religions of man

[mahak 0]

RELIGIONS OF MAN

 

(an excerpt from The Architect and the Policeman by mahaksadasa - http://www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/anp.html)

 

The world of TIME is governed by RELIGION. Tribal gods in charge of seculars are subserviant to the illusioned, are placed on banners of war to kill the infidels, over and over, until TIME gobbles the people and their gods up in one fell swoop.

 

What brings this issue up, I was engaged in conversation of spiritual nature, casually at work as usual, and the other end of the conversation was denying life outside our realm of existance. As he was of Cristian bent, I reminded him of Genesis verification of extraterrestrials in chapter six, the ET's after earth women chapter. This kind of worked on him, and he accepted that beings with wills of their own exist outside of the earth plain, and also verified that God is not impotent and has abilities to have many, many sons, not just the popular belief that He only has one.

 

Under normal circumstances, such a coup in preaching exercise would be a source of pleasure to the philosophy victor, yet I was quite disturbed at what transpired. I grabbed the book called the bible, and read the story up to and following the above citation, and came away with the bitter taste of a philosophy systematically wracked with Mayavada garbage by the acts of man's interpretation. The book called the bible is filled with tribal religious nonsense, a religion of demigods not at all transcendental to Samsara (birth, old age, disease, and death) cycle. The story of Noah is not a story of sweet pastimes of my Lord, it is a story of an angry demigod prone to mistakes, regretting his own actions of creation. By definition, the gods spoken of are NOT all-attractive, not to the point of Narayana, not even to the point of Mahajana demigods like Lord Brahma and Sri Nataraja. The old testament is rather a story of UFO captains', Pharaohs' and shamans' manipulation of the people, in other words, agents of the forgetfulness necessary to continue the temporary creation. The religions that have accepted these tribal gods as their worshipable entities have no value whatsoever to serve humanity's best interests.

 

Yet these false doctrines rule the world. Regardless of their lofty proposals of eternal bliss, the goals are to latch onto the hierarchial system, pledge allegiance, and wage war on infidels. We do not need further example to verify this fact, we drown daily in the result of such materialism, and death is not moving away from any of us. Srila Prabhupada is the maintainer of the torchlight of reality, and the darkness of illusion is unable to keep grip in the presence of His teachings. Nirvisesa sunyavadi, he drives away all false ideas proposed by those giving raksasa godheads.

 

What is this, mahaksadasa, the bible-bangin' exile dissin' the bible? Has he finally given up all his Jesus ideas? Quite the contrary, for Lord Jesus Christ is just as strong in His service to His Supreme Father, he dissed the Sanhedran, he shows the flaws in Pharasee ideas of psuedo-religiosity, shows us all that his Father resides in the heart and is accessable by unalloyed service attitude. He was assassinated by the religions of man of his time. His teachings, however, have been adopted in a perverted and external way by those wishing the exploitable neophyte ill, needing to steal the power of religious fervor to maintain control, to engage their congregations in satisfaction of the desires, not of the Lord, but the mundane desires of the hierarchial leadership of the tribal system. Any breaks away are called schisms, true teachers are known as heretics, and escapees from the clutches of the group are known as infidels, worthy of scorn and ridicule, up to the point of active warfare.

 

I, myself, do not care for any of these religions, because my guru-maharaja warns of the impotency and waste of time in dancing with such danger. The bible can be a good read, but not without direction of a bonafide spiritual master, a paramahansa, who can show the shaff from the grain. If one who dabbles in bible stuff, which, as described above, may be somewhat helpful in preaching work geared toward adherants, does not allow paramahansa to show the shaff, such dabbling could amount to spiritual suicide. I have seen it, I have read it on the internet, those who fall prey to "comparative religious study". This elephant Vaisnava aparadha, considering tribal god worship to be anywhere near the Sanatana dharma of Bhakti yoga, is so easy to commit, so one should be very careful in his(her) studies. This aparadha is also committed in the act of watering down Srila Prabhupada's gifts to be acceptable to the masses wanting religion. He did not do it, his FOLLOWERS do not do it either. Despite their pledges of loyalty to keep the acronym (ISKCON) alive, some desparately attempt artificial concocted solutions to their own misunderstandings.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly states that he is ISKCON, but he is not a material acronym, rather the embodiment of sanatana-dharma, the eternal function of loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Vaisnava Acarya approves of disciples' guru puja, but such puja(worship) is as dearmost servant, not Visnu-tattva, not artificially exhalted to the position of a tribal god, not as commander-in-chief to a band of cannibals ready to live their raksasa lives as agents of the killing fields of party spirit sectarianism. The biblical compilations, (by the way, for the bangers out there who think that it is summum bonum, is only 15% intact, many books thrown away for political reasons through the centuries of misrepresentation), should be seen as an example of how the pure message of Lord Jesus Christ turns poisonous by touching lips of serpants.

[Guest guest]

Haribol. I bump this thread to discuss the fallicy of religion in this age. Srila Prabhupada often says that irreligion is disguised as religion in this age. It is an evident truth, the mere fact that all religions craSH INTO THE OBLIVION OF HISTORY INDICATE THAT THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL VALUE, and Krsna tells arjuna to just abandon all varieties of such.

 

The reason that discussions between christians and vaisnavas alweays turn sour is because both groups fail to abandon mundane religiosity for the sake of intelligent discussion of spiritual matters. We just swear allegiance to out god of our tribe, and declare war on other tribes and other gods. But this is horrendous misunderstanding of the factual nature of spoiritual life. God is One, and is the self-same Lord of all religions. Of course, there are philosophies that do not indicate God at all, and these are separated from this discussion. But actually, there should be a unity of all those who accept God as the Supreme Lord who has no competitor. Unfortunately, mundane religions have a tendency to set up a competition between god and an anti-god, devil, satan, but just the mer4e fact that these competitions have been spoken of means a certain faithlessness exists to begin with. So, these types can, too, be separated, because the god is limited, not omnnipotent nor omnescient.

 

So, I dont have trouble with those who love Lord Jesus and accept Him as their personal savior. Though I may be of strong Vaisnava backgropund as an initiated disciple of His Diving Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, I do not reject the unity I have with my true christian brothers and sisters, not do they reject me, knowing that Srila Prabhupada ios an authorized representative who does not deviate from the real mission of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Cultures and religious systems have no bearing on the authenticity of Self (as well as God) Realization as it descends from the spiritual world. The true christian who actually follows the pure message of the Son of Man is being advised to do so from Sri Chaitya Gurudeva, the ever present Lord in the Heart, and thisw is confirmed over and over again by both the Vaisnava acaryas from the Gaudiya Sampr5adaya as well as the actual teachings of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Quote:

 

The book called the bible is filled with tribal religious nonsense, a religion of demigods not at all transcendental to Samsara (birth, old age, disease, and death) cycle. The story of Noah is not a story of sweet pastimes of my Lord, it is a story of an angry demigod prone to mistakes, regretting his own actions of creation. By definition, the gods spoken of are NOT all-attractive, not to the point of Narayana, not even to the point of Mahajana demigods like Lord Brahma and Sri Nataraja. The old testament is rather a story of UFO captains', Pharaohs' and shamans' manipulation of the people, in other words, agents of the forgetfulness necessary to continue the temporary creation. The religions that have accepted these tribal gods as their worshipable entities have no value whatsoever to serve humanity's best interests.

 

Reply:

 

You are casting aspersion on God in the other faiths - the God of the Old Testement is not some tribal God.

 

Some outsiders say that Krishna is a latter development - that He is just another god in the 330 million gods of the hindu pantheon.

 

Indeed even in the religion of hinduism we see many different faiths and - not all of them are nice from the outsiders point of view - so that's it isn't it - all in the way you see it.

 

As for modern ISKCON - it seems to be more and more just like another 'dry' faith group - so - is it the groups that are defective or - is it a sypmtom of Kali yuga?

 

There is a great deal of truths in the biblical tradition - Srila Prabhupada confirms it and - that is good enough for me!

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

Yahweh is not the god of all people. He is only the god of "his chosen people". Yahweh is the god of abraham and moses and the israelites. But then Yahweh is an enemy of the non-israelites.

 

The israelites were told that they should bring "terror" to their enemies. They are still doing that.

 

-------------------------

 

1. "The Lord destroyed them before them" -- the general treatment of the people who were supposedly displaced by the Israelites. 2:21-22

 

2. All nations shall be terrorized by the followers of Yahweh. 2:25

 

3. God hardened the heart of the king of Heshbon and so that he could have him and all of his people killed. 2:30

 

4. At God's instructions, the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." 2:33-36

 

5. The Israelites, with God's help, kill all the men, women, and children of every city. 3:3-6

 

6. When going to war, don't be afraid. God is on your side; "he shall fight for you." 3:22

 

7. God destroyed the followers of Baalpeor. 4:3

 

8. God brought the Israelites out of Egypt "by war ... and by great terrors." 4:34

 

9. If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you. 6:15

 

10. God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. 7:2

 

11. If you do show any mercy to such strangers, "give your daughters to any of them, or "take" any of their daughters, then you'll get God so angry that he'll "destroy thee suddenly." 7:4

 

12. God will kill those who hate him. 7:10

 

13. God commands his people to "consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity on them." 7:16

 

14. God will send hornets to kill your enemies, "for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible." 7:20-23

 

15. God is "a consuming fire" that destroys people. 9:3

 

16. "The blood of sacrifices shall be poured out ... and thou shalt eat the flesh." Isn't this the sort of thing that Satanists are accused of doing? 12:27

17. Kill those of other faiths. 12:30

 

18. Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5

19. If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 13:6-10

 

20. If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. (Watch out Salt Lake!) 13:12-16

 

21. Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 17:2-7

 

22. Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed. 17:12-13

 

23. False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 18:20

 

24. Murderers and perjurers are to be executed -- "and thine eye shall not pity" them. 19:11-13, 18-21

 

25. "And thine eye shall not pity. Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." 19:21

 

26. God travels with people and fights in their wars. 20:4

 

27. In the cities that god "delivers into thine hands" you must kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword .... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself." 20:13

 

28. "But of the cities ... which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Yahweh said: "Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies." 20:16

 

29. If you find a dead body and don't know the cause of death, then get all the elders together, cut off the head of a heifer, wash your hands over its body, and say our hands have not shed this blood. (That'll do it!) 21:1-8

 

30. If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die." 21:18-21

 

31. Hang on trees the bodies of those who are "accursed of God." They make nice decorations. 21:22

 

32. If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep. 22:13-21

 

33. "If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die." 22:22

 

34. If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." 22:23-24

 

35. Legal disputes are settled by a judge who determines guilt or innocence. No lawyers or jury are needed. Those found guilty will be beaten with 40 stripes. 25:1-3

 

36. If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the "secrets" of the other, "then thou shalt cut off her hand" and "thine eye shall not pity her." 25:11-12

 

37. God commands the Israelites to "blot out the rembrance of Amalek from under heaven." A few hundred years later God orders Saul to kill of the Amalekites "both man and woman, infant and suckling." (1 Sam.15:2-3) 25:19

 

38. If you don't obey all of the laws that are given in the Old Testament, God shower you with the curses that are given in the next 52 verses. 28:16-68

 

39. "Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body." 28:18

 

40. God will send you "cursing, vexing, the pestilence, consumption, fever, inflammation, extreme burning, the sword, blasting, and mildew." 28:20-22

 

41. "And thy carcass shall be meat to all the fowls of the air." 28:25-26

 

42. "The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and the emerods [hemorrhoids], and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst be healed. The Lord will smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart." 28:27-28

 

43. "Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes." 28:31

 

44. Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people." 28:32

 

45. You will be enslaved and driven mad in another country. 28:33-34

 

46. "The Lord will smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head." 28:35

 

47. You will be ruled by other nations, forced to serve other gods, become a laughingstock among your neighbors, have your crops destroyed by locusts, your vines eaten by worms, and have fruitless olive trees. 28:36-40

 

48. "Thou shalt begat sons and daughters, but thou shall not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity." 28:41

 

49. "All these curses shall come upon thee ... and upon thy seed for ever." 28:48-49

 

50. God will enslave you and destroy you with hunger, thirst, hardship, and all kinds of deprivation. 28:48-52

 

51. "And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters." 28:53-55

 

52. "The tender and delicate woman" will be forced to eat her own children "that cometh out from between her feet." 28:56-57

 

53. If you don't do as God says he'll send plagues to torment and destroy you. 28:58-64

 

54. "The LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind." 28:65-67

 

55. God will have you sold to your enemies -- but even they won't buy you. 28:68

 

56. If you serve the gods of other nations, "all the curses that are in this book" will fall upon you. 29:18-20

 

57. "And the Lord will put all these curses upon thine enemies." See Dt.28:16-64 for some of the curses God has in mind. 30:7

 

58. Moses tells the people that God will destroy all the inhabitants of the lands that they pass through. 31:3

 

59. When God gets mad -- watch out! He'll starve you to death, burn you with fire, and send vicious beasts to devour you. He'll "destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs." Not even the helpless and innocent are spared by this psychotic God. 32:21-26

 

60. God says, "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense ... for the day of their destruction is at hand." 32:35

 

61. God says, "I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh." Someone should take his sword and arrows away, at least until he's feeling better. 32:39-43

[shvu 1]

 

Since the masses of the people are inconstant, full of unruly desires, passionate, and reckless of consequences, they must be filled with fears to keep them in order. The ancients did well, therefore, to invent gods, and the belief in punishment after death - Polybius the historian (200 BC)

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

What a pathetic attempt to take those texts out of context!

 

Didn't we deal with this already in the Origins of Satan string?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Don, those quotes seemed to match pretty close to me. And it was something I was not aware of. Somehow the Koran doesn't seem so bloody now to me. Perhaps we can find similar seculat things in the Vedas? I hope not, but somehow fear the truth.

 

One can eat anything 'the soul lusteth after' as long as the blood is drained onto the ground first. It was all very scary stuff.

 

Was that a Moses book? It seemed more political than spiritual. It was very very frightening. Thank God, the Christians don't read the Bible.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Yes all that is out of context and yes - there are nasty things in the Vedas too.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

You posted this on the Origins of Satan Myth thread on 08/30/05 @ 12:02 AM - and I replied to all this in that string just read the thread and you'll get you answers...

 

[Guest guest]

Bhakta Don, I've searched for the word "Deuteronomy" in that thread but found no answers. In my heart I can see no difference between those statements and the ones I find offensive in the Koran.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, but most of those examples seem pretty straight forward, and it appears that the guest who posted those points from Deuteronomy was fairly accurate:

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013%20;&version=9;

 

[Guest guest]

Moses is supposed to be the author of Deuteronomy

 

In Deuteronomy chapter 28, Moses write that Yahweh is supposed to have said these things:

 

===========================

King James Bible

===========================

 

15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

 

16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

 

17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

 

18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

 

19Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

 

20The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

 

21The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

 

22The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

 

23And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

 

24The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

 

25The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

 

26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

 

27The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.

 

28The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:

 

29And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

 

===========================

 

My favourite line is line 27, where Yahweh says he is going to give everyone hemorroids:

 

The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.

 

[Guest guest]

Is Yahweh has the same "personality" as Sri Krishna?

 

Does Krishna go around cursing people who don't worship Him?

 

No.

 

Krishna says:

=========================

 

 

19) After many, many births, the knowledgable person (who happens to

attain the association of a pure devotee) finally comes to understand

that the whole universe of moving and stationary being is of the

nature of Vasudeva alone, inasmuch as all things are pervaded by Vasudeva.

Having grasped this conception, he surrenders unto Me. Know such a

great soul to be extremely rare.

 

20) Persons whose good intelligence has been spoiled by illicit

desires for exploitation and renunciation or other duplicitous

pursuits, worship other godly personalities such as the Sun-god and

the many other gods. Being enslaved by their instinct, they adopt the

corresponding rules and regulations of fasting and other tenets

accordingly.

 

21) According to whichever god representing a form of Me a

particular devotee desires to worship faithfully, I, as the

Supersoul dwelling within his heart, make his faith strong for the

deity of his choice.

 

22) After being endowed with this firm faith by Me, such a devotee

goes on worshiping the deity of that god, and gains all his

desired objects from that deity. Certainly this is enacted by

My sanction alone, since I am the Supersoul situated within the heart

of the god also.

 

23) But the fruit obtained by those provincially interested worshipers

of the various gods is temporary. They reach their respective

gods, but My devotees obtain Me.

 

24) My eternal superexcellent nature, form, qualities, activities,

pastimes, and associated paraphernalia are all transcendental to

illusion. But unintelligent men, unable to know this reality, think of

Me thus: 'Oh, the supra-mundane, formless impersonal Brahman has

recently accepted birth in an illusory form as the son of

Vasudeva in king Kamsa's prison chamber.'

 

25) By My own sweet will, remaining concealed by an illusory image, I

am not manifest to anyone and everyone. Therefore, none of these

foolish persons can ever really know Me as the son of Vasudeva, who am

independent of mundane birth and ever-existent in My divine personal

Syamasundara form with beautiful features like a blackish rain-cloud.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Very interesting about these religions of Man. Ill reserve comment until later this week, but the point is being made that not all things attributed to God are from Him. So-called "inspired writing" of biblical authors often convey just their cultural and political prejudices, exclusivity, etc. The term "tribal God" refers to the god created in mans image which Jethro Tull addresses in his 60s album "Aqualung".

 

Religious, of course, but is any of it descriptive of actual spiritual life?

 

And, BTW, Srila Prabhupada did not praise the bible or giver it much credence. While he did not lambast the content, he did note the flaws, the manipulations, the speculations, and the complete ineffectiveness of it to make devotees of Krsna.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

I posted the date of that posting - 08/30/05 @ 12:02 AM – of course my replies to that posting are dispersed throughout the thread – the ideas that are so offensive which you note are things that happened five thousand years ago – it seems to me to be petty to fixate on these ancient points almost exclusively while ignore the more numerous texts that read like texts from the Vedas.

 

In the Origins of Satan thread start reading at posting dated 07/23/05 03:31 AM – we had this discussion already…

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Quote:

 

he did note the flaws

 

Reply:

 

He noted the flaws wherever he found them – including within Hinduism…

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Quote:

 

Does Krishna go around cursing people who don't worship Him?

 

Reply:

 

You enter on a topic here that isn’t so unclear – in the entire Vani of Srila Prabhupada - people who do not surrender to Krishna are described in less than praiseworthy terms:

 

…a person who is not so transcendentally situated has no good qualifications… [bG 2.55, purport]

 

…On the other hand, those who are nondevotees have no good qualifications whatsoever, however they may be materially advanced… [sB 1.11. 19, PURPORT]

 

There is more – of course Krishna says:

 

I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him. [bG 9.29]

 

Essentially though nondevotees are described as being demoniac and despite whatever ‘good’ material qualification one has - if he doesn’t surrender to Krishna he is described as a rascal.

 

Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life. [bG 16.19]

 

…As far as the atheistic are concerned, it is not necessary for the Supreme Lord to appear as He is to destroy them, as He did with the demons Ravana and Kamsa. The Lord has many agents who are quite competent to vanquish demons.… [bG 4.8, purport]

 

Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me. [bG 7.15]

 

“Even though one may have gone to the other side of all the Vedas, and even though one is well versed in all the revealed scriptures, if one is not a devotee of the Supreme Lord, he must be considered the lowest of mankind.” (Garuda Purana) [sB 2.9.36, purport]

 

Now in the disputed biblical tradition we are faced with the monotheistic Hebrews living amongst groups that were not worshipping in any other manner but - in extreme tamo guna – the quality of ignorance – their 'faith' being nothing more than animistic and superstition cults.

 

The nonexistent gods of these cults could not be considered on the same level as the real and factual demigods.

 

But question enters on the point of service to them - i.e.: the ancient sacrifices?

 

These noted imaginary gods were served with human – especially child sacrifices – thus in the disputed biblical texts - the supremacy of the 'One God' is being established over and above that of these false gods within the nations round about Israel – much like in the noted texts in our Vedas - which do the same thing.

 

Without doubt - point for point - there are many parallels in true monotheistic traditions.

 

If we look at the point of ‘God verses gods’ – and know that the fight is the same - no matter the cultural backgrounds of the living entities then we can see more sincerely.

 

What do we see in Bhagavatam which might be taken out of context by an outsider?

 

When looking at the histories recounted in the Vedas we have many things - here is one:

 

Thereafter, in the sixth year, after wandering in the forest, Rohita returned to the capital of his father. He purchased from Ajigarta his second son, named Sunahasepha. Then he offered Sunahasepha to his father, Hariscandra, to be used as the sacrificial animal and offered Hariscandra his respectful obeisances.

 

PURPORT

 

It appears that in those days a man could be purchased for any purpose. Hariscandra was in need of a person to sacrifice as the animal in a yajna and thus fulfill his promise to Varuna, and a man was purchased from another man for this purpose. Millions of years ago, animal sacrifice and slave trade both existed. Indeed, they have existed since time immemorial. [sB 9.7.20, with purport]

 

Thereafter, the famous King Hariscandra, one of the exalted persons in history, performed grand sacrifices by sacrificing a man and pleased all the demigods. In this way his dropsy created by Varuna was cured. [sB 9.7.21]

 

Now think of the evangelicals and the way they'll see this text!

 

Imagine the flights of fancy that could enter the minds of those who might think your 'Vedic faith' is invalid on the basis of this ancient history/practice.

 

As noted - “grand sacrifices by sacrificing a man and pleased all the demigods” – so what about that?

 

Is that why one reason why Krishna is so down on ‘stupid’ demigod worshippers? What part of the sacrifice so pleased the ‘real’ demigods?

 

If we are going to be fair to a broad understanding then - we must be prepared to stare into our own ancient mirrors too.

 

The histories of faiths are often 'a sorted affair' and how much more so under the pressures of the advent of Kali Yuga!

 

What we must never forget is that Srila Prabhupada was unabashed in his presentation of atheists and secular humanists - as they are.

 

How do you relate to someone when they come to you saying that you preach 'exclusivist teachings' that dismiss the ethics and morals of people who have 'no' faith in God?

 

If you encounter any number people who say that the Hindu god Krishna was just a man who lived in India five thousand years ago – if he existed at all – what do you say?

 

So clearly - from the critics perspective - they could see our tradition as ‘tribal’ in origin too?

 

So where do we end up following an exclusivist and narrow-minded assessment of other faith traditions?

 

I realize that this won’t satisfy this point in your mind – but who knows - let’s see if we can bridge the divide.

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

In the bible in Genesis 22 we have Yahweh saying:

" Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

 

You ask what the evangelicals will say about the story of Harischandra. Well, who cares? Their own bible says that Yahweh asked for a human sacrifice. He was only testing Abraham, it turns out, but the fact remains that Yahweh did ask for a human sacrifice. The Jews used to kill and offer animals, as the Muslims still do, and they believed it is what god wants. But they are deluded.

 

[Guest guest]

 

You also said this: "Now in the disputed biblical tradition we are faced with the monotheistic Hebrews living amongst groups that were not worshipping in any other manner but - in extreme tamo guna – the quality of ignorance – their 'faith' being nothing more than animistic and superstition cults."

 

But look at the quote above from the Gita.

 

Krishna doesn't curse or despise people who worship other gods. As was pointed out earlier, Krishna is a different personality from Yahweh.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yahweh asked for a human sacrifice....

 

Yahweh cursed anyone who worships any other god...

 

Yahweh said he would give them hemorroids!

 

Krishna told the Vrajabasis to worship Govardhana (salagrama) and not Indra, but he never cursed the worshippers of Indra or other gods. Live and let live - that is what he taught.

 

That fact is also in the Bhagavatam.

 

[Guest guest]

In telling the story of Harischandra and the human sacrifice, the Bhagavatam doesn't PROMOTE human sacrifice. It merely recounts the history of the times. The Puranas are "histories".

 

Devotees of Krishna don't worship gods such as Varuna (who asked for the human sacrifice), but they acknowledge that worship of "other gods" is something that has been going on since time immemorial.

 

The fact that the hebrews were "monotheistic" doesn't make them any better than anyone else, according to the Vedas. Idol worshipers are not condemned in the Vedas at all. It is only the semitic religions and their gods that condemn idolaters and say that idol worshipers are "to be killed".

 

[Guest guest]

There are poeple who actually do or did find these texts meaningful, even Godly. Clearly they are not for us, but perhaps they were for those jivas at their level of God consciousness on the road to Krishna.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Quote:

 

Srila Prabhupada did not praise the bible or giver it much credence

 

Reply:

 

...Another name for Krsna is Uttamasloka, which indicates that He is worshiped by the best selected words. It is not that we should use any words we choose. There are many prayers in the Vedic scriptures and also in the Bible and Koran. Although the Christians and Muhammadans do not worship the Deity, they offer prayers to the Lord, and that is also bhakti. Arcanam vandanam... [TLK text 35, purport]

 

When our constitutional position or dharma is deteriorated due to the contaminations of matter, the Lord Himself comes as an incarnation or sends some of His confidential servitors. Lord Jesus Christ called himself the “son of God,” and so is a representative of the Supreme. Similarly, Mohammed identified himself as a servant of the Supreme Lord. Thus whenever there is a discrepancy in our constitutional position, the Supreme Lord either comes Himself or sends His representative to inform us of the real position of the living entity. [CWK 2]

 

Prabhupada: No, Yahweh, what is...? That is the name?

 

Visnujana: Name. “I am that...” It means in English, “I am that I am.”

 

Prajapati: Some people translate that as jehovah.

 

Visnujana: jehovah.

 

Prajapati: But it’s the same word. In fact, everyone agrees they do not know what the real name is. Some say Yahweh; some say jehovah. The Jewish tradition replaces completely and says Adonai, instead.

 

Prabhupada: That’s all right. He may not say. But we have to take from the meaning. What is the meaning?

 

Visnujana: “No one is beyond Me.”

 

Prabhupada: That’s all right. “No one is beyond Me.” Then he comes to our conclusion, all-attractive. This is... They come to our conclusion, all-attractive. Because if somebody is beyond Him, then he should be attractive. But if He’s final attractive, then all-attractive, Krsna. Krsna means all-attractive. What do you think? [Conversation with devotees on theology April 01, 1975]

 

...We don’t even demand you say “Krsna.” You can say “jehovah.” you can say “Yahweh.” You can chant the names of God... [sB 5.5.1 lecture, August 30 1971]

 

...Everyone says, "God is great." Allah-u-akbar, the Muslims say: "God is great." And Hindus say, param brahma: "You are the Supreme Spirit." So God is great. ... [CAT 12]

 

Don’t think that this Krsna consciousness movement is a new type of religion. Where is the religion which does not recognize God? One may call God “Allah” or “Krsna” or something else, but where is that religion which does not recognize God? We are teaching that one should simply try to love God. We are attracted by so many things, but if our love is reposed in God, then we will be happy. We don’t have to learn to love anything else; everything else is automatically included. Just try to love God. Don’t try to love just trees or plants or insects. This will never satisfy. Learn to love God. That is Caitanya Mahäprabhu’s mission; that is our mission. [sSR 5]

 

...if you think that “Oh, Krsna is the name of Hindu god,” if you have got any objection, then you may not chant Krsna, but you must have a name for God. Just like somebody, the Muhammadans, call Allah, the Jews call jehovah, or somebody calls something. That doesn’t matter. If you think that “Why shall I chant the Indian name Krsna, Sanskrit name Krsna?” so Lord Caitanya says that there are millions and billions of names of God. If you think that this Krsna name is not very suitable, you can accept any name. That doesn’t matter. Our proposition is you chant God’s name. That is our proposal.... [Lecture June 15, 1968]

 

It should be noted that the name 'Jehovah' is a mis translation of the Name Yahwey - and the Name Yahwey is rendered from the Exodus [chapter three] narration of the first 'encounter' of God and Moses:

 

Now Moses was keeping the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the farthest end of the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God, unto Horeb. And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said: 'I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.' [Exodus 3.1-4]

 

And Moses said unto God: 'Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them: The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me: What is His name? what shall I say unto them?' And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.' And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations. [Exodus 3.13-15]

 

I have read that in the original Hebrew - the translation of - “I AM THAT I AM” – is more accurately - “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” – so what does that mean then?

 

The original Hebrew is more closer to - “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” – it could also mean - “I AM WHOMEVER I WANT TO BE” – that broadened explication should be in keeping with a Limitless God – as it is also taken by some that this is His Name that was given to Moses.

 

It is said that the Name 'Yahweh' is a rendering of a proper Name from text 3.14 – however the rendering is taken – to be a proper Name or - to be a transcendental quipping answer from God about His Limitless Nature – or both - the words - “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” - are very 'deep'.

 

When I see it 'simply' rendered as - “I AM THAT I AM” - in English Bibles – without regard to the grammatical nuances of the Original Hebrew – and then compare it with a more literal - “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” – it makes me appreciate the orininal context all the more.

 

So in my humble opinion - God is saying in this text that - He is Krishna - He adds:

 

And God said ‘moreover’ unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham…

 

God said ‘moreover’ – "the Lord - the God of your fathers" - "in addition to" I am the God of your Fathers.

 

He is indeed quite clear that He is a Limitless Being one not Limited by who we think He could be or - could not be - as it were saying - “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” - as well as saying I'm - ‘the God of your Fathers and - the Source of Everything’!

[Guest guest]

"You enter on a topic here that isn’t so unclear – in the entire Vani of Srila Prabhupada - people who do not surrender to Krishna are described in less than praiseworthy terms"

 

and

 

"Essentially ... nondevotees are described as being demoniac and despite whatever ‘good’ material qualification one has - if he doesn’t surrender to Krishna he is described as a rascal."

- Don Muntean

 

----------------

 

Nondevotees are not all "demonic" or "karmis", according to the philosophy taught by Srila Prabhupada and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana (a priest), a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater (outcaste)."

-- Bhagavad-gita (5.18)

 

You misrepresent Prabhupada when you suggest that he taught that all non-devotees are "demonic". If you had met him you would know that he sympathised with "non-devotees" who are suffering in this material world. You'd know Prabhupada felt compassion for non-devotees and that it was his feeling of compassion that brought him to the West. Following the order of his compassionate Guru, he came to the west to preach the message of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to people who are in darkness because of nivisesha-sunyavada and different kinds of psuedo religion such as the religions that Prabhupada referred to as "meat eater religions". Prabhupada never condemned non-believers to death in the way your Moses condemns people.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Fact is further study shows that it wasn't God speaking [it was another interpolated dialogue – the same one speaking in Leviticus and Deuteronomy] in that text - and did 'God' permit the sacrifice to go forward?