Jagatji?) what if there is no innate, unchanging truth? No 'God' but many gods. To each her own. Then sampradaya is ALL in ALL. All knowledge is sampradayik. Without initiation there is no truth! For we have no common innate natures! Thus Shiva is describing his own personal solipsistic unverse only, while arrogantly claiming to speak for all. Of course if he could found his own sampradaya then he would be speaking truth to his followers.. .. .. ...---... Yes, Diksha is a magic wand!

Capitalism is not 'white'. Many Hindus have always been successful capitalists. This is why Muslims hate them, with the Koranic stand against 'usury'. USA is not 'white'. Many Indians have reported that they experience a subtle glass-ceiling in most 'multicultural' countries (eg. Canada, & esp. Europe) preventing them from achieving their potential (just as they were so prevented under the British Empire). BUT NOT IN THE USA. Indians have achieved more, more rapidly, in the USA than in ANY OTHER NATION. African Americans, or those who complain, have got it wrong. THERE IS NO MORE COLOUR-BLIND NATION ON EARTH THAN THE USA. The USA is at the vanguard of killing off the global white hegemony and its subtle colonial remnants (such as patronising 'multiculturalism'). Opening up capitalism to all, 'globalisation', is the process by which this is occurring. I am not just talking theory, though I know enough to support what I am saying. This is the story of real people, right now, in my immediate family (some of whom worked in the World Trade Center, but all survived thankfully). At least 30% (and growing fast!) of India's population have now achieved a middle-class standard of living. Under the British regime, preserved to some extent by Nehruvian socialism, this figure was closer to ZERO. Pakistan remains a feudal, colonial aristocracy like the Raj whose style it preserves. It deserves to share its fate. Perhaps 10% of Silicon Valley Billionaires were BORN IN INDIA. In true American spirit they are now opening first-class educational institutions in India so that disadvantaged young Indians can follow their success. They are also building a $20million temple in SV. The future is Hindu because it is Capitalist! JAI HIND! JAI PAX AMERICANA!

Dear Friends, I am here placing a copy of a posting from another list, because it is interesting and some of you may wish to pursue it. I myself have read a book by Premananda Bharati published a century ago in New York, though I cannot recall the title and do not have it to hand (probably 'Sree Krishna, the Lord of Love'). It was in two sections, first a good 'non-Mayavad' summary (despite his Sankarite name 'Bharati') of Sri Chaitanya's teachings, then a translation of SBhagavatam 10th Canto very close to the 'Krishna Book'. The English writing was of a very high standard, effortlessly lucid but very elegant. I have heard (but not seen myself)that there is evidence that this Baba Premananda was known to Srila Bhaktivinoda. In fact one would be surprised if this were not so. But this also suggests that when Bhaktivinoda mentioned a 'great personality who would preach Mahaprabhu's message in the West' he was in fact referring to this Premananda, which may surprise some. Here is the copied posting: -- Multiple recipients of list RISA-L <risa-l@lists.sandiego.edu> Request for Help with Information "Gerald Carney" <gcarney@hsc.edu> Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT) risa-l@lists.sandiego.edu Sender: risa-l@lists.sandiego.edu -- Colleagues, For several years I have been doing research and publishing articles about the career of Baba Premananda Bharati (1868-1914), a Bengali Vaishnava teacher who came to the United States in 1902, founded the Krishna Samaj in New York City, published a well-received devotional book "Sree Krishna, the Lord of Love," and established the first temple to Krishna in the United States at Los Angeles in 1907. I have done extensive research in the United States, England, and India about his life, activities, religious teachings, and his anti-colonial political vision of India. While I certainly have enough material to complete the biography that I am now working on, there are three potentially-important items of information that I have been unable to locate. I am taking the liberty of contacting the members of several listserves in which I participate, with profound apologies for cross-posting, to see if any of you have any suggestions about where I might locate leads to this informatio! n. Please reply to me off-list if you have any suggestions. Please understand that I have searched the Library of Congress, the British Library, the Indian National Library, and various on-line library and antiquarian book services to no avail. 1) Baba Bharati's novel "Jim," which was written to answer Kipling's "Kim." The full novel was (self-)published by 1910-11 but does not appear in library holdings. 2) The book "Baba Bharati in Madras," which was published in Madras in 1911-12 by G.C. Loganatham. 3) Information about the life and activities of Rose Reinhardt Anthon, Baba Bharati's closest American disciple, who returned to Chicago in 1914 following Baba Bharati's death. She lived in Chicago at least until 1940. Please reply off-list if you have any information or suggestions. Thank you for your time and consideration. Jerry Carney -- Jerry Carney Professor of Religion Hampden-Sydney College Hampden-Sydney VA 23943 434-223-6268 (W) 434-386-5592 (H) gcarney@email.hsc.edu http://people.hsc.edu/faculty-staff/geraldc -- --

A general question on the topic, was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta the first to walk while performing Japa? I have not heard of this practice outside of GM and was otherwise only aware of the walking meditation of Zen monks, which Jagat pointed out. Has anyone noticed that pious Jews praying holding their philacteries at the Wailing Wall look very much like some western Japa chanters?

Yes, Talasiga, you are really firing.

Would you mind if I say it reminds me of Kahlil Gibran?

I am intrigued, Talasiga.

Touche, Talasigaji!

Satyarajji, I refer you to sutra 16 of the same adhikarana (vii, Pada iv) which follows the assertion of Brahman's being both material and operative cause "because of His making Himself so, and by modifying Himself into the universe". That is 'parinaamaat', self-modification, by which the one Hari becomes many, by His own sweet will, or as Talasiga eloquently puts it, by which 'He is the difference...'. Indeed, Baladeva in his Govinda-bhasya commentary to this sutra says 'He is the operative cause through His power called the Paraa Shakti. He is the material cause through His other two Shaktis called the Aparaa Shakti and Avidyaa Shakti which work through the souls and matter.' Which Baladeva supports by reference to the Sruti: 'The one formless being, with his purposes hidden, who with various powers creates many forms...' (Svet.Up. iv.i.)

I am also relishing this discussion very much Prabhus. Indeed there is a quality in the Chaitanya Chandramrita which appeals to me deeply. It seems to echo my own encounter with Sri Chaitanya, the way He establishes a powerful presence in one's memory- I was thinking of a visit to the Gambhira in Puri nearly 2 decades ago, gazing at the Chappals, thinking 'this was the room..' Dandavats.

I agree, Talasigaji You Gandharva very well indeed!

Dear SHVU, here's a quote from the Jaina Kalpa Sutra which I find apropos- 'Reverence to the Venerable Ascetic Mahavira, the Adikara, the last of the Tirthakaras who was predicted by the former Tirthakaras, &c. I here adore the Revered One yonder, may the Revered One yonder see me here!' With these words he adored, he worshipped the Venerable Ascetic Mahavira, and sat down on his excellent throne facing the east. Then the following internal, reflectional, desirable idea occurred to the mind of Sakra, the chief of kings and gods: (16) 'It never has happened, nor does it happen, nor will it happen, that Arhats, Kakravartins, Baladevas, or Vasudevas, in the past, present, or future, should be born in low families, mean families, degraded families, poor families, indigent families. beggars' families, or brahmanical families. (17) For indeed Arhats, Kakravartins, Baladevas, and Vasudevas, in the past, present, and future, are born in high families, noble families, royal families, noblemen's families, in families belonging to the race of Ikshvaku, or of Hari. or in other such-like families of pure descent on both sides. (18) *I find the reference to 'Baladevas and Vasudevas' interesting, along with the Heliodorous column of 300bc, describing the benefactor as a follower of Vasudeva, divinity of divinities.