BBT to change all pronouns (He) refering to Krishna to lower case

[Guest guest]

Capitalizing the "H" is vaidhi bhakti - thinking of God in awe and reverance. How will we ever enter the vrndavana mood with that type of mentality?

 

I think they should leave the books as they are, but I see their point - we worship Radha and Krishna as the beautiful, youthful couple of Vraja. Not as God Almighty.

[Guest guest]

Yes. . . but who is on that level? You think someone in the street who gets a book for the first time needs to just be thinking about Radha and Krishna as the beautiful youthful couple of Vraja? Why not just sell them 10th canto? That'd make a nice first book. . .

First we need to properly understand Krishna's position.

[Guest guest]

I said in my last message that I think they should leave the books as they are. The "H" is vaidhi bhakti comment was sort of a joke, although I do think thats true.

 

I think part of the problem is this: Prabhupada's followers have this conception that his books are something like "the lawbooks for the next 10,000 years" or something riddiculous like that, and that it's practically offensive for ISKCON devotees to read anything else. So with that kind of pressure on their gurus books, they want them to be perfect in every way. If you have faith that your guru is the ultimate guru that all others should accept, then you're going to want his books to be as perfect as possible. I think it's like this ego thing that people feel like maybe Prabhupada's books are being eclipsed by other books, and so if they're updated there is more hope that they'll fulfill those kinds of unrealistic expectation.

 

It's also a fact that Prabhupada produced most of his books incredibly quickly, recording into a microphone and then publishing without really looking through and editing whatever was produced. Who else publishes their books that way? One thing that can be said is that if he was really uptight about every last detail he would not have done that.

 

I say Prabhupada's books are what they are, perfect or whatever, and everyone should just leave them alone. If you want books that better suit your fancy, make new ones. If you're losing faith that maybe your gurus books are no longer the best spiritual books on the market, then maybe it's good for your advancement to eat that type of humble pie.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

I e-mailed Swamji. Reply was to read the revisions for 2nd Edition Bhagavad-gita As It Is. I guess I didn't make my point very clearly.

 

I replied back to say the changes in Chaitanya Charitamrta, and

that the style of Prabhupada writing was being washed away. etc.

 

I don't know I doubt anything I saw will have any impact, since

if somebody is adament to do something [like with me and the copyright

issue with BBT -they gave it in the end!]. But I suggested that maybe

we can have the Original Books in print at least like BG, SB [you can get] and CC.

[vee 0]

my last words on the matter -

for me, prabhupada's printed words, the way he approved of them when he was physically present, convey the message he wanted to convey -

that "He", when we refer to Krsna is to show that "He" is not the same as "he" - to show people that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead - afterall, that is the point isn't it - of the Hare Krsna movement ? - to show the world that He is God - and not to be confused with some other "he" who may be falsley representing himself as God - and the point about giving the story away .... i find that laughable ! we are not talking about some mundane thriller here !

the quote mentioned in an earlier post about prabhupada talking about capitalising, is enough for me - a short, concise, definitive answer to a straight forward question !

if anyone thinks that by ignoring his instructions to make such changes is going to sell more books or make them more widely accepted, they may have a rude awaking sometime down the track

i thought we were of the opinion that his words were transcendental - that they acted upon the heart not the brain - so lets spend our time and resources more constructively by getting the books out there the way prabhupada intended

hare krishna

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

Reply, edit please but don't delete it! its important:

Dear Pankaja Prabhu,

 

>No Swamiji I'm talking about the other changes as well. To CC, and

>Bhagavatam.

 

It seems you're being badly misinformed.

 

Despite what some people would like you to believe, the edition of the

Bhagavatam the BBT publishes now is the same one it has published

since 1977--no changes.

 

For the changes to CC. . . There's a letter from the BBT about this on

Chakra.org, I think, in response to a letter sent by Kelilalita Dasi.

In summary: The new CC is closer to (not farther from) Srila

Prabhupada's original.

 

>I heard recenlty

>you will make Krsna captitals 'Him' into him low letters.

 

Please don't lose sleep over it. In all of Srila Prabhupada's books,

"Krsna" will stay capitalized.

 

>I heard

>this on a forum.

 

Please don't mind my saying so, but the less time we spend on forums

and the more we spend chanting Hare Krsna and preaching Krsna's

message, the more we will benefit the world.

 

Hare Krsna.

 

Hoping this finds you in good health,

[gHari 0]

After reading the reasons for the Gita changes, I realized that we are now getting more Prabhupada than before. It sounds like this is also the case with the Sri Caitanya-caritamrta changes too. It was good advice you were given, Pankaja. It could save you a lot of aparadha in the future.

 

I wished you were given a bit more info about the capital pronouns though.

 

If you do write your friend again, please pass on my list of considerations presented here entitled "There is only one Him". I think it makes a couple of significant points that cannot be easily dismissed, especially 'Vishnu-tattva' which may well be a conclusive argument for Him forever.

 

gHari

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

It could save you a lot of aparadha in the future.

 

Now I know my abc's [sort of] I am going to try for my efg's and read Bhagavatam. Between me and you, I know why it says 'bhagavatam is relisable' it is because it describes the PERSONAL aspect of God.

[vee 0]

From Pankaja_Dasa's previous post :-

Pankaja_Dasa: "I heard recently you will make Krsna captitals 'Him' into him low letters".

 

Jayadvaita Swami: "Please don't lose sleep over it. In all of Srila Pabhupada's books, "Krsna" will stay capitalized".

... seems like evasion of the issue to me ... very distrubing indeed.

in fact its not so much the changing of the pronouns to lower case which disturbs me most ... but the mood of knowing what Srila Prbahupada meant ... who can honestly claim that ?

and as one guest said "I am beginning to realise on an internal level, what a treasure Srila Prabhupada is. Understanding that his vani is nondifferent from him, I think it is sad, that due to such changes, I may in fact not be able to relish deeply Prabhupada's "pure" vani.

this is the crux of the issue ...

who is really qualified to make these changes ..? no matter how academically astute one may be .. this issue goes beyond those kinds of considerations.

i am definitely no acadamic ... but i feel in my heart that something is not right about changing Prabhupada's words ...

does it mean that if sometime down the track some style guide or other wipes out capitalisation of proper nouns altogether, as the english language changes (ultimately as we know, by the ravages of kali yuga and maya) we will then only see krsna rather than Krsna ?

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

The discussions about book changes have been moved to a seperate thread, as they obscured this thread's focus on the pronouns.

[Guest guest]

Did it ever occur to anyone that the reason these editing style guides don't like to capitalize Divinities is because they are developed by atheist materialists? They don't like the fact that capitalization has an implied bias in favor of spirit over matter. So why are we copying? Next we'll be calling Father Projenetor A and Mother Projenetor B. The world is getting crazy, we don't have to follow along.

[Guest guest]

I think it's a great idea to circulate a petition. Some action needs to be taken before these people make Prabhupada's books unrecognizable. Aren't there other more important tasks for these people than changing the books?

 

Rama Raghava Das

 

 

i am outraged that the bbt has taken this decision... who cares about the chicago writing standards ... who are these rascals anyway ...???

i agree with you jn das ... what is coming next ... ???? what other changes are the bbt going to make ?

as devotees and disciples of srila prabhupada we already stand apart from the rest of society ... and isn't that the point anyway ... we are tryining not to be like everybody else ...

who cares for their sense gratification grammer and subject matter ??? prabhupada didnt ... and neither should we ....

i think we should run a petition and get some kind of consenus from the greater devotee family ... this is not a small thing we are talking about here ... its akin to treason ... spiritual treason ... and the consequenses for iskcon are immense ...

shame on you bbt ... and again, i am outraged !

[theist 1]

 

No BBT editor has suggested this, but people have actually suggested it, for example one of the editors of Chakra. She also has suggested removing a number of statements she finds derogatory to women. We can be happy that no one has taken her serious yet.

YET being the frightening future unknown.

 

[theist 1]

http://books.krishna.org/Articles/2005/02/grammar.html

[ng dasa 0]

I am much refreshed and very grateful for the above post and these words of Srila Prabhupada and his discussion on SB 1.5.11.

 

Hypothetically speaking, if my Gurudeva was very simple and not so scholarly in his approach, but his love for GaurangaKrsna was very sweet and pure, this substance of sweetness and love would be deep within his writings. Even if there were "socalled" imperfections in the actual written words, this sweet substance would still be there for the taking.

 

It is such a peaceful feeling when one's heart sings to these sweet things. As kali yuga increases, I hope to become capable of tasting such sweetness and to be saved from so much mental confusion which I so often create for myself.

[ng dasa 0]

The following verse, even though not directly related to the capital letters subject or changes to SP's books, has been helpful for me to keep focus on how to approach the conversations on the two current threads.

As I only have the current BBT versions of Prabhupada's books, and to be honest find them very nice, I will reflect on this verse....in case any of Prabhupada's words are subtly changed due to editing in the latest versions.

 

SB 1.5.11 from Sri Sri Prapanna-jivanamritam 1.6 by HH BR Sridhar Swami.

 

"Even if every stanza is imperfectly composed, that is, unlucidly expressed, the sins of the people are totally vanquished by those expressions or books in which the holy names of the Infinite Supreme Lord are described - since the pure devotees hear those holy names (from a qualified preacher), they solitarily sing those holy names (even in the absence of others), and they chant the unending glories of those holy names (in the presence of a deserving listener)."

 

Maybe if I can hold this verse in my heart and Srila Prabhupada's words from the previous link also; just maybe in some thousand or so years from now when I am still roaming this planet I maybe able to extract the essence of love of Krsna from whatever remants of scripture I have acces to at that time.

[theist 1]

Fortunately it is the Lord in the heart that enlightens us. Even if we are sitting directly in front of the enilightened devotee as he discourses on Krsna we won't catch a thing without the grace of Caitya-guru. Conversely He can turn the sound of a train going by into a transcendental sloka that carries our minds to His feet.

 

We have no excuse for not coming to Him. Maya's job is to place obstacles in our path. Do we turn away from our goal of attaining bhakti because someone messed with the books or the GBC are doing this and not doing that?

 

We cannot. We have seen too much. Krsna simply must rescue us from this crazy friggin' horror show. We have no other shelter, there is no where else to go.

[theist 1]

That said, one has to wonder about the motives at play here on the part of the BBT, consciously or below the surface. I can't say myself but here are a couple of things that amke me go ...Hmmmmm?

Why not discuss the book changes openly with the devotee community, making the BBT's intentions known BEFORE the books received editing? As well as in some proper manner noting the reason for the each and every change at the bottom of the page, in an appendix or as a companion book where the devotees could easily reference them ALL in an orderly fashion(not just a selected few appearing on some devotee website from time to time).

Afterall these books are Divine treasures to Prabhupada's students and disciples and their faith and feelings are paramount over some scholars nod of approval.

These are the same people they ask to walk the streets selling these books as service to Srila Prabhupada and Krishna so is it wise to weaken their enthusiasm for doing so?

The BBT seems determined to create another controversy, now over pronouns, and weaken many peoples faith in Prabhupada's books. Why? What's the motive?

Is this pronoun change a way of sticking it to those that spoke in dismay over the other editing and changes? Could this really be that petty? Yes, I think it could be.

They create factions by their actions and then rail against those factions formed as trouble makers.

What is behind all these childish and harmful displays? Certainly blind arrogance at the very least.

So while keeping "eyes on the prize" of Krsna bhakti as best as I can, I am forced to mention my view that the way the BBT is handling things is actually a form of violence against the devotee body at large, using Prabhupada's books as a stick.

[vee 0]

i think anyone who is concerned about this issue should write to the bbt ... at least we can say we have done all there is to be done in making our voices heard.. as soon as i found out about this issue i went to iskcon.com and sent an email to them ... so far no reply ... but a part of me didnt expect one! but a part of me also could not stand by and not do anything about it... so if you havent done so already ... keep those fingers moving and stand and be counted ... obeisances and best wishes to all ... vee

[vee 0]

so what do we all think about this latest offering from the "sun" web site ???

 

 

Minor Case or Capital Controversy?

BY: DHARINI DEVI DASI

 

 

 

Mar 15, PORTLAND, OREGON (SUN) — Srila Prabhupada’s

books are hailed as scholarly because they capture the

essence of the Vedas. He meticulously translated while

consulting previous acaryas in order to present a

faithful rendition of the original texts. A close

examination of word-for-word translations of the

slokas highlights the difficulty of translating into

another language. Our Sanskrit pandits will agree that

some words are translated liberally rather than

literally in order to preserve the essential meaning.

As such, content is much more important than form.

 

 

Recent posts in the Sampradaya Sun illustrate a wide

concern that using lower-case pronouns when referring

to Radha and Krishna may be a departure from the Vedic

tradition, is irreverent, and might mislead readers

into an erroneous view of God as devoid of divinity.

While mindful of these concerns, I would like to

respectfully suggest that the philosophy in our

scriptures is so rich and extensive that in

comparison, the capitalization of pronouns does little

to insure philosophical accuracy and reverence. The

choice of words and abundant qualifiers like “the

Supreme Personality of Godhead” are greatly more

effective than capitalization.

 

 

There are no capital letters in Sanskrit. Many

languages do not use them. Our own alphabet, based on

the Roman system, can be traced back to the Etruscan,

Greek, Phoenician and Egyptian writing systems where

throughout antiquity, only capital letters were used.

Lower-case letters first appeared in the Roman

alphabet in the 8th century under the patronage of

Charlemagne. Therefore, ancient scriptures and texts

did not differentiate divine pronouns, and

capitalization rules today depend on the particular

language. For example, in Swahili, capital letters are

sometimes found in the middle of words. Srila

Prabhupada’s books are translated into many languages

where there are no capital letters. Are we to ignore

their rules of grammar and somehow capitalize divine

pronouns in those languages? If not, how can we argue

ignoring the “mundane” rules of grammar in English? We

need a consistent policy.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada’s instructions are unequivocal

regarding getting our books into the hands of the

public so that lives may be transformed. Presentation

is very important, which includes proper syntax,

grammar, and vocabulary. Srila Prabhupada’s writing

style, with the assistance of editors, is a vast

departure from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s style, and

reflects a later 20th century American English.

Similarly, the last twenty years have seen tremendous

changes in the English language, largely due to

cultural, political and technological influences.

Graduates today are accustomed to the modern rules of

grammar. Students who ignore recent amendments will

find corrections on their writing submissions, as I

have experienced first-hand. Writers who use outdated

vocabulary and grammar may not be taken seriously and

their publications will be considered badly written.

 

 

For almost a century, the leading authority on English

grammar in the United States has been the “Chicago

Manual of Style”, published by the University of

Chicago. It is revised periodically with the

collaboration of leading academics and professional

writers from various disciplines. It is a definitive

guide used by serious writers and publishers. It is

only fitting that ISKCON editors consult the manual in

matters of grammar to maintain the scholarly standard

that Srila Prabhupada brought to his writings. Few

would oppose changing the book covers to increase

their appeal. Why would it be wrong to update the

grammar (in a conservative and careful way) in future

publications to maximize the respect our literature

deserves? Meanwhile, let’s not forget that a battle

between capital and minor-case pronouns is a battle

over form rather than content. Both sides aim at

preserving and spreading Krishna Consciousness.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Meanwhile, let’s not forget that a battle

between capital and minor-case pronouns is a battle

over form rather than content.

I find it very offensive how this person tries to brush aside the entire matter by pretending its no big deal. They fail to see the severity of going against Prabhupada's direct order.

[Guest guest]

 

There are no capital letters in Sanskrit. Many

languages do not use them.

What a strawman argument! Languages are different and the rules in one language can never be applied to another. Yes, many languages don't have capital letters but isn't it also true that these languages usually have honorific and familiar pronouns? Especially in Indic languages like Bengali where there is tu (singular, familiar you), tumi (singular, affectionate you) and aap (singular, honorific you). Hey, modern English even does not diferenciate between singular and plural "you". That leads to think that capitalization in English is not just arbitrary convention but a necessity to compensate the lacking features of a language.

 

English is not my native language and I am not expert in its subtleties but I can say that for me the capitalized pronouns are very helpful for understanding and appreciation of vaisnava literature. Please, also take into consideration that it is projected that soon there will be about 2 billion English speakers in the world from whom only 600-700 million will be native speakers. The Chicago Manual of Style may set a standard for Americans but the world is wider than that.

 

karuna

[vee 0]

After following this issue for the last week or so, what really concerns me is, that when I go to Srila Prabhupada's books for solace and enlightenment, what I might be getting instead, is the product of a perceived need to conform to a style of English that is predominantly geared towards sense gratification. When one changes He to he, it IS a change of content. In the mindset of most people on the planet that speak and read English, a capitilised pronoun denotes divinity. So by changing He to he most people who have never heard of the Chicago Manual Style (had you until you became inolved in this issue ?) and are new to Srila Prabhupada's books, will not grasp the subtelty of the capitalised pronouns SP used throughout his books. For 1st and 2nd and even 3rd generation devotees that understanding is there from years of seeing He rather than he, but for newcomers to his books ... it will be impossible for them to differenciate the hes when, for example, Lord Caitanya "he" is talking to lower-than-the-straw-in-the-street "he" and so on.

I understand that there was a need in the early days for some editing of Srila Prabhupada's English with regard to form, after all he authorised it. But who is qualified to alter the content of his work, especially now he is no longer physically present and unable to guide us in the subtleties of the Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy. When he was writing, we are told, he would labour for hours over the choice of words ... lets not offend him by undoing that work.

[gabriel927 0]

It is the Roman english norm that the word for God is always capitalised. Krishna and God share the same divinity. the pronoun for God is also capitalised, so it should not be edited.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

BBT Word on Divine Pronouns

CORRESPONDENT

 

Mar 21, USA (SUN) — A recent query was sent to the BBT by Vyapaka dasa, who asked if there has been any decision made regarding the capitalization of the "divine pronouns". He received a response from Nagaraja dasa, who stated: "Yes, we're going back to the capitalization."