Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 ...look at my quotes...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: The Jews used to kill and offer animals, as the Muslims still do Reply: That went on in the Vedic tradition and some Hindus still do serve Kali by sacrificing goats and chickens… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 The śāstras of the yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasonings, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable. ---------- The more advanced people consider the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran unacceptable. But for some less advanced people who are meat-eaters these books are considered to be scriptures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Exactly! - 'not for us' - some texts/information within ancient writings and scriptures are related to things in bygone eras - just like the information in Bhagavad Gita - the original listener heard the same Gita in a different capacity than we do - we know that Krishna is not admonishing us to fight in the same fashion He was instructing Arjuna - however - some might read various passages in Gita and come to the wrong conclusion that they too can act on Krishna's Gita message - in the same manner which Arjuna did. One thing we are told about by Srila Prabhupada is the time and circumstances understanding of a thing - without that perspective how can we understand any controversial statements in any scriptures? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Ah there it is - that one text [C.C., Adi, 17.169] - you are fixated on this one point as the all in all of Prabhupada's statements - again I dealt with this point in the origins of satan thread on 08/01/05 @ 01:57 AM. You can read it there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 ...yah yah yah...if you insist... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Don said: in my humble opinion - God is saying in this text that - He is Krishna - He adds: And God said ‘moreover’ unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham… --------------- Well, here is what the God of Abraham has to say for himself: --------------- Yahweh said: Thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee - Deut 28.17 --------------- He is the God of Abraham and the hater of the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. But the strange thing is this: even though the God of Abraham told the Israelites to kill all the Hittites the Hittites still survived this genocide. Maybe the God of the Hittites was a greater god than the god of Abraham! Guess what? The Hittites were devoted to the Vedic Gods: Indra, Mitra, Varuna etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Don Muntean: show us just ONE reference in any of the books of Srila Prabhupada where God condones GENOCIDE or PERSECUTION of people who practice a different religion? Your old testament Bible is full of it. Your religion is different from ours and we don't like your religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Whatever you want to think is your business - I just know that if all this stuff you're ranting on was of major importance Srila Prabhupada would have never mentioned the points I've quoted that he does mention - so think what you want and thanks for showing the world that kali yuga is an issue for us - as much as any other... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: The Hittites were devoted to the Vedic Gods: Indra, Mitra, Varuna etc Reply: Did they offer animals and humans in sacrfifices to these vedic style gods? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Did Vishnu cooperate in the sacrifice mentioned in the quote from Bhagavatam 9.7.21? We know that to sacrifice anything to the demigods - it must be offered through Vishnu - and what is the 'Name of God' in this regard - it's "yajna"- as noted in the word for word translation - "by sacrificing a man in the yajna...[he] pleased all the demigods" - so there it is - a case can be made that God took part in that incident? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 There is a difference between what Sri Chaitanya taught and what the Bible says. On a basic level there are some points in common but when we delve into Krishna Consciousness more deeply we find that Krishna Consciousness gives us an entirely different world-view from the Bible. People who come to this web site are, primarily, interested in Krishna. Spiritual Discussions, yes, but with a focus on what Krishna and Mahaprabhu taught. Krishna said the jiva soul is immortal and beginningless. The Bible presents a different philosophy - souls are created by God. People who believe in the Bible can think as they like - they are free to believe in the Bible. But then why is it that this site that used to be focused on discussions about Krishna has recently degenerated into a "bible" and "israel" discussion web site? Krishna said: man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru mam evaisyasi satyam te pratijane priyo 'si me "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend" (Bhagavad-gita 18.65). Syamasundara Krishna said this. And as Krishna says we should meditate on HIS form, HIS name etc: "I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, with blooming eyes like lotus petals with head decked with peacock's feather, with the figure of beauty tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and His unique loveliness charming millions of Cupids." Yahweh, however, is a different personality altogether. Yahweh says: Thou shalt utterly destroy the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Do as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. - Deut 28.17 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 <blockquote> Don Muntean: Did Vishnu cooperate in the sacrifice mentioned in the quote from Bhagavatam 9.7.21? We know that to sacrifice anything to the demigods - it must be offered through Vishnu - and what is the 'Name of God' in this regard - it's "yajna"- as noted in the word for word translation - "by sacrificing a man in the yajna...[he] pleased all the demigods" - so there it is - a case can be made that God took part in that incident?</blockquote> This is offensive. And untrue. Sacrifices to Kali etc can be made without offering things through Vishnu. Indeed "Yajna" doesn't always mean Visnu - irregardless of what the ISKCON "word for word translation" says. Yajna can be offered to Kali, Shiva, Varuna, etc. or to Lord Yajneshwara Himself. Visnu is a totally transcendent Being and He isn't contaminated by the skullduggery of meat eating priests and kings. Previously, Don Muntean, you asserted that in his books Srila Prabhupada had this sort of opinion about non devotees:<blockquote> "Essentially ... nondevotees are described as being demoniac and despite whatever ‘good’ material qualification one has - if he doesn’t surrender to Krishna he is described as a rascal."</blockquote> Now you suggest that Vishnu was "cooperating" in human sacrifice rituals. This type of distortion of the statements in the scriptures is outrageous. The point of view you assert is nothing more than pure speculation. Mental speculation, Prabhupada used to say. What you say is a very distorted view of things. A very distorted view it is, in fact. Krishna is Visnu and Krishna said that people should worship Govardhana - not the gods such as Indra. But if people worship other gods then through those gods Krishna will give gifts to them - the rewards they seek. That is all. Vishnu is transcendental to the mundane world and he doesn't like the fact that humans do so many bad things, such as human or animal sacrifices. But then He does tolerate it all! Sri Govinda the cowherd is kind and He is wonderful and he has never condoned or encouraged genocide! Only a lesser god, a demigod such as Yahweh or one of the gods of Olympus, only they would do that. Govinda Jaya Jaya Gopala Jaya Jaya! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: This type of distortion of the statements in the scriptures is outrageous. Reply: No more so than your distortions - and as for your issue with the sacrifice issue - that's the word that is used and heck did we see Vishnu stop the sacrifice? I made the point to make a point and your convoluted understandings do not let you see anything that balks at your petty exclusivity conclusions. You are not an follower of Prabhupada and I am so what can we discuss if you are to be dismissive at every turn? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Why do you <big>a nameless guest</big> have to post my name - "Don Muntean" - so many times in one posting? O brahmanas, the incarnations of the Lord are innumerable, like rivulets flowing from inexhaustible sources of water. …Sri Prahlada Maharaja said in his prayer, “My Lord, You manifest as many incarnations as there are species of life, namely the aquatics, the vegetables, the reptiles, the birds, the beasts, the men, the demigods, etc., just for the maintenance of the faithful and the annihilation of the unfaithful… [sB 1.3.26, with purport] Not all incarnations are of the same mellow – for example – the mood of Lord Narasinghadeva is different than the mood of Lord Krishna or Lord Chaitanya. Who are you to place your limitations on the nature of God as it appears in different times and circumstances – who are you to say that God is limited to the Vedic tradition… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 ...uhm this thread is called "religions of man" Are you going to present your postings with some sort of name at some point here? You have all this ferver to comment but how it avails you to do it from the shadows - who are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Did you miss the quotes like: …On the other hand, those who are nondevotees have no good qualifications whatsoever, however they may be materially advanced… [sB 1.11. 19, PURPORT] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 What qualifies you to call yourself a "follower of Prabhupada"? Did you ever meet him? Did you take initiation from him? Did you even take initiation from one of his disciples? What makes you so certain that your interpretation of Prabhupada's writings is correct? What senior Vaishnava can you think of who will approve of this statement of yours: "in the entire Vani of Srila Prabhupada - people who do not surrender to Krishna are described in less than praiseworthy terms... Essentially though nondevotees are described as being demoniac and despite whatever ‘good’ material qualification one has - if he doesn’t surrender to Krishna he is described as a rascal." Do you believe any ISKCON Guru would support this statement of yours? Krishna Consciousness is not Judaism. But you just don't get it, do you? The Bible is not a sattvic shastra. It is a scripture of the meat eaters. Prabhupada said that (but you don't listen to him) Where is JNDas when we need him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 The actual words from SB 9.7.21 are: "purusa-medhena - by sacrificing a man in the yajna" We know that "medhena" means ritual or ritual sacrifice so - what does 'Purusa' mean here? Yajna? Vishnu? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Ok you go and wallow in your old boys club mentality instead of engaging in real discussions... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Ok one more time - here are only a few quotes that speak to this issue: …a person who is not so transcendentally situated has no good qualifications… [bG 2.55, purport] …On the other hand, those who are nondevotees have no good qualifications whatsoever, however they may be materially advanced… [sB 1.11. 19, PURPORT] Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life. [bG 16.19] …As far as the atheistic are concerned, it is not necessary for the Supreme Lord to appear as He is to destroy them, as He did with the demons Ravana and Kamsa. The Lord has many agents who are quite competent to vanquish demons.… [bG 4.8, purport] Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me. [bG 7.15] “Even though one may have gone to the other side of all the Vedas, and even though one is well versed in all the revealed scriptures, if one is not a devotee of the Supreme Lord, he must be considered the lowest of mankind.” (Garuda Purana) [sB 2.9.36, purport] So what is the point of those quotes? Who are you and what makes your interpretations correct oh 'nameless guest' - can you put your own qualifications out here to back-up your conclusions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 SB 11.2.44: Mahārāja Nimi said: Now please tell me in greater detail about the devotees of the Supreme Lord. What are the natural symptoms by which I can distinguish between the most advanced devotees, those on the middle level and those who are neophytes? What are the typical religious activities of a Vaiṣṇava, and how does he speak? Specifically, please describe those symptoms and characteristics by which Vaiṣṇavas become dear to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. SB 11.2.45: Śrī Havir said: The most advanced devotee sees within everything the soul of all souls, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Consequently he sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord and understands that everything that exists is eternally situated within the Lord. SB 11.2.46: An intermediate or second-class devotee, called madhyama-adhikārī, offers his love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is a sincere friend to all the devotees of the Lord, shows mercy to ignorant people who are innocent and disregards those who are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. SB 11.2.47: A devotee who faithfully engages in the worship of the Deity in the temple but does not behave properly toward other devotees or people in general is called a prākṛta-bhakta, a materialistic devotee, and is considered to be in the lowest position. ------- which stage are you in Don? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: Mahārāja - Vaiṣṇavas - Śrī - Kṛṣṇa - adhikārī - kṛta Reply: Looks like a hasty copy-and-paste - you take no time to create a name/profile and you take even less to present your quotes/information in a readable and proper form - the old saying goes 'if it ain't worth your time it certainly ain't worth mine' - oh well. Quote: which stage are you in Don? Reply: Well we've gone over this one in the Origins of Satan thread as well - read starting at 12/24/05 @ 07:29 AM - you can get your information there - of course we still don't know anything about YOU and your qualifications to interpret - maybe you're just an outsider here to create these contentions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 4, 2006 Bhakta Don, You are right when you say that Srila Prabhupada said nondevotees have no good qualifications whatsoever. So what do you think? Are meat eating Jews, Christians and Muslims nondevotees or devotees? Would you agree that Jews, Christians and Muslims have no good qualifications whatsoever? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhakta Don Muntean 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2006 They are devotees and they are fallen as Srila Prabhuapda explains - it's not the fault of the path it's the fault of the followers and the jaded interpretations - and if we are to help people we have to approach the mass of them on their levels - the masses are not going to convert to K.C. so what is the next best thing to preach to them? Srila Prabhupada said often that he wasn't trying to convert he was trying to get people to see the truths in their scriptures and to follow them. To say that they are fallen though isn't an insult as most of us are fallen in one capacity or another - right? Quote: Would you agree that Jews, Christians and Muslims have no good qualifications whatsoever? Reply: No I wouldn't agree at all. Prabhupada spoke of the innocent masses and in that regard not all are demons - but the points about not surrendering to God - in the end result one is a rascal if he fails to do so. The point is - one is able to do so in any condition... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
