Is Anyone There?

[Guest guest]

At 06:17 PM 7/8/99 -0300, you wrote:

>andrew macnab <a.macnab

>

>

>

>Xanma wrote:

>

>> Xanma

>>

>> Greg:

>>

>> << Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual?

>> >>

>> ---

>> Yes and No.

>> Is there such a thing as illusion?

>>

>> xan

>

>Is there anything but perception?

 

yes, there is non-perception.

 

Dan

>

>andrew

>

>

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[Guest guest]

At 01:44 PM 7/8/99 -0500, you wrote:

>"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01

>If there aint no such thing as an individual, then man, who is talking and

>who is listening, and who cares?

>

>(Careful....i set a big snare on this one!)

 

Why careful? There is nobody here to be caught in a snare.

 

The answer to your question is that the body is talking, the senses and

mind are listening, and the mind cares, if it is foolish.

 

Hari OM,

 

Tim

 

-----

Visit The Core of the WWW at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html

Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics.

[Guest guest]

Dan Berkow, PhD wrote:

> >> Greg:

> >>

> >> << Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual?

> >> >>

> >> ---

> >> Yes and No.

> >> Is there such a thing as illusion?

> >>

> >> xan

> >

> >Is there anything but perception?

> andrew

> yes, there is non-perception.

> Dan

 

really?

 

andrew

[Guest guest]

At 07:31 PM 7/8/99 -0300, you wrote:

>andrew macnab <a.macnab

>

>

>

>Dan Berkow, PhD wrote:

>

>> >> Greg:

>> >>

>> >> << Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual?

>> >> >>

>> >> ---

>> >> Yes and No.

>> >> Is there such a thing as illusion?

>> >>

>> >> xan

>> >

>> >Is there anything but perception?

>

>> andrew

>

>> yes, there is non-perception.

>

>> Dan

>

>really?

>

>andrew

 

not really.

 

Dan

>

>

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[Guest guest]

lol,

 

Antoine

 

Dan Berkow, PhD wrote:

>

> "Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd

>

> "Absolutely NOT!!!!!," he said in his sleep.

>

> >Is there such a thing as illusion?

> >

> >xan

[Guest guest]

> <<

> Is there such a thing as illusion? >>

>

> There certainly is, Just ask any magician.

>

> Nav

 

Is there a magician?

 

Antoine

[Guest guest]

> <<

> Is there a magician?

>

> Antoine

> >>

>

> Sure, because the magician is the ONE who makes us feel fooled! In fact, in

> the end, the magician may be the enlightened one??

>

> Nav

 

Which brings us back to the initial question.

>From Greg the magician

 

<< I think Harsha is on vacation. Is anyone posting?

 

How about let's consider this:

 

Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual?

 

--Greg

>>

[Guest guest]

"Debora A. Orf" wrote:

> If there aint no such thing as an individual, then man, who is talking and

> who is listening, and who cares?

> (Careful....i set a big snare on this one!)

 

Goof balls?

 

David

(hanging upside down from a tree)

[Guest guest]

> <<

> Which brings us back to the initial question.

>

> From Greg the magician

>

> >>

> Now we know the answer!

 

I bow to you Nav, (making wind with my head like would say Harsha)

 

Antoine

[Guest guest]

> "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01

[...]

> May i ask, what happens after enlightenment?

 

Kundalini rising and taking abode in crown center, nirvana with substratum

remaining, nirvikalpa samadhi, sahaja samadhi (sequence can be different

for "professional" meditators). Eventually concluded by nirvana without

substratum remaining.

 

There's a good sense in the

> zen phrase "Before, Chop wood, carry water, During, Water chops wood,

> After, Chop wood, carry water" (ok its the Janpa version!)

>

> maitri,

>

> --janpa

 

Before, "I" am chopping wood, "I" am driving the car, "I" am suffering

from

pains. After, wood is chopped, the car is driven BUT pain is just felt. A

difference that cannot be conveyed.

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

At 03:25 AM 7/9/99 +0100, you wrote:

>"jb" <kvy9

>

>> Tim Harris <harris

>>[...]. Can one

>> that is awake

>> shake the attachment to sleep?

>>

>> Gentle Peace.

>>

>> Tim Harris

>

>It is very rare and called "the last transformation". It means one is awake,

>literally independent of conditions imposed by the mind-body like breathing.

 

I would have to see some independent verification before I would even begin

to believe this. I would bet you could not come up with a single

scientifically documented case, only a case or two "documented" via hearsay

after hearsay after hearsay...

 

Hari OM,

 

Tim

 

-----

Visit The Core of the WWW at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html

Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics.

[Guest guest]

> Tim Gerchmez <fewtch

>

> At 03:25 AM 7/9/99 +0100, you wrote:

> >"jb" <kvy9

> >

> >> Tim Harris <harris

> >>[...]. Can one

> >> that is awake

> >> shake the attachment to sleep?

> >>

> >> Gentle Peace.

> >>

> >> Tim Harris

> >

> >It is very rare and called "the last transformation". It means

> one is awake,

> >literally independent of conditions imposed by the mind-body

> like breathing.

>

> I would have to see some independent verification before I would

> even begin

> to believe this.

 

For a starter, begin with the practice of nirvikalpa samadhi and go into

that samadhi in a scientifically controlled environment. Then, with the aid

of that outcome and the scriptures, something can be concluded about sahaja

samadhi. What is more likely though, is that interest in "scientifically

controlled environments" will be lost before that samadhi can be entered

into.

 

I would bet you could not come up with a single

> scientifically documented case, only a case or two "documented"

> via hearsay

> after hearsay after hearsay...

>

> Hari OM,

>

> Tim

 

If one knows what to look for, there are quite a number of hints and Ramana

gave one too. But don't believe anything that can easily be verified by

one's experience, no matter if that takes forty or more years...

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, jb wrote:

>

> Before, "I" am chopping wood, "I" am driving the car, "I" am

suffering from

> pains. After, wood is chopped, the car is driven BUT pain is just felt. A

> difference that cannot be conveyed.

>

 

actually that is closer. 0 degrees state is usually "I" do this "i" do

that instead of just doing this or that.

 

--janpa tsomo

[Guest guest]

We have always had myths about superhuman persons with incredible abilities.

To me, this seems a distraction from "what is," the simple power of being

available any place, any moment. It's not, for me, a matter of superhuman

abilities...

Peace, Dan

 

At 10:22 PM 7/8/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Tim Gerchmez <fewtch

>

>At 03:25 AM 7/9/99 +0100, you wrote:

>>"jb" <kvy9

>>

>>> Tim Harris <harris

>>>[...]. Can one

>>> that is awake

>>> shake the attachment to sleep?

>>>

>>> Gentle Peace.

>>>

>>> Tim Harris

>>

>>It is very rare and called "the last transformation". It means one is awake,

>>literally independent of conditions imposed by the mind-body like breathing.

>

>I would have to see some independent verification before I would even begin

>to believe this. I would bet you could not come up with a single

>scientifically documented case, only a case or two "documented" via hearsay

>after hearsay after hearsay...

>

>Hari OM,

>

>Tim

>

>-----

>Visit The Core of the WWW at:

>http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html

>Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics.

>

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[Guest guest]

On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, David Bozzi wrote:

>

> Goof balls?

>

 

LOL. Enjoy the sunset seranade by the fuzzy turtles for me ok?

[Guest guest]

"Dan Berkow, PhD" wrote:

> We have always had myths about superhuman persons with incredible abilities.

> To me, this seems a distraction from "what is," the simple power of being

> available any place, any moment.

 

I agree. Show me a hero and I'll show you a myth.

It seems we imagine heroes based on some belief of weakness

in ourself, ignorant that we are healers, we are light workers,

we are power itself.

 

Why do we allow ourself to be pulled in the rush of pettiness,

ignoring this immense miracle of being?

[Guest guest]

Dan Berkow, PhD wrote:

> We have always had myths about superhuman persons with incredible abilities.

> To me, this seems a distraction from "what is," the simple power of being

> available any place, any moment. It's not, for me, a matter of superhuman

> abilities...

 

Marcia:

 

There are all sorts of "abilities" that make themselves known

but they just become another pothole or trap if one focusses

on them and becomes enamored of them and misuses them.

After all Hitler was no ordinary man. The difference between

a superman and an ordinary idiot cubed is not in the abilities

themselves but the use to which they are put. Most likely

a person with superhuman abilities would not display them

but would use them to subtly bring about transformations

in line with a global aim. I think it is a matter of taking abilities

"personally" or not and not the abilities themselves. To be

able to use a ability for the good of mankind seems to me

to be of more benefit to a greater number than the simple

power of being. I agree with the distraction part. But goes

backwards moving away from distraction and not hold

still through the distraction until ability to direct the ability

comes "through" the mechanism of the personal self.

 

btw good morning Dan. :-)

 

Marcia

[Guest guest]

David wrote:

>

>I agree. Show me a hero and I'll show you a myth.

>It seems we imagine heroes based on some belief of weakness

>in ourself, ignorant that we are healers, we are light workers,

>we are power itself.

>

>Why do we allow ourself to be pulled in the rush of pettiness,

>ignoring this immense miracle of being?

>

>

 

Hi David,

 

I was just sharing with a friend how easy

that is for me. Sometimes I find myself

being bombarded with information about God,

or Truth, or Awakening.

 

Talk, talk talk about what we know to be

so. It makes my head hurt.... because when

I listen to so much I feel my heart center

closing down, as my mind takes over the

field - trying to take it all in.

 

But then I hear from some dear people

who openly expressed the doubt, the yearning,

the fears that seem to swallow them whole.

 

And I realize just how close there were

to seeing and tasting the Miracle.

 

One lady in asking, "Is there a God?" spoke

of the reaction she had to a T-shirt which

showed Mary with upstretched arms saying,

"The tomb is empty", and then shared

how that touched a space deep inside her.

 

It helps me to realize that for me -- it is

not the debates, nor the speeches, nor the

teachings from books that I am pointed to

to the Infinite.

 

It is from such a cry of heart-felt longing

that I am reminded that it is in allowing my self

to be entombed in *emptiness* that the Miracle

happens.

 

It is in the emptying, the 'not' knowing, the

thirsting, that I discover God.

 

 

Melody

[Guest guest]

At 12:19 PM 7/9/99 -0400, you wrote:

>David Bozzi <david.bozzi

>

>> We have always had myths about superhuman persons with incredible

abilities.

>> To me, this seems a distraction from "what is," the simple power of being

>> available any place, any moment.

>

>I agree. Show me a hero and I'll show you a myth.

>It seems we imagine heroes based on some belief of weakness

>in ourself, ignorant that we are healers, we are light workers,

>we are power itself.

>

>Why do we allow ourself to be pulled in the rush of pettiness,

>ignoring this immense miracle of being?

>

I feel we do this because we're pretty vulnerable creatures.

We've been hurt, we want to protect ourselves.

We invent heroes to "rescue" us from our situation.

Such heroes can be anything from an external God, human saviours considered

perfectly realized or superhuman, but can include far more mundane things

like a perfect lover, a great job, or even more reduced, a new car, or a

meal at a great restaurant.

 

If one looks at things this way, the only useful thing to do

is to return to the vulnerability and be with it as it is.

It doesn't need to be other than it is, just nonfragmenting from it.

 

For me, this is where the "real" reveals itself.

 

By the way, I now perceive that your remarks about Jesus may have

been an attempt to demythologize the human figure. If this was

the case, then it makes sense to me. It is the spirit of Jesus

that can't be put in a box. :-)

 

Pax, Dan

 

 

 

>

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[Guest guest]

Melody wrote:

> It is from such a cry of heart-felt longing

> that I am reminded that it is in allowing my self

> to be entombed in *emptiness* that the Miracle

> happens.

 

Yes. I am well aware of the hunger. We all share it.

It's like a trail of bread crumbs that leads...

 

But the trail of crumbs does not satisfy the hunger.

> It is in the emptying, the 'not' knowing, the

> thirsting, that I discover God.

 

So true...

 

Nice to hear from you,

David

[Guest guest]

But goes

>backwards moving away from distraction and not hold

>still through the distraction until ability to direct the ability

>comes "through" the mechanism of the personal self.

>

>btw good morning Dan. :-)

>

morning Marcia.

 

I think your ability to compose the above sentence is

in itself extraordinary. I think I follow most of what it

says, so I think that makes me at least a little above

average.

 

dan

>

>

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