Siddha Pranali

[muralidhar_das 0]

<h2>Siddha Pranali</h2>

 

Among those groups who call themselves Gaudiya Vaishnavas there some communities that practice a kind of religious tradition in which a guru tells a new initiate his or her "siddha identity", in order that the new initiate may practices the meditation that they are serving Sri Sri Radha Krishna in the form of a gopi or manjari, a milkmaid of Vraja. According to this system of belief, a new initiate practices the meditation that they are a manjari serving Radha Krishna under the guidance of their guru, who they also imagine to be a manjari. Followers of this practice say it is based upon the teachings of Sri Gopal Guru Goswami, a direct associate of Mahaprabhu, and his disciple Dhyanacandra Goswami.

 

Dhyanacandra Goswami wrote:<blockquote>

In meditation, before anything else, the practitioner should meditate on the manjari forms of his guru-pranali, beginning with his guru, then parama-guru, etc. Then he shall meditate on Sri Radhika and after that Sri Nandanandana Krishna.

- (Paddhati of Dhyanacandra Goswami, 344)</blockquote>

 

However, in regard to this belief system Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote:

<blockquote>Nowadays in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya some immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali); in this way they gratify the minds of their disciples as well as disclose their own foolishness and ignorance of the Vaishnava literatures.</blockquote>

 

In fact there is a situation where, generation after generation, the successive gurus in various "traditional communities" of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are giving instruction about "siddha-deha" to new initiates, with the gurus telling the disciples about their own "siddha name" and "siddha form", as well as the disciple's form and name: "you are such-and-such manjari"; but in reality these so-called gurus have no real vision of either their own real spiritual form or the spiritual body of their so-called disciples. The so-called gurus haven't realized their own real "siddha form". Nor have they attained the realized the stage of Prema (pure love). But they are initiating new disciples and telling the disciple "you are a manjari and your name is such-and-such-manjari". The practices of these people are in fact a mere imitation of the practices of Gopal Guru Goswami, Dhyanacandra Goswami and other devotees of the past who had a real and direct understanding of the transcendental form of their innermost self (swarup siddha).

 

Sri Jiva Goswami stated that a man should not meditate upon the intimate lila of Radha Govinda if he feels any masculine urges. Sri Jiva Goswami's view is that we should all show respect for the intimate pastimes of Lord Krishna within his harem, and not seek to intrude into that sacred place while our minds are contaminated by the false presumption that we are "males" who enjoy the beauty of women:

<blockquote>kintu rahasya-lila tu paurusa-vikaravad indriyaih pitr-putra-dasa-bhavais ca nopasya sviya-bhava-virodhat |

rahasyatvam ca tasyah kvacid alpamsena kvacit tu sarvamseneti jeyam ||

"These secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant."

Bhakti Sandarbha (338)</blockquote>

 

Ladies also, indeed children too - any and all devotees who have not attained a highly qualified stage of devotion - they also should not attend "lessons in rasa-lila":

<blockquote>tad etad govinda vraja vijana kantanuvacanamdadhadbhir yogyasya shravasi paramapyam na sadasi

"This confidential rasa lila topic is to be heard by qualified people who carry Govinda in their hearts, and not in a public arena."

Gopal Campu (1.23.1)</blockquote>

 

A significant aspect of the siddha-pranali doctrine practiced nowadays is the proposition that a guru will give or assign or give a spiritual body to the disciple. That is, there are followers of this siddha pranali doctrine who believe that the spiritual form of a liberated person is given to a devotee by their guru. For example, in a book about manjari swarup written by Kunjabihari das Babaji he wrote:

<blockquote>

In the Lord's abode, there are an unlimited number of forms, all suitable for rendering service to him. Every one of those forms is non-different from him, being expanded from his effulgence; each one is eternal, full of consciousness and bliss. They are the crowning, central jewels of the spiritual world - its very life. These unlimited spiritual bodies are the perfected forms of the liberated souls which are awarded to an individual, according to his taste, when he reaches the state of absolute liberation. This state is called attainment of the spiritual body. All these spiritual bodies are eternal for they exist even before the liberated souls enter them and will continue to exist ever afterward. However, prior to the entry of the liberated soul they are in an inactive state.

 

As all of the unlimited souls are servants of the Lord, each one of them has a spiritual body in the Lord's abode just suitable for rendering service to the Lord. When an individual becomes qualified for direct service to the Lord by the grace of the Goddess of Devotion, then the Supreme Lord awards him that spiritual body.

</blockquote>

According to this school of thought, a devotee must be "awarded" or "given" a spiritual body (siddha-deha) by their guru in order that they might be able to practice the meditation that they are assisting Sri Radha in the divine pastimes of the spiritual world. Thus, if some disciple has not been given a spiritual body by their guru then how can the disciple engage in the practice of raganuga bhakti? This is the reasoning of people who believe in this doctrine.

Yet it must be pointed out that there is a serious flaw in this doctrine. According to the Vedanta Sutra (4.4.1) and Sri Sanatana Goswami (Brhadbagavatamrtam, 2.2), a soul never gets given a spiritual body at any time. The spiritual body is an eternal and inseparable aspect of the individual soul, the jiva-atma. The spiritual form of the self is eternally and inseparably connected to the individual self. My spiritual body is inseparable from me and, though dormant, my spiritual body has been with me for all of eternity. When a soul desires to render service to the Lord in his spiritual form then the dormant spiritual body becomes fully manifest. This spiritual fact is clearly stated in the Vedanta Sutra and in more recent texts such as Sri Sanatana Goswami's book Brhadbhagavatamrtam. It is utterly wrong to think that a soul will ever be given a spiritual body.

 

In the eighteenth century, the siddha-pranali doctrine became the mainstream orthodox tradition in Vrindaban and other centres of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, through the influence of Jayakrishna das Babaji and other influential gurus of that time. Jayakrishna das Babaji refused to give instructions about raganuga bhakti to devotees who did not know their "guru pranali". In the Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidana we read the story of a young babaji who once approached Jayakrishna das Babaji, asking for instruction. The young babaji said: "I don't know what a guru-pranali is. I never asked my guru anything about it." Jaya Krishna das then told him, "The guru on the path of raganuga devotion always gives the guru-pranali to his disciple. The entire line of disciplic succession is found on it - the names of the guru, parama-guru, paratpara-guru and so on. With the disciplic succession, the guru also gives the siddha-pranali. In the siddha-pranali, the guru gives the identities of the disciple and all the line of guru's spiritual bodies - their colour, age, ornamentation, favoured type of service." Jayakrishna das Babaji refused to teach this young babaji about raganuga bhakti. He told him to return to his guru in Bengal and said he would only teach the young babaji after seeing a written list of all the previous gurus in the young babaji's lineage.

 

It may be supposed that Jayakrishna das Babaji was an advanced Vaishnava. But it is wrong to say that a disciple must know the "siddha-pranali" in order that the disciple might be able to engage in raganuga bhakti. This conception of raganuga sadhana, as presented by Jayakrishna das Babaji, is entirely different from the method of raganuga bhakti practiced in the time of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva and his direct associates. There is the example of Hridaya Chaitanya das, an associate of Mahaprabhu who was absorbed in the mood of sakhya-rasa (fraternal devotion), who became disturbed when he learned that his disciple Shyamananda Prabhu had begun practicing worship of Sri Sri Radha Govinda in the mood of amorous love (madhura rasa) under the direction of Sri Jiva Goswami. Following the free flow of his heart's feelings, Shyamananda accepted guidance about the practice of raganuga bhakti in madhura-rasa from Sri Jiva Goswami. By the grace of Sri Radha, Syamananda had a direct experience of his own spiritual body, in the spiritual form of a manjari, and Syamananda became admitted into the group of handmaids of Sri Radha led by Sri Rupa Manjari.

 

The proper way of advancement in the path of raganuga bhakti is described in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291, where Srila Rupa Goswami states:

<blockquote>tatra adhikari:

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like

Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja"

- they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti.</blockquote>

 

In his commentary, Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Prabhu points out that in this verse Sri Rupa Gosvami has clearly defined raganuga bhakti. Here, Sri Rupa Goswami states that those individuals who in their intrinsic nature feel an intense longing and firm attachment for service following in the wake of the feelings and sentiments of the residents of Vrindaban, with no thought or attraction for the majesties of the Godhead, are alone eligible for following in the way of raganuga bhakti. The person eligible for raganuga bhakti may spontaneously follow Sri Radha and other Gopis in madhura rati, Nanda-Yasoda and others in vatsalya rati, Sridama-Sudama and others in sakhya rati, or Citraka-Patraka and others in dasya rati.

 

Raganuga bhakti awakens spontaneously in the heart of a devotee aspiring for service in the mood of the residents of Vrindaban. Srila Rupa Goswami's instruction is clear: the desire to engage in raganuga bhakti arises spontaneously from within. It is not something learned. A disciple will learn how to engage in the sadhana (practices) of raganuga bhakti from a Guru, but the raga (love) comes from within the heart of the disciple. A truly qualified Guru can detect the devotional tendency within a disciple and provide appropriate guidance so the disciple engages in the proper practice of raganuga bhakti.

 

In the Second Wave of the Eastern Division of Sri Sri Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu, in the section dealing with Raganuga-Sadhana-Bhakti, there is a discussion about whether or not men are able to properly appreciate the mood of amorous devotion (madhura rasa). There, Srila Rupa Goswami has quoted the following verse from the Padma Purana:

<blockquote>

yatha pura maharsayah sarve dandakaranya-vasinah

drstva ramam harim tatra bhoktum-aicchan suvigraham

te sarve stritvam apannah samadbhutas ca gokule

harim samprapya kamena tato mukta bhavarnavat

In olden times when the great sages living in the Dandaka forests saw the beautiful Person of Lord Rama they desired to enjoy Him. They were all therefore born in Gokul as females and were freed forever from earthly associations of the ocean of the world by attaining the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna through supra-mundane sex-desires.

</blockquote>

The sages of Dandaka forest never learned anything about any siddha pranali lineage. Without receiving any instructions about such things they attained their next birth as gopis in Gokul. The spiritual identity they attained arose from within their own inner being. Their spiritual forms of gopis arose as a result of inner awakenment and not through any type of formal instruction of the type that was taught by Jaya Krishna das Babaji.

 

The Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.1 furthermore states: "sampadyavirbhavah svena sabdat", meaning "Because of the word "svena", it is the manifestation of he who has gone". In the commentary by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana he states as follows:

<blockquote>

The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sutra explains, "svena-sabdat" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "ninpadyate" in the verse being discussed from Chandogya Upanishad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavor because the original form already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavor to make manifest the original form of the soul.

</blockquote>

In this section of Vedanta Sutra, the topic being discussed is: "When a soul attains liberation does the soul attain a body that is different from himself, as the bodies of demigods are different from their inner self, or does the soul manifest his original identity which is not different from himself?" In Baladeva's commentary, he makes it clear that in his sutras Vyasa himself is saying that when a soul becomes liberated they realize their inner identity and see they are a purely spiritual self with an eternal body of full of spiritual consciousness and bliss (sat-chitananda).

 

Baladeva quotes the Chandogya Upanishad, which states:<blockquote>

Thus does that serene being, arising from this body, appear in its own form, as soon as it has approached the highest light, the knowledge of Self. He, in that state, is the highest person (uttama purusha). He moves about there laughing or eating, playing, and rejoicing in his mind, be it with women, carriages, or relatives, never minding that body into which he was born.

- Chandogya Upanishad 8.12.3.</blockquote>

 

In his Govinda Bhasya commentary Sri Baladev Vidyabhusan then quotes the following verse from the Padma Purana:<blockquote>

anur nityo vyapti-silas cid-anandatmakas tatha

aham artho 'vyayah saksi bhinna-rupah sanatanah

The soul is atomic, eternal, is present by consciousness everywhere in the material body, is by nature full of spiritual bliss and knowledge, has a sense of individual identity, is unchanging, is a witness within the body, and is different from the Supreme.</blockquote>

 

Srila Baladev Vidyabhusan states that the spiritual form of bliss the liberated being attains is the original form of the soul that lay dormant within when the soul was in illusion. The Vedanta Sutra tells us that the spiritual body of the liberated being is the soul's original form. This form is a form of eternity, knowledge and bliss, as is mentioned in the verse above (cid-ananda-atma). It is not that the soul attains liberation and enters into a spiritual body or a form of existence which is an external imposition, an external state of being different from the self itsef. Not at all. The liberated soul realizes the spiritual nature of one's own inner being.

 

In his commentary to verse 2.2186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Shankaracarya's verse, "mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta", which he translated as "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes". Furthermore, Srila Sanatan Gosvami then quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 "muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana", that is, "The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service." Srila Sanatan Gosvami asks himself: "If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service?" The answer: "Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah". Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

 

The statement of Srila Sanatan Goswami is clear and unambiguous. Even those souls who have never known Krishna and who are merged in the formless light of Brahman have dormant human forms.

 

Sri Sanatana Goswami also wrote in his commentary to Brhad Bhagatamrtam, verse 2.2.207:

<blockquote>

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the "merged" soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. Thus when a liberated soul gains the favor of the Supreme Lord's personal energy, his spiritual body and senses are reawakened for hearing and chanting the glories of Lord Hari and acting in other ways for the Lord's pleasure.

</blockquote>

The spiritual body and senses are reawakened, so that the soul returns to his original state of pure siddha perfection. This soul in its pure state, still merged in Brahman, can develop a mood of submission to the Absolute and begin moving towards the gates of the spiritual world. Or, awakening with a false sense of ego, the soul may descend into the world of duality, birth and death. Again and again the jiva may attain Brahman and then fall again, developing a "exploiting" mentality that drags the soul back again into samsara. But the soul who enters the kingdom of Narayana attains real immortality.

 

Elsewhere in Brhad Bhagatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Goswami gives a beautiful description of souls entering the spiritual world of Vaikuntha. The form of one's self that someone contemplates during one's life of devotional practice, the stage of sadhana bhakti, is the form you will have in your state of perfection. And that state of being of a soul is capable of further transformation and development. Srila Sanatan Goswami describes souls entering the spiritual world:

<blockquote>

Some came with associates, some with paraphernalia, and some with both associates and paraphernalia. Some merged their associates and paraphernalia in their own selves and became like penniless solitary sages plunged in the nectar of meditation. Some moment by moment manifested different wonderful and charming forms, each opulent with different and wonderful ornaments, features and pastimes. Some were humans, some monkeys, some demigods, some demons, and some sages. Others carried the marks of being initiated in the orders of varna and ashrama. Some were like Indra, Chandra or the other demigods. Some had three eyes, some four heads, and some four arms, some eight arms, and some a thousand faces. I will tell you the reason for this great wonder: How can they who taste the nectar of devotion to Lord Krishna not be handsome? The glories of Vaikuntha's residents, who are all beyond the material world of five elements, the glories of Vaikunthaloka and of Vaikuntha's hero, Narayana, cannot be described with the examples drawn from the world of five elements.

- Brhad Bhagatamrtam 2.4.35-41</blockquote>

 

In Sri Sanatan Goswami's book Brihad Bhagavatamritam he tells the story of a young boy named Gopakumar (Sarupa) who received initiation into the Krishna mantra from his Guru but no further instructions.

<blockquote>

Gopakumar said: One day a great devotee embraced me and said, "Child, if you wish the perfection desired by all, then bathe in Kesi-tirtha and take from me the mercy of the Lord of the universes."

When I had bathed, he taught me the mantra. Then, to teach the method of worship, he began to describe the Lord, the object of meditation. Overcome with love, and crying as a woman separated from her love, he suddenly fainted in ecstasy. When he became conscious again I was too frightened to ask him anything. His mind was fixed on something else. He suddenly rose and left. I never met him again. What had I obtained? What result would it bring? How should the mantra be chanted? I did not know anything. Out of respect for his words this mantra alone was on my mouth. Unnoticed by anyone, I eagerly chanted it at every moment. By the power of that great person my heart became purified as I chanted. I developed faith. Thinking of his words I decided that this mantra would lead me to the Lord of the universes. I became happy and I was dedicated to chanting.

</blockquote>

The boy then became a pilgrim searching for the Lord, learning many lessons and making progress, step by step. In this story by Sanatan Goswami, written in the same genre as Pilgrims Progress, the seeker journeys through many realms of existence until he finally attains his goal and meets with Krishna in Vrindaban. In the course of his journey Gopakumar sometimes meets his Guru and receives instructions, but at no time does he receive any instruction regarding "siddha-pranali". Sanatan Goswami has shown that for a sincere seeker everything is attained in the fullness of time if he constantly chants the holy name of Krishna. The boy Gopakumar finally gains an eternal role in Vrindaban in the form of a cowherd boy, a friend of Krishna (sakhya-rasa); but his Guru was absorbed in amorous love (madhura-rasa). In the mood of separation, his Guru would be seen "crying as a woman separated from her love". Glorifying this book, Srila Rupa Goswami stated in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (1.4.20): srimat prabhupadambhojaih sarva bhagavatamrte vyaktikrtasti gudhapi bhakti-siddhanta-madhuri - The most revered master Prabhupada Sanatan Gosvami has explicitly described the ambrosial sweetness of the philosophy of bhakti in his Brhat-Bhagavatamrta even though this bhakti philosophy (bhakti-siddhanta) is most abstruse and a mystery.

 

It is interesting to consider that because Jayakrishna das Babaji refused to give instructions about raganuga to the young Babaji who didn't know his guru-pranali, it can be supposed that if Gopakumar had come to get instruction from Jayakrishna das Babaji then he also would have been told that he was ineligible to engage in raganuga bhakti.

 

Real Gaudiya Vaishnavism is something different from what Jayakrishna das Babaji, Kunjabihari das Babaji etc. taught it to be. If we carefully study the writings of the Gaudiya Sampradaya Acharyas such as Sri Sanatan Goswami, Sri Rupa Goswami and Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, it is clear that a soul does not get given a spiritual body, or need to get given instructions about one's spiritual body (swarup). What is truly essential is that a soul should begin to chant the Name of Hari without offences. When this goal is achieved then the natural form of the self and Krishna prema (divine love for Krishna) will naturally be revealed in one's consciousness, arising as they do from within our own self. In his instructions to Sri Sanatan Goswami, the Lord, Sri Chaitanyadeva himself, said:

<blockquote>

nitya-siddha krsna prema sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi suddha citte karaye udaya

(Chaitanya Charitamrta, Madhya 22.107)

Meaning: "Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens."

</blockquote>

There is no need for discussion or further elaboration upon this point. The self evident meaning of the words of Sri Chaitanyadeva is the ultimate siddhanta of the real Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was told about his siddha-deha (siddha identity) and the siddha pranali of the lineage of Bipin Bihari Goswami when he received initiation from Bipin Bihari Goswami. We have heard from Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's statements in his writings, in regard to siddha-deha and the intimate pastimes of Radha Govinda, are his direct insights about what he was seeing in his meditation. His position is so great. So high. He did feel some regard for Bipin Bihari Goswami initially, but the relationship between them was damaged irreparably when Bipin Bihari Goswami decided to join with people who opposed the development of the Mayapur Yogapith. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur had the inspiration that the Mayapur Yogapitha really is the birthplace of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, as did his siksa-guru Srila Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaj; so when Bipin Bihari Goswami gave opposition to this inspirational insight of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and his siksa-guru, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur withdrew from the association of Bipin Bihari Goswami.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur is a nitya-siddha devotee. An eternal associate of Radha-Krishna who descended to earth to preach about pure devotion. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami had little regard for Bipin Bihari Goswami; in fact, Srila Saraswati Thakur gave real spiritual initiation (diksa) to one gentleman who had been an initiated a disciple of Bipin Bihari Goswami. Srila Saraswati Thakur taught his disciples that they should worship the surrendered Vaishnava who has dedicated his mind, body and words to the service of the Lord, and if a devotee of lower realization such as Bipin Bihari Goswami opposes a devotee of higher type like Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur then we should follow the higher devotee. Indeed, Arjuna was perplexed when he saw that he would have to fight against his family guru on the warfield of Kurukshetra, but Krishna told him to fight his guru, nevertheless.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:<blockquote>

We have to follow the spirit; otherwise after Jahnava devi, the wife of Lord Nityananda, up to Vipina Goswami, from whom Bhaktivinoda Thakura took initiation, there are so many unknown lady gurus. Through them, the mantra came to Vipina Goswami, and from him Bhaktivinoda Thakura received the mantra. We accept Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but should we count all those ladies in our disciplic succession? What was their realization?</blockquote>

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has also given us a warning in his writings that a disciple should have proper realization before engaging in any meditation upon the siddha-deha:<blockquote>

adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave

viparyaya buddhi janme saktira abhave

If one thinks of their siddha-deha without actually achieving transcendental realization their intelligence gets bewildered.

-(from Bhajana-rahasya by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur)</blockquote>

In the commentary to Bhajana-rahasya written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami he stated as follows: <blockquote>

chari sloke kramasah bhajana pakkva kara,

pancam slokete nija siddha deha vara,

ei sloke siddhadehe radhapadasraya,

arambha kariya krame unnati udaya,

chaya sloka bhajite anartha dure gela,

tabe jana siddhadehe adhikara haila,

adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave,

viparjya buddhi janme saktira abhave

-(Sri Bhajan Rahasya Rahasyer Pragbandha)

</blockquote>

By careful practice of the precepts of Sri Chaitanya presented in the first four verses of Siksastaka, gradually you acquire maturity in bhajan. After that, be eligible for achieving your realized eternal spiritual form by practising the fifth verse. Being well-established in the fifth verse, you will get the service of the Lotus Feet of Radharani by attaining the realized form. Advancement of bhajan will begin from this and will be developed. After being competent in realizing the transcendental sweet ecstatic feelings through practice of precepts given in the sixth verse, your attachment for ulterior reverse desires will be removed totally. Then actually you will be entitled to get eternal realized spiritual form. When the eight principal modes of transcendental ecstatic feelings will be revealed to you, the criterion of your attainment of the safety region is achieved. Without the manifestation of these ecstatic feelings, if any aspirant poses to get that realized state, it will be cause of disaster to him due to lack of intrinsic spiritual realization from within.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami:<blockquote>

bhavera ankura ho le vidhi ara thake na

raganuga sraddha matre jata rati haya na

When bhava, the ecstatic mood of divine love actually awakens then the need for following scriptural rules (vidhi) does not remain. However, mere faith in spontaneous devotional service (raganuga) does not produce the actual awakening of transcendental loving attachment (rati).

bhavankura samagame vaidhi bhakti thake na

rucike ratira saha kabhu eka jane na

Only when the seed of intense divine emotion sprouts forth pure bhava, only then is there no need to adhere to scriptural rules and regulations (vaidhi bhakti). One should never consider ruci (the taste for devotional service) to be the same as rati (transcendental loving attachment in devotional service).

raganuga boile i prapta rasa jane na

vidhi sodhya jane jabhu raganuga bole na

Divine rasa can never be factually attained merely by talking about spontaneous devotion (by claiming "I am a raganuga-bhakta"). A beginning student who should still be further purified by following the scriptural injunctions is never said to be on the level of performing spontaneous loving service unto the Lord.

sadhanera purve keha bhavankura paya na

jade sraddha na chadile rati kabhu haya na

No one can ever experience the sprouting of pure ecstatic emotions (bhava) without first following the regulated injunctions of the scriptures. One who does not give up faith in materialistic things can never attain the stage of spiritual attachment in devotional service.

-(from Prakrta-rasa-sata-dusani)</blockquote>

 

It is also to be remembered that Sri Rupa Goswami wrote in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu that there are people who enthusiastically engage in the practices of raganuga bhakti while having a heart that is filled with desires for selfish enjoyment or liberation. These people may experience bliss and detachment from worldly life through the practice of bhakti but they do not attain real attachment to Krishna (rati). This matter is dealt with in some detail by Sri Rupa Goswami in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (1.3.42-55; 2.3.12-14; 2.3.85-91) and in the commentaries of Sri Jiva Goswami and Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti. It is better to wait until we are pure before trying to feel the bliss of madhura-rasa in our meditation - fools rush in, where angels fear to tread.

 

Sri Rupa Goswami:<blockquote>

vimuktakilatar yair ya muktir api vimrgyate

ya krsnenatigopy asu bhajadbhyo 'pi na diyate

sa bhukti-mukti-kamatva cchuddham bhaktim akurvatam

hrdaye sambhavat yesam katham bhagavati ratih

Rati, the feeling of attraction to Krishna that is sought after by souls who have sacrificed all selfish desires, the feeling of attraction which Sri Krishna withholds in great secrecy, is not easily conferred by him even to devotees who are engaged in spiritual practices. How can there be an appearance of rati in the hearts of those who do not practice unalloyed and pure bhakti because of manifold desires for elevation and salvation, or in the hearts of those who are anxious for self-destruction by way of desiring for merging in the Absolute Brahman? (Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.3.42-3)</blockquote>

In his commentary Sri Jiva Goswami points out that here it is explicitly shown how rati cannot appear in the hearts of the aspirants for moksa, and that the signs of tears, horripilation, paleness, etc. manifest in them are no real signs of rati. The reason is that they are desirous of the fruits of devotion and salvation, and therefore it is not possible that rati in the Lord can awaken in their hearts. The defect in them is that they do not practice unalloyed bhakti, which is completely free from the tinge of fruitive karma and dry knowledge.

 

Meditation upon the siddha-deha, the perfect form of the self, is a devotional practice that only advanced devotees who are free of mundane desires should engage in. In the practice of devotional service it is best if we avoid the mistake that some people make when they engage in meditation upon confidential pastimes of Radha Govinda while still being contaminated with false ego and mundane lust.

 

Sri Jiva Goswami:<blockquote>

kintu rahasya-lila tu paurusa-vikaravad indriyaih pitr-putra-dasa-bhavais ca nopasya sviya-bhava-virodhat |

rahasyatvam ca tasyah kvacid alpamsena kvacit tu sarvamseneti jeyam ||

"These secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant."

Bhakti Sandarbha (338)</blockquote>

 

And:<blockquote>

tad etad govinda vraja vijana kantanuvacanamdadhadbhir yogyasya shravasi paramapyam na sadasi

"This confidential rasa lila topic is to be heard by qualified people who carry Govinda in their hearts, and not in a public arena."

Gopal Campu (1.23.1)</blockquote>

 

http://www.mandala.com.au/books/sixgoswamis.pdf

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhu...Thank you for posting this comprehensive essay...it helped me understand very clearly the philosophical differences between the teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and his descendants and the teachings of what is called "Traditional Gaudiya Vaisnavism".

[gHari 0]

 

Unfortunately that was more humility than I can swallow. Hopefully I can come back later when I'm thirstier.

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

GHari

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean

 

- Muralidhar

[gHari 0]

 

My feigned humility when compared with the ocean of humility in that essay became so apparent to me. Unfortunately my arrogance is not so easily displaced. Perhaps later I won't be so obstinate.

 

Thank you, Muralidhar, for a timely post. My flowery parables/jibberish are often misunderstood - my native tongue is Obtuse, and only Madmax speaks it.

 

TheVoiceCryingInTheWilderness,

 

gHari

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

This essay is the end product of several years of debate with people who say we should give up our faith in Srila Prabhupada and the philosophy he preached. I've put all the major points that prove their attacks against Srila Prabhupada are all wrong into one document: this article. Jaya Prabhupada!

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna. Reading the above gives rise to the following questions:

 

a) How do you know these persons are "so-called gurus" and are not bonafide?

 

The one and -- only -- sure way for you to be able to so

conclusively say such a thing is if Krishna were to personally tell you so.

 

b) How do you know that they have not realized their spiritual body or that of their disciples?

 

c) How do you know that they have not reached the stage of prema?

 

d) Why make such sweeping critical judgements of other vaishnavas?

 

Are we the seers?

 

Does taking the self-appointed position of judge and jury to pass judgement on them help your otherwise good arguments?

 

ys

 

govinda

 

 

[Guest guest]

muralidhar_das, thanks for the truly excellent post. Other than the issue of Sidha Pranali, are there other differences between sampradayas that label themselves as "traditional Gaudiya" vs. followers of Srila Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati? Additionally, if these traditional gurus instruct the spiritual aspirant about their sidda deha at the time of diksha, does it mean that they with-hold giving diksha until they determine that the aspirant as reached the status of being an uttama bhakta? But then again, how can one reach the status of being an uttama bhakta without getting initiation first?

Haribol!

[gHari 0]

One can conclude that the critics are bogus simply because they are "people who say we should give up our faith in Srila Prabhupada and the philosophy he preached". No words are needed. Once again mouse.

 

As for these gurus, I doubt very much that they concur with their boisterous supporters. But if they do, then they are indeed bogi-yogi too.

 

[Airicky 0]

 

Hare Krishna. Reading the above gives rise to the following questions:

 

a) How do you know these persons are "so-called gurus" and are not bonafide?

 

The one and -- only -- sure way for you to be able to so

conclusively say such a thing is if Krishna were to personally tell you so.

 

b) How do you know that they have not realized their spiritual body or that of their disciples?

 

c) How do you know that they have not reached the stage of prema?

 

d) Why make such sweeping critical judgements of other vaishnavas?

 

Are we the seers?

 

Does taking the self-appointed position of judge and jury to pass judgement on them help your otherwise good arguments?

 

ys

 

govinda

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is our example and he told us himself that by reading and studying his books very carefully we will be able to know who is true guru and teaching according to sastra, sadhu and guru.

[muralidhar_das 0]

govinda said:

==============

Hare Krishna. Reading the above gives rise to the following questions:

 

a) How do you know these persons are "so-called gurus" and are not bonafide?

 

The one and -- only -- sure way for you to be able to so

conclusively say such a thing is if Krishna were to personally tell you so.

 

b) How do you know that they have not realized their spiritual body or that of their disciples?

 

c) How do you know that they have not reached the stage of prema?

 

d) Why make such sweeping critical judgements of other vaishnavas?

 

Are we the seers?

 

Does taking the self-appointed position of judge and jury to pass judgement on them help your otherwise good arguments?

 

============

 

The point is, that the "Siddha Pranali" doctrine as is practiced nowadays by so called gurus such as Gadadhara Prana or Pitambara or Harimohana Gosvami is a concoction. Devotees at the time of Mahaprabhu did not practice that method of giving inititation, and nobody in Mahaprabhu's time said that you needed to know your siddha-deha (swarup siddhi) as a prerequisite when you begin to practice Raganuga Bhakti.

 

So if people are saying that it is necessary for a devotee to know his siddha-deha before they engage in raganuga bhakti (many babajis in Vraja say this) then they are bogus.

 

How do I know they have not reached prema? Well, here is a description of the life of one great babaji from the recent past, along with a mention of his father/guru. And it is clear from the story that the father/guru was not pure. A pure and enlightened Guru would not provide material pleasure and a position of prestige for his son, as this guru did, because a real guru knows what is right and what is wrong.

 

<blockquote>

Sri Tinkadi Gosvami (Sri Kisori-Kisorananda Baba) was born in 1906 in Manoharapur, a village in district Medinipur of West Bengal. His father was Sri Harimohana Gosvami and mother Srimati Suradhuni Devi. The family had a large number of ancestral disciples. The number of Harimohana Gosvami’s own disciples also was not small. The income from donations made by disciples was plentiful. Therefore Tinkadi Gosvami was brought up in luxury. He did not have much interest in studies. So his father stopped his education and began to introduce him to his disciples so that he might adopt gurugiri (the profession of guru) as his profession. He also married him to a girl named Sitalasundari, from whom he had a son. Sri Tinkadi Gosvami lived luxuriously. He wore spotlessly white clothes made of the finest linen and smoked hukka. The long tube of the hukka with a silver mouth-piece was always attached to his mouth. The smoke of the sweet-scented tobacco, specially got from Visnupur, was seen curling round him. He went to the homes of the disciples on palanquin. The hukka and a Brahman cook went with him. The cook followed the palanquin on foot. There was, however, a spark of bhakti in his heart, which often disturbed him and made him think of the futility of worldly life. (From the “Saints of Bengal” by O.B.L. Kapoor, Chapter XXV entitled “ Sri Tinkadi Gosvami”)

 

</blockquote>

 

We see that when he was living in his father's home the father provided him with all sorts of mundane pleasures paid for with money given by disciples. This type of behavior of the caste-goswami gurus was strongly condemned by Prabhupad Srila Saraswati Thakur. In his later life Tinkadi Gosvami, or Tin Kori Goswami, became a renunciate and lived at Radhakunda. Tinkadi Gosvami became well known for his renounced behavior. But my Guru Maharaj, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, was not impressed by the spiritual attainments of Tinkadi Gosvami. And the system Tinkori represents is a deviation from genuine Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

Govinda,

 

I did not say that a Guru could not see a disciple's spiritual form and then tell the disciple what their spiritual identity is. We know, for example, that Srila Bhatisiddhanta Sarswati Thakur told Kunja Babu, "You are Bimala Manjari".

 

The real issue is summed up in this statement by Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura:

 

<blockquote>

Nowadays in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya some immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali); in this way they gratify the minds of their disciples as well as disclose their own foolishness and ignorance of the Vaishnava literatures.

</blockquote>

 

Govinda, you asked:

 

<blockquote>

a) How do you know these persons are "so-called gurus" and are not bonafide?

b) How do you know that they have not realized their spiritual body or that of their disciples?

c) How do you know that they have not reached the stage of prema?

</blockquote>

 

I've been thinking about this, and there is a very simple answer to this:

 

Among the "traditionalist" Gaudiya Vaishnavas, we see they make a distinction between "siddha" devotees and non-siddha devotees. The non-siddha devotees are still in the stage where they are practicing devotional service, sadhana-bhakti. They are aspiring to attain perfection. Let's refer to this group of devotees as "sadhana-bhaktas". Now the "traditionalists" will admit to you that "siddha" devotees are very rare to find. They will admit to you that out of all the "traditionalist" gurus you might meet, you are likely to find only a few perfected devotees who are siddhas. A devotee in the stage of sadhana who has not entered into the transcendental world is unable truly realize the transcendental form of their own soul - if they did, they would be a "siddha" devotee. Amongst these "sadhana bhaktas" there are some who are becoming gurus and who are telling people, "I am a manjari. So are you. Your manjari name is such-and-such". But these "sadhana bhaktas" have no actual vision of their soul or their disciple's soul. They are just speaking words and perpetuating a tradition.

 

So it is all just as Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura said:

<blockquote>

immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali)

</blockquote>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is not just Kunjabihari das babaji who promotes the idea that a disciple is given a spiritual body by his guru. A follower of the late Krishnadas Babaji of Radhakunda has explained his gurus teachings in regard to the attainment by quoting the following verse by Shrila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Gosvamipada in his Chaitanya Charitamrita (Madhya lila, 22:156-157)

 

bahya antar ihara dui to sadhana; bahya sadhaka dehe kore shravaNa kirtana

mone nija siddha dehe koriya bhavana; ratri dine vraje radha-krishNera sevana

 

"Raganuga bhakti in practise (as a religious method of purification for the self as a whole in order to reach the soul's eternally perfect body, the siddha deha (Note 3) is performed both externally and internally. Externally one engages one's gross physical body in hearing and chanting Shri-Shri Radha-Krishna's names, forms, attributes, and Vraja-pastimes. Internally one engages one's subtle physical body in thinking with devotion of his orally guru-given spiritual body, performing one's verbally guru-assigned devotional service to Shri Shri Radha-Krishna in Vraja, day and night."

 

But the words "orally guru-given spiritual body" are not present in the Bengali words of Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami. Kaviraj Gosai simply says that the devotee will remember his spiritual body. HE DOESN'T SAY THE SPIRITUAL BODY WAS GURU-GIVEN. This is a mistranslation of the CC. verse of Kaviraj Gosai.

[Guest guest]

Dear Muralidhara Prabhu,

 

Thank you for reply.

 

I disagree with your criticism of gurus who give siddha-pranali.

 

You ascribe the following statement to Srila Saraswati Thakur (although you don't give a reference for it):

 

 

" Nowadays in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya some immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali); in this way they gratify the minds of their disciples as well as disclose their own

foolishness and ignorance of the Vaishnava literatures."

 

 

Thakur Bhaktivinode recieved siddha-pranali, Narottam Das Thakur and other acaryas gave it. In light of that fact, I would consider the above statement (taking the stance that it was actually written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, which I don't find unlikely) to be based on time, place, and circumstance and clearly not appropriate in all cases.

 

I wouldn't want to use it (or he -- Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat Thakura Prabhupada) as a club to beat people on the head for the "crime" of belonging to a different paribar -- one that practices siddha-pranali in its bhajan.

 

After the above paragraph comes the below quoted section. It makes us wonder if it was written by Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada or by you Murlidhar Prabhu (you didn't use quotation marks or format the above in any special way to show us where it started or stopped).

 

From the writing and the jab about "traditional communities", it seems clear that it was written by Murlidhar Prabhu.

 

You state:

 

"In fact there is a situation where, generation after generation, the Gaudiya Vaishnavas are giving instruction about "siddha-deha" to new initiates, with the gurus telling the disciples about their own "siddha name" and

"siddha form", as well as the disciple's form and name: "you are such-and-such manjari"; but in reality these so-called gurus have no real vision of either their own real spiritual form or the spiritual body of their so-called disciples. The so-called gurus haven't realized their own real "siddha form". Nor have they attained the realized the stage of Prema (pure love)."

 

 

 

We have our bhajan-pranali and others have theirs. What's the problem? There are many different bhajan-pranalis in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Not everyone practices siddha-pranali. Nor do all of the gurus who have it find it appropriate to give to all of their disciples.

 

Siddha-pranali is not clearly mentioned anywhere in the writings of the Six Goswamis. If its practice is

so essential then it would be reasonable to expect to find it described therein. However, it's also a fact that some, like Thakur Bhaktivinode, Jagannath Das Babaji and others did practice it.

 

I don't see how criticizing other vaishnavas and their gurus is going to help either our bhajan or our dhara. These kind of presentations have to be made very, very carefully. If there is any small mistake, if any little

thing can be shown to not be true or if something therein comes across as the authors bias, it will spoil the whole proposition and may become a cause for others to fault our line and our guru-janas.

 

Aside from that, we are taking a grave risk of committing aparadha to some of the many exalted saints of the past and present who have practiced or may be practicing this

system of bhajan.

 

In short, such mentality reeks of fanaticism and mundane

sectarianism. I don't find within it the mellow of Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

ys

 

govinda

 

ps: Didn't Jayakrishna Das baba live in the 1600s?

[muralidhar_das 0]

The quote:

<blockquote>

Nowadays in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya some immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali); in this way they gratify the minds of their disciples as well as disclose their own

foolishness and ignorance of the Vaishnava literatures

<blockquote>

 

- this is in Srila Saraswati Thakur's book 'Brahmanas and Vaishnavas'.

[muralidhar_das 0]

You state:

 

"In fact there is a situation where, generation after generation, the Gaudiya Vaishnavas are giving instruction about "siddha-deha" to new initiates, with the gurus telling the disciples about their own "siddha name" and

"siddha form", as well as the disciple's form and name: "you are such-and-such manjari"; but in reality these so-called gurus have no real vision of either their own real spiritual form or the spiritual body of their so-called disciples. The so-called gurus haven't realized their own real "siddha form". Nor have they attained the realized the stage of Prema (pure love)."

 

==============

 

As I said previously, a devotee who has attained realzation of "swarup siddhi" will be able tell someone else about their spiritual name and form. They know it - they can describe and explain it. We accept that Srila Saraswati Thakur knew his swarup siddhi and that he could tell a disciple, such as Kunjada, "You are Bimala Manjari". So the proposition that a Guru can give instruction of this type is not in and of itself wrong.

 

What is wrong is that a junior (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava who is not a siddha and who has become a guru will go and tell a disciple "you are such-and-such manjari", when in fact that (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava acting as a Guru has no REAL PERCEPTION of his disciple's siddha-deha.

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

In regard to sectarianism, my friend Govinda, it may come as something of a shock to you but it is a fact that many of these "Traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas" do not even accept that devotees of ISKCON or the Gaudiya Math are actually Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

You also mentioned Srila Narottama das Thakur. This also may shock you, my friend, but there are some "paribars" where devotees maintain the belief that only a person born in a family of "traditional" brahmins should become a Guru. Since Srila Narottama das Thakur was not born in a brahmin family and he became a guru with brahmanas as his disciples ...

 

I leave it to you to finish the sentence above.

 

But what I will say is this. Syamananda Thakur was from a sudra family... and Mahaprabhu said: kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya, yei krishna tattva vetta sei guru haya (Anyone, regardless of caste, may become a guru if he knows Krishna in truth.)

 

Anyway, we of course know that not all "traditionalists" behave in the same way towards Srila Saraswati Thakur and his descendents. My siksa-guru, Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj has very intimate relationships with numerous "traditionalist" gurus and devotees in Orissa, Bengal and Vraja. The Vrajabasi sevaks and Acharyas at Radha Damodara, Radha Syamasundara and other temples are his intimate friends. Indeed, Krishna Ballabha Vrajabasi (living at Radha Syamasundara compound) arranged for Srila Govinda Maharaj to purchase the old (dilapidated) temple of Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj which adjoins Radha-Syamsundara Mandir, and that temple has now been renovated and opened up as new branch temple of SCSMath. Without having an excellent relationship with these Vrajavasi Vaishnavas, Srila Govinda Maharaj could not have got that temple. So I think this shows that some "traditionalists" have excellent relations with some followers of Srila Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada.

 

Also, it is a bit extreme to say that someone is making this "siddha pranali" issue a club to beat people on the head with. The simple points I wanted to make are that the evidence clearly shows 1) nobody ever gets given a spiritual body 2) you don't need to know about siddha-pranali in order to engage in raganuga bhakti 2) you don't need to be told about your siddha-deha, since it will arise from within when you develop the proper mood of devotion.

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

Didn't Jayakrishna Das baba live in the 1600s?

--------------------

 

He lived after Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura (eighteenth-century)

 

[Guest guest]

VilasaKunja.com is a website devoted to trad Gaudiya Vaisnavism, most of the members seem to be followers of Srila Ananta dasa Babaji. It's a very mellow page; Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada are accepted as genuine, ISKCON people are welcomed and respected.

[Guest guest]

Murlidhara you quoted this verse a few times

 

 

kintu rahasya-lila tu paurusa-vikaravad indriyaih pitr-putra-dasa-bhavais ca nopasya sviya-bhava-virodhat | rahasyatvam ca tasyah kvacid alpamsena kvacit tu sarvamseneti jeyam ||

 

"These secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant."Bhakti Sandarbha (338)

 

 

 

The translation of that verse in the version which I have of Bhakti Sandarbha is very different then the above translation.

 

Here it is.

 

 

The glory of devotional service is also revealed in the following passage of Srimad Bhagavatam (10.7.1), which has already been quoted in Sri Krsna-sandarbha:

 

"King Pariksit said: My lord, Sukadeva Gosvami, all the various activities exhibited by the incarnations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are certainly pleasing to the ear and to the mind. Simply by one's hearing of these activities, the dirty things in one's mind immediately vanish. Generally we are reluctant to hear about the activities of the Lord, but Krsna's childhood activities are so attractive that they are automatically pleasing to the mind and ear. Thus one's attachment for hearing about material things, which is the root cause of material existence, vanishes, and one gradually develops devotional service to the Supreme Lord, attachment for Him, and friendship with devotees who give us the contribution of Krsna consciousness. If you think it fit, kindly speak about those activities of the Lord."*

 

The Lord's best pastimes are those in Gokula such as His pastime of the rasa dance with the gopis. This is also confirmed by the following words (Srimad Bhagavatam 10.33.39):

 

3 "Anyone who faithfully hears or describes the Lord's playful affairs with the young gopis of Vrndavana will attain the Lord's pure devotional service. Thus he will quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart."*

 

4 Here the word "ca" means "others also" and "atha" means "or". Thus the words "srnuyad atha varnayet" means "hears or describes". Thus one meditates on the Lord's pastimes or perceives them in other ways. "Param" means "nothing is better than this", "hrd-rogam" means "one is quickly cured of lust and other vices in the heart". In this way it is proved that the worship of Lord Krsna as He enjoys pastimes with His most beloved Sri Radha is the highest form of worship.

 

However, these pastimes are very confidential. One should not think these pastimes are like the pastimes of human beings with material senses and material relations of father, sons, servants and the like. Such an idea contradicts the true situation. Such an idea will become an impediment to one's spiritual progress. In one sense, some parts of these pastimes are especially confidential. In another sense, all of these pastimes are very confidential. In this way it should be understood. This verse was spoken by Srila Sukadeva Gosvami.

 

 

I think the above translation is from Kusakratha Das. Can you give a word for word translation for the verse you quoted? The two versions are totally different in wording and meaning.

[Guest guest]

Guest you wrote:

 

 

VilasaKunja.com is a website devoted to trad Gaudiya Vaisnavism, most of the members seem to be followers of Srila Ananta dasa Babaji. It's a very mellow page; Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada are accepted as genuine, ISKCON people are welcomed and respected.

 

 

That site is run by Madhavanada Das who has repeatedly insulted and demeaned Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and numerous other Gaudiya acaryas and their teachings. He considers their teachings to be bogus and has made it his business for years now to broadcast such views. Why do you think he has changed his views?

[muralidhar_das 0]

Shiva, I believe the translation Kusakratha Prabhu did was done very quickly. He is an exalted devotee, but in those translations of his I have seen some glaring errors.

 

In regard to Madhavananda, below is a memorable quote of Madhavananda dasa, the moderator of the now defunct Gaudiya Discussions web site.

 

=========================

 

Gaudiya Discussions Our Principles and Guidelines

 

> Gaudiya Discussions > OTHER DISCUSSIONS > COMMUNITY, MODERATION AND FEEDBACK

 

> What is a traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava?, Clarification of the term

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Madhava

post Feb 20 2005, 04:54 AM

Post #1

 

Traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas are defined as the main target audience of Gaudiya Discussions. There is a need to clarify the exact meaning of the term in the context of this website to avoid misunderstandings.

 

Traditional in the definition of the target audience of of Gaudiya Discussions refers to devotees who have received diksha and are engaged in the sadhana-practices taught in one of the many unbroken diksha-paramparas (disciplic successions traced through mantra-initiation) traced back to the companions of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, such as Nityananda Prabhu, Advaita Prabhu, Gadadhar Pandit, Lokanath Goswami, Gopala Bhatta Goswami and Gopala Guru Goswami.

 

A traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava may or may not cook traditional Indian food, play traditional Indian instruments or adopt traditional Indian gender roles. Social traditions are beyond the scope of the definition here. The word traditional has been selected in favor of other alternatives, such as orthodox or classical, for lack of a better term. The word orthodox is misleading as (1) it implies that there is a particular, single orthodoxy that is followed, which is by no means the case in the vast plurality of our tradition, and (2) among traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas, there is also much disagreement over what exactly constitutes an orthodox view on some issues. The word classical, while being a good alternative, is not as inclusive a word as traditional.

 

The division into traditional and non-traditional is made in particular with ISKCON and Gaudiya Matha in mind. We do not regard them as being a part of traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism, given the fact that Gaudiya Matha's founder, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, was very explicit in his desire to break off from most of the existing traditions, for all practical purposes forming a new kind of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. While we respect his reform and innovations, we may disagree on several of its aspects, and therefore feel it as being essentially outside the scope of this forum.

 

This post is really only an announcement, not an attempt to start a discussion on the topic. It is therefore not open to replies.

 

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this link here is another classic quote from Madhavananda:

 

Madhava said:

Bhaktivinoda is a controversial teacher in many respects. He is definitely not in the mainstream tradition.

[Guest guest]

I haven't really encountered the Trad GV closely teaching before; it's always just been referred to as "sahajiyaism" in ISKCON.

 

My point was that I clearly identified myself with Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON when registering on the Vilasa Kunja page and was not greeted with any type of propaganda regarding "bogusness"; rather, I was welcomed by Mahhavananda das and invited to take part in the ongoing discussions there. Srila Prabhupada's books are listed there as bonafide reading. The description of their tradition clearly identifiedsit as as a different branch of Vaisnavism than that of the Gaudiya Matha and did refer to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's movement as a non-traditional and evangelical offshoot, but I've seen nothing on there that could be considered offensive...even from people who moved on from ISKCON for reasons other than philosophical.

 

Personally, I accept Srila Bhaktisiddanta and Srila Prabhupada's conclusions regarding the nature of the jiva and eternal spiritual identity, but see the Vilasa Kunja site as an opportunity to learn about a another philosophical aspect of our tradition.

[Guest guest]

Muralidhar prabhu, Why read too much into Madhava's clarification re the target audience of his defunct forum-GD and put words "heresy" into his mouth?

 

Madhava in his forum said:

"While we respect his reform and innovations, we may disagree on several of its aspects, and therefore feel it as being essentially outside the scope of this forum.

This post is really only an announcement, not an attempt to start a discussion on the topic. It is therefore not open to replies."

 

What is wrong with that? That sounded ethical enough!

 

Which brings us to the point: What strategy should one Vaishnava group adopt in propagating their philosophies/practices? Do we think we can further our cause by criticizing the methods of bhajans of other groups? Don't you think a person from the outside looking in into the world of Gaudiya-vaishanvism would find us a bunch of argumentative, always prone to infighting people?

 

And to Shiva , my take:

 

I do not consider myself a potential recruit of Madhava, but I am a regular follower of Madhava's forum and I gain a broader perspective of the world of Vaishnavism there, I believe his forums were put up to enhance their bhajans among themselves.

 

If one is affected by their contrary views, consider this:

firstly it was not set up for you,

secondly you can butt out immediately if you don't like what you are reading.

 

Why are you there in the first place?

 

Hare Krishna

Jaya Sri Radha-Vallabah

 

Myrla

[muralidhar_das 0]

If you want to know what Madhavananda and co. really think about ISKCON, the Gaudiya Math and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, take a look at this old thread on this Audarya forum.

 

Start with JNDas's summary at the end of the page.