Guruvani

This is a chicken that even a devotee could eat!

According to Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami, to worship Krishna without accepting Mahaprabhu is demon.

I would prefer to say that it is a place that is attained by a state of consciousness. We don't create the spiritual world by our consciousness. We enter the spiritual world when consciousness is compatible.

Srila Prabhupada also said that at the time of the passing of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami he did not find anyone qualified to be appointed as the successor acharya of Gaudiya Math. Neither did Srila Saraswati Thakur appoint Srila Prabhupada as the successor acharya of the Gaudiya Math. So, at some point, obviously, Vaishnavas BECOME qualified to become acharya. They all evolve and develop to the position of becoming acharya. Srila Prabhupada did and so did some of his Godbrothers. If growth, advancement and realization are not progressive then nobody can ever become acharya. I personally take Srila Prabhupada's statement about his Godbrothers as a device with which to keep his flock focused and centered on His mission to spread the KC movement all over the world. I don't accept it as a FACT as much as I accept it as a circumstantial dictum that was quite useful and prudent during the time of Srila Prabhupada, but which has become a burden in his absence.

The GBC has vicitimzed many new devotees with a smear campaign to malign and demean the great Vaishnava Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada. So, I guess we really can't blame the clueless new devotees that have been programmed and brainwashed by the GBC and ISKCON guru sect. However, it is very unfortunate and unfair that such a bad stigma has been attached to so many humble Vaishnavas that never did anything to ISKCON or against ISKCON but were slandered, smeared and demeaned systematically by the ISKCON leadership.

Srimad Bhagavatam is a Purana. Purana means ancient history. So, the Vaishnava acharyas promote that the battle of Kurukshetra was an actual event that took place. In that Purana of ancient history there are some parables and fables that were told by the sages and munis of the Vedic lore. So, if we reject the Bhagavat Purana or Mahabharat as anything less than an actual historical account, then we are rejecting the version and faith of the great acharyas, sages and munis of the Vaishnava tradition. I don't see the value or benefit in rejecting the Bhagavat Purana or Mahabharata as actual historical accounts. The great Vaishnava acharyas promote them as actual historical accounts. To reject that is in a way saying that these great acharyas were either gullible, naive or illusioned. What is the value, what is the benefit to let the mind override the teachings of the great acharyas and reject the Itihasa and Purana as anything less than actual historical accounts? When we let the mind dictate the terms with which we accept the teachings of the acharyas then we are in a sense manufacturing our own religion of what we believe and what we don't believe as opposed to what the acharyas teach as fact. I guess there is a lot of this picking and choosing and manufacturing of personally tailored religions that our minds fabricate according to our conditioned nature.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.2.27 purport, So, why do some devotees advocate that there is more than ONE real religion in the world?

I am at a loss to see what the "curve" was in Narayana Maharaja's explanation. I have read those some things in Srimad Bhagavatam of Srila Prabhupada. I posted a quote from Bhagavatam just a few days ago about Maha-Sankarsana being the shelter and origin of the tatastha-jivas. I personally didn't read anything new or different from what I already understood from the books of Srila Prabhupada. Can somebody please explain what Narayana Maharaja said that has altered or revised the standard Bhagavat siddhanta on the origin of the jivas? Of course the jivas are eternal. But, the jiva is a "disintegrated part and parcel of Krishna". To me that can easily mean that at one point in existence the jiva was NOT disintegrated from Krishna but rather was integrated with Krishna. The fall of the jiva is about the jiva becoming disintegrated from the effulgence of Krishna and losing his absolute position in eternal existence and entering into the realm of duality. The jiva forever remains an individual soul. But, when the jiva falls down from the absolute existence above the three modes of material nature and enters the realm of duality then he is said to be fallen. The jiva is never really fallen in the sense that the jiva is still eternal brahman under all circumstances, even when he falls into duality of thinking himself as being of this material existence. The brahmajyoti is full of infinite numbers of jiva souls. When a jiva falls from that absolute platform and partakes of karma within the three modes of material nature, then the jiva is said to be fallen, even though the jiva remains as brahman eternally and never really falls from brahman as actually being brahman by constitution. I can't see any "curve" in the explanation of Narayana Maharaja. It is the standard Bhagavat siddhanta that anyone should understand by a serious study of the Bhagavatam. Nothing new or different about his explanation. It is just standard traditional Gaudiya siddhanta on the origin and nature of the jiva soul.

Well you were close. My Dad's name was George.

So, I guess we should just read letters and that is the way?

I am getting bored. These clowns are trying to make me an issue. If you clowns think that attacking me excites me or angers me you should think again. Don't make me the topic or issue here. As far as I am concerned that is the most boring topic you could make an issue out of. I am not the enemy of Sleepervada. The entire Gaudiya tradition is so attack the tradition and not some insignificant fool.

My name is not George. My name is James. My devotee name is Kshamabuddhi das and most everyone on this forum knows it. I have never kept my real identity a secret. I say it regularly and am not afraid to do so. What is YOUR real devotee name? To much of a cheater to say? I thought so.

They had NO philosophical differences. Anyone that says they did is just an ass-kissing GBC cronie with an agenda of personal gain.

Rupanuga took that advice of Srila Prabhupada, yet he still fell down from sannyasa, went back to his ex-wife and drifted off from ISKCON to become a lawyer in secular American society. So, obviously, something went terribly wrong with Rupanuga even though he stayed loyal to Srila Prabhupada and avoided the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

Please go spit on another topic. This topic is not for you to desecrate.

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">Last Recorded Meeting </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>With such appreciation, there should be little doubt why Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj had implicit faith in Srila Sridhar Maharaj. He had even heard directly from Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad of the exceptional qualifications of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. In their last known recorded meeting in 1977, just prior to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's leaving this mortal world, we find him imploring Srila Sridhar Maharaj to take up residence at his temple in Sridham Mayapur. The conversation that ensues is a transcript of their taped conversation of March 1977. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami: I do not know for how long I will be able to carry on. So, I came to see Sridhar Maharaj. Devotee: If you all go away, then the world will become dark. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: [to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami] It is so wonderful that the will of the Lord becomes manifest through someone. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami: I want very much, Maharaj, that you come and stay at Mayapur. Because Prabhupad always desired that you preach. He told me quite a few times, "Why don't you pull him out?" [They both laugh.] You know, I also tried to some extent before, but somehow or other it did not work out. Now, why don't you come and stay at Mayapur? Srila Prabhupad told me also, "Sridhar Maharaj is one of the finest preachers." I want to take you everywhere. At least at the place we have in Mayapur, people are coming from all over the world. Why don't you come and stay there? If you just agree, then whatever kind of building you want, I will arrange it for you. They are trying to build a house for me. So both of us will stay there. And whenever you want, you can come here to your Math. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Yes, as long as I am alive to fulfill Prabhupad's desire. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. If you stay, then it will be helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one that I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly. Devotee: If he stays in Mayapur, then, all kinds of people will get to hear from him. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami: Yes, that's right. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Yes, people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds will come there. Bhaktivedanta Swami: Yes, and they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. My disciples are telling me that they will build a house for me. So, both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am travelling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance. So, Maharaj, please, give me the order and I will make all the arrangements for you. That Planetarium [The "Temple of Understanding"] also will be built under your direction. My idea is to combine the Indian culture and the American money -- the lame man and the blind man policy. I tell them also that this will be very beneficial for the world. </td></tr></tbody></table>

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">I consider Sridhar Maharaj to be my Siksha Guru </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>In this passage, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj describes Srila Sridhar Maharaj as "the most competent of all my Godbrothers," "someone competent to act as Siksha Guru," and in an astounding statement, he declares, "I consider Sridhar Maharaj to be my Siksha Guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association"! What Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj means by Siksha Guru is best explained in his own words. In his purports to the Adi-Lila of Chaitanya Charitamrta, he states: "One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krishna. Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami states that there are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service and the other is he who invokes the disciple's spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions. There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service." [Chaitanya Charitamrta - Adi Lila 1.47] Although it may be said that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj encouraged his godbrothers in general, no one anywhere can produce a similar statement of endorsement. The fact is that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj possessed the highest respect and appreciation for Sridhar Maharaj, and Srila Sridhar Maharaj is unparalleled in his understanding and admiration of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj, as evinced in the following eulogy: "So our Swami Maharaj has done a miracle! Thakur Bhaktivinoda conceived and Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur began to translate this conception into action. And we find that through Swami Maharaj, in his last days, it has been fulfilled to such a great extent. We are happy, we are glad, we are proud!" In response to this, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj with great humility, his voice choked with emotion, tearfully replied, "So, by guru and Vaishnava, whatever position I have got it is by guru's mercy and the blessings of the Vaishnavas. Otherwise, how I may have? So, I wish that Sridhar Maharaj may bestow his blessings as he was doing always, and may Guru Maharaj help me so I can do some service. By his grace it has become successful. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening, because I am not at all qualified: chadiya vaisnava seva, nistara payeche keba. [Without serving an ideal Vaishnava, who can be delivered from the clutches of maya?]" And after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj, Srila Sridhar Maharaj declared: "I consider him to be saktyavesa avatara, and it is confirmed in his writings on his spiritual journey through the Atlantic. How he landed there in America, and the nature of his beginning the movement, his intense degree of dedication to Krishna and dependence, and how much he made himself empty of any other desire than the order of his Gurudev, quite empty that Krishna came down to help him, and it is corroborated that Krishna worked on his behalf. In his poem, Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna, we find him pleading with Krishna, "My dear Brother, Your good fortune will come to You only when Srimati Radharani be comes pleased with You." Seeing his Gurudeva Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati as Radharani's delegation and his order as Her divine service, he humbly submitted that he did not feel himself worthy or fit to discharge the divine service, so he enlisted Krishna in the service of his guru. He had completely dedicated himself to the purpose, he was so earnest in his prayer to Krishna that he may discharge the duty that he has been given by his Guru Maharaj, that divine force, power, came down to help him. Otherwise, it is impossible. It is not a thing of the ordinary level that anyone will do, but the highest thing has been taken down to the lowest position so extensively. It cannot but be the divine power, embodied and in a great intensity and magnitude! So, saktyavesa avatara, I cannot but take him to be so." </td></tr></tbody></table>

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">If I were to tell you, you would faint </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20"> </td> <td> During the Vyasa Puja celebration, one of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj's disciples saw Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj and Srila Sridhar Maharaj fully absorbed in a deep discussion in Bengali. The disciple inquired from Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj what was the nature of their talk, and he replied, "If I were to tell you, you would faint. Sridhar Maharaj has very high realizations." That Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj continually regarded Sridhar Maharaj as his advisor throughout his life is clear in the following letter written by him to one of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's disciples, Sripad Govinda Maharaj. Concerned about his failing health, he had written Sridhar Maharaj asking whether he should continue living in the United States or return to India to live his last days in Vrindavan. After receiving Srila Sridhar Maharaj's reply, he wrote: "What Sripad Sridhar Maharaj has directed, I take it on my head. He is my always well-wisher. After the departure of Prabhupad it is appropriate that I should accept his direction. I got direction from him that I shall live in this country forever." Sometimes it is said that one's preaching contribution can be judged according to the number of temples established, devotees converted, and books published and distributed. Srila Sridhar Maharaj travelled and preached extensively all over India, personally accompanying Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur for many years. Nearly fifty years ago, he established the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math on the banks of the Ganges in Nabadwip Dham, which is now a thriving institution. His followers have established temples in major cities throughout the world. His Sanskrit and Bengali writings have been appreciated by both scholars and devotees for their originality, depth of realization, and happy poetic style. Published and widely distributed throughout the world, they are now available in English, Spanish, Hindi, Portuguese, German, French, and are being translated into other languages. Throughout his life, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj always maintained the highest respect and confidence in Srila Sridhar Maharaj. He considered that whenever it was not possible for his disciples to proceed directly under his guidance, that they should take direction from Srila Sridhar Maharaj. He once wrote in a letter to one of his students: "Because you are my disciple, and I think, a sincere soul, it is my duty to refer you to someone who is competent to act as a Siksha Guru. For spiritual advancement of life, we must go to someone who is actually practicing spiritual life. So, if you are actually serious to take instructions from a Siksha Guru, I can refer you to the one who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B.R. Sridhar Maharaj, whom I consider to be even my Siksha Guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have by his association. So, if you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I will advise you to go to Sridhar Maharaj. It will be very good for your spiritual benefit, and I will feel that you are safe. When I was in India with the others, we lived with Sridhar Maharaj. You can also make arrangements for your other Godbrothers to go there in the future. So, live peacefully with Sridhar Maharaj, and thereby you will be spiritually enlightened." </td></tr></tbody></table>

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">Constant Association </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20"> </td> <td>Constantly associating, whether in Allahabad, Calcutta, or other parts of India, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj and Srila Sridhar Maharaj's relationship continually developed. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj continues to recall their meeting: "In my householder life I had opened an office in Bombay for our business. The Bombay Gaudiya Math was established by Sridhar Maharaj and myself. We made two parties for begging, collecting alms. Sridhar Maharaj, myself, and Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj. So, I took them to my chemist friends and I collected about five hundred rupees. Sridhar Maharaj would speak, I would introduce, and Goswami Maharaj would canvass." In the Srila Prabhupad Lilamrta, Satsvarup Das Goswami writes: "Abhay would often accompany Sridhar Maharaj and his assistants at preaching programs, where he would play the mrdanga. And when Sridhar Maharaj fell ill, Abhay led the other devotees on preaching engagements, performing kirtan, playing mrdanga, and giving lectures on the Bhagavatam." While still in Bombay, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj and Sridhar Maharaj were the receiving party for a Gaudiya Math sannyas upon his return from Europe. Although dismayed by his changed appearance which was missing the tridanda of a Gaudiya Sannyasi, the sikha of a Vaishnava, as well as the traditional robes, they still eagerly inquired in regard to the preaching field in the West. The sannyasi remarked, "They ask questions that cannot be answered." Concerned, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj inquired further as to the nature of those questions. One after another Srila Sridhar Maharaj answered them all. At last, the sannyasi was left dumbfounded and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami boldly declared, "Today, Europe has been defeated by Asia!" During the lifetime of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad, Srila Sridhar Maharaj once composed a poem describing the ontological positions of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and the line of disciplic succession stemming from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad was so pleased with the poem's ontological depth and its happy style that he remarked: "Bhaktivinoda Thakur has written this through him. Now I am satisfied that although I may go, at least one man remains behind who can represent my conclusions." In further appreciation of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's writings, Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad informed the editors of the Gaudiya Math's periodicals, "If you include articles written by Sridhar Maharaj, the quality of your publications will be greatly improved." After the disappearance of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad, the Gaudiya Math gradually diverged. With full knowledge of the events surrounding the disintegration of the Gaudiya Math, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami told his disciples in the same 1973 conversation, "Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Math, I wanted to organize another organization, making Sridhar Maharaj the head." Reciprocating the appreciation, Srila Sridhar Maharaj advised the leaders of the Gaudiya Sangha to confer the title "Bhaktivedanta" upon the then Abhay Charan. Later, his sannyas-guru, Sripad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaj, one of the senior-most disciples of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, and the first sannyas-disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, gave sannyas to Abhay Charan, retaining the title "Bhaktivedanta," and conferring the sannyas name "Swami." Additionally, when Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj returned to India in October of 1967, after his successful preaching initiative in America, he stayed with Srila Sridhar Maharaj in Nabadwip, and observed his Vyasa Puja celebration. At that time, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj wrote a letter to a disciple saying, "Yesterday, we have all come to Nabadwip Dham. This place is an establishment of one of my Godbrothers. It is a very nice and extensive place, and my Godbrother B.R. Sridhar Maharaj has spared one entire house for our stay. He has also agreed to cooperate with our society. We shall observe his birthday celebration, and the brahmacaris shall learn how to celebrate the spiritual master's birthday." Shortly afterwards, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj to be the president of his newly formed society -- the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. </td></tr></tbody></table>

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad Excerpt: <table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">A Transcendental Relationship </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20"> </td> <td>Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj and Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj first met sometime in the year 1930 in Allahabad, India. In a taped conversation recorded in a 1973 meeting at Srila Sridhar Maharaj's Math at Nabadwip Dham, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj recalls: "So, we are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace, Om Vishnupad Paramahamsa Parivrajkacarya Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me. I was fortunate to have his association since a very long time, perhaps in 1930, something like that. At that time, he did not accept sannyas; he just left home, and as a vanaprastha, in his white dress, he went to Allahabad. "Maharaj [To Srila Sridhar Maharaj] I think you remember the incident when you went to Allahabad? On that auspicious occasion, we were connected . There is a long story, it will take time, but I had the opportunity of associating with Sridhar Maharaj for several years. Krishna and Prabhupad liked him to prepare me." "Sridhar Maharaj lived in my house for many years, so naturally, we had very intimate talks and he was my good advisor. I took his advices, instructions, very seriously because from the very beginning I know that he is a pure Vaishnava, a pure devotee, and I wanted to associate with him and tried to help him also. Our relationship is very intimate." Herein, we find the history of a transcendental relationship between these two pure devotees of the Lord. Addressing Srila Sridhar Maharaj as "His Divine Grace" and Om Vishnupad -- forms of address for one regarded as a spiritual master -- Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj has transcended the norms of social etiquette and superficial formality. Intimately associating together for a concentrated period of over five years, often for five to seven hours daily, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj considered that "Krishna and Prabhupad liked him to prepare me" for his future expansive missionary activities in the Western world. While remembering their intimate talks, specifically in regard to Bhagavad Gita, Srila Sridhar Maharaj recalls the depth in penetration of their discussions. "Once while discussing the verse dadami buddhiyogam tam yena mam upayanti te ["I give them the understanding by which they can come to Me" Bhagavad Gita 10.10] I submitted to him that here, upayanti is indicative of parakiya rasa [paramour relationship] . On this point he agreed with me, saying, 'Yes, at this point there cannot be anything but the parakiya rasa of Vraja. The conclusion of Bhagavad Gita must come to this." Recognizing Srila Sridhar Maharaj as "a pure Vaishnava, a pure devotee" since the beginning of their relationship, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj most highly valued his instructions and advice. He would often consult with him regarding the spiritual significance of his failing business and family relationships. An example of how Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj tried to help Srila Sridhar Maharaj in his preaching work is seen in his appreciating Srila Sridhar Maharaj's uncanny ability for extracting the essence of the scriptures. He helped to finance the publication of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's original Sanskrit-Bengali work entitled Prapanna Jivanamrta: The Nectar of Surrender. The book, as well as containing original Sanskrit verses composed by Srila Sridhar Maharaj, is a compilation of verses from various Vaishnava scriptures such as Srimad Bhagavatam, and includes excerpts from the works of Rupa Goswami. It is divided according to the six divisions of surrender. </td></tr></tbody></table>

There is only one Swami Jesus and that is Jesus, not Srila Prabhupada.

Actually, in one meeting Srila Prabhupada told Sridhar Maharaja that he wanted a Vedic planetarium to be built under his guidance. But, ISKCON flopped after the passing of Srila Prabhupada and they didn't have enough funds to even think about building the Vedic planetarium Srila Prabhupada wanted built under the guidance of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

You only think you know. You don't really KNOW until you have realized the truth in fact. You just say "I know" and I say "I think" because I don't like being so arrogant as to come across so sure of myself. You really don't KNOW anything. You just have things you believe in like everyone else does.

You aren't alone mariner. At my job my employer and co-workers have no clue that I was ever a Hare Krishna and I guard that information as best I can. Quite frankly, with what has become of ISKCON I am ashamed to tell anyone that I was once a Hare Krishna. I haven't preached to anyone in over 20 years when last I met a person who actually inquired from me very seriously about my spiritual knowledge and kept coming back. I gave him a Bhagavad-gita and he was transformed into a devotee. I don't "preach". But, if someone inquires I will share what I know. On this forum I don't consider myself a preacher. I am a grappler who likes to grapple with the misinformation campaigners like the ISKCON cronies and GBC. It just bugs me to see all this false propaganda being made in the name of Srila Prabhupada.

I don't know of a statement by Srila Prabhupada where he said anything about his Godbrothers having misconceptions about the siddhanta. The differences Srila Prabhupada mentioned were always in terms of differences in ideas about how to preach or propagate the KC movement. I don't think Srila Prabhupada really criticised his Godbrothers for having misonceptions about the Gaudiya siddhanta. I don't think Srila Prabhupada even thought any such thing.