Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 Greg: << Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? >> --- Yes and No. Is there such a thing as illusion? xan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 << If there aint no such thing as an individual, then man, who is talking and who is listening, and who cares? >> --- Exactly. As I see it, it's not that the individual doesn't exist, we just aren't what we think we are as individuals. xan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 << May i ask, what happens after enlightenment? >> --- Wait and see. Anything else would be speculation and hearsay. xan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 --- << Dan: "Absolutely NOT!!!!!," he said in his sleep. --- >Is there such a thing as illusion? > >xan > >> --- If there is no darkness, what is en-light-ened? If there is no illusion, what is Truth? If there is no sleeping, how can we be awakening? xan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 << : Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? > >> > --- > Yes and No. > Is there such a thing as illusion? > > xan Is there anything but perception? andrew >> --- What is there, anyway? paraphrase of Ramana Maharshi. xan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 In a message dated 7/8/99 3:13:25 PM Central Daylight Time, Xanma writes: << Is there such a thing as illusion? >> There certainly is, Just ask any magician. Nav Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 I think Harsha is on vacation. Is anyone posting? How about let's consider this: Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? --Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, David Bozzi wrote: > There would first have to be such thing as an individual. > > Next question... > If there aint no such thing as an individual, then man, who is talking and who is listening, and who cares? (Careful....i set a big snare on this one!) | Debora A. Orf | | dorf01 | "Karma means you dont get away with anything!" | | --Ruth Dennison Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 At 02:27 PM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote: > Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? No, absolutely not. There cannot be an enlightened individual, as individuality disappears upon enlightenment, to be replaced by the Universal or Absolute. An "enlightened person" is essentially God walking around in a body/mind complex. Hari OM, Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 Greg Goode wrote: > Is anyone posting? Trick question. > How about let's consider this: > > Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? No. There would first have to be such thing as an individual. Next question... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > No, absolutely not. There cannot be an enlightened individual, as > individuality disappears upon enlightenment, to be replaced by the > Universal or Absolute. An "enlightened person" is essentially God walking > around in a body/mind complex. > actually i think that person is just walking around. its us goofballs who would say that that person is God walking around. May i ask, what happens after enlightenment? There's a good sense in the zen phrase "Before, Chop wood, carry water, During, Water chops wood, After, Chop wood, carry water" (ok its the Janpa version!) maitri, --janpa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 In a message dated 7/8/99 6:01:18 PM Central Daylight Time, carrea writes: << Is there a magician? Antoine >> Sure, because the magician is the ONE who makes us feel fooled! In fact, in the end, the magician may be the enlightened one?? Nav Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 << Is there a magician? Antoine >> --- I have found the magician and he is us. xan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 Glen - I'm here and liked your question - how would you answer? Mine: If one thinks it is so, thinking makes it so. Beyond thought -- enlightenment is, individuality is, yet there is no enlightened individual... those words were typed at this moment by fingers working at a keyboard, but should not be taken as an expression of any individual's point of view. Peace, Dan At 02:27 PM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >Greg Goode <goode > >I think Harsha is on vacation. Is anyone posting? > >How about let's consider this: > > Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? > >--Greg > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Campaign 2000 is here! > >Discuss your thoughts; get informed at ONElist. See our homepage. > >------ > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 In a message dated 7/8/99 6:23:43 PM Central Daylight Time, carrea writes: << Which brings us back to the initial question. From Greg the magician >> Now we know the answer! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 > On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > > > No, absolutely not. There cannot be an enlightened individual, as > > individuality disappears upon enlightenment, to be replaced by the > > Universal or Absolute. An "enlightened person" is essentially God walking > > around in a body/mind complex. But is it not possible then that 'all individuals' are enlightened? For, if we say 'all' then where are the individuals? The question, to me, is not if 'one' is enlightened or 'one' is not. It is more whether one 'knows' it or not. Is not one concept of enlightenment the 'difference' between being 'awake' or 'asleep', the two extremes (duality)? When one awakens is he still not the one that 'was' asleep? And, are not the dreams (experiences) that one had while asleep still not forged in the memory? I find that I can learn as much about 'this' and 'that' from one who 'sleeps' as from one who is 'awake'. Can one that is awake shake the attachment to sleep? Gentle Peace. Tim Harris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 At 02:51 PM 7/8/99 -0400, David Bozzi wrote: >Trick question. ! >> Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? > >No. >There would first have to be such thing as an individual. I like that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 "Absolutely NOT!!!!!," he said in his sleep. >Is there such a thing as illusion? > >xan > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits. > >------ > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 At 03:16 PM 7/8/99 -0400, Dan Berkow, PhD wrote: >"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > >Glen - I'm here and liked your question - how would you answer? I wrote lots of details in response to Tim's answer. In short I'd say that there is no individual, no enlightenment, no enlightened or unenlightened individual. Just light. And even that is too much... >Mine: >If one thinks it is so, thinking makes it so. Nice! Also, would you say that not thinking it is so removes the basis of the so? >Beyond thought -- enlightenment is, >individuality is, yet there is no >enlightened individual... In what sense *is* enlightenment, *is* individuality? The same as each other, or different? Do they relate or pertain to each other? If they are beyond thought, what is it that says that they are both there, that they are the same, or different? >those words were typed at this moment by >fingers working at a keyboard, but should not >be taken as an expression of any individual's >point of view. No expression taken! Regards, --Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 Xanma wrote: > Xanma > > Greg: > > << Q: Is there any such thing as an enlightened individual? > >> > --- > Yes and No. > Is there such a thing as illusion? > > xan Is there anything but perception? andrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 Xanma wrote: > Is there such a thing as illusion? > > xan > Only when I 'think' I know what you mean. Gentle Peace. Tim Harris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 >--- >If there is no darkness, what is en-light-ened? a way to create darkness. >If there is no illusion, what is Truth? a way to create illusion. >If there is no sleeping, how can we be awakening? awakening is a way to create sleeping. Dan > >xan > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >ONElist members are using Shared Files in great ways! > >Are you? If not, see our homepage for details. > >------ > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 Glen, your questions are too good for this poor one -- nonetheless, I'll take a stab at it... >>Mine: >>If one thinks it is so, thinking makes it so. > >Nice! Also, would you say that not thinking it is so removes the basis of >the so? not thinking it is so negates it, whereas not-thinking never manifests the problem in the first place. >>Beyond thought -- enlightenment is, >>individuality is, yet there is no >>enlightened individual... > >In what sense *is* enlightenment, *is* individuality? The same as each >other, or different? enlightenment *is* in the sense that That which is no-quality neither exists nor doesn't exist -- to say enlightenment *is* is to affirm what is beyond affirmation and to qualify what has no quality individuality *is* as enlightenment expresses - each moment unique Do they relate or pertain to each other? enlightenment emanates, individuality *is* If they are >beyond thought, what is it that says that they are both there, that they >are the same, or different? beyond thought, these distinctions are useless - like toilet paper to be discarded after their conversational purpose is exhausted >>those words were typed at this moment by >>fingers working at a keyboard, but should not >>be taken as an expression of any individual's >>point of view. > >No expression taken! (sigh of relief) > >Regards, > >--Greg and to you, Dan > > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >ONElist: your connection to online communities. > >------ > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 Seems appropriate, this little sutra: The Maha Prajna Paramita Hrdaya Sutra > > Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva > When practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita > perceives that all five skandhas are empty > and is saved from all suffering and distress. > > Shariputra, > form does not differ from emptiness, > emptiness does not differ from form. > That which is form is emptiness, > that which is emptiness form. > > The same is true of feelings, > perceptions, impulses, consciousness. > > Shariputra, > all dharmas are marked with emptiness; > they do not appear or disappear, > are not tainted or pure, > do not increase or decrease. > > Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings, > perceptions, impulses, consciousness. > > No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, > no mind; no color, no sound, no smell, > no taste, no touch, no object of mind; > no realm of eyes > and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness. > > No ignorance and also no extinction of it, > and so forth until no old age and death > and also no extinction of them. > > No suffering, no origination, > no stopping, no path, no cognition, > also no attainment with nothing to attain. > > The Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita > and the mind is no hindrance; > without any hindrance no fears exist. > Far apart from every perverted view > one dwells in Nirvana. > > In the three worlds > all Buddhas depend on Prajna Paramita > and attain Annutara Samyak Sambodhi. > > Therefore, know that Prajna Paramita > is the great transcendent mantra > is the great bright mantra, > is the utmost mantra, > is the supreme mantra, > which is able to relieve all suffering > and is true, not false. > > So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra, > proclaim the mantra which says: > > gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha > gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha > gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha. > aint it cool?? --janpa tsomo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 1999 At 04:38 PM 7/8/99 -0500, Debora A. Orf wrote: >"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > > >Seems appropriate, this little sutra: >The Maha Prajna Paramita Hrdaya Sutra Thank you!!!! --Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
