jeffster

Sorry, I am somewhat confused by the apparent discrepancy between what Prabhupad said and what Bhaktivinode Thakur is quoted as saying by Ramana dasi in her post # 8. I want to attempt to reconcile this for my own sake. Is it not entirely possible, since Krishna is ever-expanding, that He is indeed generating souls from the tattashta-sakti ? These souls would, of course, be eternal, coming out essentially from the brahmajyoti, which is eternal. But as Bhaktivinode Thakur said, they would have minute free will, some would choose to serve in the spiritual side, others would be attracted by maya and move to the material conception, thereby becoming entangled in samsara. What some of you seem to be suggesting is that the jiva can be in 2 places at once, 1.) eternally liberated with Krishna, and 2.) simultaneously having a bad dream of a sojourn in the material world. Is is possible for a jiva, which is anu-atma, miniscule and atomic, to be in 2 places at once ? Please don't tell me that this is inconceivable. Inconceivable it may be, but I am attempting to understand it logically, because that is the only way I can understand this. I don't believe it is possible to be in these 2 places at once. If we are here in the material world, only our physical body and mind are functioning, powered by our soul energy, but our spiritual identity is shrivelled up and unrecognisable; and if we are in Goloka, manifesting our full siddha-deha, then there is obviously no need for a mind or physical body. But to me it seems that they must be mutually exclusive, that is, one event cannot be happening while the other event is happening. This seems to be corroborated in the statement attributed to Krishna in Loving Search for the Lost Servant by B.R. Srihara Swami, which states " Once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrndabana forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual emancipation and entered Vrndaban as a cowherd boy. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy. "Why did you stay away ? Why have you been living away from home for so long ? How was it possible for you ? How could you bear My separation ? You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me ? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me." I understand that we can never fully grasp this with mundane logic, but there must be a certain logic to it, or it seems wholly specious, especially more to an outsider if we can't explain it somewhat reasonably to them. I am relatively new here, and not well known. I respect the opinions and positions of all the posters in this post, particularly when they back up what they say by shastra. Frankly, my own opinion, for what its worth, is that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Therefore, some jivas may in fact decide to leave Krishna for a time even after having been in Goloka; and other souls, never having been in Goloka, having descended from the tattashta-sakti, attempt a sojourn here through the material cosmos until such time as they become materially exhausted, then find the path of bhakti and go back home. In the Gita, Krishna says that having once gone to the spiritual side, one does not return to birth and death in the material world. But is there an exception ? Is that exception UNLESS ONE WANTS TO, because we have minute independence, minute free will ? Regards, jeffster/AMdas

Therefore it follows that if someone were to go to a busy place, such as a market or railway station and sprinkle black turmeric on hundreds or even thousands of people over the course of a few days or a few weeks or a few months, and receive a dollar or Rs 100 from each person, than with no degree of uncertainty, they should be rich beyond their wildest dreams in a relatively short time. jeffster

YES, IT WORKS !! I just sprinkled black turmeric on my wife and she gave me a dollar. jeffster

Hello again Melvin, The problem that I've found with allopathic medicine is that they solve one problem with a drug while creating another, which is to say that many of their drugs have unwanted side-effects. The herbs I take all help in controlling high blood pressure, as well. Healthy diet can also help with high blood pressure. I have high blood pressure, also, but I have vastly cut down consumption of salt, and things like ginseng cannot be taken either. I take no allopathic medication for either heart or high blood pressure. My understanding is that soma-rasa is not an alcoholic beverage as we know it here on earth, but rather a more subtle intoxicant found on the moon planet, possibly other planets. We are all busy here forgetting Krishna, so perhaps to satisfy our desires to be separate from Him, He gave soma-rasa to enhance the illusory effect which intoxication provides. Regards, jeffster/AMdas

Hi Melvin, I also get heart palpitations from time to time, so I have been taking some herbs for years, and for the most part, the herbs, as well as some life-style changes I have made, keep the heart problems in check. As Krishna says in Gita " I am the healing herb," and you and I discussed Dhanvantari briefly previously. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I take a little cocktail of 3 herbs. Here they are, as well as info on where you can obtain them: 1.) Arjuna bark, the main ingredient in Abana, along with other herbs. From Himalaya Drug Co., Banglalore India. I am not sure where you can get this in Phillipines. They also have distributor in USA. Arjuna bark is the traditional E. Indian heart health herb. 2. Arjuna bark, also the main ingredient in Divya Hridyamrit, distributed by Divya Pharmacy, available right here on the indiadivine.org website. You order here online and they ship it directly from India anywhere in the world. 3.) Hawthorne berries, the traditional European heart health herb. I am not sure where you can get these in Phillipines, they likely don't grow there as European climate is much cooler. Possibly a local herb store has them. They are just little dried berries. Quite strong when freshly dried. 4.) Salvia pills, otherwise known as Dan Shen Yin Wan, is a traditional Chinese formula for heart health, as well as other ills. There are likely Chinese herb merchants in the big Phillipine cities, check there. I take Arjuna bark and hawthorn daily, Salvia when I need a little extra. Or you can take these herbs in rotation. ALSO, related to this post discussing the thread "Is Mukti a Myth," I found in Science of Self Realization by Prabhupad a chapter called "The Immortal Nectar of the Bhagavad-gita," where Prabupad directly quotes Sankaracharya's entire "Meditations on the Bhagavad-gita," and adds his own commentaries. Prabhupad directly glorifies Srila Sankaracharya and declares him to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva. Here is an excerpt: "Sankara directly offers salutations to Krishna, as if to show the fools, who are searching after light, that here is light like the sun. But the fallen demons are like owls that will not open their eyes on account of their fear of the sunlight itself. These owls will never open their eyes to see the sublime light of Krishna and His words the Bhagavad-gita. They will, however, comment on the Gita with their closed owl-eyes to mislead their unfortunate readers and followers. Sankara, however, discloses the light to his less intelligent followers and shows that the Bhagavad-gita and Krishna are the only source of light. This is all to teach the sincere seekers of the truth to offer salutation to Lord Krishna and thus surrender unto Him without misgivings. That is the highest perfection of life, and that is the highest teaching of Sankara, the great learned scholar whose teachings drove the voidest philosophy of Buddha out of India, the land of knowledge. Om, tat, sat." Regards, jeffster/AMdas

But looking at the issue of being converted to Krishna's fold from another perspective, in Gita Krishna says that all men follow His path in all respects, and that everything rests on Him just as pearls are strung on a thread. Once having realized your siddha-deha, which is the culmination of spiritual consciousness, there is at that point nothing to convert either from or to, since the jiva has then entered full maturity in transcendental consciousness. Which is also to suggest that religions that emphasize conversion perhaps are not able to conceive of this apex of spiritual realization, let alone offer it. In other words, there is nothing really outside of Krishna. But most jivas here in the material world, not realizing this sublime factor, are blinded and lost and overwhelmed by the external energy, and exhibit only partial consciousness, according to the modes of nature which predominate in their psycho-physical make-up. So perhaps the issue is not so much being "converted to his fold," since we are already either knowingly or unknowingly in His fold, but becoming fully conscious of His pre-eminence (sp?) and becoming willing to serve Him favorably. This is apparently a gradual process for most jivas. You can perhaps explain this transcendental science to others, as well, if that is your inclination. Certainly Krishna says that preachers are very dear to Him. Regards, jeffster/AMdas

Hello Melvin, Yes, you are Krishna's loving bhakta, so he would like favorable friends like you to preach KC to the unfortunates here in the material world who do not know the goal of life. Earlier, it sounded to me, since the topic is about our spiritual body, that you meant that in your siddha-deha, eternal form, you were a friend of Krishna. But now I understand how you are thinking about this topic and it makes sense. Even when Krishna was on the planet, not everyone decided to surrender to Him, as we understand from the Mahabharata. And in Krishna Book, in the chapter depicting the wrestling match, it is explained that everyone there saw Krishna in a different way, according to the depth of their vision. In fact, most of the people there did NOT realize that He was the Personality of Godhead. I was touring in Vrndaban a few years ago, and as you likely know, most people there say "Hari Bol !" or "Jaya Radhe !" I saw one Brijbasi who looked different than all the others, and I said "Hari Bol !" He apparently could not speak, but he shook his head, as if to say "No." Which meant to me that even in Krishna's dhama, Vrindabana, the holiest of holy places, Krishna still allows the jiva free will, and in this case, even in Vrindaban, that particular soul was not interested in Krishna. My point is that even if Krishna were to return (and He is not scheduled to return until the Kalki avatar at the end of this Kali Yuga) people wouldn't necessarily be "converted to his fold." Only the very fortunate, the few, the humble become bhaktas. "Sa mahatma sudurlabha" - Such a great soul is very rare. Regards, jeffster/AMd

Hello Melvin, Krishna does NOT need a doctor. Krishna incarnated as Dhanvantari for OUR benefit, not His benefit. Only conditioned jiva souls in physical bodies have physical infirmities, thereby requiring the help of medical science. Krishna in His sac-cid-ananda-vigraha body cannot have physical infirmities because his body is non-physical. The Gita corroborates this when Krishna says that He is the healing herb. The herbs were given by Dhanvantari to man for man's benefit. This is one of the differences between man and God. God is bhukta, the maintainer; man is bhakta, the maintained. Man, with his physical infirmities, was in need of medical science. Dhanvantari, in His mercy, dispensed medical science to man. I understand from your other posts that you have some physical problems, and I hope that you can surmount them or learn to live with them. Be well !! Regards, Jeffster/AMd

Hello Melvin, Please correct me if I am wrong, but Dhanvantari is not Krishna's doctor; rather, you could see Him as Krishna as doctor, or more accurately, an expansion or avatar of Krishna, if you will, who descended to earth to establish Ayurveda. Regards, jeffster/AMdas

Does Krishna need a doctor? If He has a sac-cid-ananda vigraha body, He doesn't need a doctor, unless it is part of lila. Are you pulling my leg ? Or did I just forget some part of Krishna lila with a family doctor or something? jeffster/AMd

Melvin, who is Krishna's doctor-friend ? jeffster

Yes, I just checked it out. There is a nice scene on YouTube called "Mahabharata, behind the scenes 2-Closing theme song." It shows the actor breaking down, although now I think it must be the actor who played Krishna, not Arjuna, although I am not sure. But quite moving to watch and the ecstasy is quite contagious, watch out !! Also on YouTube is Peter Brook's Mahabharata, which I had seen years ago but forgotten due to my tiny Kali yuga brain ! Although non-traditional, it is powerful and the actors have a lot of shakti. Best watched for the essence, rather than the form of it. There is a lot of other Mahabharata stuff posted on YouTube. Check it out. jeffster/AM das Goodnight from the west coast of North America. After midnight here.

Prabhupad was not a movie producer; he would have entrusted that to some of his disciples, had he felt that any were qualified to do such. Most, if not all, were not and are not qualified to produce a full-on Hollywood epic. We would simply be scoffed at for trying to break into their industry. We are still a street-corner preacher religion, at least here in America, a little like Jehovah's Witnesses, not accepted at all as mainstream. Nothing wrong with street harinam, mind you, but we certainly don't have general acceptance (yet). I believe that Bollywood has already produced numerous versions of both Ramayana and Mahabharata and some Krishna lila scenes appear in other movies, although I am not sure if the entire story of Krishna's wonderful manifestation has ever been produced as a major Bollywood epic. During the filming for the latest version of Mahabharata, being produced currently, the actor playing Arjuna broke down in crying ecstasy of love for Krishna. They had to stop shooting the scene while he recovered. I believe it may have been posted on YouTube, although I am not sure. But I did see it, I am not sure if YouTube or elsewhere, but I think on YouTube. Try searching there. Regard, jeffster/AMdas

Yes, of course the best actors to play Krishna lila in movies would be devotees. But few if any devotees are Hollywood actors. I recall that a few years ago, some L.A. Iskcon devotees, like Ganga-narayan, were attempting to break into Hollywood, although with little success, as far as I know. To the best of my knowledge, the only fairly well-known actress who is a devotee is Hayley Mills, who long ago was a Disney or some such actress before she became a devotee. Hollywood would never get it right anyway; currently they are botching the Ramayana big time. Apparently, Krishna lila is too confidential for mass public consumption. This is kali yuga after all; they'd rather see fictional stories such as science fiction or bogus romances or action dramas. Regards, jeffster/AMdas

Melvin, I don't quite understand your response. This isn't Hollywood, no one plays Krishna except Krishna. His part is taken eternally because He is whollly transcendental, never forgetful. He is Krishna-tattva, not jiva tattva like us. And no one really plays us except us, we just need to enter the play (lila). My point was only that we don't yet know our siddha-deha, eternal identity. Perhaps the relevant question is what part of Krishna, Ram or Vishnu lila are you attracted to, Melvin ? Krishna is equal to all, even enemies he gives liberation to, although I believe, mostly impersonal liberation. We should attempt to be attracted to Krishna lila in a positive way, not as a demon. Regards, Jeffster/AMdas

Yes, Prabhupad always said that he was a cowherd boy. He also said that Krishna consciousness is intrinsic, that he (Prabhupad) just came to teach us that which we had forgotten. In one sense, whether we came from tathasta-sakti or fell from Goloka isn't really the issue; the issue is where are we headed, not where have we come from. Yes, our souls in their fullness of spiritual consciousness will blossom into our siddha-deha, eternal identity. Right now they are shrivelled up and unrecognizable, although within our hearts, but as we make advancement, our real identity will fully manifest. Some of you may even have a clue already as to your real identity. What part of Krishna lila or Ram lila or Vishnu lila or Chaitanya lila are you most attracted to ? Pranams, jeffster/AMdas

Feels like a vacuum in this thread. jeffster/AMd

I apologize. I do so love to pontificate, but perhaps I should stop. After all, I'm not the pope !! jeffster/AMd

Hello again, Why God. Are these posts helping clarify anything for you or is this just adding to the confusion ? Bhaktajan also brings up a nice point about the "craftsmanship of yoga." This is truly spiritual craftsmanship and I urge you to take it up in earnest, not just wonder what it is like from an intellectual perspective. Dive in and submerge yourself in the ocean of bliss ! Sometimes, online, when there is no feedback, I feel like I'm in a vacuum, but I can't tell whether its a Hoover or a Eureka. jeffster/AM das

Hello Lover of the Bhagavat, Re: your post # 141, I was wondering if you have ever heard of the analogy that likens Lord Krishna to milk and Lord Shiva to yoghurt ? They are of the same essence, but a little different, yoghurt being derived from milk. Also, calling yourself a "Shivaite impersonalist" seems to me a contradiction, since Shiva is a person, not an imperson. Regards, Jeffster/AM das

Bhaktajan is perfectly correct in asserting that this process is spiritual science. In other words, it is a clearly delineated, systematic practice that has already been perfected and traversed by the predecessor acharyas. We don't have to speculate, we don't have to experiment, we simply have to follow it. We apply positive principles and refrain from negative principles. In practice that means following the four regulative principles of a.) no meat eating, including fish, poultry and eggs; b.) no gambling; c.) no illicit sex, meaning sex between married heterosexual partners and only for the purpose of procreation; and d.) no intoxication, including drugs, alcohol, tobacco, tea or coffee. Now the best part is the practice of the positive principle - the chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra. It does take some shraddha, or faith to begin the process, as the process won't work if we don't practice it !! B.R. Sridhara Swami defined faith as trust in something sublime. I have not found anywhere a more sublime personality than that of Lord Krishna. Especially now, nearly everyone is enamored of the incredible things that can be done with electronic gadgetry. But just see the incredible potency of this sublime Personality - He can even expand Himself unlimitedly into the hearts of everyone of us as Paramatma ! And He holds each planet in perfect orbit effortlessly. This can be said of no one else. So I urge everyone to take to this process, and as my Gurudev, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad said many times, "Your life will be sublime !" jeffster/AMD

We're not talking about faith here, we are attempting to discern the highest truth. To an atheist, his level of faith tells him that God does not exist. That is his belief system. Yet, if in fact God does exist, does the disbelief of the atheist in any way affect the reality that God exists ? Does God much care for the opinion of atheists ? No, and it would be ludicrous to think so. Therefore, reality transcends belief systems and faith, although, in fact, Reality cannot be approached without some degree of faith. But not blind faith, reasoned faith, faith that is questioned and proven and validated through one's own experience and the shared experience of others, also on the path of transcendence. Gita talks about the different levels of faith according to the modes of material nature that each person finds himself in, but the Truth transcends all the modes of nature. The Truth is spotless and pristine and is known as the all-good Supreme Absolute Truth Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. Men in lower modes of nature worship the demigods or even sometimes ghosts and spirits. Fundamentalists, below even the level of neophyte religious practitioners with some level of genuine faith, are such demons that they even rationalize killing other people of other religions. My definition of a demon is that a demon, in order to further his own ends, does not care how much pain and suffering he inflicts on others. Demonism should NEVER be confused with genuine religious faith. Religious faith, by definition, must be compassionate and uplifting, not destructive. If the demonic sub-neophytes are so right on, why don't they preach by example and compassion rather than by wanton and indiscriminate slaughter ? They are so incredibly ignorant and indiscriminating that they even kill each other. In no manner do they have what could be called genuine religious faith. Yes, their "faith," as you call it, is simply misused, misconstrued, malicious, misguided, mistaken and illusory. jeffster/AM das

Why do we need God ? On a basic physical level of survival, God gives us sunlight, water, air and food grains without which we cannot survive. God is bhukta, the maintainer, man is bhakta, the maintained. Man is ever in the dependent position. Why do we search for God ? "Athato brahma jijnasa" We search for God because only in this rare and valuable human form of life do we have the requisite intelligence to question our own existence and ask relevant questions like "Who am I ?,Who is God ?," and "What is my relationship with God ?" Just think about the fact that there are 6 billion humans on earth. That seems like a lot until we consider how many countless billions of insects, birds, fish and animals must inhabit the earth. Therefore, the human birth is truly rare and we should make the best use of our God-given intelligence and solve the issue of mortality. Hope this helps. jeffster/AMdas

Hare Krishna, If you do not have the japa beads, you can just starting without them. Later you can purchase some. Do you live in or near a city or town that has a temple ? If so, you can visit the temple gift shop and find the beads there. The main thing is to begin chanting. Do you know the Hare Krishna maha-mantra ? It is the great chanting for deliverance and goes like this: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Please let us know how it goes; we are here to help. Regards, jeffster/AM das

Sambya, Yes, that is reasonable. Shastra needs to be applied according to time, place and circumstance. Yet the statement that there are many universes with many different Brahmas as their chiefs needs no interpretation. It is valid for all time, yes ? I was just attempting to point out that spiritual practitioners should not be taken in by scientific claims without thoroughly investigating their validity in the light of shastra. Good science should be consistent with shastra. I believe that that is what the BI (Bhaktivedanta Institute) was attempting to demonstrate. Again, I am not a scientist, but I have somehow validated, at least to myself, that chanting Hare Krishna is the apex of spiritual science. You are certainly correct in suggesting that it would behoove scientists to keep an open mind regarding the existence of God. We know from Gita that God (Krishna) is the intelligence in man, thereby giving man the ability to question his own existence- athato brahma jijnasa (sp?). Let us hope that scientists don't misuse their God-given intelligence, although in fact, most of them do, simply focusing on the permutations of the external energy and missing the spiritual element altogether. We transcendentalists have as our duty the obligation to attempt to correct the shortsightedness of the so-called scientific mindset by pointing out that there is a continuum beginning with dense matter, consisting of earth, water, fire, air and either; then progressing to the more subtle level of senses, mind, intelligence and false ego; then finally extending to the plane of soul and Supersoul. The scientists most often get stuck on the sensual or intellectual plane and cannot proceed beyond it. jeffster/AM das