Spiritual World is Eternally expanding?

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

The sun illuminates both internally and externally by expanding its radiation; similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by expanding His universal form, maintains everything in the creation both internally and externally.

 

PURPORT

The universal form of the Lord, or the impersonal feature of the Lord known as the brahmajyoti, is clearly explained here and compared to the radiation of the sun. The sunshine may expand all over the universe, but the source of the sunshine, namely the sun planet or the deity known as Surya-narayana, is the basis of such radiation. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krsna is the basis of the impersonal brahmajyoti radiation, or the impersonal feature of the Lord. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (14.27). So the universal form of the Lord is the secondary imagination of the impersonal form of the Lord, but the primary form of the Lord is Syamasundara, with two hands, playing on His eternal flute. Seventy-five percent of the expansive radiation of the Lord is manifested in the spiritual sky (tripad-vibhuti), and twenty-five percent of His personal radiation comprehends the entire expansion of the material universes. This is also explained and stated in the Bhagavad-gita (10.42). Thus the seventy-five percent expansion of His radiation is called His internal energy, whereas the twenty-five percent expansion is called the external energy of the Lord. The living entities, who are residents of the spiritual as well as the material expansions, are His marginal energy (tatastha-sakti), and they are at liberty to live in either of the energies, external or internal. Those who live within the spiritual expansion of the Lord are called liberated souls, whereas the residents of the external expansion are called the conditioned souls. We can just make an estimate of the number of the residents of the internal expansions in comparison with the number of residents in the external energy and may easily conclude that the liberated souls are far more numerous than the conditioned souls.

SB 2.6.18

 

 

If the Material Creation is 1 Quarter part of Entire Manisfested creation. Which it says it is. Isn't the spiritual world always expanding, just like Krishna enegies are always expanding, so is this just a figure. Because …

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

Suta said: In the beginning of the creation, the Lord first expanded Himself in the universal form of the purusa incarnation and manifested all the ingredients for the material creation. And thus at first there was the creation of the sixteen principles of material action. This was for the purpose of creating the material universe.

 

PURPORT

The Bhagavad-gita states that the Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna maintains these material universes by extending His plenary expansions. So this purusa form is the confirmation of the same principle. The original Personality of Godhead Vasudeva, or Lord Krsna, who is famous as the son of King Vasudeva or King Nanda, is full with all opulences, all potencies, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation. Part of His opulences are manifested as impersonal Brahman, and part of His opulences are manifested as Paramatma. This purusa feature of the same Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna is the original Paramatma manifestation of the Lord. There are three purusa features in the material creation, and this form, who is known as the Karanodakasayi Visnu, is the first of the three. The others are known as the Garbhodakasayi Visnu and the Ksirodakasayi Visnu, which we shall know one after another. The innumerable universes are generated from the skin holes of this Karanodakasayi Visnu, and in each one of the universes the Lord enters as Garbhodakasayi Visnu.

 

In the Bhagavad-gita it is also mentioned that the material world is created at certain intervals and then again destroyed. This creation and destruction is done by the supreme will because of the conditioned souls, or the nitya-baddha living beings. The nitya-baddha, or the eternally conditioned souls, have the sense of individuality or ahaìkara, which dictates them sense enjoyment, which they are unable to have constitutionally. The Lord is the only enjoyer, and all others are enjoyed. The living beings are predominated enjoyers. But the eternally conditioned souls, forgetful of this constitutional position, have strong aspirations to enjoy. The chance to enjoy matter is given to the conditioned souls in the material world, and side by side they are given the chance to understand their real constitutional position. Those fortunate living entities who catch the truth and surrender unto the lotus feet of Vasudeva after many, many births in the material world join the eternally liberated souls and thus are allowed to enter into the kingdom of Godhead. After this, such fortunate living entities need not come again within the occasional material creation. But those who cannot catch the constitutional truth are again merged into the mahat-tattva at the time of the annihilation of the material creation. When the creation is again set up, this mahat-tattva is again let loose. This mahat-tattva contains all the ingredients of the material manifestations, including the conditioned souls. Primarily this mahat-tattva is divided into sixteen parts, namely the five gross material elements and the eleven working instruments or senses. It is like the cloud in the clear sky. In the spiritual sky, the effulgence of Brahman is spread all around, and the whole system is dazzling in spiritual light. The mahat-tattva is assembled in some corner of the vast, unlimited spiritual sky, and the part which is thus covered by the mahat-tattva is called the material sky. This part of the spiritual sky, called the mahat-tattva, is only an insignificant portion of the whole spiritual sky, and within this mahat-tattva there are innumerable universes. All these universes are collectively produced by the Karanodakasayi Visnu, called also the Maha-Visnu, who simply throws His glance to impregnate the material sky.

SB 1.3.2

 

 

Any answers Please!!!

 

http://srimadbhagavatam.com

[theist 1]

Well Krsna is ever expanding. He astounds Himself.

 

One thing is we try to impose our conceptions of time and space on the spiritual world. This will not work very well.

 

If we think of the spiritual world as limited but expanding then the question arises what is it expanding into? This is our space conception worming its way into the equation.

 

If we think of at this time the spiritual world is this big but now it has become even bigger then it was this is our time conception worming in with space worm.

 

Acintya. Awe and wonder. All we can do is just bow down at His feet. This is where the exclamation "Oh My God" came from.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

Theres no void in the creation. But if the world is expanding then what is it expanding into. Maybe its our vision thats void. Maybe this world is not as big as we think it is. Anyway we can only live in 4-by-4 house.

 

City of 9 gates.

 

If somebody knew Krishna and asked Him "Whats at the corner of the Universe dear Keshava, He would say "I am".

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist 1]

 

If somebody knew Krishna and asked Him "Whats at the corner of the Universe dear Keshava, He would say "I am".

 

 

 

Good one

 

Physcists also have the same question they apply to the material world. If the universe is expanding then what is it expanding into?

 

Of course they imagine a void of some kind and wonder "how can that be?"

 

But we have been taught that there is no void rather there is Brahman.

 

We the infitesimal trying to conceive of the limits of the unlimited. I hope it makes Krsna smile to witness this.

[Avinash 0]

Physcists also have the same question they apply to the material world. If the universe is expanding then what is it expanding into?

 

Of course they imagine a void of some kind and wonder "how can that be?"

 

Physicists do not say that there is some void into which the universe is expanding. Let me take an analogy to explain what modern Physics says.

 

Often the analogy is given of a baloon. I have read another analogy that I find a better approximation. Consider infinitely large dough with lots of raisins in it. The dough is the space and the raisins are galaxies. Now start heating the dough. The dough expands. As the dough expands, the raisins move further apart from each other. This is what happens in the universe. The space itself is expanding. Since the space is expanding, galaxies are moving further apart from each other.

 

You may say that there is space around the dough and the dough is expanding into that. But if we consider the dough to be whole of space, then we cannot consider any space outside it, because even that space should be included in the dough itself. (All analogies have some limitations!) Moreover, some space ouside the dough can be considered only if the dough is of finite size. But consider an infinitely large dough.

 

The universe is expanding, but considering our 3 dimesnsional space + 1 dimensional time universe, the question "what is it expanding into?" has no meaning. It is just expanding.

[theist 1]

there is no vaccum. But I have also heard this question posed and pondered by physicists. I am not saying any propose this as a theory, some may I wouldn't know. just that it is a subject that some have contemplated.

 

 

You may say that there is space around the dough and the dough is expanding into that.

 

 

Yes that was the point. What is the dough expanding into. It was just some interesting thoughts that troubled some in that field. Things that make one go hmmm...?

 

They say that it all started with the Big Bang. That was a specific event at a specific time. And from that explosion all that is was set in motion and is still expanding. So it could not have already expanded everywhere unlimitedly. So from any point in time that we check it's progress of expansion it must be expanding into something. And since it is space/time that is expanding what could it(S/T) possibly be expanding into.

 

It is an impossible question for them.

 

I think the show was dealing mostly with theories on the death of the universe. Some were saying that if everything is constantly expanding at some point every space body will become so distant from every other one that everything would become virtually alone. They had some idea on how gravitational forces would be weakened and weakened, orbits broken etc.

 

I saw this sometime ago and don't remember that much and even as I watched it I couldn't follow most of what they were saying anyway.

 

I just remember thinking of what a bleak, cold, lonely,and depressed view of existence they were conceiving of.

[Avinash 0]

I wrote "You may say that there is space around the dough and the dough is expanding into that."

 

This can be said if we use dough to represent only a part of space. But let us consider entire space as dough. In such a case, there is nothing outside space, because if there was we would have included even that into space. Likewise, there is nothing outside dough. Therefore, the dough is not expanding into anything. It is just expanding.

 

The universe is not expanding into anything. It is just expanding. Again, considering only 4D (space+time) material universe.

[sumedh 0]

Hare Krishna

 

"The universe is not expanding into anything. It is just expanding. Again, considering only 4D (space+time) material universe."

This is what is most problematic. The only experience is that to expand there needs to be some space into which to expand into. Consider say a closed bottle, so that air inside has no space to expand then how can it expand. The concept is that universe is "closed" completely from all sides (even more than that since there is no space-time outside) then how can it expand. Okay, our intuition may defeat us here and say it is indeed possible. But where is the proof?

This is only speculation. Science is said to be systematic generalization of observation. Then where is a single observation of such a phenomenon. Certainly physicists can speculate but to pass off pure speculation (which does not have any experimental verification and which one cannot even imagine) as science is cheating.

[Avinash 0]

Red-shift of light is a proof of expansion of the universe.

[Avinash 0]

Consider say a closed bottle, so that air inside has no space to expand then how can it expand.

 

It can if the bottle itself is expanding.

 

The concept is that universe is "closed" completely from all sides (even more than that since there is no space-time outside) then how can it expand.

 

The universe is not closed. If you say it is closed, it means that it has a boundary. This, in turn, means that there should be something outside this boundary (otherwise how can there be boundary)?

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

If something is Eternally manifest then how do we know its expanding?

[Avinash 0]

Are you talking about spiritual world? Why do you think that eternal existence and expansion cannot go together?

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Are you talking about spiritual world? Why do you think that eternal existence and expansion cannot go together?

 

 

 

If something is eternal how can anybody say at what time it expanded?

[Avinash 0]

I was talking of the observable material universe. As per current knowledge this is not eternal. It has been expanding since a little over 13 billion years ago.

 

Even if something is eternal, it is possible that it is expanding. May be that started expanding x years back. It was not expanding before that. I am only saying that it is possible. I am not claiming that it must be so.

[sumedh 0]

The doppler relativistic shifting is not a proof. It is just one of the possible explanations which suited the astronomers. It is also very doubtful if special relativity can be applied in this way, without reference to general relativity which is normally used in all other cosmological phenomenon. Needless to say there are alternative explanations e.g. red-shifting due to gravitation, momentum loss etc. For instance see:

http://cecelia.physics.indiana.edu/life/redshift.html

http://www.electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4317/redaw.html

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1992Ap%26SS.190..149F&db_key=AST

 

But you missed the main point, probably the wording was not right. The question is: where is the single observation of expansion which does not require space to expand into?

[sumedh 0]

"The universe is not closed. If you say it is closed, it means that it has a boundary. This, in turn, means that there should be something outside this boundary (otherwise how can there be boundary)?"

So then define a boundary. In my understanding if there is a sudden change of even state of matter then it is a boundary. In this case there is space-time and then that "ends" at some point, a complete change. For example if there is water at one point and not at other, then will not the point where it is "ending" be its boundary.

The second part of the question is precisely the point of matter here.

The analogy of dough and raisins is not correct because by imagining an infinite dough you completely dodged the question -- of course, in an infinite universe model the question of expansion doesn't arise, it loses its meaning.

[Avinash 0]

Of course, there are many explanations for any observation. The same goes with red-shift. There is no way we can conclusively say that red shift proves Big Bang, because there are other explanations as well. But this can be said of any other explanation. Even if you choose some other theory to explain red shift, we can say that there is no proof for the theory because there are other explanations.

Since there are various theories to explain red shift, how do we decide which one to choose? For that we should eliminate all those theories which explain red shift but contradict some other phenomena that have been observed. If we are still left with more theries than one, then we should select the theory in which there are not too many assumptions without evidence.

Is there any explanation of the red shift that you prefer over the expansion of space? If so, which one?

[Avinash 0]

In my understanding if there is a sudden change of even state of matter then it is a boundary. In this case there is space-time and then that "ends" at some point, a complete change.

 

In one sense there is a boundary in the past (at the Big Bang). But where is the other boundary? The other boundary is possible if there is going to be a Bug Crunch. But the latest observations show that the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

 

In one sense Big Bang is a boundary, but in my previous post I was not talking about that kind of boundary. By boundary I meant space boundary. As an example, the surface of a sphere is the boundary for everything inside the sphere. But the surface itself has no boundary.

[Avinash 0]

In this web-site, I have often mentioned that I do not support Big Bang theory completely. I was just trying to explain what Big Bang says.

 

I think it will be better if I mention what explanation I really support and you explain what explanation you really support. Then, the discussion will be good.

[Avinash 0]

The question is: where is the single observation of expansion which does not require space to expand into?

 

Expansion without space is possible if we say that the expansion is happening in some higher dimension. I am just saying that it is possible.

[vijay 0]

Hare krishna i may of missed the point but here is what i understand about the spiritual world, i heard this example in back to godhead about expansions of krishna,

TThe question if i can remember correctly was if krishna and his expansions are eternal then how is krishna original or the first candle?

 

The answer was its like the sun and the sun shine the sun is the source of the shine. However which comes first the sun or the sunshine? without shine there is no sun and without sun no shine so the both come about together but the sun is still considered the source of the shine. Now just imagine if the sun was eternal.

 

If we expand this analogy futher the spiritual world is an eternal expansion of krishna eternally expanding from him which is quite inconcievable as there is no point 0 so its not like at one time theres less of it than at another time as the fraction of infinity is infinity.

 

considering the 25% material energy and 75% spirtual energy this may be pure specualation but both can be infinite. (im not sure if thats what we say)

As we know a fraction of infinity is infinity, say we we have a infinite space. Imagine this space is full of balls.

Now after every 3 blue balls there is 1 red ball, but this is infinite. Int this way it can be said that 25% is red and 75% is blue even though both are infinte. Simialrly both material and spirtual energy is infinite but 25% is material and 75% spitual.

 

Ultimately all inconcievable

 

[Avinash 0]

I was thinking along the following lines: -

 

Write down positive integers: 1, 2, 3, ...

 

There are infinite such numbers. The distance between any two consecutive numbers is 1.

 

Multiply each number by 2. Now, we have:-

2, 4, 6, 8, ...

 

Still there are infinite numbers. But the distance between two consecutive numbers is now 2, thus there is an expansion.

 

You have said something similar though in a different way. I like your way better.

 

As we know a fraction of infinity is infinity

 

I think the first verse of Isopanishad (or is it some other?) Upanishad says something similar.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Even if something is eternal, it is possible that it is expanding. May be that started expanding x years back. It was not expanding before that. I am only saying that it is possible. I am not claiming that it must be so.

 

 

 

 

Hayagriva: The present-day material scientists, astronomers, state..., one of the theories is that the universe is expanding, that the systems are going outward into space and are moving proportionately further and further from one another, just like raisins rising in dough. When raisin bread is in the oven, the raisins, they go further and further and further apart as the dough expands. So is this...?

Prabhupada: That expansion goes to a certain extent. Then the expansion stops, then it becomes dwindling and then finished.

--

 

I also think that in the spiritual world if there is not some sort of boundary then that means God is limited and cannot create this. For example if there is space outside the Spiritual creation why cannot there not be a middle ground? '’m not going to try to understand eternality but say this middle ground exists then it must also be Eternal right?

 

[Avinash 0]

I also think that in the spiritual world if there is not some sort of boundary then that means God is limited and cannot create this. For example if there is space outside the Spiritual creation why cannot there not be a middle ground? I'm not going to try to understand eternality but say this middle ground exists then it must also be Eternal right?

 

Why do you think that no boundary means a limitation of God? What exactly do you mean by 'middle ground'?

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Why do you think that no boundary means a limitation of God? What exactly do you mean by 'middle ground'?

 

 

Middle means no beginning and no end. Eternal. heh

But I also think because Krishna is unlimited it would be folly to think there is an Edge in the Spiritual World. If Shiva prabhu was around maybe he could explain the Cit/Sama vit {sp} potency as acting principle. Must be a combination of spiritual potency which re-create and creates. But I do need help to understand from Shivaji.