Guruvani

Does killing the cow make milk as no longer "liquid religion"? Should the milk of these poor cows then be rejected and their contribution to human society then rejected? Is the cow still not a sacred animal even though it is slaughterd? How does killing the cow make the milk that it produces when it is alive as unnacceptable? Prabhupada was told that the American milk industry puts fish oil in the milk to add vitamin D. He knew that the cows in the milk industry were slaughtered. Despite knowing this he still allowed commercial milk to be used in temples. When devotees wanted to know if we should not offer that kind of milk to the deities Prabhuapda said "we can't be fanatics". There is no need to manufacture our own religion of rejecting commercial milk. It is unfair to the cows to not let their milk be used for offerings and to benefit human society. Have mercy on the poor cows. Let them make their offerings to human society. Don't let the killers of the cows discredit the goodness of the cows and their milk.

If we look into the actual agenda of the GALVA type devotees we will find that their goal is to have gay temple presidents, gay brahmins, gay GBC members and beleive it or not GAY SANNYASIS! Why can't they just be satisfied that they are welcome to attend temple programs like everyone else. Why do they insist that the whole world has to accept being GAY as some sort of race or national origin. If I were King........immediately after GAY PRIDE DAY, they would have to go back to being ashamed!

Prabhupada wanted the devotees to have their own sub-culture and microcosm within the greater secular society. It is really great that there are some devotees out there who can maintain their sadhana independently, but that is not true in many, many cases. I know so many Prabhupada disciples who lost their principles when they left ISKCON and the support structure it provided. Very few of the disciples outside ISKCON are doing that. It is also impossilbe for new devotees to attain to that standard without the kind of association and support that living in the temple or the immediate temple community provides. Low class devotees like myself need a good support structure. That is why I am fighting so hard to make ISKCON a place where the disciples of Prabhupada can come back home to and get the kind of association and support they need. It will never happen as long as the ISKCON guru system alienates them as unsuitable assocaition for their disciples and displaces them in their service.

Prabhupada wanted his Godbrothers to cooperate with ISKCON and the GBC but all he got was resisitance, suppression, compression and depression. They will never cooperate with ISKCON. All they have done and will do is resist, reject and rebuke the managing authority of ISKCON. It is not ISKCON that is refusing to cooperate with them. It is them refusing to cooperate with the authority Prabhupada established in ISKCON. Take not also that the "LILAMRITA" is shastra, it was never authorized by Prabhupada and was written against the express permission of Srila Prabhupada. It's contents can never be used as authoritative reference like shastra. And these few short obscure, non-shastric quotes from Prabhupada do not override all the letters and statements Prabhupada made about his Godbrothers over the years. He wanted to try and divert any attempt of his Godbrothers to undermine ISKCON after his departure so he tried to say some things and do some things that would minimize the ongoing conflict. It is offensive to try and undermine all the written, explicit and direct orders of Srila Prabhupada to his disciples by using something he said privately to his Godbrothers. Where does Prabhupada say that all his previous insructions on this matter are now nul and void? He never did. Your arguments are very week and based upon out-of-context statements and presumption. If Prabhupada wanted all his previous insructions to his disciples to be nullified on this matter he would have made it very clear. You are attempting to override the instructions that Prabhupada gave quite forcefully, explicity and directly to his disciples by using these out of context references from unauthorized sources. It is an abuse of Prabhupada's words and a sorry excuse for allowing the Gaudiya Math leaders to come into ISCKON, undermine the GBC authority, contradict Srila Prabhupada and initiate ISKCON devotees as their own. COOPERATE means; YOU OPERATE your own mission, I OPERATE my own mission and respecting each others right to do so is cooperation.

Nothing has changed. Same old dogma with a different melody. Being a funeral director is hardly credentials for being the successor to Srila Prabhupada. Narayana Maharaja is good at burying Prabhupada. Even today he is still trying to bury Prabhupada with smriti dogma.

Prabhupada wrote Narayana Maharaja in the early years of ISKCON and begged him to join with him in his preaching efforts in America. Narayana Maharaja refused to come and see firsthand how Prabhupada was conducting ISKCON. Prabhupada wanted Narayana Maharaja to get trained by him personally for a part in ISKCON but Prabhupada's plea fell on deaf ears. Narayana Maharaja refused to cooperate with Prabhupada in accepting his role in ISKCON according to how Prabhupada wanted him to come on Prabhupada's terms and under his conditions. After the passing of Prabhupada, Narayana Maharaja decided it was time to stick his nose into the movement and come in under his own terms - not the terms Prabhupada wanted. Therefore, since Narayana Maharaja refused to obey Prabhupada's request to come join him and get trained for his service in ISKCON, he has missed the boat and is therefore ineligible for taking a part under his own terms in direct disobediance to the request of Prabhupada to come and learn from Prabhupada what his role could have been. Therefore, he should not have gotten involved in the affairs of Prabhupada disciples and the international Krishna consciousness movement that Prabhupada left to the charge of his disciples - not Narayana Maharaja.

It is not a matter of faith. It is a practical observation that these Gaudiya Math types have had longer than Srila Prabhupada to do preaching in the western world but they have done nothing except intrude and exploit the movement that Prabhupada established in the western world. They have done nothing except ride the coat-tails of Srila Prabhupada. It is pathetic that all they can do is scrounge for remnants of the ISKCON efforts. They should be ashamed to stick their nose into the workings of the international Krishna consciousness movement. They wanted nothing to do with it when Prabhupada was in charge, but after he left they were like vultures ready to pounce on the movement for scraps and pieces.

Well, they have had over fourty or fifty years to do something and they don't have anything yet except a couple of rented storefronts in all of America. At this rate it will take them 60,000 years to get a few real temples established. They only have 10,000 years of the Golden Age of Mahaprabhu to get something done, so I guess your pipe dream will remain just that.

You keep missing my point that the success of ISCKON is very important to the welfare of mankind. Without a spiritual society to give devotees support and structure, the movement will not accomplish the goals of Prabhupada. Without ritvik, ISKCON will fail pitifully and we will have nothing but Gaudiya Math gurus initiating devotees all over the world and then leaving them without support or association that can help them make Krishna consciousness a reality instead of a pipe dream. Ritvik is crucial to the success of ISKCON. The success of ISKCON is the hope for the world - not some preachers of smriti dogma from the Gaudiya Math. None of you devotees living independently in secular society are following the principles, chanting 16 rounds a day etc. etc. Admit it! Without ISKCON you are all failures in spiritual life.

Post deleted by Admin5

That doesn't mean anything. How about his whole name, who his diksha guru is, who his siksha gurus are and something about his history as a devotee?

This is not a new idea I have come up with. I am going to post some quotes from my ritvik website that has been up for over a year. ............................. How many times have we heard Srila Prabhupada use the term "joining ISKCON" or "joining the society"? Well, I am not going to attempt to count every time Srila Prabhupada has used this term, but we can easily see that he has used this term many, many times in his books, letters and lectures. For the sake of discussion lets take a look at just one small book, The Nectar of Instruction, which contains specific information and details for the guidance of persons who have taken to the cultivation of Krsna consciousness in connection with the Krsna consciousness movement. Upadeshamrita constitutes the first instructions for neophyte devotees. Srila Prabhupada starts the book in the preface with "This Krsna consciousness movement is conducted under the supervision of Srila Rupa Goswami". So, from the very onset the very first idea that Srila Prabhupada is promoting is the concept of a "movement" or society of devotees which we must approach and join if we indeed seek the cultivation of Krsna consciousness under his guidance and the guidance of Srila Rupa Goswami. Conspicuous by it's absence is the terminology "becoming a disciple of a guru" or "accepting a guru". Quite contrary to the notion of accepting one person or one guru as one's shelter and guide, Srila Prabhupada is clearly and unambiguously advocating the concept of "joining the society" or "joining the Krsna consciousness movement". (1) A follower of the Krsna consciousness movement should become a perfect Goswami. (Upadeshamrita, preface.) Here Srila Prabhupada says we must be followers of "The Krsna consciousness movement". He does not stress the idea of accepting one particular guru, rather of accepting the movement, the society of devotees. (2) This spiritual association offered by our ISKCON movement is increasing day by day. Many people from different parts of the world are joining this society to awaken their dormant Krsna consciousness. (Text 2 purport) Notice how Srila Prabhupada is using the term "joining this society" rather than "becoming my disciples" or "becoming disciples of my disciples". (3) This Krsna consciousness movement offers a spiritual community that can bring about a peaceful condition in the world. Every intelligent man should purify his consciousness and rid himself of the above-mentioned hindrances to devotional service by taking wholehearted shelter of this Krsna consciousness movement.(Upadeshamrita text 2, purport). (4) The International Society for Krsna consciousness is opening many centers just to invite people to live in the company of devotees and practice the regulative principles of life.(Upadeshamrita text 2, purport) (5) Many interested people come to honor prasada, and whenever possible they invite members of the society to their homes and feed them sumptuously with prasada. In this way both the members of the society and the general public are benefitted. (Upadeshamrita text 4, purport) Notice how Srila Prabhupada is referring to devotees as "members of the society" as opposed to "my disciples" or "their disciples". (6) Everyone is invited to join this movement , sit with us, take prasada and hear about Krsna. When we see that someone is actually interested in Krsna consciousness and wants to be initiated, we accept him as a disciple for the chanting of the Holy Name of the Lord.(Upadeshamrita text 5, purport). Such references in the books, letters and lectures of Srila Prabhupada are numerous and plentiful. Srila Prabhupada clearly advocated the concept of "joining ISKCON" or "joining the Krsna consciousness movement". Here in just the first six verses of Upadeshamrita we find several such references and such references are many throughout the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. We find not one statement where Srila Prabhupada says that any of his disciples would become diksha gurus in ISKCON after his departure. However, there is very profound and significant evidence that Srila Prabhupada did want the Rtvik system to continue after his departure.

Dear Mr. Nobody(anonymous guest who is duplistic and hides his true indentity). Nobody is saying that Prabhupada is the SOLE guru for the next 10,000 years. This is pure manure to accuse the ritvik proponents of saying this. There will be many gurus of many Maths and sects in the next 10,000 years. Ritvik only means that Prabhupada deputized ritviks to initiate on his behalf for the foreseeable future of ISKCON, in ISKCON and for ISKCON. To see a difference between Prabhupada's death and his life goes against the teachings of the shastra that a true sad-guru is not affected by so-called death. Living or dead makes no difference for a sad-guru like Prabhupada. To call Prabhupada a dead guru is offensive and a way of calling him a conditioned soul who is affected by death. A pure devotee is not affected by death. Life and death are the same for the sad-guru.

A GBC is unprecedented. Preaching in western countries is unprecedented. Gayatri by tape is unprecedented. Pre-samadhi ritivk is unprecedented. Gurus under the authority of a GBC is unprecedented. Women on the altar is unprecedented. Prabhupada is unprecedented. If we use precedent as the criterian then we have to reject the GBC wholesale, we have to reject women on the altar, we have to reject the disciples of Prabhupada who received gayatri by tape. If we use precedent as the criteria then we have to reject ISKCON totally as ISKCON is unprecedented. There is a first time for everything. Besides, we should actually be seeing ritvik as a form of initiation into the ISKCON society rather than initiation as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Devotees should be initiated into ISKCON as a society of living gurus rather than the personal disciples of one particular guru. This is the real purpose of ritvik, not becoming a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

Though I personally prefer the ritvik concept for ISKCON, as I think that only the ritvik concept can make ISKCON thrive and prosper as it was envisioned to do, I would like to express a few positive appreciations for what it is I admire about the GBC and the ISKCON gurus. What I like most about the GBC and the ISCKON gurus is that they are almost cent percent exclusively devoted to Srila Prabhupada and his books. In todays movement we have so many disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have gone outside Prabhupada's siksha to take siksha from a number of Gaudiya Math type sannyasis and other similar offshoots of the Gaudiya Math. I have personally been one of them. I was amongst the earliest group of devotees in ISCKON to leave ISKCON and join the group of followers of Sridhar Maharaja. I was the first pujari and the head cook at his first western temple in San Jose, California. I have to admit that I have some serious affection and appreciation for the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, though I have never been a proponent of trying to introduce his books or siksha into ISKCON. Over the years I have realized that there really is none except Srila Prabhupada who has the insight and vision of leading ISKCON. Sridhar Maharaja was a man of his own tattva as was Srila Prabhupada. They are both outstanding in their own ways but even though I admire Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Govinda Maharaja and some of the other Gaudiya Math type devotees (even Narayana Maharaja), I don't think that there is anyone other than Srila Prabhupada who should have any input into the management and leadership of ISCKON. For example, in Sridhar Maharaja's Math there are many rigid principles of smriti that Prabhupada did not introduce in ISCKON like no eating of carrots etc. etc. I remember than in ISKCON carrots were a staple in the vegetables used in making subjis (though I personally don't cook with carrots myself). In Sridhar Maharaja's Math it is a sin to eat carrots and several other things that Prabhupada allowed for ISKCON. I personally see most of these types of principles in Sridhar Maharaja's Math as conforming to some smriti principles that are practiced in smarta-brahmin lines and since Sridhar Maharaja was from a brahmin family he was obliged to maintain some of these smriti principles as a way of earning the respect of the smarta-brahmin community who also should be brought into Krishna consciousness. Sridhar Maharaja was in a position of trying to make Krishna consciousness respectable in the eyes of the smarta-brahmin community and so he applied some of the smriti principles in his Math. Sridhar Maharaja also does not observe Julan-yatra or allow rasa-lila to be shown in portrait etc. etc. He is very conservative in regards to maintaining the sacredness of these things and does not like that such things be made so cheap or public. In this way, Sridhar Maharaja and the other Gaudiya Math type devotees are not good candidates for ISKCON leadership. They most all maintain some kind of smriti dogma that Srila Prabhupada renounced in adapting Krishna consciousness to the western countries. So, this is what I appreciate about the ISCKON gurus though I don't beleive that ISCKON will ever really succeed or prosper without the revival of the ritvik system. ISCKON gurus are chaste and loyal to Srila Prabhupada's teachings and this is their great redeeming quality. They are mostly all purebred Prabhupada men and I admire this feature about the GBC and ISCKON. I don't think that any Gaudiya Math type acharya or sannyasis should be allowed to have any input into the affairs of ISKCON - not even Sridhar Maharaja. We can see that he somewhat encouraged the guru fiasco in the days of the ritvik conspiracy and we can see the results of that. Though that does not diminish my appreciation for the greateness and glories of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada pointed out that Sridhar Maharaja was similarly involved in the failed successor acharya movement after the passing of BSSGM. History repeats itself in this regard. So, my hat is off to the ISCKON gurus and the GBC for trying to maintain a strictly Prabhupada oriented leadership over ISCKON. The guru fiasco in ISKCON was the result of deviating from that principle somewhat and taking too much input from outside sources like Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja etc. If they would have just stayed with the guidance that Prabhupada gave and the ritvik system he left ISKCON with, the movement would today be a lot better off and much more successful in fullfilling the goals of Srila Prabhupada. What we have to realize now is that the guru system in ISCKON today is the result of going outside Prabhupada to these Gaudiya Math type sadhus for guidance and leadership. Prabhupada left us with a ritvik system and it was due to the influence of outside sources like Narayana Maharaja and Sridhar Maharaja that the ritvik system was abandoned by the ritviks and the GBC. If the GBC and the gurus of ISKCON want to truly be able to claim exclusive and pure following of Srila Prabhupada, then they will have to resort back to the ritvik system that Srila Prabhupada left is with. The guru system in ISKCON is the product of disobeying Prabhupada and taking guidance from the smriti sadhus of the Gaudiya Math. It is not the brainchild of Srila Prabhupada. So, this is my praise of the ISKCON GBC and the gurus that for the most part they are followers of Srila Prabhupada and his books to the exclusion of so many Gaudiya Math type sadhus and gurus, with the exception to the gurus system in ISKCON which is in place due to the influence and input of these Gaudiya Math sadhus who have no vision or understanding of how and why ritvik is necessary and vital for the success of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON society. My hope and prayer is that the GBC will see the error of this gurus system in ISCKON and abandon the smriti dogma that has caused this breakdown in the progess of ISKCON. If they want to truly be able to claim that they are pure followers of Prabhupada and not the Gaudiya Math, then they must revive the ritvik system in ISKCON or forever face the scorn and ridicule of so many disciples of Prabhupada who know the truth about Prabhupada and his ritvik system for ISCKON.

thanks to both.........

There have been devotees in the past that thought like that. But, Srila Rupa Goswami has instructed that devotees should be honest and respectible in ordinary dealings. If some miser has some money that is his karma. Taking it from him by force of murder is nothing that has been sacntioned by the great acharyas. In fact Bhaktivinode Thakur was a district magistrate in charge of punishing criminals who broke the secular laws. Committing crimes in the name of God gives a bad name to religion and does a disservice to God. God does not want that. God can give you the intelligence to make that money honestly if you want to make money for his cause. Committing crimes in the name of God is a big offense to the cause of dharma and religion. Look at the fanatic ISLAMIC terrorists and you can see where this kind of thinking ends up. It is not sanctioned by God. He does not want blood money stolen from murdered misers. He gave that money to the miser. Let the miser keep what God has given him. It is foolish and ignorant to think that you can please God by killing misers. If God wanted the miser dead the miser would be dead immediatly. Don't try to play God with the life of anyone, even a miserly fool.

I don't see what is wrong with having a yard dog or farm cats outside. I had a yard dog for a few years. After he got loose and got killed on the road I decided to never have another pet. I was sad when he got killed. I didn't like the fact that I was attached to a dog that way but you can't avoid it if you keep pets around your home.

anybody here know what thread I can find that flash movie with the devotional theme. I wanted to show it to my son but now I can't find it.

I could tell some ghost tales myself, but I learned a long time ago that if you talk about ghosts you are inviting them and they come immediately. I have had experience in the past that when I start telling ghost tales the hairs on arms start to rise and I immediatly feel the presence of ghosts. Everybody has had some ghostly encounters whether they know it or not. My advice is to not talk about ghosts at all. You are inviting ghostly haunting by doing so. How about lets talk about our spiritual dreams of meeting Prabhupada or dancing in front of Lord Jagannatha or something? Maybe I could tell my story about hearing Krishna play his flute all night when I was sleeping in the brahmachary ashram in L.A. right accross from the altar in the next building. If you haven't heard the flute music of Krishna, you have missed something wonderful.

Because everyone is under the three moders of nature; goodness, passion and ingorance, they are serving God. Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita: This divine energy of mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is very difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto me can easily cross beyond it. ch.7 text 15 The material energy is a divine energy of God. Everyone is serving this material energy. In this way everyone is serving God perfectly according to the modes of material nature. They are serving God in an indirect way. It cannot be avoided to serve God, everyone is, even if they do not want to. However, if a soul surrenders to God and serves him with love and devotion then he goes to the spiritual energy to serve God there in a spiritual way. In this world we serve God in a material way through the material energy of the three modes of material nature. By learning to love God and serve him spiritually we can become qualified to go to the spiritual world and serve him there in eternal bliss and knowledge.

Because the pure devotee sees that everyone is seeking pleasure. Nobody is seeking pain. Since Krishna is the akhila rasamrita murti, the reservoir of pleasure, he sees that everybody is serving and seeking pleasure. Pleasure is Krishna - Krishna is pleasure. In this way everybody in the world is serving and seeking Krishna. He sees everything and everyone acting perfectly under the laws of nature, the laws of God as obediant servants of the Almighty God.

Please listen to Lord Gauranga! He will not cheat you! He does not want your money or followers or prestige! Lord Gauranga proclaims: One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest candala class can be delivered. Madhya 15 text 108 Here is the truth as spoken from the lips of Mahaprabhu. He has no agenda. He promotes no dogma. He has no ax to grind. He doesn't need your money. He doesn't want followers to gratify his desire for prestige and power. He just speaks the truth devoid of all the worldy motives.

In other words the chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on OFFICIAL INITIATION, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (deity worship), his Krishna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. Madhya 15 text 108 purport In this purport Prabhupada refers to OFFICIAL INITIATION which infers that there is an UNOFFICIAL INITIATION that occurs when one is first receives the Maha-mantra from some source. This seems to contradict some dogma that we hear nowadays that we must have siksha or diksha from some so-called rasik acharya to be able to chant Hare Krishna with any effect?