Apep Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 What do non-meat eating Hindus think of people who eat meat including beef? Is it bad for a hindu to eat meat? I am not a vegetarian. I have tried being a vegetarian with no avail. I have come to terms with myself on this in a positive manner. I even give thanks to the divine for the meat that I do eat. I do hope this post does not offend anyone , but I must ask in order to secure my own knowledge on the subject. ( Also I am new to hinduism all togehter. I am currently trying to convert to Shaivism.) comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hinduism is based on the fundamental teaching of ahimsa, or nonviolence. Those who eat meat cause pain and suffering to animals for the satisfaction of their tongue (i.e. for a selfish reason). According to the laws of karma, the pain they inflict will eventually be returned to them in the next life, when they are forced to take birth as animals and undergo the same sufferings. Those who cannot give up eating meat, should at least try to reduce the meat they eat with the idea of eventually giving up eating meat altogether. Also, in such a situation where one cannot immediately give up the practive, one should try to avoid harming more consciously developed animals such as cows, and instead eat meat from fish or chickens. Those who are devotees of Shiva should be especially conscious of this, as vegetarianism is called "Shaivam" in Tamil, which means both auspicious and related to Shiva. God shows compassion to us according to how much compassion we have for other living entities. Lord Shiva is known by the name Pashupatinath, which means "Lord and protector of the cows". The cow is considered the mother of the devas and should never be disrepected in thought, word or deed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalkin714 Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Usualy the Left-handed path of Tantra is the only sect that eats meat. And many more liberal Hindus also will eat it though abstaining on Holy days. Also there are many starving "outcastes" that are known to eat dead cows and dogs. The Manu Smitri specificly says that it is no sin, but the rewards for abstaining are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 The Manu Smitri specificly says that it is no sin, but the rewards for abstaining are great. Please present your evidence that it isn't sinful to kill animals and eat meat. The Gita proclaims any action not done for the purpose of sacrifice as sinful, and specifically states food that is not offered to God is eating sin: 3.13 yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin." - Bhagavad-gita 3.13 yajnarthat karmano ’nyatra loko ’yam karma-bandhanah tad-artham karma kaunteya mukta-sangah samacara "All action must be performed as a sacrifice for Vishnu, otherwise any action will cause bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform all actions for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage." - Bhagavad-gita 3.9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apep Posted March 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hinduism is based on the fundamental teaching of ahimsa, or nonviolence. Those who eat meat cause pain and suffering to animals for the satisfaction of their tongue (i.e. for a selfish reason). According to the laws of karma, the pain they inflict will eventually be returned to them in the next life, when they are forced to take birth as animals and undergo the same sufferings. Those who cannot give up eating meat, should at least try to reduce the meat they eat with the idea of eventually giving up eating meat altogether. Also, in such a situation where one cannot immediately give up the practive, one should try to avoid harming more consciously developed animals such as cows, and instead eat meat from fish or chickens. Those who are devotees of Shiva should be especially conscious of this, as vegetarianism is called "Shaivam" in Tamil, which means both auspicious and related to Shiva. God shows compassion to us according to how much compassion we have for other living entities. Lord Shiva is known by the name Pashupatinath, which means "Lord and protector of the cows". The cow is considered the mother of the devas and should never be disrepected in thought, word or deed. I see. I was always told that in the beginning of hinduism there was no vegetarianism and it only developed later. I understand the part of course of not inflicting pain or any deed of that nature on the cow. If I try to obstain from eating meat, is that by itself good? I am still trying to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 I was always told that in the beginning of hinduism there was no vegetarianism and it only developed later. Some people spread this idea mostly to justify their eating meat. If one studies the scriptures one will find nonviolence and vegetarianism to be fundamental practices going back to the beginnings of Hinduism. If I try to obstain from eating meat, is that by itself good? Yes, trying is certainly beneficial. When a child learns to walk he first will fall many times, but by practice eventually he will learn to walk without falling. The same is the case for all of us trying to follow the path of dharma. In the beginning it will be difficult but if we are sincere and pick ourselve up we will eventually succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apep Posted March 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Some people spread this idea mostly to justify their eating meat. If one studies the scriptures one will find nonviolence and vegetarianism to be fundamental practices going back to the beginnings of Hinduism. Yes, trying is certainly beneficial. When a child learns to walk he first will fall many times, but by practice eventually he will learn to walk without falling. The same is the case for all of us trying to follow the path of dharma. In the beginning it will be difficult but if we are sincere and pick ourselve up we will eventually succeed. Thank You for taking the time to reply to me. I will admit I still eat meat. I am trying to eat less and less everyday. In Western Civilization literally meat is the most popular food of choice. Unlike maybe other parts of the world. It is difficult but with trying I should be able to. When one stops eating meat and gets close to the dharma is that person forgiven by the divine? Is his deeds turned into oblivion? Are good people by nature considered evil or bad in eating meat? What happens to the good spiritual people who eats meat and then dies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sefroth77 Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Thank You for taking the time to reply to me. I will admit I still eat meat. I am trying to eat less and less everyday. In Western Civilization literally meat is the most popular food of choice. Unlike maybe other parts of the world. It is difficult but with trying I should be able to. When one stops eating meat and gets close to the dharma is that person forgiven by the divine? Is his deeds turned into oblivion? Are good people by nature considered evil or bad in eating meat? What happens to the good spiritual people who eats meat and then dies? Meat Eating is ok only if theres nothing else to eat. Some people stay in desert or some freezing condition, so sometimes meat is needed to survive. If one is going for War and needs to show Aggressiveness meat can be eaten for a purpose. Meat is clearly forbidden for sense enjoyment. A Hindu should be a person who refrains from eating meat. The 4 Vedic Working order of Brahmin, Ksayatria,Vasiyas and Sudra are all Vegetarians.. As long as you consume meat for sense enjoyment, you'll be known as a Melaacha(Meat Eating Race) which falls out of the Vedic System. (Note: Its sometimes Ok for a Ksayatria(Warriors) to consume meat, needed for War) According to the Three Mode of Material Nature. 1.Transcendental: Eating Vegetarian Food offered to Krishna. 2.Goodness : Eating Vegetarian Food without Onion and Garlic 2.Passion : Eating Vegetarian Food 3.Ignorance : Meat Eating Even you can classified Meat Eaters. 1.Goodness : Eating Meat for Survival. 2.Passion : Eating Meat for a purpose example Going for War.(Medicine) 3.Ignorance : Eating Meat for Sense Enjoyment. As long as on falls under the Ignorance mode, One has to take birth in a lower life forms Animals. The Best is Eat Prasadam(Food offer to Krishna). It will reduce your Negative Karmic Energies which will eventually make you a Vegetarian. I was once a Meat and a Beef eater after taking Prasadam very often i eventually gave up eating meat. Its takes a Great Soul to be a Vegetarian nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apep Posted March 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Meat Eating is ok only if theres nothing else to eat. Some people stay in desert or some freezing condition, so sometimes meat is needed to survive. If one is going for War and needs to show Aggressiveness meat can be eaten for a purpose. Meat is clearly forbidden for sense enjoyment. A Hindu should be a person who refrains from eating meat. The 4 Vedic Working order of Brahmin, Ksayatria,Vasiyas and Sudra are all Vegetarians.. As long as you consume meat for sense enjoyment, you'll be known as a Melaacha(Meat Eating Race) which falls out of the Vedic System. (Note: Its sometimes Ok for a Ksayatria(Warriors) to consume meat, needed for War) According to the Three Mode of Material Nature. 1.Transcendental: Eating Vegetarian Food offered to Krishna. 2.Goodness : Eating Vegetarian Food without Onion and Garlic 2.Passion : Eating Vegetarian Food 3.Ignorance : Meat Eating Even you can classified Meat Eaters. 1.Goodness : Eating Meat for Survival. 2.Passion : Eating Meat for a purpose example Going for War.(Medicine) 3.Ignorance : Eating Meat for Sense Enjoyment. As long as on falls under the Ignorance mode, One has to take birth in a lower life forms Animals. The Best is Eat Prasadam(Food offer to Krishna). It will reduce your Negative Karmic Energies which will eventually make you a Vegetarian. I was once a Meat and a Beef eater after taking Prasadam very often i eventually gave up eating meat. Its takes a Great Soul to be a Vegetarian nowadays. I myself eat meat out of survival. There really is no sense enjoyment that I know of. Indeed it does take good souls to become vegetarian. I don't find myself less knowledgeable or spiritual in eating meat. I also pray to the divine in my mind everytime I do eat. Also I am just explaining my beliefs on the matter, I do hope I don't sound offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sefroth77 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 I myself eat meat out of survival. There really is no sense enjoyment that I know of. Indeed it does take good souls to become vegetarian. I don't find myself less knowledgeable or spiritual in eating meat. I also pray to the divine in my mind everytime I do eat. Also I am just explaining my beliefs on the matter, I do hope I don't sound offensive. No you are not offensive at all. Try to be a Vegetarian, your life will change dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apep Posted March 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 No you are not offensive at all. Try to be a Vegetarian, your life will change dude. I am trying everyday. I shall do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganeshprasad Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 What do non-meat eating Hindus think of people who eat meat including beef? I am trying everyday. I shall do it. Jai Ganesh Personally I feel sorry for those poor animals that has to needlessly suffer due to man ignorance and cruelty. I wonder how many would actually kill to satisfy their tongue? I also feel sorry for those who eat it, because we do not know what awaits us, Karma does not spare anyone, if only we understood this simple law we would not do half the things that we do to try and enjoy in our miserable condition of existence. But it is heartening to know that the forum like this can change peoples mind even if in a small way. Your promise of giving up is a big step in right direction. Focus your mind on Lord Shiva he is asutosh very easily pleased Om namha Shivaya. Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apep Posted March 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Jai Ganesh Personally I feel sorry for those poor animals that has to needlessly suffer due to man ignorance and cruelty. I wonder how many would actually kill to satisfy their tongue? I also feel sorry for those who eat it, because we do not know what awaits us, Karma does not spare anyone, if only we understood this simple law we would not do half the things that we do to try and enjoy in our miserable condition of existence. But it is heartening to know that the forum like this can change peoples mind even if in a small way. Your promise of giving up is a big step in right direction. Focus your mind on Lord Shiva he is asutosh very easily pleased Om namha Shivaya. Jai Shree Krishna Thank You. Om Namha Shivaya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yegan Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 I am trying everyday. I shall do it. 'Vegatarianism' is the the best diet (my own belief, many wont agree with me). Eating meat is not recommended, eating cow is definitely the worst among the worst if you are after spiritual quest. I presume one can get away by eating say chicken, but definetely NOT by eating cow. To my knowledge I dont know any branch in hinduism which allows cow eating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singhi Kaya Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 What do non-meat eating Hindus think of people who eat meat including beef? Is it bad for a hindu to eat meat? I am not a vegetarian. I have tried being a vegetarian with no avail. I have come to terms with myself on this in a positive manner. I even give thanks to the divine for the meat that I do eat. I do hope this post does not offend anyone , but I must ask in order to secure my own knowledge on the subject. ( Also I am new to hinduism all togehter. I am currently trying to convert to Shaivism.) comments? I was born a brahmin and I have always ate meat. In my region (eastern <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>) meat eating is accepted even in brahmins. Food habits are determined by the geo-physical location of the individual. Some areas' veg diets are not easily found. There is absolutely nothing to do with vegetarianism and non-violence. This extreme position is only there in few cults and may have to do more with Jainism and Buddhism. Those who think non-violence implies vegetarianism have neither understood non-violence nor vegetarianism. I don't intend to indulge into arguments on this, but concept of non-violence is much more profound than jainist/buddhist non-killing - after all lord krishna inspired arjuna to slay his cousins!!! Vegetables are living beings too and eating them is killing as well.. Shakta’s sacrifice various animals in rituals – before consuming them. So eat what is more naturally available at your place. Vegetarian diet is more full of sattvic qualities helpful in a spiritual life. Meat is Rajasik or Tamasic depending on how it is prepared. That’s the only reason Veg diet is preferred, and it may not be suitable and possible for all. But please abstain from eating beef, if you plan to become a Hindu. There’s no alternative there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singhi Kaya Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Please present your evidence that it isn't sinful to kill animals and eat meat. The Gita proclaims any action not done for the purpose of sacrifice as sinful, and specifically states food that is not offered to God is eating sin: 3.13 yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin." - Bhagavad-gita 3.13 yajnarthat karmano ’nyatra loko ’yam karma-bandhanah tad-artham karma kaunteya mukta-sangah samacara "All action must be performed as a sacrifice for Vishnu, otherwise any action will cause bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform all actions for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage." - Bhagavad-gita 3.9 Let me first point out that the 2 slokas dosen't say meat eating is sin. They say something quite different. First one say's that those who eat food which has been first sacrificed in the yajna are liberated from all "sins", those who only prepare food for personal consumtion only are consuming sin. 2nd sloka is not at all related to food habits. Now can you present a case why vegetarianism is not killing? You are not going to argue the plants are non-living, I hope. Gita and Hindu/vedic philosphy is much more rich and profound than abrahamic concept of rules of God. In this world consumption is the way creation process works. One being consumes the other, one thought consumes another (in our mind). One strong and true doctrine often consumes the weak and false ones. To realize that this is the way of the world, yet I'm not this, is the goal. Eating animal is 100% sinless, unless you torture the animal for pleasure. As I have said, vegetarianism has to do with sattvic qualities in veg diet. Nothing else. Non-Violence (ahimsa = absence of himsha/in mind) <> Non-Killing. If you really follow later without a pinch of hypocracy, you will be dead - right now!!! Just my understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Eating animal is 100% sinless, unless you torture the animal for pleasure. Is that true, I'm not advanced, but I find that statement to be false! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 True: killing plants is also killing but that is not a justification for killing animals. The person who has attained a state of detachment as spoken by Sri Krishna is free from the karma of killing, as there is no deliberation with intent to cause suffering. But presumably such a person is also above the notion of "I am being killed/hurt" and rather holds every action as service to the Lord and with no personal desire. This is rare, and those not having attained such a state should be careful not to use such arguments. If killing animals and eating them is fine, the same logic can and does apply to human beings as well. The barriers that keep us from such logic are functionally efficient but not philosophically sound. We can never presume judgement over the life and consciousness of another being. The ant holds to its life with as much vigour as the human being; we cannot deny this. It wants to persist in this world. Thus to kill it by raising a false mental barrier of detachment, or attributing a lower status to another species, is spiritual hypocrisy. This world is a playground where life and death of the physical bodies are inevitable factors. Don't seek justification or allowance for the acts you find yourself compelled to take part in; there is none at the level of our search. The only refuge is the uncompromising statements of Sri Krishna's second chapter Gita, but that also means we must accept our lives without complaint, knowing that all is part of His play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 In my region (eastern India) meat eating is accepted even in brahmins. This just shows how degraded society has become in Kali yuga, that even Brahmanas engage in sinful conduct. Of course today a brahmana is simply determined by birth, not by proper qualities, thus there is no meaning to these things anymore. It is common in East India (Orissa, Bengal, etc.) for Brahmanas to eat meat, especially fish, but that is because they are fallen from the Vedic path. In South India Brahmanas are much more strict and some remnants of the Vedic culture remain. Regardless, anyone who wants to pursue spiritual life must practice vegetarianism. This is the conclusion of the saints and scriptures alike. Eating animal is 100% sinless, unless you torture the animal for pleasure. This is nonsensical. All of the scriptures speak against killing animals and eating meat. These forums are free for discussion, but you can't make baseless claims that the scriptures say something and expect it to be believed. Such claims will require you to cite evidence, so that a proper debate can occur, otherwise the claims will be removed. The Gita proclaims any action not done for the purpose of sacrifice to God as sinful, and specifically states food that is not offered to God is eating sin. Elsewhere in the scriptures we find: ye tv anevaḿ-vido 'santaḥ stabdhāḥ sad-abhimāninaḥ paśūn druhyanti viśrabdhāḥ pretya khādanti te ca tān "Those sinful persons who are ignorant of actual religious principles, yet consider themselves to be completely pious, without compunction commit violence against innocent animals who are fully trusting in them. In their next lives, such sinful persons will be eaten by the same creatures they have killed in this world." And the definition of meat is given as mam sah (mamsa, mamisam, ayansa, etc. in todays languages): mām sa bhakṣayitāmutra yasya māmsam ihādmy aham etan māḿsasya māmsatvaḿ pravadanti manīṣiṇaḥ "That creature (sah) whose flesh I am eating here and now will consume me (mam) in the next life.' Thus meat is called māmsa, as described by learned authorities." Even killing animals for sacrifice is sinful as mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatam. You will still have to suffer the reactions even if the animal has been killed for yajna, the karma cannot be avoided: bho bhoḥ prajāpate rājan paśūn paśya tvayādhvare saḿjñāpitān jīva-sańghān nirghṛṇena sahasraśaḥ ete tvāḿ sampratīkṣante smaranto vaiśasaḿ tava samparetam ayaḥ-kūṭaiś chindanty utthita-manyavaḥ "O ruler of the citizens, my dear King, please see in the sky those animals which you have sacrificed, without compassion and without mercy, in the sacrificial arena. All these animals are awaiting your death so that they can avenge the injuries you have inflicted upon them. After you die, they will angrily pierce your body with iron horns." (Bhāg. 4.25.7-8) And elsewhere in the Bhagavatam it says that the only person who is unfit to receive knowledge of the Lord is that person who causes harm to animals and eats their flesh. All these blind statements that it isn't sinful to eat meat are just to satsify our minds that we aren't committing sin. If we look at the scriptures we will see a different conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 From Hinduism Today: Hindu scripture speaks clearly and forcefully on nonkilling and vegetarianism. In the ancient Rig Veda, we read: "O vegetable, be succulent, wholesome, strengthening; and thus, body, be fully grown." The Yajur Veda summarily dictates: "Do not injure the beings living on the earth, in the air and in the water." The beautiful Tirukural, a widely-read 2,000-year-old masterpiece of ethics, speaks of conscience: "When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh of another creature, he must abstain from eating it." The Manu Samhita advises: "Having well considered the origin of flesh and the cruelty of fettering and slaying of corporeal beings, let one entirely abstain from eating flesh." In the yoga-infused verses of the Tirumantiram, warning is given of how meat-eating holds the mind in gross, adharmic states: "The ignoble ones who eat flesh, death's agents bind them fast and push them quick into the fiery jaws of hell (Naraka, lower consciousness)." The roots of noninjury, nonkilling and nonconsumption of meat are found in the Vedas, agamas, Upanishads, Dharma Shastras, Tirumurai, Yoga Sutras and dozens of other sacred texts of Hinduism. Here is a select collection. Vedas and agamas, Hinduism's Revealed Scriptures LET YOUR AIMS BE COMMON, and your hearts be of one accord, and all of you be of one mind, so you may live well together. Rig Veda Samhita 10.191 Protect both our species, two-legged and four-legged. Both food and water for their needs supply. May they with us increase in stature and strength. Save us from hurt all our days, O Powers! Rig Veda Samhita 10.37.11. VE, 319 One who partakes of human flesh, the flesh of a horse or of another animal, and deprives others of milk by slaughtering cows, O King, if such a fiend does not desist by other means, then you should not hesitate to cut off his head. Rig Veda Samhita, 10.87.16, FS 90 Peaceful be the earth, peaceful the ether, peaceful heaven, peaceful the waters, peaceful the herbs, peaceful the trees. May all Gods bring me peace. May there be peace through these invocations of peace. With these invocations of peace which appease everything, I render peaceful whatever here is terrible, whatever here is cruel, whatever here is sinful. Let it become auspicious, let everything be beneficial to us. Atharva Veda Samhita 10. 191. 4 Those noble souls who practice meditation and other yogic ways, who are ever careful about all beings, who protect all animals, are the ones who are actually serious about spiritual practices. Atharva Veda Samhita 19.48.5. FS, 90 If we have injured space, the earth or heaven, or if we have offended mother or father, from that may Agni, fire of the house, absolve us and guide us safely to the world of goodness. Atharva Veda Samhita 6.120.1. VE, 636 You must not use your God-given body for killing God's creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever. Yajur Veda Samhita 12.32. FS, 90May all beings look at me with a friendly eye. May I do likewise, and may we all look on each other with the eyes of a friend. Yajur Veda 36.18. Nonviolence is all the offerings. Renunciation is the priestly honorarium. The final purification is death. Thus all the Divinities are established in this body. Krishna Yajur Veda, Prana Upanishad 46-8. VE, 413-14 To the heavens be peace, to the sky and the earth; to the waters be peace, to plants and all trees; to the Gods be peace, to Brahman be peace, to all men be peace, again and again-peace also to me! O earthen vessel, strengthen me. May all beings regard me with friendly eyes! May I look upon all creatures with friendly eyes! With a friend's eye may we regard each other! Shukla Yajur Veda Samhita 36.17-18. VE, 306; 342 No pain should be caused to any created being or thing. Devikalottara agama, JAV 69-79. RM, 116 The Mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita, Epic History The very name of the cows is aghnya, indicating that they should never be slaughtered. Who, then could slay them? Surely, one who kills a cow or a bull commits the most heinous crime. Mahabharata, Shantiparva 262.47. FS,pg. 94 The purchaser of flesh performs himsa (violence) by his wealth; he who eats flesh does so by enjoying its taste; the killer does himsa by actually tying and killing the animal. Thus, there are three forms of killing: he who brings flesh or sends for it, he who cuts off the limbs of an animal, and he who purchases, sells or cooks flesh and eats it -all of these are to be considered meat-eaters. Mahabharata, Anu. 115.40. FS, pg 90 He who desires to augment his own flesh by eating the flesh of other creatures lives in misery in whatever species he may take his birth. Mahabharata, Anu. 115.47. FS, pg. 90 One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one's own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Yielding to desire and acting differently, one becomes guilty of adharma. Mahabharata 18.113.8. Those high-souled persons who desire beauty, faultlessness of limbs, long life, understanding, mental and physical strength and memory should abstain from acts of injury. Mahabharata 18.115.8. Ahimsa is the highest dharma. Ahimsa is the best tapas. Ahimsa is the greatest gift. Ahimsa is the highest self-control. Ahimsa is the highest sacrifice. Ahimsa is the highest power. Ahimsa is the highest friend. Ahimsa is the highest truth. Ahimsa is the highest teaching. Mahabharata 18.116.37-41. He who sees that the Lord of all is ever the same in all that is-immortal in the field of mortality-he sees the truth. And when a man sees that the God in himself is the same God in all that is, he hurts not himself by hurting others. Then he goes, indeed, to the highest path. Bhagavad Gita 13. 27-28. BgM, pg. 101 Nonviolence, truth, freedom from anger, renunciation, serenity, aversion to fault-finding, sympathy for all beings, peace from greedy cravings, gentleness, modesty, steadiness, energy, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, a good will, freedom from pride-these belong to a man who is born for heaven. Bhagavad Gita 16.2-3. BGM, pg. 109 Tirumantiram and other Scriptures Many are the lovely flowers of worship offered to the Guru, but none lovelier than non-killing. Respect for life is the highest worship, the bright lamp, the sweet garland and unwavering devotion. Tirumantiram 197 SPIRITUAL MERIT and sin are our own making. The killer of other lives is an outcast. Match your words with your conduct. Steal not, kill not, indulge not in self-praise, condemn not others to their face. Lingayat Vachanas AHIMSA IS NOT CAUSING pain to any living being at any time through the actions of one's mind, speech or body. Sandilya UpanishadWhen mindstuff is firmly based in waves of ahimsa, all living beings cease their enmity in the presence of such a person. Yoga Sutras 2.35. YP, pg. 205 Those who are ignorant of real dharma and, though wicked and haughty, account themselves virtuous, kill animals without any feeling of remorse or fear of punishment. Further, in their next lives, such sinful persons will be eaten by the same creatures they have killed in this world. Shrimad Bhagavatam 11.5.4. FS, pg, 90 The Tirukural, Preeminent Ethical Scripture Perhaps nowhere is the principle of nonmeat-eating so fully and eloquently expressed as in the Tirukural, written in the Tamil language by a simple weaver saint in a village near Madras over 2,000 years ago. Considered the world's greatest ethical scripture, it is sworn on in South Indian courts of law.It is the principle of the pure in heart never to injure others, even when they themselves have been hatefully injured. What is virtuous conduct? It is never destroying life, for killing leads to every other sin. 312; 321, TW Harming others, even enemies who harmed you unprovoked, assures incessant sorrow. The supreme principle is this: never knowingly harm any one at any time in any way. 313; 317, TW What is the good way? It is the path that reflects on how it may avoid killing any living creature. Refrain from taking precious life from any living being, even to save your own life. 324; 327, TW How can he practice true compassion Who eats the flesh of an animal to fatten his own flesh? TK 251, TW Riches cannot be found in the hands of the thriftless. Nor can compassion be found in the hearts of those who eat meat. TK 252, TW Goodness is never one with the minds of these two: one who wields a weapon and one who feasts on a creature's flesh. TK 253, TW If you ask, "What is kindness and what is unkind?" it is not killing and killing. Thus, eating flesh is never virtuous. TK 254, TW Life is perpetuated by not eating meat.The clenched jaws of hell hold those who do. TK 255, TW If the world did not purchase and consume meat, there would be none to slaughter and offer meat for sale. TK 256, TW When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh of another creature, he must abstain from eating it. TK 257, TW Perceptive souls who have abandoned passion will not feed on flesh abandoned by life. TK 258, TW Greater than a thousand ghee offerings consumed in sacrificial fires is to not sacrifice and consume any living creature. TK 259, TW All that lives will press palms together in prayerful adoration of those who refuse to slaughter and savor meat. TK 260, TW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Now can you present a case why vegetarianism is not killing? You are not going to argue the plants are non-living, I hope. These questions have been brought up dozens of times in this forum and answered as many times, so I will just repost the old answers which are available here: Isn't the killing of plants also violence? http://www.bvashram.org/articles/24/1/Isn%26%2339%3Bt-the-killing-of-plants-also-violence%3F and another relevant topic here: Sanctified Food; The Process of Sadhana http://www.bvashram.org/articles/56/1/Sanctified-Food%3B-The-Process-of-Sadhana And if anyone plans to start "Well Rama also ate meat", please do a search in these forums and find the other 10 threads where that has been shown to be false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Vegetables are living beings too and eating them is killing as well. Hari OM Yes it is true plants also have life and possibly feelings (because there are slokas to utter when plucking leaves or flowers from it) As long as you are completely out of attachement , whatever you eat, veg, non-veg, beef or even humans does not affect you. However almost 99% of society is not out of attachement. Hence, i think Yagnavalika smrithi, states these four process of gradual detatchment from taste sense, in Hinduism many of the practices are gradual can take years to practice and perfect and there is no hurry, pressure or deadlines (after all you have billions and billions of years in one cosmic day) The four stages are: Stage-I: Pure vegetrian diet Stage-II: Uncooked, vegetables,fruits and water, because while cooking small insects and living organisms gets destoryed in the fire and boiling water Stage-III: only ripe fruits and vegetables fallen from tree, to avoid pain during plucking Stage-IV: only air,water and moonlight , to avoid the killing of small organisms in the fallen fruits , (even at this stage you are still killing a few million microrganisms in air and water -- however you can't become more vegan than this stage) When you reach stage-iv, your mind, senses, talk and body would be automatically cleansed and you can shake off the attachements. But if you are not even ready to enter stage-I and keep arguing that since Stage-I also involves some pain and killings , so I will remove in stage-0 then it is your problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Ow lord's greatest song will soon die away from this planet. - and I assure you, he didn't sing Gita to resove the puny issue of what to eat and drink. I'm not a scolar, but keep a scientifc attitude to my religions and so far it only been rewarding. Hari OM 1) Yes i do think that the lord's greatest song may die away from this planet, and i think because mainly there would be no persons capable or willing to hold it. 2) Also eating and drinking is not punny issue , Bhagvan explains about three kinds of food , sattavic, rajasic and tamasic in Gita, (and we can see in everyday life that if a person take some drug or alchol he looses his control over mind, so there must be some relation between your stomach and brain, in all foods the effect is felt slowly but in powerful foods the result is immediate) 3) i agree with your point that threatening people with hell for eating non-veg is probably an abrahmic style and would do more harm than good in the long run , at the same time there is also need to educate about sattavic type of food and encourage people (at least a few who are interested in spirituality) to move towards it. 4) also the division of brahmin, kshatriya... etc have become almost moot today, since varnashrama has become legally and ethically wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Further posts by people claiming eating meat is 100% sinless will not be entertained unless they complete the following: 1) All above verses that unequivacally state eating meat to be sinful must be dealt with directly verse by verse. 2) Counter scriptural evidence must be provided with original sanskrit stating eating meat to be sinless. Verses without sanskrit provided will not be entertained, as someone's english copy and paste from anti-hindu websites carry no weight in these forums. Unless these two points can be met, further opinions will not be entertained. This forum bases its discussions on scripture, not on personal opinions. We will not allow people to misrepresent our religious texts without evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Someone has alleged the Manu Samhita declares eating meat to be sinless. Here is what the Manu Samhita actually declares: anumantaa vishasitaa nihantaa krayavikrayii | sa.nskartaa chopahartaa cha khaadakashcheti ghaatakaaH || svamaa.nsaM paramaa.nsena yo vardhayitumichchhati | anabhyarchya pitR^In.h devaa.nstato.anyo naastyapuNyakR^it.h “He who permits the slaughter of an animal, he who cuts it up, he who kills it, he who buys or sells meat, he who cooks it, he who serves it up, and he who eats it, must all be considered as the slayers of the animal. There is no greater sinner than that man who though not worshiping the pitrus or the ancestors, seeks to increase the bulk of his own flesh by the flesh of other beings.” (Manu-samhita 5.51-52) In ancient times particular animals were offered as a sacrificial offering to the pitrus, not as food. Foolish people being misled by anti Hindu sites read these descriptions and conclude that eating meat is sinless despite the fact that throughout the Vedic scriptures killing of animals is forbidden. Even the pitru yajna, which is one of the few ancient sacrifices involving flesh, is forbidden in the Kali yuga: asvamedham gavalambham sannyasam palapaitrkam | devarena sutopattim kalau panca vivarjayet || “Five things are forbidden in the age of Kali – horse-sacrifice, cow-sacrifice, acceptance of sannyasa, offering flesh to the forefathers (pitru yajna) and begetting a child in the womb of the wife of one’s elder brother.” (Brahma-vaivarta Purana, Krsna-jnama Khanda 185.180) Elsewhere in the Manu Samhita we find the following: yaGYaaya jagdhirmaa.nsasyetyeshha daivo vidhiH smR^itaH | ato.anyathaa pravR^ittistu raakshaso vidhiruchyate || "‘The consumption of meat is only for Pitru yajna,’ that is declared to be a rule made by the gods; but to persist (in using it) on other (occasions) is said to be a proceeding worthy of Rakshasas." So in the direct words of Manu, all of the Hindus who eat meat are Rakshasas - demons, not even human, what to speak of Brahmanas. More from Manu: yaavanti pashuromaaNi taavatkR^itvo ha maaraNam.h | vR^ithaapashughnaH praapnoti pretya janmani janmani || "As many hairs as the slain beast has, so often indeed will he who killed it suffer violent deaths birth after birth." yo.ahi.nsakaani bhuutaani hinastyaatmasukhaichchhayaa | sa jiivaa.nshcha mR^itashchaiva na kva chit.h sukhamedhate || "He who injures harmless animals due to a wish to satisfy his senses, never finds happiness, neither while living nor dead." yo bandhanavadhakleshaan.h praaNinaaM na chikiirshhati | sa sarvasya hitaprepsuH sukhamatyantamashnute || "He who does not cause suffering and death to animals, but desires the good of all living entities, obtains endless bliss." yad.h dhyaayati yat.h kurute ratiM badhnaati yatra cha | tadavaapnotyayatnena yo hinasti na kiM chana || "He who never harms any creature, attains without an effort what ever he desires, succeeds in what he undertakes, and attains what he fixes his mind on." samutpattiM cha maa.nsasya vadhabandhau cha dehinaam.h | prasamiikshya nivarteta sarvamaa.nsasya bhakshaNaat.h || "Having well considered the disgusting origin of meat and the cruelty of slaying innocent animals, everyone should completely abstain from eating meat." na bhakshayati yo maa.nsaM vidhiM hitvaa pishaachavat.h | na loke priyataaM yaati vyaadhibhishcha na piiDyate || "He who avoids eating the meat from the Pitru yagna, does not eat like a Pisacha (demon). He becomes dear to all, and will not be tormented by diseases. " varshhe varshhe.ashvamedhena yo yajeta shataM samaaH | maa.nsaani cha na khaaded.h yastayoH puNyaphalaM samam.h || "He who during a hundred years annually offers an ashvamedha yajna, and he who entirely abstains from meat, obtain the same reward for their meritorious (conduct)." maaM sa bhakshayitaa.amutra yasya maa.nsamihaad.h myaham.h | etatmaa.nsasya maa.nsatvaM pravadanti maniishhiNaH || "‘Me he (mam sah)’ will devour in the next (world), whose flesh I eat in this (life); the wise declare this (to be) the real meaning of the word ‘flesh’ (mamsah)." Thus it is abundantly clear that Manu has forbidden the killing of animals for food. Only those who receive their knoweldge of Hindu scriptures from anti-Hindu websites, instead of from saints and gurus, fall for these absurd claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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