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Guruvani

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  1. Actually, the term sadhu means "one who cuts". The words of a sadhu are sometimes very cutting and difficult to hear. In the Gita, Lord Krishna starts his instructions by essentially calling Arjuna a fool. (while speaking learned words, you are lamenting for that what is not worthy of grief). A sadhu does not come to charm or sweet talk. His purpose is to speak the truth whiich is always difficult to hear for the materially attached. So, in effect I don't agree with the supposition of the opening post of this thread.
  2. Diksha means "initiation". Actual initiation occurs when you hear the maha-mantra from a devotee for the first time. Then there is formal initiation when one takes vows and get formally accepted in the society of devotees called ISKCON. Prabhupada advocated a form of initiation into the movement, the society of devotees. He did not advocate taking diksha from an individual disciple of his. He deputed the GBC to authorize senior members to initiate new devotees into the society but not as their own personal disciples. New devotees are to initiated into the ISKCON society as disciples of Prabhupada, not as the disciples of his disciples. That was Prabhupada's idea and he repeats this theme of joining the society of devotees, joining the MOVEMENT or joining ISKCON over and over again throughout his books. He never advocated becoming a disciple of his disciples, rather joining the society and becoming a part of something much bigger and better than one individual disciple of his could offer.
  3. Actually, it has been foretold in shastra that the spiritual movement of Mahaprabhu would rise in the east and set in the west. India gave birth to the movement but actually the movement will grow and mature in the western countries more so than in India. Srila Prabhupada created tirthas all over the world wherever his lotus feet traversed, so now India does not have any exclusive monopoly on spiritual culture. There are temples of Krishna all over the world now, so the whole world is actually part of Bharata-varsha once again. India is likely to face a nuclear demise in the future and Srila Prabhupada himself alluded to a nuclear holocaust for the future of India. Prabhupada said that most of his disciples were Indians in there previous lives and so they have already taken birth in India and acquired the merits to get the opportunity to be a part of Prabhupada's service to Mahaprabhu.
  4. I would recommend that one year affiliation with the movement is nowhere near enough time to be making a decision who to accept as a diksha guru. The main thing is that you have received the maha-mantra from the Hare Krishna devotees and you are thus duly initiated already. Just practice chanting and learning the books of Srila Prabhupada. There is no reason to rush into taking formal diksha. I would recommend another three or four years to observe and learn before accepting formal diksha. Prabhupada took over ten years before he accepted formal diksha from his gurudeva. With all the tragedy and turmoil associated with the ISKCON guru fiasco, I would be very cautious to very quickly make a decision on this matter.
  5. Devotees names like Hari das indicate that one is a servant of God. There is no higher position to be had than that of servant of God. Being servant of lust or servant of anger or servant of women is not a very great accomplishment. Being servant of God is the highest position a soul can attain. It is a great honorific title and not at all something that demeans a person.
  6. Prabhupada rejected the term Hindu and said that it was a term used by peoples west of the Indus river to refer to peoples east of the Indus river. It is not a Sanskrit term to describe the Vedic dharma that ISKCON is supposed to be founded on. Prabhupada said the proper designation of ISKCON was "Varnashrama". ISKCON was meant for establishing Varnashrama dharma in a society of devotees. ISKCON is not even properly a Gaudiya Vaishnava institution in terms of the vaishnava smrti given by Sanatan Goswami. Prabhupada rejected much of the smrti that Sanatan Goswami advocated. He said that it meant to keep pace with the smarta vidhi that the brahmanas practiced and established by Sanatan Goswami for that purpose. ISKCON is Varnashrama according to Srila Prabhupada and since he is the one who founded it I guess his description should be the most authoritative.
  7. What is the meaning of Sankirtan? Sankirtan is the congegational chanting of the Holy Name, the congregational service of the pure devotee and the congregational association of devotees. Sankirtan is the mission, the institution that Mahaprabhu gave. He did not create a kirtan culture, rather a Sankirtan culture or what is called a movement of devotees dedicated to practicing the tenents of Mahaprabhu and his Sankirtan system. Sankirtan is an institution. Sankirtan is a mission. Sankirtan is the institution and mission of Mahaprabhu. Srila Prabhupada formalized that mission into a non-profit corperation meant for the purpose advocated by Rupa Goswami: "dadati pratigrhnati guhyam akhyati prcchati bhunkte bhojayate caiva sad-vidham priti-laksanam" Offering gifts in charity, accepting charitable gifts, revealing one's mind in confidence, inquiring confidentially, accepting prasada and offering prasada are the six symptoms of love shared by one devotee and another. Prabhupada writes; "The International Society for Krishna Consciousness has been established to facilitate these six kinds of loving exchanges between devotees" This is Prabhupada's institution. This is his mission in esatablishing ISKCON. Who could possibly reject the advice of Rupa Goswami and ignore the institution he advocated for practicing these principles?
  8. What I mean by institution is a matha, mandira or a society. The technical term for a society established by a guru is called "acharya sampradaya". Sampradaya is sometimes misunderstood to mean "parampara" but actually sampradaya means "community" or "society". When an acharya establishes a large following of devotees, that community of devotees around him and his mission is called a "sampradaya". ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada's acharya sampradaya. What is a guru without a following? Can one be a professor without a class to teach? Not all pure devotees have a following or make disciples, so who are they guru of? Haridas Thakur did not have any formal disciples, so what was his mission? Was he just a self-interested soul who's only purpose was his own salvation alone? Or, was his mission the greatest mission of all; to deliver Mayadevi herself? A mission means a purpose and a goal. Sometimes that mission can be formalized into an institution and sometimes it remains informal. Haridas thakur did not have a formal mission, neither did he have any formal disciples. He definetely did not have a non-profit organization established to promote Krishna consciousness. However, Haridas did have a mission and that mission was to deliver Mayadevi from her illusion that Lord Shiva was supreme. That is a very great mission and nothing less than any mission of the great acharyas in Gaudiya history.
  9. How many disciples did haridas have? maybe one? Mayadevi herself? his mission was to deliver mayadevi from her infatuation with Lord Shiva and reveal to her the lotus feet of Harinama. I think delivering mayadevi is about as great a mission as one could possibly undertake. to make a pure devotee of Krishna out of Lord Shiva's wife is quite a mission indeed!
  10. this topic is so ridiculous, I can't figure out why it even has a following. it was started to insult and demeam westerners, as if easterners are really any better. nowadays Indians eat meat and partake of all the materialistic diversions coming from the west. the whole world is chasing after materialism, except perhaps the Muslims whose main mission is to destroy all non-muslim people
  11. Prema, or love of God, is already in the heart. It must be uncovered and unleashed. It is not something that one has to acquire from another. This idea that prema is something that one gets by loitering around some so-called guru, is a fictitious ploy used by bogus gurus to earn their livelyhood. Prema is uncovered and unleashed in the heart through sacrifice and dedication. It is not something magical that one gets by buying a plane ticket to India and loitering around some so-called sadhu. You cannot get prema by buying a plane ticket to India. Prema is realized and awakened through total sacrifice, committment and dedication to service of the mission of the pure devotee. And we know from the teachings of the six goswamis that Mahaprabhu had a mission. This is the same mission adopted by his devotees and that mission is to distribute the Holy Name to all the fallen souls of the world. A guru without a mission (an institution) is no guru at all, as Mahaprabhu started the mission to deliver all the fallen souls and all his sincere followers try to serve that mission of Mahaprabhu.
  12. I don't think that prema is something that is given as much as it is something that is earned. Prema is the attainment of those whose lives are filled with sacrifice and surrender and it is not something that is just given away so easily and cheaply to the undeserving. What is given away very easily is the knowledge of how to attain prema. What one does with that knowledge determines whether one attains prema or not. Institutions don't give prema either. But, service to more advanced devotees will help one attain prema. If that institution is an institution dedicated to serving the mission of a pure devotee then yes, serving that institution can help one attain prema. Sadhu-sanga is also an institution. An institution can be an institution of pure devotees and indeed serving them can help one attain prema. Mahaprabhu gave us an institution; he gave us the Sankirtan movement - the society of pure devotees. So, there is a great benefit in serving an institution, otherwise why did Saraswati Goswami form the Gaudiya Math? Why did Keshava Maharaja form the GVS? Why did Sridhar Maharaja for the CSM? Institutions have been established by many great acharyas. If institutions were not instrumental in helping devotees advance in devotional service then why have so many great acharyas established institutions? Does not Narayana Maharaja belong to an institution of Vaishnavas? What we are calling an institution is actually another term for sadhu-sanga and guru-seva. By serving the guru's institution we can serve the guru and get so much valuable association. In this way, the institutions of the great acharyas are very important facilities for advancing in devotional service.
  13. Also, if you read Prabhupada's books closely, you will see that he advocates the conception of "joining the society", "joining ISKCON", "joining the Krishna consciousness movement" etc. etc. Prabhupada repeats this theme constantly in his books and lectures. The concept of joining a society or joining ISKCON portrays somewhat of a different idea than becoming the disciple of an individual so-called guru. Prabhupada gave us something bigger than our own individual efforts; he gave us a society, a movement that offered so much more than any one devotee can be as spiritual master. Prabhupada taught that his disciples were actually initiated into his society(ISKCON)more than as initiated as his direct disciples. He had some direct disciples, but he also had many disciples that he never personally knew. Being a part of Prabhupada's society is something much bigger, greater and better than being the disciple of one individual follower of Prabhupada. Prabhupada gave the world a whole society of gurus and taught that joining this society was his idea of accepting the parampara. When a new devotee takes initiation from an individual disciple of Srila Prabhupada instead of being initiated into the whole society as Prabhupada advocated, he many times looses the benefit of the association and instruction of so many other wonderful disciples of Srila Prabhupada. He minimizes the value of their instruction by thinking that he only has one guru, his diksha guru. This is a great loss. In the Prabhupada era of ISKCON, new devotees got guidance, training and instruction from so many wonderful, senior devotees. Nowadays, they restrict their instruction to one so-called diksha guru and loose all the good instruction they should have been getting from so many other senior devotees. This is not what ISKCON was supposed to be about. Prabhupada advocated "joining the society" not "joining a diksha guru's private club". Read his books and you will see that Prabhupada advocated a somewhat different version of the parampara than the ancient, unsuitable system of traditional guru-disciple parampara. Go through the Nectar of Instruction and see how many times Prabhupada advocates "joining the society", "joining the movement" etc. etc. He uses this theme hundreds of times throughout his books and this was his reformed idea of parampara for the western world and the modern age. Siksha guru is no less important than diksha guru. Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to be siksha guru. However, his system was for joining the society - not for becoming a disciple of any individual devotee within the society. If you read his books you will see this. The society of a great spiritual master like Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON is called "acharya sampradaya". Joining the society established by a great acharya is non-different than becoming his direct disciple. Such acharya sampradayas have existed in the history of the parampara and such a society is certainly the best system for the movement of the modern day. When a great acharya establishes such a society he sometimes deputizes some disciples to initiate new devotees into the society. This system is just as legitimate as the less appropriate method of direct guru-disciple methods more favored in smaller circles and ancient times.
  14. In Srila Prabhupada's translation of Upadesh-amrita of Rupa Goswami; THE NECTAR OF INSTRUCTION he orders: quote "One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari" text 5 purport So, all of the above quotes should be taken face value, but in light of what Prabhupada says in the books as well. When unfit disciples try to become spiritual master from the lower positions of madhyama and kanistha, chaos is wrought upon the movement and we have seen plenty of that since the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada. In order to prevent that kind of disaster Srila Prabhupada took extraordinary measures to remedy that problem. However, after he left so many unqualified disciples tried to neglect his measures and prematurely attempt to act as spiritual master. The result is that ISKCON broke and splintered and practically disintegrated. What we now have is a movement that has lost most of it's credibility over this guru fiasco and smrti gurus from the Gaudiya Math are now being dragged into the movement and contradicting Srila Prabhupada's reforms at the cost of international confusion around the movement.
  15. I heard that some purana tells the tale of the time when Lord Shiva's bull Nandi was killed by some asura or whatever and his body parts were scattered about the earth. Wherever these bodyparts fell is where garlic and onions and some other plants grew from. That is why eating garlic and onions is to be considered like eating the flesh of Nandi the greatly pious Bull of Lord Shiva. So, in this way it could be considered worse than eating meat from lower animals like pigs and chickens etc.
  16. I heard that some purana tells the tale of the time when Lord Shiva's bull Nandi was killed by some asura or whatever and his body parts were scattered about the earth. Wherever these bodyparts fell is where garlic and onions and some other plants grew from. That is why eating garlic and onions is to be considered like eating the flesh of Nandi the greatly pious Bull of Lord Shiva. So, in this way it could be considered worse than eating meat from lower animals like pigs and chickens etc.
  17. Nobody says that. That is just what ISKCON outsiders like to accuse ISKCON devotees of claiming in order to make ISKCON devotees look stupid and arrogant. Nobody in ISKCON says that. This is just some foolishness that those who envy ISKCON devotees like to accuse them of falsely. You can have your Gaudiya Math gurus. Nobody is stopping you. Why can't you just follow your own guru and leave ISKCON to it's own devices. Nobody is being forced to accept ISKCON. In today's world you have your choice, so just go your own way and quit harrassing those devotees whom you have chosen to reject in favor of Gaudiya Math gurus who want you to practice smrti that was meant for Brahmanas coming from smarta families. Prabhupada adapted Krishna consciousness to the western world and the smrti gurus of the Gaudiya Math don't have a clue. Karma-kanda smrti will never help you attain prem. It was just meant to appease smarta brahmanas and make Vaishnavism respected and appealing to these smarta brahmanas. It has nothing to do with pure bhakti in the ultimate consideration. Even if some so-called ISKCON devotee says this, Prabhupada never did and ISKCON is his institution.... not theirs!
  18. If evolution is a constant rule of nature, then why is it that crocodiles have not evolved at all in the last 250,000,000 years? Why is it that some species evolve and some don't. Darwinian evolution says that all forms of life have evolved from a single organism, yet science tells us today that crocodiles have not evolved at all in the last 250,000,000 million years? How can crocodiles be exempt from the law of evolution? Darwinian evolution is such a pathetic theory that it does not deserve any recognition in the world of science. According to Darwin, white man evolved from the black man who evolved from the neanderthal. His theory is a very racist concept that proposes that the black man is less evolved than the white man and is more closely related to the neanderthal. Is that what schools should be teaching today that Black people as less evolved than white people and are only a few generations removed from the neanderthal? There is some form of adaptation and evolution in all species of life, but that is not an evolution of one species to another. It is just a natural adaptation to the evironment, but it is not an evolution to another species. That has not at all been proven by science. Darwinian evolution is a non-scientific theory proposed by a man who noticed that some species evolve different features according to their environment. The evolution of species is a quantum leap from the evolution by species and there is no scientific evidence to suggest the evolution of species.
  19. In essence, the Ayatollahs and Mullahs are gods of the Islamic religion. These Ayatollahs are very influential, powerful and important persons in the Islamic world. Such a position of power and authority could easily fall within the definiton of a "god" of the Hindu religion. Actually, Islamic faith does not afford such power and authority to any man, though modern Islamic culture has elevated the power and influence of these Ayatollahs to roughly the equivelant of a minor Hindu god. A "god" is just a subordinant controller (to God) or a powerful person who has some exceptional authority or influence. A President is like a "god", as he has great power and authority. A King is like a god who has great power and authority. There are millions of "gods" in the Hindu conception. However, since there is really only one "God" or supreme "God of gods" in the Vedic religion, there really is no "polytheism" in the Vedic culture. This term "polytheistic" is a western term and there is no Vedic reference that God is a polytheistic conception. Western people call the Hindu religion "polytheistic", but the real Vedic religion is not polytheistic. Polytheism really means to indicate that there is no one supreme God and that there are actually many Gods. This is not the Vedic version at all. Vedic religion is not polytheistic, as it really does not propose the concept that there are many "Gods". There are many "gods" or actually "demigods" in the Vedic religion, but the term "demigod" is more appropriate than "god". The great spiritual masters of the Vedic dharma refer to these "gods" more appropriately as "demigods" which means they are only possessing some partial qualities of God. The point is, polytheism means that there is no one supreme God, just a host of gods whom sprout from the plane of undifferentiatied absolute spiritual existence. This is not the true teaching of the Vedas according to the Vaishnava gurus. Hinduism is not even a Vedic term. It was a designation placed on the people east of the Indus river by people who lived west of the Indus river. It is not a Vedic classification or definition of the Vedic religion. The Vedic religion is therefore not polytheistic. It is monotheistic in the strictest sense of the term. Only adversaries and opponents of the Vedic religion call it polytheistic. But such a claim is false and simply meant as a way to denigrate and demean the Vedic religion by fanatic religious cults that were created in the name of Mohammed and Christ.
  20. I don'y think there is any harm in the preacher espousing his Christian propaganda here, but my point was that people like him take it that Hare KRishna devotees are just cult members who have never known the Christian tenents. I was simply trying to inform him that most all devotees were brought up in Judeo-Christian families and know well Christian philosophy. These Christian types can sometimes have a very narrow understanding of where these American Hare Krishna devotees came from. Many devotees were Christians before they became devotees. That is my point.
  21. Whatever the British did to India, we know from shastra could not have happened unless it was sanctioned by God as a karma on the land of India. "Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God" India got it's just karma and no less. The British can be blamed for the misfortune of India, but actually India was simply getting the collective Karma of it's peoples. If not for the British, India today might be ruled by a Muslim theocracy through suppression and genocide of the Hindus. We cannot understand the karma or destiny of India with our limited views. Playing the blame game on the British is a fruitless journey into a history that cannot be changed. India must deal with today and the future and let the past sleep in it's grave.
  22. Whatever the British did to India, we know from shastra could not have happened unless it was sanctioned by God as a karma on the land of India. "Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God" India got it's just karma and no less. The British can be blamed for the misfortune of India, but actually India was simply getting the collective Karma of it's peoples. If not for the British, India today might be ruled by a Muslim theocracy through suppression and genocide of the Hindus. We cannot understand the karma or destiny of India with our limited views. Playing the blame game on the British is a fruitless journey into a history that cannot be changed. India must deal with today and the future and let the past sleep in it's grave.
  23. Actually, the whole world belongs to God, not just Israel and Jerusalem. If the whole world is not the property of God then who's property is it? Men will take and divide the whole world for their own purposes. Actually, Israel is a predominantly Jewish state that has it's share of bars, discos and hedonism. Israel itself has taken the Holy Land and legalized bars, discos and all sorts of hedonistic culture. Israel is being erroded from within. Israel as a state is defiling the Holy Land more than Americans or Muslims ever have or ever will. The Muslims would never allow that kind of hedonistic corruption that the state of Israel itself has sanctioned. Who believes this Bible prophecy? People have been predicting apocalypse based on Bible prophecy for thousands of years and none of it has come to pass yet and we don't expect it ever will.
  24. Actually, the whole world belongs to God, not just Israel and Jerusalem. If the whole world is not the property of God then who's property is it? Men will take and divide the whole world for their own purposes. Actually, Israel is a predominantly Jewish state that has it's share of bars, discos and hedonism. Israel itself has taken the Holy Land and legalized bars, discos and all sorts of hedonistic culture. Israel is being erroded from within. Israel as a state is defiling the Holy Land more than Americans or Muslims ever have or ever will. The Muslims would never allow that kind of hedonistic corruption that the state of Israel itself has sanctioned. Who believes this Bible prophecy? People have been predicting apocalypse based on Bible prophecy for thousands of years and none of it has come to pass yet and we don't expect it ever will.
  25. Why does a Christian come into devotee forums and preach Christian propaganda? Devotees do not go to Christian forums and preach Krishna consciousness. I think that preaching Christian concepts in a devotee forum is rude, offensive and motivated by anger and envy of the Vaishnava faith. If devotees wanted to hear Christian propaganda they would go to church on Sunday. If Christians wants to come to a devotee forum to hear and learn then that is fine, but coming here to preach manufactured religion in the name of Christianity hardly seems like a worthwhile endeavor. Most all devotees rejected Christianity to adopt the Vaishnava faith and they are not at all ignorant of Christian philosophy. Assuming that devotees are ignorant of Christian ideology and are suffering from lack of information is a very arrogant attitude as most all the original devotees of Prabhupada came from Judeo-Christian families and are well acquainted with Christian ideology and subsequently adopted Vaishnavism over and above Christianity and are not in need of being subjected to Christiian propaganda.
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