vee

After following this issue for the last week or so, what really concerns me is, that when I go to Srila Prabhupada's books for solace and enlightenment, what I might be getting instead, is the product of a perceived need to conform to a style of English that is predominantly geared towards sense gratification. When one changes He to he, it IS a change of content. In the mindset of most people on the planet that speak and read English, a capitilised pronoun denotes divinity. So by changing He to he most people who have never heard of the Chicago Manual Style (had you until you became inolved in this issue ?) and are new to Srila Prabhupada's books, will not grasp the subtelty of the capitalised pronouns SP used throughout his books. For 1st and 2nd and even 3rd generation devotees that understanding is there from years of seeing He rather than he, but for newcomers to his books ... it will be impossible for them to differenciate the hes when, for example, Lord Caitanya "he" is talking to lower-than-the-straw-in-the-street "he" and so on. I understand that there was a need in the early days for some editing of Srila Prabhupada's English with regard to form, after all he authorised it. But who is qualified to alter the content of his work, especially now he is no longer physically present and unable to guide us in the subtleties of the Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy. When he was writing, we are told, he would labour for hours over the choice of words ... lets not offend him by undoing that work.

so what do we all think about this latest offering from the "sun" web site ??? Minor Case or Capital Controversy? BY: DHARINI DEVI DASI Mar 15, PORTLAND, OREGON (SUN) — Srila Prabhupada’s books are hailed as scholarly because they capture the essence of the Vedas. He meticulously translated while consulting previous acaryas in order to present a faithful rendition of the original texts. A close examination of word-for-word translations of the slokas highlights the difficulty of translating into another language. Our Sanskrit pandits will agree that some words are translated liberally rather than literally in order to preserve the essential meaning. As such, content is much more important than form. Recent posts in the Sampradaya Sun illustrate a wide concern that using lower-case pronouns when referring to Radha and Krishna may be a departure from the Vedic tradition, is irreverent, and might mislead readers into an erroneous view of God as devoid of divinity. While mindful of these concerns, I would like to respectfully suggest that the philosophy in our scriptures is so rich and extensive that in comparison, the capitalization of pronouns does little to insure philosophical accuracy and reverence. The choice of words and abundant qualifiers like “the Supreme Personality of Godhead” are greatly more effective than capitalization. There are no capital letters in Sanskrit. Many languages do not use them. Our own alphabet, based on the Roman system, can be traced back to the Etruscan, Greek, Phoenician and Egyptian writing systems where throughout antiquity, only capital letters were used. Lower-case letters first appeared in the Roman alphabet in the 8th century under the patronage of Charlemagne. Therefore, ancient scriptures and texts did not differentiate divine pronouns, and capitalization rules today depend on the particular language. For example, in Swahili, capital letters are sometimes found in the middle of words. Srila Prabhupada’s books are translated into many languages where there are no capital letters. Are we to ignore their rules of grammar and somehow capitalize divine pronouns in those languages? If not, how can we argue ignoring the “mundane” rules of grammar in English? We need a consistent policy. Srila Prabhupada’s instructions are unequivocal regarding getting our books into the hands of the public so that lives may be transformed. Presentation is very important, which includes proper syntax, grammar, and vocabulary. Srila Prabhupada’s writing style, with the assistance of editors, is a vast departure from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s style, and reflects a later 20th century American English. Similarly, the last twenty years have seen tremendous changes in the English language, largely due to cultural, political and technological influences. Graduates today are accustomed to the modern rules of grammar. Students who ignore recent amendments will find corrections on their writing submissions, as I have experienced first-hand. Writers who use outdated vocabulary and grammar may not be taken seriously and their publications will be considered badly written. For almost a century, the leading authority on English grammar in the United States has been the “Chicago Manual of Style”, published by the University of Chicago. It is revised periodically with the collaboration of leading academics and professional writers from various disciplines. It is a definitive guide used by serious writers and publishers. It is only fitting that ISKCON editors consult the manual in matters of grammar to maintain the scholarly standard that Srila Prabhupada brought to his writings. Few would oppose changing the book covers to increase their appeal. Why would it be wrong to update the grammar (in a conservative and careful way) in future publications to maximize the respect our literature deserves? Meanwhile, let’s not forget that a battle between capital and minor-case pronouns is a battle over form rather than content. Both sides aim at preserving and spreading Krishna Consciousness.

very interesting information ... but a question remains ... what do we do about these violations ? just sit back and accept it ? or stand up, put our hands up and say, "we are not going to take this anymore !" ... surely we owe that to Srila Prabhupada ... these are his meditations directly inspired by Lord Sri Krsna ... NOBODY has the right to change them ... either according to copyright laws or out of respect for the spiritual master ... i dont know what else i can do besides the letter i sent to the bbt and voicing my opinion here ... may good sense prevail lest some very serious guru aparadha takes place ... hare krishna

bravo ! wise decision jn ...

i think anyone who is concerned about this issue should write to the bbt ... at least we can say we have done all there is to be done in making our voices heard.. as soon as i found out about this issue i went to iskcon.com and sent an email to them ... so far no reply ... but a part of me didnt expect one! but a part of me also could not stand by and not do anything about it... so if you havent done so already ... keep those fingers moving and stand and be counted ... obeisances and best wishes to all ... vee

From Pankaja_Dasa's previous post :- Pankaja_Dasa: "I heard recently you will make Krsna captitals 'Him' into him low letters". Jayadvaita Swami: "Please don't lose sleep over it. In all of Srila Pabhupada's books, "Krsna" will stay capitalized". ... seems like evasion of the issue to me ... very distrubing indeed. in fact its not so much the changing of the pronouns to lower case which disturbs me most ... but the mood of knowing what Srila Prbahupada meant ... who can honestly claim that ? and as one guest said "I am beginning to realise on an internal level, what a treasure Srila Prabhupada is. Understanding that his vani is nondifferent from him, I think it is sad, that due to such changes, I may in fact not be able to relish deeply Prabhupada's "pure" vani. this is the crux of the issue ... who is really qualified to make these changes ..? no matter how academically astute one may be .. this issue goes beyond those kinds of considerations. i am definitely no acadamic ... but i feel in my heart that something is not right about changing Prabhupada's words ... does it mean that if sometime down the track some style guide or other wipes out capitalisation of proper nouns altogether, as the english language changes (ultimately as we know, by the ravages of kali yuga and maya) we will then only see krsna rather than Krsna ?

my last words on the matter - for me, prabhupada's printed words, the way he approved of them when he was physically present, convey the message he wanted to convey - that "He", when we refer to Krsna is to show that "He" is not the same as "he" - to show people that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead - afterall, that is the point isn't it - of the Hare Krsna movement ? - to show the world that He is God - and not to be confused with some other "he" who may be falsley representing himself as God - and the point about giving the story away .... i find that laughable ! we are not talking about some mundane thriller here ! the quote mentioned in an earlier post about prabhupada talking about capitalising, is enough for me - a short, concise, definitive answer to a straight forward question ! if anyone thinks that by ignoring his instructions to make such changes is going to sell more books or make them more widely accepted, they may have a rude awaking sometime down the track i thought we were of the opinion that his words were transcendental - that they acted upon the heart not the brain - so lets spend our time and resources more constructively by getting the books out there the way prabhupada intended hare krishna

as i see it the problem with these conflicts .. hindu/muslim ... christian/muslim ... jew/muslim ... catholic/protestant ... et al ... is that neither side will let the past be what it is .... the past ... what happened to forgiveness ... and moving on ... see the similarities ... not the differences ... so called religion ... as oppposed to santana dhama will always divide people ... unless they are prepared to let each other worship the Supreme Lord according to their own hearts ... if someone were to draw a cartoon of Krsna ... no matter the content ... it would not affect my faith and belief ... so just let it be ... stop the blame game ... just search your own heart and move forward towards to the goal ... love of god ... or in my case Krsna prema ... i wish peace and love for everyone ...

to stonehearted ... "who cares for their sense gratification grammer and subject matter ??? prabhupada didnt ... and neither should we ...." if you read correctly you will see what i really meant was srila prabhupada didnt care for non-devotee subject matter or rules or grammer ... he wanted Krsna's name capitalised ... thats all i was saying !

Re: Hmmmm.... <HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --> "It's funny how some devotees are pro-illegal drugs, but anti-choice, when it comes to a women's right to choose". surely you realise killing another human being in the womb is hardly the same as becoming intoxicated ... i am a mother by the way and dont condone either ... and without a doubt what you are alluding to by "a womans right to choose" is simply another terminology for murder ... plain and simple ... no matter what the resons for it .. either unwanted pregnancy ... rape or whatever ... the fact is women who make that choice take away the right of the human being inside the womb.

i am outraged that the bbt has taken this decision... who cares about the chicago writing standards ... who are these rascals anyway ...??? i agree with you jn das ... what is coming next ... ???? what other changes are the bbt going to make ? as devotees and disciples of srila prabhupada we already stand apart from the rest of society ... and isn't that the point anyway ... we are tryining not to be like everybody else ... who cares for their sense gratification grammer and subject matter ??? prabhupada didnt ... and neither should we .... i think we should run a petition and get some kind of consenus from the greater devotee family ... this is not a small thing we are talking about here ... its akin to treason ... spiritual treason ... and the consequenses for iskcon are immense ... shame on you bbt ... and again, i am outraged !

bravo ... that's my point too !

your point being ????

This conversation is based on the false premise that we are muslims, hindus, christians or even human beings ... we are spirit souls ... nothing more ... nothing less ... and anything contrary to sanatan dhama is bound to cause lust, anger, greed, avarice ... the solution to any problems is to understand who we are ... who is god ... and what is the relationship .... maybe then we can all live in peace !

hare krishna .. "If an institution interfers with your bhakti then burn the institution down" i dont know about burning down the institution, cos in Prabhupadas case he said ISKCON was his body ... but as an ex-iskcon devotee i can relate to it somewhat ... while i dont blame the institution entirely for my leaving ... i certainly didnt feel protected by it in a spiritual sense when i started having my own problems of unresolved material desires ... now i live in a small seaside town in australia ... by myself ... no other devotees ... quite a change from mayapur where i spent many, many happy years ... sangha is so important but when devotees start playing the power game ... especially leaders ... the house of cards stars tumbling down ... i try to stay sane in a world gone mad by chanting as much as i can and hoping and praying for the day that Lord Caitanya will once again engage me in devotional service ... a special thanks to jn das for this forum and his great work in orissa ... he is an inspiration to me as a devotee who is outside of an institution but at the same time carrying on prabhupada's work ... and to ALL the vaisanava devotees of the Lord (no matter what institution you come from) i offer my most respectful obeisances and pray for your mercy upon this fallen conditioned soul. hari bolo urvasi devi dasi