Amlesh

how can schooling end before god realization ???????? until you are god realized you are not an perfected individual. and your guru is always guiding you (whether he is in this body or not ) till you actually see god. being under guru also amounts to schooling !!!!!!!!! till we reach the perfect knowledge(god) we are lacking in knowledge.this means we still have many things to learn. learning is merely the other name of schooling.

 

and assertaining independence from guru amounts to a falldown.

Not exactly.

After learning is over.. the student is supposed to give Guru Dakshana.

After that the student is permitted leave the Guru for Selfless [God Centered] or Selfish [egoistic] action or continue with the mission of the Guru if ever he has one.

Knowledge is never ending, true... but learning continues even while working.

The Guru however remains someone whom we'll always cherish of.

However, in purely spiritual thinking there is no Guru also except God.

When Pandavas were confronted with Drona their Guru.. at that time Swadharma [bhakti to Krishna] ruled.

I guess, selfless actions are much more important than anything.

NB: Arjuna had deep affection for Drona even though in opposition in the Battlefield.

I'll give you an Example Sambya..

Take for example.. Dalai Lama and Gandhi... one is a buddist, the other a Mahatma.

They share the same mission, their countries were/are free.

While Dalai is not exile leaving his country and commenting from far this and that.

The same Gandhi would have dared not only to remain in Tibet but also to venture fearlessly in China to fight them.

A Mahatma knows no pain of his.. but of others.

everyone knows that hinduism is a recent word . strictly speaking it is not a recent word but a later word.

 

Anyways.. it did not exist.

It is the Great Swami Vivekananda himself who once said that is wrong to call us Hindus... the word should have been Vedanta.

i tagged only hinduism because historically there is no indications as yet to show that it was followed by any cultures outside the subcontinent.say greeks , china , middleast etc.

 

Not perfectly ditto.. but elements of that doctrine could be seen on the different surface of the globe..

Gita englobes all that.

If you speak about time then obviously dude... there certain dude.. Gita is timeless.. the very word and concept Nirvana was already known by Arjuna 5000 years back.

Buddha came some 2500 years later to speak about it.

To be more explicit.. the concept of Laissez faire, mixed, oligopolistic, monopolistic and other concepts are not recent inventions.

The first chapter of the Gita explain them to the most and lucidly... the only thing HE HARDLY GIVES ONE THE EYES FOR SEEING ALL THAT IN DETAILS.

AND TO BE MORE TRUE.. I'll say that there is one method of ruling a country that has not yet been discovered by nowadays people but the First CHAPTER of the Gita teaches.

Very few came to know them.... but I guess it is normal.

The Gita has said everything past present and Future...

Whatever great philosophy that might come in the future has already been spoken in the Battlefield to the great archer.

and by 'hinduism' i meant those numerous sects and religions that shared some common things like , belief in vedas , gods and goddeses, similar rituals , guruparampara etc.

 

From the other aspect of that limited thing that you've outlined, Gita beholds the other components of Truth and not only hinduism.

even the ancient yavanas (greeks) collectively meant these religions while coining the term 'hindu'

 

They've played a part in distorting many things..

The Greatest of fools were the Indians who were supposed to guard that Tradition.

Those Indians are in fact still showing their lacuna even now, it is not a mere random event that many of books were destroyed from the Nalanda library.

Funnily, I can't really blame them.. time not only heal wounds but also the cause for degeneration and obsoleteness and deviation.

Luckily, each phrase of the Gita is not touched by the Time Factor.

funny thing with gaudiyas ( not meaning you of course) is that they accept history selectively whenever it suits to thier purpose. for example , they would readily accept this 'origin of hindu ' theory but deny that puranas were written in later hindu ages and continued till 18th century.

They don't know where and when to open their mouth.

i guess that's much better than the other branches.

 

Hmm... what I know interms of organisation and the people down there are really Hard working and doing great job.. just like the Akshaya Patra et al.

I've met some really Great people there. Most of them are Highly qualified people and really admirable too.

I came to know them personally,I mean friendly acquantances.

The Akshaya Patra stuff is really mind blowing service to the Kids, out of love for Krishna.

But since my place of worship can be in my house, my neighbourhood temple, my heart, your heart, their heart and everyone's heart, under a bridge, in the sugar cane field et al.. then I can't really comment on what is really better..

I was not that close also to any institution... what matters to me about any institution is their Doctrine and nothing else.

but obvious !! thats the path you follow !! everyone would love their own path. thats very good.

 

Not exactly.

The sacrifice that they behold is really amazing.

The mahatmas are the only one who work in the Akarmic mode... and no other.

Mahatma is given to only those who behold Hari as their only means of Suport. They don't devise any method to protect themselves even if menaced to death.

They leave everything on Hari. Even though you've seen Gandhiji coming with really amazing methods to gain independence for India but He knew perfectly that the soul never does. His thought coincided with Ram. Even though people saw him doing still He never did.

As he himself said, "If you remove the element of God within me, I'm good for nothing."

i see !!!!!! as for me , my schooling would end the day i meet him face to face. theres no end to knowledge , you know.

It is the most important ELEMENT and more important than seeing Him face to face.

The missing element is the Kaaj [WORK] that you'll need to perform, that is all knowledge acquired transformed into concrete selfless actions for the betterment of this world.

You'll probably notice that none of them is a selfish motive.

That very initial phase of obtaining knowledge for the sake of self happiness or elevation is infact derided in a later stage and transformed into a very selfless motive with no reward in thought and even sacrificing the thought of liberation.

As I said, working in the Akarmic mode is really difficult and mukti is placed as secondary.

im sorry to say amalesh that i find no difference between your understanding and that of those orthodox iskconites. you seem to hold on those very concepts that they preach----that personal god is superior to impersonal god, mayavadis are on incomplete track,mixing with mayavadis would ruin your spiritual lives, everyone else are demigods(even devi and shiva) etc etc.

 

i would like to know in which points do you differ with iskcon as you suggested in other threads.

My intial influence was Iskcon Bangalore.

I've made a lot of visit down there.

I accept the Supremacy of Hari. But it is wrong to say that I don't believe in the sun rays when I know the sun.

But again I say... with no fire.. no light.

with no sun.. then no sunrays.

With no Krishna... then no Brahmajyoti.

I'm saying it again... The sunrays is dependent on the sun but the sun is independent of the rays.

That's where the maxim of Gita helps, "Where I live there is no electricity or any other source of light... it is self illuminating.. GUESS HOW?"

The difference between my thought and their Group thinking is:

1. THE CONCEPT OF SWADHARMA

2. YOU'll FIND ME WORSHIPING MANY OTHER DEITIES.

3. THERE ARE SOME OTHER REASONS WHICH IS REALLY SUBTLE, I'll PREFER NOT TO DISCLOSE.

Sorry Dude.. I said it before and I'll said it again.. I'm on the spiritual path to be able to LOVE the meanest of CRAP as well.. Mayavadis are on a very different level.. they hold one of the best Doctrine in this world.. and I know many who did great job for this world.. for e.g. Sri RadhaKrishnan, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Shankara. I have equal profound respect as much I behold for the Vaishnava acharyas.

But of course, my heart turns emotional for the Mahatmas.

To be true.. I don't mind stay with meanest of crap so far I've Krishna in my mind. Little by little, I'm giving dropping the different types of fear.

BY HIS GRACE.

You are still in a school.

I left mine long time back.........

Society requires noble men and women to teach our children well --or else working for a living will be a hardship.

You've been blessed by Intelligence.

Thanks to Sri Hari.

But very few will be able to understand its implications.

thats when you view it from a spiritual perspective. historically it has always been a essential document of hinduism , not even vaishnavs. no denying that.... by Sambya

Historically, the word Hinduism, is a recent addition in the Data Dictionary.

The thing that existed was the Vedas that followers read and practice.

The Gita even at that time was something really inconceivable by the mass even at the Time.

Its words are eternally True. When He says.. HARDLY ONE KNOWS ME IN TRUTH in this material world.... it is eternally so.

Gita upholds from the Buddist to all kind of philosophies.. the WORD NIRVANA which is the final stuff of the buddist is infact found in the middle of the Gita.

So why only tag Hinduism with that.

The maxim of the Bible... "Dieu creea l'homme a son propre image" meaning.. God created man with its own image... sorry dude for this ugly translation but I guess who've understood.

THE MUSLIM And advaitim thinking of "Brahmajyoti.. Impersonal feature".. that also has been accepted and shown by Krishna Himself in the Gita.

WHY TAG ONLY HINDUISM?

Hey,that's not true.

 

Hanumanji must be chuckling in his mind when Laxmana was "shot down" by the arrow.Sri Ramacandra was CRYING.

Aisa nahi hai....God reveals Himself fully to His prema Bhaktas.

Exception: The Leelas going on in Nikunj and Nibhrt Nikunj....These abodes are beyond the league of Vibhinna amsas.

You are terrific Ranjeet.

True... That is why Garuda went to see Bushundi when doubt tormented Him while seeing His Lord (Sri Rama) entangled in the snake coil in the Battlefield.

He thought, how can I (Garuda) the very source of Fear for snakes, see my own Lord be at the mercy of Snakes.

That doubt was dissipated by Bushundi. While reading that I was thrilled with Ecstasy...

If the Lord does not create all that.. how will we be able to serve Him, gain such lovely moments.. and hear such lovely moments between Greats like Bushundi and Garuda.

How would you express the joy that Hanumatha derived when carrying the Mountain just for the sake of His Beloved Rama.

Krishna only creates some really perfectly planned nice actions for his devotees for the betterment of this world else others are idle selfish fools or unorganised whimsical, thinking-oneself to be the doer [no concept of soul never does and everything depends on God] fools.

And yes Avtaar is not the Gateway to realisation.

After entering the Gate of Freedom, it is they that we finally see, according to the desired Service Type.

wanna know why gita says this ? it not because anthromorphic conception of god is the highest . its not that other perceptions of god are lower than this anthromorphic conception.

 

Because as you said earlier.. each religion holds a portion of Truth.

AND Truth is one without a second.

Each component of Truth is revealed in the Gita as the lesson goes more profound.

Till lastly shown in totality.

Remember, when the lesson started, Krishna was a mere Charioteer... then Friend.. then Guru.. and lastly Arjuna recognized Him as God.

The Brahma Jyoty, Universal light was shown in the course of Time to Arjuna by Krishna Himself.

gita as we all know is the most philosophical yet the most practical scripture. it is a limitation of us humans that no matter how hard we try we can never think beyond material terms

 

No, it is what where we get it wrong.

True, however it is that none can understand Gita completely.. but Krishna says, I'll give you the necessary understanding for you to come to Me.

The material elements is to be used inorder to understand Truth as a whole and not neglected.

The author of the Gita draws no line of demarcation between Spiritual and Material Quest.

Even though you hold properties still you are propertyless.. such a thinking is called real renunciation.

In fact, material resources will evolve round that Mahatma.. and he will create actions for the benefit of the world without really thinking he is the proprietor of them.

say for example when we try to percieve niraakar , what can we think ? an ocean , a ever expansive meadow , a desert or the sky perhaps ? maybe modern television have made it possible for us to visualise the milky way and space .but here it ends . nothing more than that !! but is this visualization a niraakar visuslization ? no !! its absolutely within the material realms. so a form automatically comes in.

 

that is why the muslims hang a picture of kaaba ,christians kiss the cross etc. all these points to the necessity of personal worship. now we all know all religions has its base in emotions.all spiritual activities are emotional activities. and this emotions are brought out most effectively if we can relate to another human. that is why percieving god as human is of utmost importance.

 

god's potencies manifest directly in an avatar . and avatars live among us to behave exactly like a material human. thats the closest an average man can get to god. thats why worship of avatars or human god or god men are so stressed in gita. its the easiest and quickest way to him.

 

avatars are gateways to realization.

 

 

 

thats when you view it from a spiritual perspective. historically it has always been a essential document of hinduism , not even vaishnavs. no denying that.

 

The perception will certainly depend on the qualification that we behold.

The more the Lord sees a person fit for His mission, the more he reveal Himself in the appropriate Form and the much degree of his secret Work plan is revealed.

Our willingness to serve and His Vision whether we are pure enough determines the closeness between Him and US.

Well, Sun Rays can be perceived without necessary perceiving the Sun.

But when the sun is perceived, the rays are automatically perceived.

With Proper Vision.. while really Viewing Krishna.. everything is seen.

The very few who were able to see him in that way was Yashomati Maya, Bheesma, Sanjaya, Arjuna, Vyasa, Drona.

i would like to know the source.im not aware of this.

From the lips of SukaDeva Goswami.

as truth is infinite each religion seems to have got a certain aspect of truth. each of these faiths have something unique in its teachings that is seperate from other faiths.thats what makes these faiths exist. every religion has something to contribute to the world.the day its contibution finishes the religion fades away instantly.

 

yes.

However, there should be at least one doctrine which englobes all the Sub Truth and that occurs when the Absolute Truth Himself reveal this to that fortunate.

THE GITAM Is the that TREATIES and KRISHNA IS THAT ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

That's why it is said in the Gita... only 1 perfect rare soul gets to hear that TRUTH in all its glory.

so all religions and beliefs are showing a part of the truth thats absolute and without a second. thats why i say dont limit god.

 

I'll certainly concur in that point.

But the Gita proclaims.. the Supreme Truth and can only be perceived in its completeness in His Manusrim Form [Human Form].

Hari does not come in HIS FULL Supreme FORM in the Kaliyuga.

That's why He is known as TriYuga.

surely gita is the highest philosophical treatise of hinduism. they are the supreme divine revelations and cannot be bounded by material definations( exactly the thing that iskcon wants to do by providing monopoly translations of gita)

Gita is not part of Hinduism.

Iskcon has a version that I like that of Bhakti but there are certain details that has been neglected by the devotees.

saying that personal god is a better understanding of the supreme than impersonal understanding . although it was bad according to my individual opinion.

 

I never said bad.. but incomplete.

i dont think so !!!! because if it would have depended exclusively on him to chose to reveal his 'superior' personal aspect to some and 'inferior' impersonal aspect to some , then he would be stained with the vice of partiality. that would make him imperfect ,and hence not god.

 

Not exactly.

If it would have been the other way round, then it would have derived His other speciality.. that of BEING PERFECTLY INDEPENDENT.

how can someone who is perfect and causelessly mercifull show 'superior' form to some and his inferior form to some ?!!! it rather depends on what we desire to see from him. a pure devotee would never care for his impersonal aspect but would rather go with his lovable personal side.

 

The idea of superiority its again you who is seeing that.

The impersonal aspect is part of his personal aspect.

Just like the sun and the rays of sun.

i guess i got what you are trying to suggest. maybe you are trying to say that seeing him( god realisation) is absolutely dependent on his mercy, thats perfectly true. untill he wills no one can achieve any amount of realizations. but question arises why does he bestow this mercy to some individuals , leaving the rest . this mercy is of prime importance but it blesses only those who sincirely search for him through unfaltering steps . our purushakaar(zeal) and enthusiam about sadhana helps to determine on whom this divine mercy would show up.

 

Because of our unwillingness to serve him.

But the wise knows, even though one is unwilling to serve, even him becomes part of his play.

No one is really independent of him.

Just like Duryodhana who was against His will but still he was part of His act.

a similar discussion is there in the beutifull book of bhakti--- madhurya kadambini by srila vishwanath chakrabary thakur ( a saint of gaudiya vaishnavism) . he speculated what could be the cause of bhakti? is it due to punyakarma ? is it due to good associations? is it due to mercy of vaishnavas? is ti due to grace of god? the question is indeed a real tough one.in the end he suggested that bhakti itself is its cause.

True...

Narada told it perfectly.

When the eyes of Hari sees someone then for him it is activated.

Mahatma Gandhi said it again perfectly in his My experiment with Truth.

Who becomes the seer of God and who is the object of circumstance is the eternal of mystery and RAM only knows.

Anyways, government do have a path to cater for all that.

One need to carry on with one's path if not guilty.

>> If it is for sense pleasure, then there are reactions.

 

killing someone by accident ,

no need to account for something ?

If there were no bad intention or whatsoever then no, but one should make proper arrangement to one's capacity for negative implication after the death of that person.

For e.g. legal or governmental support should be catered to the dependent of the deceased one. One need to make sure for that.

The amount of responsibility involved depends on the degree of voluntary involvement in that death... of course, if atonement from it is felt necessary. Those who are unconscious won't understand.

There are other ways of looking that also... suppose one is a soldier and one needs to kill for the sake of duty.. then one is not attached or responsible for any kind of reactions.

Do you think killing one life form is just the same as killing another life form ?

in ratio 1:1 ?

 

Because i heard people claim killing an insect is count as one,

and killing a chick is count as one,

and killing a pig is count as one, etc

 

 

 

and what about bacterias, perms and eggs ?

Killing?

It depends on the context.

It depends on the mode of operation.

Vikarmic or Akarmic.

If it is for sense pleasure, then there are reactions.

Even in the context, the reactions depends on the Gravity of the offense.

If that would not have been so.. then Cow Killing would not have been said to be the Greatest Among the Sins.

i couldnt get you .

 

in pralaya also the same karmic laws would be applicable because nothing is actually 'destroyed' in pralay. the cosmos enters from a manifested into an unmanifested state. all the jivas and matter continue in its unmanifested form only to come out in the next kalpa.

 

I was not mentioning anything physical.

Material nature is by Nature ever Mutable... I was referring to that which is CHANGELESS.

a very nice example was coined by vivekananda...............

 

when we say 'cup' we are referring to a particular object with a distinct name and shape thats crucial for its identity. thus by the mention of the word 'cup' there arises in our mind a thought or bhava. now what happens if i manage to destroy all the cups existing on this earth ? still its bhav and idea would remain in the conciousness of mankind.and out of this bhav someone in future would again make a cup. so inspite of the cup's totall destruction it is never nonexistent. same thing happens with pralay.all things get destroyed but the bhav lingers on in the universal conciuosness (god ) . although this is a crude example.

Agreed but not totally.

That has been explained in Sri Bhasya. Sri Ramanuja left no stone unturned in that regard.

Anyways; it was not that which I wanted to hint. It was about Training the Parrot to say Harinam from birth and be more prawn to utter His name at Death.

Well buddy, that might be one of the reason.

But Mukti is never attainable by that means... when someone is totally freed from any mechanical process of attaining Freedom, then only the Gate of Freedom is opened.

Those who are too much attached with their Mechanised Process, School of Thought and any other Regulative Principles, then they are still in their initial stage of Self Realisation; but it is a necessary initial phase.

thats better .

 

What was bad?

but there is also such a thing in shastras as 'ruchi' or taste.no two humans can think of god in a like manner.evryone has a different relation and conception of god. this conception is modelled on our own nature. it is said that if animals would have had religion then their god would probabaly have been another superanimal. as we are limited by senses we cannot help but think of god in human terms. and this thought varies immensely from person to person.

 

No.

It depends of HIM. The much He wants you to see HIM.

that is why you can find so many religions in world.there can never be a time when there will be only one religion. no matter how hard christianity , islam , emperor constantine etc tried ,they failed to create a single religion.their own religion got split up into numerous sects.this is the because of individual tastes and preferences which they failed to recognise.hinduism recoginses this and thats why we find so many innumerable methods of sadhana , millions of gods, hundreads of philosophies etc. it is hinduisms biggest strentgh and one of the key factors in its miraculous preservation thorugh history.

 

However, Truth is one without a second.

There is only 1 source of knowledge which never deride other philosophy and that is THE GITA.

Whatever you've said is just separated but interdependent elements of that Truth.

Even Hinduism has its limited perception even though more profound than the rest of the different philosophies.

I won't classify the Gita as under Hinduism, it is BEYOND all barriers.

so what path an individual would take depends largely on his ruchi and level of conciousness.

Yes... but it is only one of the infinite criteria.

The real one is HIS WILLINGNESS to reveal or not.

" if you dont teach a parrot harinaam at its young age it shall never learn to speak harinaam later when it grows old. and when the cat catches it can never utter hari's name.instead it would resort to screaching. "

 

but taking the Lord's name at pralaya time has much more than that much.

i only want to say that advaita exists as much as bhakti do. and none is inferior to the other.

I won't deny their existence.

I won't say inferior since I hold respect for them. But certainly there is only 1 which is complete.

I'll let each individual depending on their level of consciousness decide on that.

By calling God by Krishna is infact defining God in its Totality.

Any other way is infact perceiving God with a limited vision.

True but the Gita proclaims.. the best and most beautiful way is to know Him in His Manusya Form which is more complicated to know than His impersonal form.

He said that after showing his Viraat Roop and Vishnu Roop and ultimately coming to his Human Form.

That's one of the reason why, the Gita-Govinda was written by Jayadev.

Guys,

 

Give me some reasons. Why do we search for God?

 

I'm trying to understand ISKON for past few years but not convinced with the information I got.

 

I like to remove my ignorance by raising such questions. Help!!

To give a very reason for our existence.

Concerning Iskcon.. it is a school like any other school with its particular doctrine.

You need not understand Iskcon, they provide the Gita for example, so you can go through that celestial song.

Just like you started with your Nursery Classes and based on that you've continued with your primary, secondary and tertiary schooling.

I guess, all that contributed to your personality and personal achievement but without really having an attachment of some sort to them.

But of course, respect is there and also reconnaissance.. but after school there is job.

Even in the quest of spirituality it is as such... Iskcon can be the school.. Gita is your teacher.. those surrounding Iskcon might be your classmates and those who are good student becomes qualified.

Next step is whether one is fit enough to work for God... it can be as a businessman, politician, scavenger et al.

But in all that, the school holds its value.. but the real test is your actions after schooling is over.

Hmmm... RamaKrishna Mission or Arya Samaj or better no need to join any group.. you can practice the way you think is correct back home.

The earth only possess the necessary ingredients for understanding all that is needed to be understood.

Beautiful.