Is bible a holy book?

[gHari 0]

This is not the way to become qualified to be a gopi. Of course, not everyone is destined to become a gopi. But then you may already be a gopi for all I know, y'all being more exalted than this mythical Christ fellow and all.

 

With all the childish cynicism served with sassy sarcasm it is often difficult to understand what you think you are trying to say here. Be assured though, you are not qualified to say anything. But alas, you are not qualified to know that; no realization, simply comparing your bag of words to their bag of words, like a soul-less computer. It is all that book knowledge that puffeth-up as we steal Krsna's glory for ourselves. Oh the shame.

 

I am hoping that Krsna will let you find the required humility to both get some real perspective on this issue and to become His gopi in the service of Srimati Radharani's infrastructure.

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>>With all the childish cynicism served with sassy sarcasm

 

I put it out in the clear, the perfect chrixan-gaudiya siddhanta. You chrixans do all your deceitfulness on a sublte level.

 

>>>This is not the way to become qualified to be a gopi

 

Ya it is. Jesus has so much to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Just see image above. Krishna pauses his nitya-lila and looks to material world at his son. And Mahaprabhu glorified his greek devotee, Christ, when he visited the Syrian christians in S. India...because christ is directly related to Mahaprabhu's mission.

[gHari 0]

Better not to be taken at all.

 

I can have no compassion for this aberration. They aren't even rational. Someone else will have to turn the other cheek. For me, they are simply a shameful embarrassment, like a crazy cousin you keep locked in the basement.

 

[gHari 0]

You mean saints like Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami and A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, not to mention many current ISKCON gurus? No one here is equating Christ with Gaudiyaism. If you weren't so pompous (or stupid) you'd know that.

 

[anadi 0]

Dear mahak prabhu, thank you

for your encouraging words.

 

The idea of this thread is to show the basic fraud, and how the false siddhanta was spread by the pavelian sect of "christians" with the help of a forged collection of texts known under the name of bible.

 

 

A most unusual aspect of the book of Revelation is its letters to seven churches in Asia Minor: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea (see chapters 2 and 3). This is unparalleled in apocalyptic writing and has to be due ultimately to the impact that Paul's letter writing made on the New Testament church. Paul's letters had become so important that the literary form was imitated even by an apocalyptic writer. The book of Revelation as a whole has the external form of a letter in that it begins with an opening salutation (1:4-6) and closes with a benediction (22:21). The contrast in literary form between the direct address of the letters and the symbolic drama of the remainder of the book is startling, but no more so than the fact that an apocalyptic writer identifies himself and calls his work a prophecy.

 

The fact that we have here the outward form of a Pauline letter helps us to grasp the essential thrust of the work. It begins with a salutation in the Pauline style: "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Rev 1:5b-6; compare Gal 1:3-5). But then it continues: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen" (1:7). This is a classic statement of early Christian hope for the return of Jesus as apocalyptic judge and redeemer. Similarly, the closing benediction, "The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen" (22:21), is in the Pauline style, but it is preceded by a prayer for the coming of the Lord, "Come, Lord Jesus" (22:20).

 

That is a fraud, we can see it also here, where it has been said that was the “revelation” of Jesus, and was brought to John by an angel, but here is presented as if John had the revelation. Not that Jesus has seen the Lord, but John has seen Jesus, who is presented in the pavelinic doctrine as the Lord.

 

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (Jesus): and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

And in the next verse Jesus is presented as the God Himself, the Almighty Lord, which is another fraudulent idea introduced in the original esenian revelation.

 

1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

…

1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

…

1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

…

1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead (Jesus); and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

And this statement that Jesus has the keys of hell, makes him more a demigod like Yamaraja, but this statement maybe should be understood in the Pauline doctrine of eternal punishing of the evil human beings.

 

In the verse below we can see an analogy to the seven stars where the seven rishis are living, but the editorial work of the churchians put the seven stars as the seven churches!

 

1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (in Asia Minor: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea).

 

[theist 1]

Is anadi writing down his own thoughts here or simply copy and pasting another's without giving credit. Just curious.

[theist 1]

http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/piousfraud.html

 

anadi's source. just google Bible fraud and many sites will come up.

 

I notice David Icke's name remain on a couple of anadi's posts with no link or conscious attempt to give credit. You edited all the other ones but I guess a few are bound to slip by.

 

I am more interested in Bhagavad-gita fraud where the so-called translators claim to be the same unborn that spoke it through Krsna. The real fight is with mayavad.

[anadi 0]

As I edited more or less, this has to do with those commentaries on the fraud in the bible as they are atheistic, more from the "free thinker" logical point of view, and I gave a clou for the interested ones to look for the source of bible fraud, but this is second rate.

 

The point is that the bible in itself is a fraud.

 

Further it would be interesting to analize this fraud of "revelation" in the context of partial pralaya as explained in Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 3 Ch.11 from verse 28, as some "yogis" pretend that in the revelation the christians have information about the spiritual world.

[theist 1]

Main Entry: pla·gia·rize

Pronunciation: 'plA-j&-"rIz also -jE-&-

Function: verb

Inflected Form(s): -rized; -riz·ing

Etymology: plagiary

transitive senses :to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source

 

intransitive senses : to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source

- pla·gia·riz·er noun

[gHari 0]

Reading demons is bad in the first place, but then presenting the words of demons to devotees as though you accept them as the absolute truth must lead to one being treated exactly as a demon and one being distanced from Krsna just like it is the intent of the demon to be.

 

We live by the sword then die by the sword. At some point we will have to battle the uninformed mentalist demons as they tear apart the origins and content of the Vedas. I have no time for it. I have no intentions of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and neither will Anadi's brother-in-law; to hope that either of us would is demoniac.

 

[anadi 0]

Personal attacks

 

You both, theist and qhari, take you by the hand as previously kailasa and siva did.

You will never, never prove that bible is but a twisted plagiarism.

Instead of it, you just try to throw some mud on me. Keep on do it and speculate on demonic nature.

 

[gHari 0]

Do you, Anadi, know that all you have posted in this thread is true? If so, how so? It seems improper to talk so strongly about things that one knows nothing about. Doesn't it? Surely we have more integrity than that.

 

You demonstrated that you do not know what the gospel of Jesus is, despite being told, not wanting to hear or not having ears to hear. Surely you must see that such an uninformed person just looks foolish standing as an expert.

 

We have a saying: "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting". If the Madhvas prove to you logically that there is no reference to Sri Caitanya in the Vedas will you stop worshipping Lord Caitanya as Krsna? You have eaten the pudding - words just don't matter, and you will pity the hard hearts of the veiled logicians.

 

 

[anadi 0]

 

It is not about logic, is about the transcendental knowledge, which is very much twisted in the plagiated texts used in making up the bible.

 

Visions of Heaven or Spiritual world?

Whose Vision?

Now, as we go in the “vision of heaven” let’s say it is the vision of Jesus as proclaimed in the beginning, but let accept it like the vision of John, which as previously deliniated, cannot be the case, and see how it works.

 

“5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?”

 

Is it possible that in the spiritual world is a book (with 7 seals, that no one dares to look at it), or even in heaven?

Very unlikely, even on the earth, in the previous yugas there was no need of books, because of the good memory that was still prevailing, what to say about the spiritual world or even the heavenly planets?

“5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

 

In this next verse we see also that in the original apocalypse there must have been some knowledge about the three types of material planetary systems, “in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth”

 

“5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.”

 

If he were in the spiritual world how is it possible to find there unworthy people to look in that book? And if it was the heaven?

 

“5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

 

And if it were the spiritual world how is it possible that we find a material identification with the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, which have to do only with the creation lila related to the material world?

 

“5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”

 

Interesting to see that we have an idea about the four beasts that have a "resemblance" to the catur viuha from Vaikuntha, but not really.

And Jesus is in heaven as a lamb?! Who took the book from the hand of the Lord? Or the king of heaven?, here the said one “that sat upon the throne”, maybe if it were the Lord, he was addressed as such.

 

Interesting also how the saints ask for revenge.

 

“6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

 

Which definitely don’t put the acted drama in the spiritual world, where there is no idea about the material world, and acts of vengeance, and here the addressed "Lord" could be Yamaraja? or Indra? or maybe Brahma? Who cares!

who cares about all this apasiddhanta which is spread in the world in the name of truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth?

 

Symptomatic that one of the guardians of "true religion" is qhari! I had expected it from one like theist... but who knows... in the name of cultivation of good relations... or maybe samskaras of the past are at work...

[Gauracandra 1]

It seems to me you are just grasping at straws Anadi. Like take this for instance:

 

"Is it possible that in the spiritual world is a book (with 7 seals, that no one dares to look at it), or even in heaven?"

 

So, heaven can't have books? We could ask why do heavenly creatures have clothes. Why are there cows in the spiritual world? Do we need milk to drink in heaven? What happens if we don't eat, will we starve to death in heaven? If not, then why is there food at all. Why are there clothes in heaven? Is it because immodesty is a concept in heaven, and so the naked spiritual body would cause lusty desires among spiritual residents? Thus they must wear clothes?

 

Everything I've seen so far from you has just been cut and paste. Believe me, if you have questions about interpolations in the Bible, then it is definitely best not to look into books from India.

[theist 1]

Personally I have never even read more than a few books in the Bible. Sometimes I like the psalms or proverbs along with the Gospel of John in the New Testament. There is wisdom everywhere but it is mixed in with a lot of cultural bias from that culture and time. Basically I have a lot of problems with anything that prescribes animal sacrifice as an activity that supposedly pleases God. Including the old vedic culture. Even in Krsna book we read the brahmanas were engaged in this cruel practice. Plus all the horse sacrifices by all the great kings. Not attractive to me so I pass it by. Take what you need and leave the rest is my motto.

 

So I can find problems with all the main holy books if i wanted to dwell on such things. Like thew Purana's declaring carrots to be from the meat of some dead cow so there some vaisnava groups,yours I think, declared carrots to be the same as cow flesh. Pretty silly i think but to each his own.

 

Some pages back i offered a quote from Prabhupada where he instructs that his followers should not be offensive to the Bible as it is in pursuance of the vedic version. You ignored it of course.

 

If you were really speaking from the point of view of a vaisnava it would be more productive to find something that Christians or Jews agrre with you on from the Bible and then try expand on that and not concentrate solely on the faults and trying to break their faith. Vaisnava's are faith builders not breakers. You must present a higher understanding not just attack a lower one.

 

Besides you would be talking to the followers and propenents of this book. I will return and edit ths post with an url that will take you to a proper forum. but be warned they will call you on you plagiarism just as I have so be prepared to use ou own words and brain and stop faking like this words are yours.

 

Here you go lil' warrior. this will take you to Beliefnet's page listing all their dedate and criticism forums. You will find dozens of Jewish and Christian groups to battle with, as well as Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, Pagans and so many more. I spend a lot of time there on the Evangelical Debate board promoting aham brahmasmi, reincarnation, animals have souls etc. so please avoid that one. I am trying to bring in verse from Sri Isopanishad and the gita with links to vedabase.net and I would not appreciate presence.

http://beliefnet.com/boards/boards_main.AllCategories.asp?Category=129

 

Build Bridges Not Walls

 

Have fun

[anadi 0]

"It seems to me you are just grasping at straws Anadi. "

 

thank you, for your proving it.

 

let's have a look on your comparisons.

Take the cows. You cannot compare books with cows.

And take whatever you put it as arguments, like clothes.

In the spiritual world your clothes and your ornaments are not different from yourself.

 

As for the need of books, as an instrument to convey or preserve information, I've never heard that in heaven they would need it.

As for the description in the "revelation" about the opening of "the book" and seeing in it what will happen, not reading it, it seems rather like a mistical or technological medium and less like a book.

As for the spiritual world, there, there is no future and no past that one is concern on, no interests in books, but to live the reality, and no idea about maya.

 

As for the content of what allegedly has been seen in "the book with seven seals" we will see the plagiarism of inserting "the lamb" in the apocalypse.

 

 

[anadi 0]

 

Some pages back i offered a quote from Prabhupada where he instructs that his followers should not be offensive to the Bible as it is in pursuance of the vedic version. You ignored it of course.

 

 

 

The bible is not in pursuance of the vedic version.

-knowledge about the soul- all twisted

-knowledge about bhagavan - mistery

-guru tattva - twisted

-diksa - siksa - all twisted

-knowledge about bhakti abhideya - twisted

-shakti tattva - mistery

-vaikuntha - identified with heavens

.....

You ignored it of course.

 

[theist 1]

 

Hamsadüta: Not yet. No.

 

Prabhupäda: Why? You do that. They should be given that. You should avoid chanting, every one of you, ten kinds of offenses. The first offense is to decry the scriptures, Vedas. To accept authority of Vedas. Not to accept or decrying scriptures. Vedas means the book of transcendental knowledge. Not only Bhagavad-gétä, even Bible or Koran, they are also, although Bhagavad-gétä... Higher or secondary or primary, that is different. But whenever there is information of God, that is scripture, recognized. So we are concerned with the Vedas. So anyway, other scripture which is giving information of God scientifically or accepted by persons, that is also Vedas. One should not blaspheme the Vedas. This is first offense, to blaspheme. And satäà nindä, those who are preaching the message of God, they should not be blasphemed.

 

 

[Gauracandra 1]

My comparisons are entirely valid. A book is used to convey or preserve information. Ok, we don't need that in the spiritual world according to you. Fine.

 

You say "Take the cows. You cannot compare books with cows." Why can't I compare books with cows. If we are talking about things in the spiritual world that may or may not exist, then what need is there for cows? You don't need to drink milk in the spiritual world because there is no hunger. Do you need cows for companionship? Why? Shouldn't the spiritual world be blissful, with or without cows? If not, isn't that a deficiency of the spiritual world? You make an assumption that because Vaisnava theology says cows are in the spiritual world, that is therefore correct. But if Christians say books are in the spiritual world that is false. Why? You have no basis except speculation.

 

Another example: Clothes are used for modesty purposes and for protection against the elements. So why do we need this in the spiritual world? Are spiritual residents immodest? Would they succumb to lusty desires if they didn't wear clothing? Or perhaps they are trying to stop from getting cold, because the spiritual world is subject to nature?

 

You excuse these examples by saying something like "In the spiritual world your clothes and your ornaments are not different from yourself." Really? Pretty easy cop out. You simply make a statement, that is not philosophically neutral (ie. you take your Vaisnava view and assume it is correct) without proving why it is correct. Christians can say the same thing if they want.

 

You continue to say "As for the spiritual world, there, there is no future and no past that one is concern on, no interests in books, but to live the reality, and no idea about maya."

 

So you are telling me that if the gopis wanted to write poetry about Krishna in a book, and share that book with one another, that they are NOT ALLOWED TO DO THIS BECAUSE BOOKS CAN NEVER EXIST IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD? I'm sorry, I just don't think you know that. I think you are just speculating that books cannot exist in the spiritual world.

 

By the way, good point Theist about the carrots. I remember some Gaudiya Math devotees making a big deal about how eating carrots is tantamount to eating cow flesh. Lets see, you can't have books in heaven, and you are never allowed to eat carrots. Odd philosophy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist 1]

Yeah that was funny. Carrots are cows and carrot juice is drinking blood. On par at least with the Earth is flat.

[krsna 3]

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gHari 0]

Raw carrots - as repulsive as sushi !

 

 

[theist 1]

What do you mean yuck? That's a good looking herd.

[anadi 0]

 

But whenever there is information of God, that is scripture, recognized

 

 

 

False information about God is bad than no information? No. At least there is an idea that there is something which is not of this world. Really? One who learned the wrong way is more difficult to be learned that the one, did learned at all.

What is the information about the "Big Unknown" which is undescribed in the bible, and the pauline doctrine?

 

Very mangnanimous, and for a theistic understanding should be sound enough, to put the bible, a sheere fraud, as part of the vedic literature.

 

"I have understood that one obtains supreme spiritual benefit by drinking the liquid rasa of sri krishna nama with great faith, so I will chant Sri Nama when I have understood sambhanda jnana very clearly.

Babaji:That is the best way. You must have a sound understanding of sambhanda jnana."

from Jaiva Dharma Ch4 Vaisnava Dharma is nitya dharma

[theist 1]

That is Prabhupada's quote you are ridiculing. Perhaps you need more carrots to improve your eye sight. Just maybe there is something you are not understanding.