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12-09-2006, 02:35 AM
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#121 | |
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Senior Member
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Posts: 14,636
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That is funny. But even though Sagan and Hawkings were/are so incredibly intelligent in their fields they still don't know that they are distinct from their bodies. They know so much of so many things but nothing of the essence. Scholar Crossing the River....
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"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport
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12-09-2006, 03:08 PM
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#122 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 112
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Sagan and Hawkings are both very open-minded and amazing scientists. Only a few scientists can say with such humor that it is possible for the Universe to exist on the back of a tortoise. Sagan, specifically, has stated in a couple of his books that the Hindu religion is the only one which coincides the best with modern day science. |
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12-10-2006, 05:05 PM
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#123 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,636
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Perhaps but he is still an atheist. I believe the tortoise remark was a little sarcastic humor. Any truly open minded scientist must realize that there is a Supreme Intelligence behind this phenomenal world.
__________________
"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport
http://www.prabhupadabooks.com/ |
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12-11-2006, 09:43 AM
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#124 | |
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Posts: n/a
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Open minded
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A sweeping statement. In other words, you are of the opinion that anyone who disagrees with your ideas is close minded. To make such a statement, you must be of the opinion that you know better than all the scientists (people you never met). You are a good example of a very open minded person and you are certainly justified in your cause of getting scientists to open up their minds or to put it differently, to switch to your worldview. |
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12-11-2006, 11:13 AM
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#125 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,636
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It is a simple thing guest. There is either a Supreme Intelligence or there is not. Scientists are of different minds here. So one group will be right and the other group will be wrong. Simple. An example of an open minded scientist would be the agnostic. He honestly admits he does not know but will follow the facts where they lead. That is open minded. Now since there is no proof that a Supreme Intelligence is NOT everywhere at work from the atom to the movements of the planets on what basis does the atheistic scientist make the assertion the is no Intelligent Designer? Do you see the point? He must be speaking from his own prejudiced (thereby closed) mind. Now even atheistic scientists may appear to have open minds, and they do but only in the ways of discussing new theories and learnings on the mechanics of how things work. Once the Supreme Engineer and Mechanic is brought up they close up like a clam. The opponents of Intelligent Design being taught in schools is based on a the same prejudice against God. They say it themselves with statements like "The reason we oppose Intelligent Design is because it is one step of teaching about God in schools. The reason is because once you accept ID then you must ask whose intelligence and that points directly to there being a God." So they are obvious closed to the idea of God. Why do you posture your criticism with comments about this being my idea? I am not the originator of the understanding of ID. So it is not about agreeing or disagreeing with me in the slightest. I have come to appreciate ID by hearing from others. If one "listens" closely you can perceive this Supreme Intelligence all around you. When you appreciate the simple growth of a tree the wonder of the Intelligence that organizes such a thing should come into one's mind as well. But that mind must be open to it. This is one form of God consciousness/awareness and we should all be open to it.
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"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport
http://www.prabhupadabooks.com/ |
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12-11-2006, 12:14 PM
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#126 | |||
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USa
Posts: 587
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Quote:
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What phenomena would you like to know about? Be specific! Quote:
Is it possible that maybe someday ‘we the people’ will know God, personally? And if you and the scientists on this globe basically understand that God is within or “of’ the total, why would His compassion not allow us to know, let alone mention a return? You are short changing yourself, your rendition and the works of the forefathers. Are you a preacher (oppressor)? Because to suggest we/us will never know not only is against what out fathers told us, but also suggests God “the total” just never does anything right and can not be believed. Men make the mistakes in Understanding ….. the ‘total’ never does, and until you take the time to understand ‘all of it’ then please be fair to the persons who want to know…. Please step off the podium! If you haven’t noticed, I hate with a passion, the people who are not willing to grow but try and teach without knowing what the heck they are talking about. Sagan is dead and Hawkins is lost in funding pursuits for What phenomena do you wish to discuss? I like nuts and bolts or even waves. The issue within today’s sciences has a problem of not addressing the wave particle duality and Planck issued a constant from the block box phenomenon which has caused most of the problems within the sciences. But I think you want to know more on other phenomena…. Open a thread and let’s make fun of my ideas. .. I don’t mind being the butt of a joke …. Laughter releases endorphins which are good for us. (or is that an emotion you also want to oppress) Next you may say ‘be chaste’ and for you that may work as we the people do in fact wish for negatives to go extinct. Double edged message … |
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12-11-2006, 01:32 PM
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#127 | |
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ppen or close or open or...
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Obviously, for many scientists around the world, the honest, objective research of available facts led to the conclusion that there is no perceivable common intelligent design in this universe. Now because this conclusion is different from yours, how can you conclude scientists are not open minded or are dishonest? You also contradict yourself. If the agnost is the honest one, then you the theist are dishonest just like the atheist and your position is incorrect by your own admission. If you take the position that the agnost should either remain an agnost forever or is allowed to turn into a theist only but never an atheist, then do you consider yourself to be open minded or close minded? |
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12-11-2006, 01:59 PM
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#128 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,636
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Please pardon me for ignoring you Bishadi but I feel responding to your posts in like stepping into a quagmire.
__________________
"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport
http://www.prabhupadabooks.com/ |
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12-11-2006, 02:47 PM
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#129 | |||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,636
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First thing the method of investigation that they employed is severly flawed. They rely solely on the material senses and the extentions of imperfect senses like the telesope and microscope. Then they bring in the materially conditioned mind to form theories on what they observe. Spiritual understanding can never be arrived at by such a clumsy and flawed process. God is self revealing and not duty bound to reveal Himself to anyone with a big telescope and a big brain. Quote:
There is no contradiction guest. Having the proper conclusion shown to you and thereby knowing that God exists behnd all phenomena does not make one dishonest. The agnostic is honest and open because he admits he does not know. The theist is honest and open because he admits he does know and he remains open because the Supreme Intelligent being has no limit ,so to continue learning about God one must remain open to more and more revelation should the Lord bless in that way. The atheist is dishonest because he claims to know something he does not know. He boldly states there is no God but in reality all he can honestly say is that he has found no proof that there is God or that there is not God. So the atheist is really an agnostic who is to ****ing arrogant to admit he doesn't know. And by spouting off and posturing like he does know he misleads so many people with his bluff. This is actually a form of violence that is being perpetuate on humanity by these atheistic scientists and to speak openly they are criminals. Let me ask you this. What proof is there that God does not exist? Can you provide such proof? No. Can I provide proof that God exists? Yes. But I cannot make you see God in what I offer as proof. That vision comes from the Lord Himself as does the covering that prevents one from seeing Him. We can only offer logic to the extent we are able to convince another that the possiblity of God is worth exploring. And only the honest agnostic will be open minded enough to consider our proposal. Quote:
Well I don't take that position. It is not up to me to allow or disallow anything to anyone. The Supremely Intelligent Being Himself allows every soul the choice of being conscious of Him or forgetful of Him. He has obviously allowed souls to think as an atheist if they like. I myself was an atheist until 18. I never thought the topic of God or no God was important enough to even think about. So he allowed me to be an atheist. God awareness is not something that anyone can force on another. The initiative to open oneself up to God comes from within each soul. Do I consider myself to be open minded or close minded? Well I consider myself to be a bit of both. I am in the process of opening. In transistion from totally closed to fully open to God. I suspect the ratio is something like 1% open and still 99% closed. But that 1% is enough to convince me of God's existence and that opening up the other 99% is the only goal worth struggling for. The goal is to become 100% open and to remain eternally in that position. To be done with these shifting mental states of "I believe," I don't believe," Well maybe," and to become irrevocably fixed in the Absolute Truth.
__________________
"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport
http://www.prabhupadabooks.com/ |
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01-03-2007, 01:40 PM
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#130 | |||
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,975
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Krishna's power is obvious
who can intelligently lift up about 40 million tons of dust and transport it annually from the Sahara to the Amazon basin? Only Krishna can do this! Saharan dust has been proposed to be the main mineral source that fertilizes the Amazon basin, generating a dependence of the health and productivity of the rain forest on dust supply from the Sahara. "Here we show that about half of the annual dust supply to the Amazon basin is emitted from a single source: the Bodélé depression located northeast of Lake Chad, approximately 0.5% of the size of the Amazon or 0.2% of the Sahara. Placed in a narrow path between two mountain chains that direct and accelerate the surface winds over the depression, the Bodélé emits dust on 40% of the winter days, averaging more than 0.7 million tons of dust per day." http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1748-9..._1_014005.html "Satellite observations show continuous dust transport across 5000 km from the Saharan sources to the Caribbean Sea and North America in the Northern summer and to the Amazon basin during the Northern winter [1, 2]. Due to the annual cycle in winds over the Sahara, the winter Saharan dust sources are different from the summer sources [3]. In the summer, dust fluxes reaching the Tropical Atlantic shore originate mainly from the northwest and central-west parts of the Sahara. During winter, strong surface winds (the Harmattan winds) occur along the southern border of the Sahara, activating sources on the border of the Sahel, notably the Bodélé depression in Northern Chad. Analysis of satellite data [4] shows that out of the 240 ± 80 Tg (1 Tg = 1012 g = one million tons) of dust transported annually from Africa to the Atlantic ocean, 140 Tg are transported in the summer and 100 Tg in the winter. A total of 140 ± 40 Tg is deposited in the Atlantic ocean and 50 ± 15 Tg reach and fertilize the Amazon basin. This is four times an older estimate, explaining a paradox regarding the source of nutrients to the Amazon forest. Swap et al suggested [5] that while the source for minerals and nutrients in the Amazon is the dust from Africa, it was estimated that only 13 Tg of dust per year actually arrive in the Amazon. However, they pointed out that 50 Tg are needed to balance the Amazon nutrient budget. Here we show a remarkable arrangement in nature in which the mineral dust arriving at the Amazon [6, 7] basin from the Sahara actually originates from a single source of only ~ 0.5% of the size of the Amazon or ~ 0.2% of the Sahara: the Bodélé depression. Located northeast of Lake Chad (17°N, 18°E) near the northern border of the Sahel, it is known to be the most vigorous source for dust over the entire globe [3, 8]. Unlike most of the large sources in the Sahara that emit mainly during the summer months, the Bodélé depression emission pattern reaches its peak during the winter months. This depression is a unique dust source due to its location at a bottle neck of two large magmatic formations that serves as a `wind lens', guiding and focusing the surface winds to the Bodélé. The Tibesti mountains to the north and the Ennedi mountains southeast of the Bodélé form a large (more than 44 300 km2) caldera-like valley [9]. Downwind, on the southwest corner, the caldera forms a cone with a narrow pass that accelerates the surface winds towards the Bodélé, which is located in a depression along the pass (see figure 1 right). A unique low level wind jet (LLJ) forms over the Bodélé [10, 11], and the maximum dust production occurs in the winter when the LLJ is strongest. 
During the winter, the near surface winds are consistently northeasterly, making the Tibesti–Ennedi structure very efficient in focusing and guiding the winds over the Bodélé with an average of more than two days per week of winds stronger than 12 m s–1 [9, 11]. The surface winds over the Bodélé have a pronounced diurnal pattern, reaching the critical velocity for dust emission in the early morning and weakening toward the evening [12]. Therefore a clear `dust parcel' forms, travelling away from the Bodélé, shown as an area covered by heavy dust with clear borders. This parcel can be detected by satellites on the day following the emission (figure 3: see the parcel in the right satellite image) and sometimes can be followed up to 3–4 days downwind, southwestward towards the Atlantic. In the same season, the Sahel biomass burning reaches its peak [13]. Therefore, the dust from the Bodélé may mix with the smoke, making retrievals of the dust properties over the Sahel much more difficult. Actual transport of a dust parcel from the Bodélé to the Atlantic ocean can be seen on an ozone monitoring instrument (OMI) [14] movie (available at ). The rate of emission from the Bodélé depression has not been measured yet from space or otherwise, due to its remote, isolated location and difficulties in analysis of traditional satellite data of dust over the bright desert. Here we take advantage of recent advancement in satellite instrumentation to produce the first quantitative estimate of the amount of dust emitted from the Bodélé and transported across the Atlantic ocean to the Amazon. The analysis of emission combines data from two satellite instruments: MODIS (moderate-resolution imaging spectroradiometer), which provides daily observations of dust emitting days and dust parcel area but no quantitative estimates of dust concentration over the bright desert; and MISR (multi-angle imaging spectroradiometer), which provides estimates of the average dust optical depth of the parcel that in turn is used to derive the dust column mass but has only a nine-day revisit frequency. 2. Methods and results The analysis over land is aimed at estimating the contribution of the Bodélé to the total dust flux reaching the African coast, followed by detailed analysis of dust fluxes reaching the Amazon coast, over the Atlantic ocean. Data from the MODIS blue channel (0.47 µm), with 1 km resolution, are used for detecting the area of the dust parcel emitted from the Bodélé. By using information from two satellites carrying the instrument, observing the same spot on ground 3 h apart (Terra ~ 10:30 AM, Aqua 1:30 PM), we observed the patterns of the dust activity. The dust (wind) speed and direction are calculated from the difference in the location of the dust front in the two satellites [9]. Then the emission starting time is estimated from the wind speed, the location of the source and the location of the dust front, and the duration of the emission is extracted from the wind velocity and the length of the dust parcel along the wind direction. Similarly, these properties can be calculated when using the location of the dust parcel from satellite images of the day after the emission. The optical parameters of the dust plume are derived from MISR data [15]. Each MISR pixel is measured from nine different angles, enabling the use of the directional variability of the dust in order to retrieve optical parameters over bright surfaces. The dust flux was calculated by converting the MISR optical thickness into dust mass [4] and integrating it over the entire parcel. Dust emission starts with saltation and blasting of the surface crust by larger particles that release and lift the finer dust particles [16]. The large particles sink relatively quickly and are not transported to large distances from the source. The aerosol optical depth near the Bodélé may contain a contribution from the large particles. Therefore, to estimate the amount of fine dust that can be transported over large distances we focus on the day following the emission, where the average dust parcel is more than 1200 km away from the source. The mass column concentration for Saharan dust M is estimated from the dust optical depth τd using the following ratio:  as estimated in several field experiments combined with Aeronet measurements and models [17–21]. The mass flux of a particular event over land is the product of the average mass column concentration (calculated from the average dust optical thickness) and the parcel area. The analysis of the MODIS and MISR satellite data over the desert was complemented with calculations of the dust flux over the Atlantic ocean. To do so, we separated the satellite measurements of aerosol optical depth into dust, marine aerosol and smoke. The amount of marine aerosol is estimated using the NCEP surface winds [22]. Dust and smoke are separated by estimating the contribution of the fine particles to the optical depth derived from MODIS. The flux of dust transported from Africa to Brazil is then calculated by applying the westward NCEP winds to the dust concentration, and the longitudinal length between 20°S and 10°N of the segment through which the flux is being computed near the African and the Brazilian coasts (the method and results are described in detail in [4]). All dust outbreaks over the Saharan Atlantic zone from October 2003 to October 2004 were analysed in this study. Figure 2 (blue line) shows the accumulated distribution of days that the Bodélé emitted dust form October 2003 to October 2004 defined from MODIS data. Dust emission was highest during the winter time and occurred on 50% of the days during late winter and spring (February–April). The average duration of each event is about four days. The emission decreased sharply in May–June and occurred on less than 20% of the days during July–September. 
The average measured wind near the source derived from the Aqua–Terra difference for 40 cases is 13.2 ± 1 m s–1 with azimuth direction of 250° ± 6°, in line with previous measurements [7]. Moreover, during the winter–spring period the wind of the one-day-old dust parcel has a similar average wind speed of 13.0 ± 1.5 m s–1 and direction of 247° ± 9°. The average daily duration of emission is 8 ± 2 h, starting at 5 am ± 2 h. The average length of the dust package is L = 370 ± 100 km, and the average width is W = 700 ± 300 km. Based on 21 cases of MISR analysis, the one-day-old dust parcel has an average optical depth of 1.1 ± 0.4 (with standard error of 0.1), and neutral spectral reflection of sunlight (Angstrom exponent of 0.2), indicating that the aerosol is pure dust [23]. The error estimate includes the error due to averaging for the entire parcel and the error of the dust retrieval [24]. The total mass of dust emitted from the Bodélé and observed by MODIS on the next day parcel is calculated as the product of the average MISR aerosol optical depth and the average parcel area covered by the dust, yielding Mtot = 2.7 τduA, where A is the averaged parcel area, Mtot = 0.77 ± 0.1 Tg/day. The accumulation of emitted dust mass from October 2003 to October 2004 is plotted in red in figure 2. The analysis of the satellite data shows that during the winter–spring time of 2003–2004 more than 58 ± 8 Tg of dust were emitted from the Bodélé, as measured 1300 km downwind from the source. At this distance the dust parcel is mostly free of the large particles that were removed earlier by gravitational settling. The estimates of dust flux emitted from the Bodélé depression are compared here to the dust fluxes across the Atlantic ocean to the Amazon [4]. In figure 3, we show the results of calculation for average of two years (2003–2004) of emissions and two cross section of the Atlantic ocean, one next to the African coast (brown frame) and one next to the South American coast (yellow frame). Out of 80 ± 8 Tg of dust transported to the ocean from Africa (between 20°S and 10°N), 40 ± 13 Tg arrive at South America. If we assume that the deposition rates over West Africa are similar to those over the Atlantic ocean we find that out of the 58 ± 8 Tg of dust emitted from the Bodélé depression, about 45 ± 6 Tg are loaded on the westward trade winds to be transported across the ocean. This amounts to 56% of the total annual burden, all coming from a single source. 3. Discussion Using satellite data and reanalysis wind fields we have identified a remarkable connection between the Amazon forest and a single dust source in the Sahara: the Bodélé depression and its wind regime. A unique combination of global wind pattern and topography forms a vigorous dust source that emits an average of more than 0.7 Tg of dust per emission day and is active mostly during the winter–spring, which is different from most other Saharan dust sources. We estimate that between November and March, the Bodélé depression sends more than half of the dust that is deposited annually in the Amazon forest. Our direct measurements are consistent with a recent modelling study showing that the Bodélé is responsible for > 40% of dust optical depth over the Amazon in the winter season [25]. The soil of the Amazon tropical rainforest is shallow, poor in nutrients and almost without soluble minerals. Heavy rains have washed away the nutrients in the soil obtained from weathered rocks. The rainforest has a short nutrient cycle, and due to the heavy washout, a stable supply of minerals is required to keep the delicate nutrient balance [26]. Kimmins [27] showed that any change in the nutrient supply will convert tropical forests to `wet deserts'. Despite the insight we gained into the role of the Bodélé in fertilization of the Amazon forest, some key questions remain open. What is the relationship of the mineralogical content of the dust to the local surface mineralogy? What is the size of the reservoir of mineral dust there? And since when has the Bodélé emitted such a huge amount of dust, and for how long will it continue to do so? Such questions, among others, were the motivation for the BoDEx Field Experiment [28]. An expedition to the Bodélé during the spring of 2005 aimed at collecting in situ measurements of the emitted dust, and characterizing the local meteorology and the surface properties [29]. Answers to these questions are needed to understand the nature of the emissions in the past, and the future capability of the Bodélé to fertilize the Amazon." Acknowledgments We thank Gala Wind for the help with the MISR analysis. This work was supported by NASA. IK is incumbent of the Benjamin H Swig and Jack D Weiler career development chair. This research was partly funded by the Weizmann–Argentina Cooperation program. References
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