religions of man

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

You’ll share one thing with your opposites - the biblical exclusivists – it'll be an outside position in the formation of the 'solution' to the world’s present ills…

[Guest guest]

Become self-effulgent.

 

A tree is known by its fruit.

 

The common man follows in the steps of a great man.

 

Physician heal thyself.

 

 

Forget neti, neti, neti --- become a pure lover of God. Then the world will see the truth. Forget the ridicule of another man's dharma which he must perform due to his current state of advancement on the road to Krishna. Even the worm in the stool is in truth a sac-cid-ananda jiva soul part and parcel of Sri Krsna.

 

Krsna, as Parasurama killed many generations of ksatriya warriors. We need only kill ahankhara. And how difficult can that be?

 

VoiceInTheWilderness

[Guest guest]

The following is part of The Bhagavata, Its Philosophy, Its Ethics, and Its Theology by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinode Thakura as found at http://www.bvml.org/SBTP/bhagavata.htm

 

"As far as we can understand, no enemy of Vaishnavism will find any beauty in the Bhagavata. The true critic is a generous judge, void of prejudices and party spirit. One who is at heart the follower of Mohammed will certainly find the doctrines of the New Testament to be a forgery by the fallen angel. A Trinitarian Christian, on the other hand, will denounce the precepts of Mohammed as those of an ambitious reformer. The reason simply is, that the critic should be of the same disposition of mind as that of the author, whose merits he is required judge. Thoughts have different ways. One, who is trained up in the thoughts of the Unitarian Society or of the Vedanta of the Benares School, will scarcely find piety in the faith of Vaishnavas. An ignorant Vaishnava, on the other hand whose business it is to beg from door to door in the name of Nityananda will find no piety in the Christian. This is because, the Vaishnava does not think in the way in which the Christian thinks of his own re ligion. It may be, that both the Christian and the Vaisnava will utter the same sentiment, but they will never stop their fight with each other only because they have arrived at their common conclusion by different' ways of thought. Thus it is, that a great deal of ungenerousness enters into the arguments of the pious Christians when they pass their imperfect opinion on the religion of the Vaishnavas.

 

Subjects of philosophy and theology are like the peaks of large towering and inaccessible mountains standing in the midst of our planet inviting attention and investigation. Thinkers and men of deep speculation take their observations through the instruments of reason and consciousness. But they take different points when they carry on their work. These points are positions chalked out by the circumstances of their social and philosophical life, different as they are in the different parts of the world. Plato looked at the peak of the Spiritual question from the West and Vyasa made the observation from the East; so Confucius did it from further East, and Schlegel, Spinoza, Kant and Goethe from further West. These observations were made at different times and by different means, but the conclusion is all the same in as much as the object of observation was one and the same. They all hunted after the Great Spirit, the unconditioned Soul of the Universe.

 

They could not but get an insight into it. Their words and expressions are different but their import is the same. They tried to find out the absolute religion and their labors were crowned with success, for God gives all that He has to His children if they want to have it. It requires a candid, generous, pious, and holy heart to feel the beauties of their conclusions. Party-spirit - that great enemy of truth - will always baffle the attempt of the inquirer who tries to gather truth from religious work of their nations, and will make him believe that absolute truth is nowhere except in his old religious book. What better example could be adduced than the fact that the great philosopher of Benares will find no truth in the universal brother-hood of man and the common father-hood of God? The philosopher, thinking in his own way of thought, can never see the beauty of the Christian faith. The way in which Christ thought of his own father, was love absolute and so long as the philosopher will not adopt that way of thinking he will ever remain deprived of the absolute faith preached by the western Savior. In a similar manner the Christian needs adopt the way of thought which the Vedantist pursued before he can love the conclusions of the philosopher. The critic therefore, should have a comprehensive, good, generous, candid, impartial and a sympathetic soul."

[Guest guest]

I just read this thread from the start page.

 

Don, you said Prabhupada said nondevotees are rascals.

<blockquote>

Essentially though nondevotees are described as being demoniac and despite whatever ‘good’ material qualification one has - if he doesn’t surrender to Krishna he is described as a rascal.

</blockquote>

 

The nameless guest you were arguing with was saying Prabhupada had compassion for ordinary folks and that they are not all rascals.

 

Now you are saying "Prabhupada spoke of the innocent masses and in that regard not all are demons". Have you changed your mind Don?

 

- Srngi dasa (ACBSP, Melbourne Australia, 1972)

 

[Guest guest]

I think we are splitting hairs here. Most likely quotes can be produced to support both contentions. Not that it really matters. Certainly a man who is not completely surrendered has some element of rascalry left in him, sa mahatma sudurlabah.

 

Even Lord Krishna in the Gita separates men into two groups: suras and asuras.

[Guest guest]

Perhaps people are splitting hairs. But in my experiences with Srila Prabhupada, for instance when we were waiting for Prabhupada's flight to Los Angeles at Sydney airport and he was talking to some reporters and other karmis (!) I got the feeling Srila Prabhupada wanted us to keep separate from karmis. He looked me straight in the face and said, "avoid meat eaters. They are barbarians". The quote of Prabhupada was given ealier about how the Bible and Koran are scriptures of the meat eaters. People here may not like it, but that is what he wrote in CC.

 

Srngi dasa

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Very nice posting - that is exactly my mood - and of course Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinode Thakura has clearly explained it...

 

Your servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

That is what he wrote and there is a proper way to understand it.

 

You are approaching this in a limited fashion if you are focused on this C.C. text - to the exclusion of so many others - which are favorable.

 

As for 'avoiding meateaters' and his comment about them being 'barbarians' - we would again take that in context - "He looked me straight in the face" - he looked you in the face and spoke to you [fortunate you!].

 

In his vani he explains the nuances of 'association' - hardly few of us are able to go through life without associating with a meat-eater. Do we eschew our families for instance?

 

Sometimes to protect his followers he would issue very strict orders about things and one was regarding false association.

 

We cannot take everything that Prabhupada says about demons and nondevotees and let it rule our minds - we are focused on the fact that we are all souls - but that we are at this time in a world of 'awareness distinctions' - he often uses the example that we know that the tiger is a soul but that does not mean that we would embrace a tiger - so in that way we have to understand human tigers.

 

On the issue of my 'changing' my mind - no I did not - if I was all down on the people in our world - the vast majority whom are not [directly] in the vedic school then - why would I spend time trying to show this commonality etc., why would I care?

 

Like it or not your exclusivity slant isn't seeded through Prabhupada's teachings [some of which you got directly?] - it is originating before your encounter with Jagat Guru?

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

 

Father Emmanuel: May I ask a question? We Christians also preach love of God, and we try to realize love of God and render service to Him with all our heart and all our soul. Now, what is the difference between your movement and ours? Why do you send your disciples to the Western countries to preach love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is propounding the same message?

Srila Prabhupada: The problem is that the Christians do not follow the commandments of God. Do you agree?

Father Emmanuel: Yes, to a large extent you're right.

Srila Prabhupada: Then what is the meaning of the Christians' love for God? If you do not follow the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come to teach what it means to love God: if you love Him, you cannot be disobedient to His orders. And if you're disobedient, your love is not true. All over the world, people love not God but their dogs. The Krsna consciousness movement is therefore necessary to teach people how to revive their forgotten love for God. Not only the Christians, but also the Hindus, the Muhammadans, and all others are guilty. They have rubber-stamped themselves "Christian,Hindu," or "Muhammadan," but they do not obey God. That is the problem.

Visitor: Can you say in what way the Christians are disobedient?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The first point is that they violate the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" by maintaining slaughterhouses. Do you agree that this commandment is being violated?

Father Emmanuel: Personally, I agree.

Srila Prabhupada: Good. So if the Christians want to love God, they must stop killing animals.

Father Emmanuel: But isn't the most important point-

Srila Prabhupada: If you miss one point, there is a mistake in your calculation. Regardless of what you add or subtract after that, the mistake is already in the calculation, and everything that follows will also be faulty. We cannot simply accept that part of the scripture we like, and reject what we don't like, and still expect to get the result. For example, a hen lays eggs with its back part and eats with its beak. A farmer may consider, "The front part of the hen is very expensive because I have to feed it. Better to cut it off." But if the head is missing there will be no eggs anymore, because the body is dead. Similarly, if we reject the difficult part of the scriptures and obey the part we like, such an interpretation will not help us. We have to accept all the injunctions of the scripture as they are given, not only those that suit us. If you do not follow the first order, "Thou shalt not kill," then where is the question of love of God?

[Guest guest]

CC Adi 17.152: Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya said, "My dear uncle, I have come to your home just to ask you some questions.""Yes," the Kazi replied, "You are welcome. Just tell me what is in Your mind."

CC Adi 17.153: The Lord said, "You drink cows milk; therefore the cow is your mother. And the bull produces grains for your maintenance; therefore he is your father.

CC Adi 17.154: "Since the bull and cow are your father and mother, how can you kill and eat them? What kind of religious principle is this? On what strength are you so daring that you commit such sinful activities?"

CC Adi 17.155: The Kazi replied, "As You have Your scriptures called the Vedas and Puranas, we have our scripture, known as the holy Koran.

CC Adi 17.156: "According to the Koran, there are two ways of advancement — through increasing the propensity to enjoy, and through decreasing the propensity to enjoy. On the path of decreasing attachment [nivrtti-marga], the killing of animals is prohibited.

CC Adi 17.157: "On the path of material activities, there is regulation for killing cows. If such killing is done under the guidance of scripture, there is no sin."

CC Adi 17.158: As a learned scholar, the Kazi challenged Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "In Your Vedic scriptures there is an injunction for killing a cow. On the strength of this injunction, great sages performed sacrifices involving cow-killing."

CC Adi 17.159: Refuting the Kazis statement, the Lord immediately replied, "The Vedas clearly enjoin that cows should not be killed. Therefore every Hindu, whoever he may be, avoids indulging in cow-killing.

CC Adi 17.160: "In the Vedas and Puranas there are injunctions declaring that if one can revive a living being, one can kill it for experimental purposes.

CC Adi 17.161: "Therefore the great sages sometimes killed old cows, and by chanting Vedic hymns they brought them back to life for perfection.

CC Adi 17.162: "The killing and rejuvenation of such old and invalid cows was not truly killing but an act of great benefit.

CC Adi 17.163: "Formerly there were powerful brahmanas who could make such experiments using Vedic hymns, but now, because of the Kali-yuga, bra-hmanas are not so powerful. Therefore the killing of cows and bulls for rejuvenation is forbidden.

CC Adi 17.164: "In this Age of Kali, five acts are forbidden: the offering of a horse in sacrifice, the offering of a cow in sacrifice, the acceptance of the order of sannyasa, the offering of oblations of flesh to the forefathers, and a mans begetting children in his brothers wife.

CC Adi 17.165: "Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance.

CC Adi 17.166: "Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.

CC Adi 17.167: "There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument."

CC Adi 17.168: After hearing these statements by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Kazi, his arguments stunned, could not put forward any more words. Thus, after due consideration, the Kazi accepted defeat and spoke as follows.

CC Adi 17.169: "My dear Nimai Pandita, what You have said is all true. Our scriptures have developed only recently, and they are certainly not logical and philosophical.

CC Adi 17.170: "I know that our scriptures are full of imagination and mistaken ideas, yet because I am a Muslim I accept them for the sake of my community, despite their insufficient support.

CC Adi 17.171: "The reasoning and arguments in the scriptures of the meat-eaters are not very sound," the Kazi concluded.

 

Srngi dasa

[Guest guest]

Someone might say that Mahaprabhu was only saying that Muslims will go to hell for killing cows, but not Christians or Jews. But Mahaprabhu says that anyone who kills cows without being able to bring them back to life is condemned.

 

"Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow."

- Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

 

Mahaprabhu also had this to say about "the holy koran".

 

"There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument."

 

Someone might say that while the koran is full of many mistakes, the old testament and new testament are inspired scriptures. But in the old testament there are statements saying men can eat cows. Mahaprabhu's statement that killers of cows go to hell is certainly applicable to the people who eat beef because the Bible says it is OK. They can't bring cows back to life, so they will suffer the karma that is due to them.

 

Srngi dasa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol, folks, heated but good discussion. Please do not get discouraged by the diversity shown here, because the unity is great among us all.

 

All scripture is open to mental speculation, this is where the "MANIPULATION" occurs. A case in point is actually pre4sented here. Lord Chaitanya discussed the flaws of Qoran, yet the very utilization of such Qoran by Him is what convinced the Kazi to allow samkirtana to continue.

 

"Religions of Man" means just that, scripture spoiled by interpretations by those who may well not be PARAMAHAMSA, free from materialistic thinking. Lord Jesus Christ is such a paramahamsa, and this is well documented by the pastime of Capernaum, where He discounts the faith of all of Judea, and claims that a Roman Soldier has more faith than all of them.

 

Religious ferver, utilized by cultural and social rulers to control populations, is obviously geared to creation of enemies of God. Without such creation, the population cannot be held, just as in todays perverted society. We do not go to war against concepts, we need a face, be it bin Laden, Saddam, or whoever the new guy is. And the leader of the opposition is placed as the great satan prior to any control of the other side, so Bush, Reagan, Nixon, LBJ, these are demonized just as greatly (even greater due to population imbalances). But there is no spiritual value in any of it.

 

There is no value in scriptures read by non-paramahamsas. Only through the medium of such fully developed lovers of the Supreme Personality of Godhead can scriptures be uinderstood. This is greatly proven as well by Lord Chaitanya, who listened to the entire Sutras recited by the non-paramhamsa. He did not have trouble understanding the Sutras, only the way they were presented. And we are not speaking ofr so-called old and new testaments, not are we speaking of Qoran, Sri Chaitanya was speaking of the Holy Veda. No value whatsoever when recited by materialists who infuse their cultural and social prejudices.

 

So we have real eyebrow raisers here, quotations about the so-called god Yahweh, that confirm my suspicions that such a god is not Supreme, is not free from anger and avarice. We conclude that the religions of man are nothing more than demigod worship. There are twists that remind us of our own vedic lines. The Mormons worship Jesus to become a Jesus, other christians worship him to attain his kingdom, and all such worship is validated by shastra. We can become Lord Brahma, we can rise to attain residency of Sattyaloka. We caqn have a cultural and social system based on ancient writings interpreted over millenia by priests and fools. But the bottom line, without a careful hearing from, and submission to, the Dhira, the unconfused paramahamsa who can derive nectar from even filthy places, we have no spiritual advancement.

 

The Christian can spout off about Jesus, saying His name without respect and with an unwholesome familiarity that He Himself rejects vehemently, but he will never gain unless he submits to the initiation by Lord Jesus Christ.

 

What is that initiation? Definitely not taking up swords against infidels, because Lord Jesus Christ teachings are diametrically opposed to all such perversion. Lord Chaitanya Himself wanted to kill, but Lord Nityananda Prabhu prevented such action. The initiation is very simple. First we glorify the Holy Names of His Father, recogtnizing his absolute position as the all merciful and attractive Lord, both in this temporary form and the huge future that even awaits us on our deathbeds. We recognize and glorify His mercy, this is our daily bread, life sustainance. The initiation into Lord Jesus Christ's mission also entails us recognizing the mercy of the Supreme Lord, and submit into a reciprocal relationship, which is dangerous for anyone with too much attachment to social and cultural prejudice. We ask forgiveness for our sins to the extent that we forgive others for their sins even against us personally. How can one recite the Lords Prayer without seeing that we are asking God to treat us the same way we treat muslims, krsnas, buddhists, jews, communists, sinners, etc? Like all in itiation processes, the disciple should become unconfused dhira as well, and not make promises that lead to our own suicide.

 

The final line of Lord Jesus Christ initiation ceremony is full recognition of our helplessness. There are no Christians on the planet, nor have there ever been, who are not fully representations of selfless humility.

 

I offer my humble obiesnacies to Srila Prabhupada, who with straw in his teeth, arrives at my doorstep, asking that I take part in the great feast. His humility is the full representation of the gist of the Lords Prayer. He even submits, serves, honors, and glorifies his own disciples.

 

Now we get to the wrathful tracts of what fools think is a bible. Poetry, by man. Such poets can be properly interpreted by the paramhamsa, otherwise, all we have is fools on killing fields following the same tracts. Jonestown. If this tribal godism was authentic spiritual life, then Lord Jesus would initiate his followers to take up such swords, but he does not. He certainly does not deny the threefold miseries of life on earth, where killing is done by natural and social forces as well as the mind (adi-atmic, -daivic, -bhautic), he does describe the miseries we must incur by merely taking birth, but these come from our decision to take birth, not some vengeance of His Father.

 

So, the discussion may continue, but we have no need to compare religions created by man. Incorrect interpretations of ancient poetry has caused so much turmoil, has not put a dent in the big seven (the above mentioned threefold miseries along with the four samsara cycle phenomena of birth, disease, old age, and the big D), rather only makes them more severe. Lord Jesus Christ delivers us from the bondage of false Godism, as do all the authentic acaryas.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

(Note: I refrain from comment about Mohammed because Im not familiar with his historical position. Allah, however, is a full description of Lord Krsna, meaning most Compassionate Godhead. Krsna is the definition of such a Holy Name, as He is to the Names (attributes) Jahovia (omnescient), Abbha (Supreme Father), Eloha (Friend of all who live). Even if we make up a new name, if it fully applies in full form to the Most attractive Lord, such a Holy Name is authentic, which is also verified by vedic shastra. Krsna is known as Partha Sarathi, referring to the shelter of Arjuna, so if we call Him the shelter of the reader of this topic, this is an authorized Name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.)

[mahak 0]

Haribol, folks, Im glad this is not being seen as an exercize in comparative religion, because this defeats the points. We are actually speaking of interpretation of scripture. This post is run through my friend, Babhru das, because we have a mutual lawyer friend, Prahlada, who can be perhaps consulted to affirm my material analogy is correct.

 

The analogy, which I will tie together with the point Im trying to make on this topic later, is as follows. In legal terms, a law is rather useless. Im familiar with federal legislation, and have cited many laws in my pursuits of justice. However, such laws, be they US Code of Federal Regulations or United States Code, have no value in a court of Law. A federal magistrate thinks nothing at all of legal recitations of such codes.

 

What a litigant must provide to effectively make a case is a precedential citation of interpretation of such statutes. In other words, I can say its against the law for a federal employer to fail to pay overtime over and over, and I can provide hundreds of citations from federal labor statutes, but an administrative judge will not even hear me. The only thing that I can effectively present is a judicial decision on such a statute, and this is known as precedent. Without interpretations of statutes by authorized judicial officials, there actually are no statutes. Even executive branch, the cops, are aware of such jurisprudence, they do not arrest on the basis of law, rather on the interpretations of law by the judicial branch. They follow court decisions, not the stuff produced by lawmakers.

 

Analogy is that spiritual life also has such procedures. Any who say that they follow scripture without interpretation are not truthful, because even translation is interpretation. Those who use bibles and qorans and vedas as lawbooks are as ludicrous as the drydock lawyer who goes to court with CFRs and USCs. This is where the "religions of man" are created, by those who do not interpret but try to make sense using polluted minds and covered intellect.

 

The focus of spiritual life is spoken of by the Acaryas as a threefold system, that of guru-shastra-sadhu. This is the criteria for deciphering any written word, oriental or occidental.

 

Srila Vyasadeva produced laws, He was not fulfilled, but His guru Maharaja, Srila Narada Muni, appeared before him, speaking of the uselessness of the laws he created. His ORDER to Srila Vyasadeva, the original bhaktivedanta, is to interpret these laws, to make them valid. The very word, bhaktivedanta, means one who gleans pure devotional love of Godhead from the Vedas. Srimad Bhagavatam is the interpretation of the Veda that gives us Spiritual Life, not the Veda, which left even the author with a feeling of emptyness.

 

So, we get to the topic. All these laws, events, descriptions of pastimes, these are all empty. Life comes from the paramahamsa interpreting these things to produce spiritual life to all who study under the guidance of said Paramahamsa. We cannot make sense of the laws, the anecdotal accounts of the inspired wrtiters of scripture. But the faultless paramahamsa, the one whose very title indicates a bhaktivedanta, a gleaner of nectar even from dry philosophies, can give the sincere seeker of spiritual advancement the key or code to properly understand the true.

 

Srila Prabhupada does not make things up. What he teaches is exactly what Srila Vyasadeva teaches, and the true disciples of Srila Prabhupada also do not manufacture. But they do interpret, because without doing so, shastra has no value. Srila Prabhupada never states that reading scripture is enough to go back home, what he does teach is that a combination of becoming proficient in shastra, keeping true to the acaryas throughout history, and hearing from Guru, serving the acarya with love and rapt attention, such a combination will make the quest of spiritual life successful.

 

Srila Prabhupada taught us young and inexperianced disciples to not get hung up on what is not understood intellectually. If we dont understand, we chant, we follow his sadhana bhakti process of submissive inquiry, and take shelter in what we HAVE come to understand under His guidance. Advancement will take place, then Prthu actually does Milk the Earth Planet to glean out the natural resources, Dhruva does in actuality step on the head of the personality of Death to ride his chariot to the eternal Dhruvaloka. Understanding does not take place from reading such stories, but from becoming a devotee of Krsna.

 

Mo latah, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

We needed that.