Is bible a holy book?

[Guest guest]

Did you see what Bhaktivinode Thakura says in Sri Tattva Viveka about Jesus, bible etc?

[Guest guest]

I am - some idea, not the Personality of Godhead

 

Yogeçvara: He says when Moses saw the burning bush and he asked the fire, “Who are you?” The fire said, “I am what I am.” “Who I am?” that’s a question that you are going to have to answer by your own meditations.

[...]

 

Prabhupäda: No, that also we say. But we must have the program. Just like he say that “Who am I?” So at least one must know who he is. If this vague reply is “I am what I am...” If I ask you, “you come,” so “Who are you, sir?” then if he says, “I am what I am,” is that the proper answer? (laughter) This is nonsense answer. If I ask you, “Who are you?” If he says, “I am what I am,” is that the proper answer? (730813r2.par)

 

Prabhupada: "There is no difference between chanting and hearing or remembering or worshiping in the temple. Çravaëaà kértanaà viñëoù smaraëaà päda-sevanam, arcanam [sB 7.5.23]. The temple worship is called arcanam. Vandanam, offering prayers. The Christians, the Muhammadans, they offer prayer. Of course, not to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but impersonal feature or some idea. But that prayer is also one of the processes of bhakti. Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his process of worship has to be considered in the category of bhakti-yoga (740422sb.hyd)

 

Prabhupada: Now, take for example the Muhammadan name Allah. Allah means the greatest. So God is greatest. So that greatest conception is this Brahman conception. And so far Christian, I don’t think they have got any particular name. They say God (690512rc.col)

[Guest guest]

Exodus: God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I Am has sent me to you.'

This is my name for ever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation

 

Before Abraham was, I am (Jn.8:58)

 

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever(Heb.13:8)

[anadi 0]

 

on this forum this loving aspect seems to be completely absent

 

 

 

Love is not to say "my dear shambu" oh you have such nice ...and your words are so melodious...and your ideas...

Love is to show what the sastra says, to open the eyes of people who are not so abstinate in their speculation, people who are very attached to these speculation. How can they love you? They will try denigrate you, as you yourself are trying here by implying: "oh you speak about asociation with devotee, but where is your love?" and you continue denigrating by saying: "Oh, you are qouting from from the translation by BV Narayana Maharaja (which explains a lot...).

 

What kind of loving exchange can I have with such a person as you? Even I would love you, where is the exchange? The exchange is in your words: "Whatever you may think or remark, I don't care at all."

 

 

For example, first you seem to praise somebody by telling him he is a "senior devotee" and next you show your utter disrespect by suggesting that this very same person is not chanting enough

 

 

 

I've just asked how many rounds that prabhu chants. Why?

Because he himself sugested to me that I should better chant...So my question is..."but how many rounds do you chant, if you give me this advice...with the implication: do you know how many rounds do I chant daily, as part of my saddhana?

[shambu 0]

No, what's he saying there?

[shambu 0]

"Love is to show what the sastra says, to open the eyes of people who are not so abstinate in their speculation, people who are very attached to these speculation. How can they love you? They will try denigrate you, as you yourself are trying here by implying: "oh you speak about asociation with devotee, but where is your love?" and you continue denigrating by saying: "Oh, you are qouting from from the translation by BV Narayana Maharaja (which explains a lot...)."

 

How can you possibly think that someone is out to denigrate you? You are undoubtedly an advanced devotee, impeccable in both good character and behaviour, endowed with the highest and purest conception of tattva-siddhanta. Please forgive us our offenses and teach us some more!

[gHari 0]

This very same question is posed by the four Kumaras and answered directly by Krsna in another thread here, oddly enough at this very point in time. Concluding the Srimad-Bhagavatam we find this summary of the créme de la créme of the Vedas so eloquently extracted by HaMsa, the Swan incarnation of Sri Krsna.

 

He concludes that it is foolish to even ask God, "Who are You?", but He answers anyway in order to reveal the cream of the cream of all that is good. You will see how in a sense that only Krsna Is - He is the Supreme (and only) existence, the Supreme (and only) "I Am". We are simply little "i am"s whose "i am" is predicated completely upon His "I Am"; we are the enjoyed, while He is the Supreme Enjoyer; He is the only independent, while we are always the dependents; He is as He wills, while we are as He wills; He is that He is, while we are that He would have us be. Indeed our "i am" is in a sense simply a tiny fragment of His "I Am", yet inconceivably, simultaneously, we are uniquely separate entities.

 

It is perhaps a long deep read, but definitely one of the most powerful reads anyone will ever encounter. It is the best use of your time right now.

gHari

[Guest guest]

Very same question you say. Yes the great Bhagvata reciter Ghari has spoken.

 

It's astonishing the crooked means you people use in order to support your selfish interests.

[Guest guest]

Why prabhupada says different things about bible, jesus?

 

Prabhupäda: And here you see big, big scholars that “Yes, here is Indian statement for the whole...” There are many saintly persons. Who cares for your Bible? And Bhagavad-gétä all over the world... Even if you take Dr. Radhakrishnan, elected as authority, he has tried to comment on Bhagavad-gétä, not on your Bible. Has he done? Who cares for your Bible? He may speak favorably or unfavorably, that is Bhagavad-gétä. But he has not spoken a word upon the Bible. Who cares for you?

[...]

 

Prabhupäda: Jesus may be fool. That doesn’t mean everyone should be fool (770111tt.ida)

[anadi 0]

 

"Love is to show what the sastra says, to open the eyes of people who are not so abstinate in their speculation, people who are very attached to these speculation. How can they love you? They will try denigrate you, as you yourself are trying here by implying: "oh you speak about asociation with devotee, but where is your love?" and you continue denigrating by saying: "Oh, you are qouting from from the translation by BV Narayana Maharaja <font color="blue"> (which explains a lot...)</font color> ."

 

How can you possibly think that someone is out to denigrate you? You are undoubtedly an advanced devotee, impeccable in both good character and behaviour, endowed with the highest and purest conception of tattva-siddhanta. Please forgive us our offenses and teach us some more!

 

 

 

Besides the tactic of

1. changing the subject

2. denigrating the opponent

you are using also the third tactic of the demoniac teachings:

3. try to ridicule your opponent.

 

if you don't have arguments on the subject, which in this case was the loving association that you are pretensly asking from your opponent, but in the same post you are saying "anyway I don't care about what you are saying" showing a duplicious character.

[theist 1]

Consulting guru is done every time we read a Prabhupada purport.

[anadi 0]

The answer in the thread "death for bhakti".

[anadi 0]

 

It's astonishing the crooked means you people use in order to support your selfish interests.

 

 

 

I just wonder that you understood the nature of Q-hari, big dissapointment.

 

But his deceitfuness is herein more evident:

 

 

This very same question is posed by the four Kumaras and answered directly by Krsna in another thread here, oddly enough at this very point in time. Concluding the Srimad-Bhagavatam we find this summary of the créme de la créme of the Vedas so eloquently extracted by HaMsa, the Swan incarnation of Sri Krsna.

 

He concludes that it is foolish to even ask God, "Who are You?", ...He is the Supreme (and only) existence, the Supreme (and only) "I Am".

 

 

Maybe you forgot to read the article to the end?!

Because Hamsa Avatar reveals His identity:

Please understand that I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead, ViSNu, and that I have appeared before you desiring to explain your actual religious duties.

 

 

He doesn't say "I am that I am" although He gives a quite impersonal type of self realization in His speech on sankya and astanga yoga.

 

Besides this I have't found your "I am that I am"in the King James Bible or in any other version or translation:

King James Bible

Exodus

3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

http://king-james-bible.classic-literature.co.uk/exodus/ebook-page-03.asp

 

 

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

From CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY

http://www.carm.org/kjv/Ex/Ex_3.htm

4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here am I."

"I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/awr_1_2.htm

Moses and the Burning Bush

 

5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob."

." http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=exodus+3

 

This are some modified translations nowadays.

 

How should have been?

 

When Yahveh appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush, and announced himself as "the God of thy fathers," he was a total stranger to Moses. How do I know? Read the account. It doesn't take a scholar to read where Moses ASKS who's talking. No, Moses wasn't merely surprised at the voice&#8230;he simply didn't know what was going on.

Moses did not know this Yahveh, and had never heard of him. After some intermission, the God came directly to the point, and declared-here are the exact words-one of the most notorious falsities in the Hebrew text:

 

"And elohim spake unto Moses, and said unto him., anoki Yahveh -- I am the Lord!

"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of el-shaddai, but by my name Yahveh (JEHOVAH) was I not known to them." (Ex. 6:2, 8.)

 

The Hebrew God for the first time since the world began, is "revealed" to mankind by the "name" of Yahveh, here first appearing in the Bible translations, and there printed as JEHOVAH in capital letters; for more vivid and awe-inspiring impression.

 

But this is a notorious lie-since the "churchianism" pretends that Moses did write the first five books of the Hebrew text, where in Genesis 2:4, the name YAHVEH first appears; "in the day that Yahveh-elohim made the earth and the heavens." Its first recorded use as a mystical personage, was when Eve "conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from Yahveh-the Lord." (Gen. 4:1.)

[Guest guest]

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations

 

http://king-james-bible.classic-literature.co.uk/exodus/ebook-page-03.asp

 

Yahveh means I am. Some vague idea, not the personality of Godhead.

[anadi 0]

 

"Yahveh means I am. Some vague idea, not the personality of Godhead."

 

 

 

You personally have "some vague idea" but no evidence for this type of translation, I am that I am, that I have overseen.

 

What kind of translation is this one, which contradicts the tetragammaton YHVH which should mean that this a Name, the name of the tribal-God of Israel.

What kind of God is this one? this kind:

 

"4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them "

 

This kind of God seems to be under the influence of material modes of nature, as he would be under the spell of maya, being jelous on other "gods" or demigods?!

Whereas Sri Krishna says that the one who worships the demigods, they also worship Him, although in a wrong way.

 

Regarding the "idolatry" propagated by such a "God" or demi-god, who knows?... Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya-dharma and Idolatry:

 

 

"Vaisnavas is to worship the fully conscious, eternal Deity form of

Bhagavän. Therefore, idolatry (but-parast) is not part of the

Vaisnava doctrine.

One should clearly understand that the Vaisnavasworship of

the Deity is not idolatry. One cannot prohibit Deity worship

simply because some books forbid idolatry; everything depends on

the quality of faith in the worshiper's heart. The more one's heart

can transcend the influence of matter, the more competent one

will be to worship the pure form of the Deity.

The more one is absorbed in thoughts of matter, the more he

will be implicated in the worship of matter. Although he may claim

that the Lord is formless, his heart is still filled with thoughts of

matter. It is very difficult for the general mass of people to worship

the pure form of the Deity, for such worship is strictly a matter of

personal qualification. In other words, only one who has been

elevated beyond the influence of matter can transcend thoughts

of material form. I sincerely request you to consider this subject

carefully.

Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.84.13) says:

"One who considers this corpse-like body, comprised of the

three elements vata, pita, and kapha, to be his real self; who

regards his wife, children, and others as his very own; who

considers mundane forms made of earth, stone, or wood to

be worshipable; and who regards mere water to be a place

of pilgrimage but who does not consider the bhagavadbhaktas

to be more dear than his very self, to be his very

own, to be worshipable, and to be places of pilgrimage; such

a person, though human, is no better than an ass among

animals."

It is said in the Gita (9.25):

Those who worship matter go to the realms of matter.

 

Those whose spiritual qualification is extremely low cannot understand

the pure, spiritual state of existence. Even when such

people meditate on the Lord within their minds, the form that

they imagine is material, and meditating on a material form within

the mind is the same as constructing a form of physical elements,

and regarding it as the Lord's form. That is why it is beneficial for

a person on this level of eligibility to worship the Deity. Factually

speaking, it would be most inauspicious for the general class of

people if there were no worship of Deities. When ordinary jévas

become inclined toward the service of the Lord, they become despondent

if they cannot see the Deity form of the Lord before

them. In religions where there is no worship of the Deity, members

who are on a low level of spiritual qualification are highly materialistic

and oblivious to Isvara, or in a state of distraction.

Therefore, worship of the Deity is the foundation of religion for

all humanity."

[Guest guest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YHVH

 

According to one Jewish tradition, the Tetragrammaton is related to the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah´ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become”. This particular name for God is rendered as THE LORD (in small caps) in many modern translations of the Bible; two notable exceptions are the American Standard Version (1901) and The Jerusalem Bible (1966).

 

In recent years, a debate has grown over the derivation and meaning of this name. In this tradition, "Yahweh" is often rendered as meaning "I am the One Who Is." Indeed, this last fits nicely with the admonition from Yahweh of the Burning Bush to Moses to tell the sons of Israel that "I AM has sent you." Some suggest: "I AM the One I AM." This may also fit the interpretation of Yahweh as "He Causes to Become."

[theist 1]

When talking to Christians(or anyone for that matter)one should be aware of his motive in doing so. Just wanting to defeat some conceptions with one's own conceptions is not a very high thing.

 

An intelligent speaker will first be able to assess the position of the other person and speak in such a way as to draw that person closer to the Lord. If he can only encourage that person to increase his prayer life a little he will do that.

 

A sectarianist cannot do that because he only sees God in his own temple church or mosque, and thinks his style of approaching God is the only way there is. therefore he seeks to hear the other pledge allegiance to what he has to say and considers that a victory.

 

The difference between inspiring someone in God consciousness and beating them down with quotes and philosophy is rather vast. It is the occupation of small insecure minds to seek to dominate rather than inspire, to beat down rather than lift up.

 

This latest tirade by anadi is really symtomatic of something a little deeper I suspect. Hopefully he will become aware of the source of this drama and then learn to let it go.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Im popeye the sailor man.

 

Sorry, I couldnt help it.

 

Funny, when I delve into the lila of Lord Jesus Christ, I never go to all the greek, and the YHVH and all that stuff. I guess Im into the more simple things, like Israel meaning the wife of God, and another Name of Mother Mary. I guess I dont care too much about constintine or all the political christians who destroyed just about 90% of everything written about Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I guess this is why I only care about the story-telling of the ethiopian kings, the Kebra Nagast, the story of the pearl.

 

Sometimes I think those who try to figure out what someone centuries ago meant by their bible codes and illiterate gobbledygook waste alot of time.

 

In other words, I only know about Jesus because devotees speak of him, I hear from them, this is okay by me. Ill take their imperfectly composed words as long as the bhakti gets through.

 

here is a vision I had on the subject, see if there is any bhakti there, and Ill gladly hear from devotees like theist and gHari, scholars, indeed, but most of all, devotees, who see scholarship as secondary to real love of god.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Dialogue with Dismas

 

mahaksadasa c. 2002

 

 

My name was Mgabe, and I must now break my silence. I have been granted a memory from my past life, and I must tell the story. I do not pretend to be a hero, in fact, I was the most abominable of human beings. However, despite my life of heinous crimes of murder, robbery, and causing untold misery to others for many years, two events occurred that defy explanation. This story is not about my activities two thousand years ago, but the events that I now tell of can only be explained by relating my history to a certain degree.

 

I was born in the fertile Afar Region of what is now known as the Horn of Afrika. My poverty stricken parents were both killed by highwaymen, led by Dismas, the Thief. Despite his evil intent, he personally rescued me from the burning hut. He was uncontrollably angry at the failure of this exploit, so he rescued me only to have something to show for two difficult murders. He took me under his wing, and I was his apprentice bandit. He protected me often even by killing his own partners in crime. His leadership was ruthlessly ingrained into me while I was taught the nefarious trade.

 

When I was seventeen years of age, our troup, led by Dismas, was operating near the great pyramids of Giza Plateau. Our targets were anyone travelling facing the sun, and the sun was a perfect concealment. We used the element of surprise to hijack our victims, and we became quite wealthy taking what we pleased from desert travelers. Occasionally, we would spare their lives if no resistance to our demands occurred, but even a crying child was enough reason to leave them all dead for the birds of prey and scavengers. We were twenty strong and well armed and well fed soldiers, and only once in twelve years of my membership did I see one of our own harmed by a weary traveller.

 

As invincible as our troup had become, there was never a good reason to change our methodology. Whatever goods, gold, spices, jewels, currency, silks and tapestries, entered our part of the upper Sahara, these goods were seen as our possessions, and possession came quickly. We had amassed many beasts of burden to carry the loads we obtained to our oasis, and no one with any sense tried to curtail our activities. So formidable was our group that on more than one occasion, we even defeated advance scout troups from the great Empire Armies from the North of the great sea. We had man-slaves and the women we took alive were ours as we wished. Our invincibility was disturbed only once during our fifteen years in Giza, and this disturbance was only experianced by our leader, Dismas.

 

It was an early morning, and the season of days was in full bloom. We were to the east, and, as usual, our intended victims were coming our way and could not see us. The travelers, from miles away, were only a family, so we did not expect much from our heist. A beast and two adults, and one infant, were clearly noted by our scouts. As we surprised them, the adults showede no emotion whatsoever, no panic, no fear, no trepidation of any description. Dismas personally supervised this particular attack.

 

The family was ordered to dismount the beast and present their belongings to us. The family quickly complied. Hundreds of balls of myrrh gum were unloaded from the beast, bars and coins of gold, and an assortment of other fine spices was also carried. Such wealth in the desert was unheard of, and we immediately thought that they had raided our own stockpiles. Dismas asked the middle aged gentleman, "Where did all this loot come from? Are you highwaymen like ourselves? Which caravan did you attack, and did anyone flee your small troup?"

 

The man answered, "I am a carpenter, and we are in the desert as exiles from the cruel Herod. The wealth you see here are gifts for our newborn son. The royal princes from the orient traveled far to present these gifts, deluded by the stars. We have no need of such things, but we use as barter to afford protection."

 

Dismas' men laughed, and started the attack. But as they loaded the bounty and began the murder of the victims, Dismas stopped them. The female traveler, the mother of the infant, was removed of her desert protection, and was revealed as the most perfect of women. The bandits wanted immediately to pillage her beauty, but Dismas became most angry. Five of the twenty bandits did not listen to Dismas, and he killed them on the spot. The rest of the men were in shock at the insanity displayed by their leader, and did not move. Dismas spoke to the woman, "Most beautiful woman, why are you with this old man and infant? Have you been taken against your will? I wish to protect you at once." The woman would respond to the calamitous event of the morning.

 

Dismas said to the woman traveller: "Oh Star of the Morning, why have I failed in my occupation? Your family faced the blazing sun, and we were upon you before we were noticed. Yet, I was blinded by an unknown radiance from where the sun has yet to travel. And now, I not only hesitate, I have killed my own people who were only accepting their share of this raid."

 

The young mother spoke to her confused captor, "I have possession of a Pearl. This gem is unseen by the commoner, and can only be perceived by the twice-born. As the Great Sea is to the West, so this Pearl has passed from generation to generation without any interference from the great sun of the orient. Your vision is your hesitation from your duty, and this has also allowed you to hear from me. I will tell you of your life, and upon hearing, you may decide to destroy or glorify the Pearl as you will.I cannot criticize your profession. The professions of those we flee are far worse than your own, for they are covert in their implication in human suffering. Promising protection, the kings ruthlessly pillage their wards, with untruthfulness, uncleanliness, avarice and evil, without any mercy in their hearts. While your troup may be hunted worldwide as outlaws, you deceive no one. When you arrive, you act as Death, and the event is swift. Our concern is that the quality of mercy is absent in the kings' tormentors of the people and the bandits of the highway as well. Your hesitation indicates an ember of mercy and justice that carries potential of rekindlement into a blazing fire, the very luster of the Pearl of my being. Therefore, you will be successful in all your endeavors and will have no fear of the kings while you recognize life as different from the bounty you take as you will."

 

Dismad replied in wonderment, "I will kill no more unless to defend myself. Your words fulfill lessons from thousands of nightmares of screaming corpses. As a fool, I was born into my profession. My father always killed those whose valuables he sought, and I had only known this way. But as he died in my arms from the spear of a king's soldier, I felt a pang of remorse. For fifteen years, I slaughtered many, and only spared my apprentice Mgabe. I now not only spare your family, your bounty remains intact in your possession. My only request is that you tell me of this unseen Pearl."

 

The mother replied, "I am Mary of Axum. My husband, Yusif, has won me from the temple of Solomon. His wife had died from plague, and his children, James and Didymous Thomas, are in the shelter of Salome, the midwife, in Palestine. The evil Herod has targeted all the newborns of David and Solomon and executes them without regard. We have escaped through Sinai, and now wander in exile until we hear of the king's death. Our patron, the famed seaman Arathemia, will be awaiting our arrival in Alexandria. His service to Caesar surpasses even that of Herod, and a great war is certain if we are denied safe passage to Nazareth."

 

"Your demonstration of mercy indicates the death of our common enemy, Herod. Perhaps you could escort us to the sea, and we will pay you nicely for your service. After our evening meals, I will impart to you the significance of treasure not of this world."

 

Dismas at once agreed to the Mother's proposal. He spoke to his troops: "I have offered protection for this caravan. I have killed our friends for their safety, and you may rebel if you wish. I am leaving with this caravan as their soldier, and Mgabe has agreed to join me. You are dispersed, and whatever is considered mine at our base camp now belongs to your new leader, who should be recognized by reluctance to kill human beings. Your robbery is approved, but murder is now forbidden. I will return in two moon cycles, and we will leave this desert for the cedars and olive groves of the North. Do not attempt to deter us, for your own good."

 

The exiles continued their journey fully protected by Dismas and myself, and the troops fell into disarray. They did not attack Dismas, but followed at a distance for many days. Eventually, drawn by their profession, they must have returned to the Giza Plain, but myself and my master Dismas never saw any of them ever again.

 

Yusif and Dismas rode ahead while I led the beast of the Mother and Child. She did not speak to me, but allowed me to hear her sweel lullabies to the infant. That first evening, Dismas told me of his conversation with Yusif. It seems that this carpenter was the true king of his people, as direct descendant of King David, conquerer of the Philistine Nation. His kingdom is now torn, and the Makabean Rebellion marked 500 years of fraternal tribes at war with each other. The House of David was banished to Nazareth withoput power, and Herod was subserviant to the Roman Caesar as titular king. The mother is a direct daughter of King Solomon, and Afarian as well. Solomon's wealth has been plundered, and the God of Solomon is no longer worshipped. It seems, according to Yusif, that the infant is the new king, but that the kingdom he will rule is beyond all conceivable realms of this world. I did not understand any of this and asked Dismas to explain the meaning of God.

 

Dismas said as the sun departed into the western sea, "I am truely sorry that I harmed your parents. You love me as a father, but I am only a criminal. I do not understand anything Yusif has told me, not does the Axumite mother make any sense to me. They may well be insane for all I know, but one thing moves and keeps me. Since we first saw their silhouette at dawn, my hair has stood on end and tears have incessantly flowed from my eyes. I must know of the Pearl."

 

So I slept, thinking of possessing a Pearl that cannot be seen. As I drifted, her sweet lullibies filled my ears and my heart.

 

As I slept that night, a troublesome dream came to me. A small scorpion came from a rock and rose to the sky, growing to an enormous serpant. As the serpant grew, it began to devour the firmament, and lightning and explosions filled the night sky. The woman of the caravan we led then confronted the serpant, who now had seven hoods. The serpant resisted, but when the woman placed her foot up[on one of the heads, he became docile. She spoke to the serpant, and though the words of dreams are seldom remembered, I not only remembered then, but now in my different existance two thousand years later, the voice is still clear.

 

"Serpant, you have been given a home within the earth, yet you are not satisfied. You seek the Father that you have mistaken as your enemy. But He is not your servant, and will never come to you by your demand. What you destroy to get His attention is insignificant, for the whole firmament is but a hair on His head."

 

The serpant cried out, "But I have a will. Is it not proper to fulfill desire at all costs, knowing that cruel Death eventually rules us all?"

 

The Mother replied, "Proiper action for one is victimization of all others, so ideas of proper behavior are simply concoctions of imperfection. It is a fact that all we see will soon face Death, but this event is not the cessation of existance. Actions done without knowledge of the quality of life are not satisfaction of desire, rather they only increase desire to the point of frustrating insanity. You may devour the entire universe, yet you remain hungry. Therefoire, the wise always accept that desire has no satisfaction."

 

The serpant, upon hearing these words, became Dismas, and replied, "Dear Comforter of the Afflicted, I understand now that my ways do not bring happiness. I have accumulated more than anyone, yet only possess emptiness as a trophy."

 

I awokw wondering about my master Dismas, who was already preparing for the day's journey. He was explaining to Yusif and Mary the dangers ahead while we ate the morning meal. Mary gave her first description of her newborn child.

 

"As you have witnessed, there is no danger for us. Just as you thought of yourself yesterday as our tormentor, today you falsely assume that you are our protector. Neither is the case. You are a servant and never a master, and though you resist the more powerful voice within you, such resistance does not affect the outcome. God is the Being you speak to when alone, and He always gives opportunity for action."

 

Dismas said, "Who are you to pretend to teach. I do not understand a thing you say."

 

Mary said kindly, "I, too, am a servant, yet my service is not wasted labor. I serve my Son here, who is the Light of the World. He entered my body on His own accord, and I accepted without protest. He is here for one reason only, and will be eternally glorified as the Deliverer of Dismas."

 

Dismas asked, "This infant is my salvation? This is nonsense. Since when does any supernatural being, god or otherwise, have anything to do with a desert thief?"

 

Mary said, "Many will always think of my Son as the salvation of the pious masses, but only a very few specially empowered people wsill take Him as personal and intimate without caring for the approval of the other breathing corpses. He has come not for the confident, but for those who are miserably lost, not unlike your self."

 

Dismas smiled humbly, but decided there to abandon the caravan. We travelled with them only to the next village, still many days from Alexandria. As we left, Dismas said to Mary and Yusif, "Farewell, and I wihs I knew of your serenity. I have never witnessed such equal-mindedness. Though I would like to emulate, it is beyond my nature. I hpoe to take only your favor with me." We noticed many people from the village coming to offer them homage, so we quickly departed, tears flowing from our eyes.

 

Alone like never before, Dismas and I took refuge in the desert. He knew of every oasis, and we decided together that we would not gather our forces. We decided that the Kingdom of Judea would be our home, but we would not arrive there for another ten years, when I was 25 and Dismas was 37. We plied our new trade for subsistance. We killed only in self defence, and we refrained frfom raiding families. We robbed the trade routes and centurians by stealth, and lived comfortably. We were equals from the night that we abandoned the Holy Family, as Dismas had told me.

 

"The holy lady told me that to be a master of another was illusion, so we are now partners, friends and brothers. I do not know this God she speaks of as if He were her husband, but I do know the incessant vcoice inside. Do you hear voices, Mgabe?"

 

I replied, "Master, I mean friend, never is there a time when lively discussion is not taking place in my being. Sometimes this conversation is interrupted by my mind who hates these talks, but there is, certainly, another Being who never leaves me."

 

Dismas said, "So the woman knows the TRUE. It is my enemy mind who made me leave before she described the Pearl. We must go to Judea, maybe the wise men there know of this Pearl. Our lives are changed forever by these intended victims and we must never forget them. Do you remember the song she sang to her child, that King of Kings."

 

I replied, "As I remember the Afarian language of my parents, I caught only a few words. She called herself the Temple of the Almighty and something about how she is now worshipped by the Creator Himself as His refuge. She sang about her son's father, and how the Father's will is being done through Mother and Son."

 

Dismas said, "Yusif was thed most powerful man I have ever met, yet he referred to his son as a child not of his doing, that his marriage to the Axumite woman was for future children, not this one. He said the child was born consecrated from the Temple of Solomon. Yusif did not speak much, but we are fortunate we did not attack him. He could have killed us all with his glance, and probably would have been as nonchalant as he was in pretence of weakness. I suggest that these were Gods of the Desert, or it was all a dream."

 

Many years passed, and we were informal warriors against the evil king of Judea as well as the Empire's centurians. We were very successful looting those who were described by the Gods we met in the desert as a greater evil. We operated near the Great Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. Both of us were old now, over 30 years had passed since we gave up our old army on the Plains of Giza.. Perhaps old age had depleated our skills, and eventually, we were arrested by Roman forces. I was released because my skin was black, and the Romans feared the magic of the Afarians. But Dismas was sentenced to die at Clavary Hill. He and another were tied to trees and left to die. I could not rescue him, but I was allowed to be there with him during his ordeal. The other man was angry and resentful, but Dismas seemed to have a certain peace about him.

 

He said, "Mgabe, our lives have become successful by the wishes of the Morning Star who came in the desert. We never gave up hope of finding that invisible Pearl she spoke of. We sang her song and have been happy. She told us that death does not affect life, so I have no fear. This world is better off without me, as I have done cruel things, but she said I will be delivered by her Son. I know this will come to pass."

 

A commotion erupted as hundreds of Judeans came up the hill. A man was being tortured and then was brutally nailed to a beam by hands and feet and placed between the trees of Dismas and the angry rebel. Dismas could not look at the man as his gaze was fixed upon a crying woman in the crowd. He cried out, "I have found the Pearl!" The woman was none other than the Morning Star, the Goddess of the Desert we had met over 30 years ago, who had never left our hearts. Her radiant beauty was untouched by time, and her son, the King of Kings, was being murdered by the mob.

 

Dismas did not speak to me directly again, but he turned to the One called the Nazarine, who was hanging next to him. The other man, a vile creature, was taunting the son of Mary, goading him and mocking him as if he finally agreed with the murderous mob below him. He shouted in a horrible voice, "Hey miracle worker, save me and yourself, and we will lay waste to all of them."

 

Dismas cried out to the rebel, "You are the evil voice of my mind that always keeps me from hearing the TRUE. Be silent!" The rebel died instantly at Dismas command, and Dismas turned to the Nazarine, and in a quiet prayerful voice, said, "We meet again, but you have never forsaken me. Your mother told me of your glory, but I took you to be just an infant. She told me of how you remain invisible to all but the twice-born, but you can show yourself as you please. I am but a fool and a criminal, and I see no injustice in the way I am facing Death. But you, dear sir? There is no crime in you, and the greatest injustice of all time takes place."

 

"Your mother told me that death has no effect on life. I think you have tricked these rulers into this action. I think you are here to demonstrate life as indestructable. And your mother also told me that your mission is for my benefit alone. As I face this Death, I cling to life wanting nothing other than to remain forever with the Holy Family I rejceted in my youth. Please overlook my evil works, but keep me in mind." Dismas was crying profusely, and the Nazarine inquired, "Is your pain unbearable now?"

 

Dismas replied, "My arms are only connected by the skin, and a fire burns me from within, but my tears are not for this. My tears are warm, and this indicates a joy never before felt."

 

The Nazarine comforted him by saying, "You have appeared to render service to my Father, as have I. Our connection is beyond this reaqlm of Death. Your guilt is illusion, but serves to purify your heart. I have come to open a great gate, but I have no one to enter while I complete my Father's desire. As you are no longer under the jurisdiction of Death, you will be the first in Paradise. All who you love will soon be there, in fact, on this very day you will be with me and my Father. Your faith in the Word of the servants of my Father, this alone, has purchased the greatest wealth of the Pearl. You see before you the voice of the TRUE withion your heart who never abandons you."

 

Dismas tried to explain his unworthiness, but the Nazarine continued, "You took a small step which is all my Father saw. The greatest holy men of Judea did nothing to save us, but though you wanted something else, you gave us protection. Your running away did nothing to deter my Father's stride toward you. My greatest disciples below, watching, do so in hiding. Other than my brothers, James and Thomas, my mother, that Magadaline woman, and of course, Salome, the midwife, all my disciples still fear this Death. They are yet immature. Yet you, a criminal, are being torn by Death, yet your sadness is not for yourself. You cry for those who cannot see what you now know. Therefore, I see no disqualification. My Father commands love, but you need no command for what your heart is now made of. Rest now, Dismas, for you alone are the successful completion of my Father's desire." Dismas smiled sweetly, and died then and there.

 

The Nazarine looked skyward, saying, "Father, I drink from the cup of your Life. You have not forsaken me, for you alone have arranged for this Dismas, who has done evil in this world, to be purged from all sinful reaction. Please give all my followers this nbectar as well." As the Nazarine passed away, the firmament opened up. The earth heaved mightily, and the assassins fled to no avail. Many of the mob dropped dead on site, their hair turinig to ash, their skin dropping from their bones.

 

I turned away from Calvary Hill to see Mother Mary, who shed no more tears, who smiled gently. The Magdaline woman and Salome, the Afarian midwife who comforted the older sons of Yusif, tended to the remains of the Nazarine. I took down my friend Dismas, and placed him upon our beast, and took his body back to the desert beyond Mount Sinai.

 

I had heard later about the glories of the Nazarine, how he rose up from the dead, but I cared not to listen. I returned to the Afar Triangle and never spoke again. I was regarded as insane, but my song was of the Pearl. In my form of Mgabe, I, too, passed away in due course of time, but I was not granted any memory of such events.

 

I live in this age, in this world, but Mgabe's story is now told. To call Dismas "the Good Thief" may not be accurate, for perhaps he incarnated with the Nazarine, Yusif and the Pearl as their vehicle of Pure Love. What I have related here is the TRUE, and is contained in full in the Names of the Father.

 

.....

 

In other words, Gurudeva patita pavana, thanx fer readin the truest story I ever told, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

 

[anadi 0]

and Ill gladly hear from devotees like theist and gHari, scholars, indeed, but most of all, devotees, who see scholarship as secondary to real love of god.

 

What is real love of god?

 

[anadi 0]

 

and Ill gladly hear from devotees like theist and gHari, scholars, indeed

 

 

In the other thread you attack me, accusing me that I would show erudition, just for the show?! You miss the svarupa laksana, the intrinsec meaning of those evidences.

 

But in this thread you praise theist and qHari for their erudition. Sorry, and this shows your bias and somehow your duplicity.

 

Erudition in itself is worth nothing, but in the begining of bhakti one should learn many many verses, and meditate on them while chanting (mantra may upasana) so that one's intelligence (differenciating capacity) will become sharp. And through this intelligence the knot of maya, which is tight in the mind, will be cut.

 

Evindently you see only the verses that I quote, as evidence for what I am saying, but not the verses are important, rather their authoritative opinion. And they are not so pleasing to your ears, unfortunely.

 

If you think that I want to boast with my insignificant knowledge you are wrong. I know how knowledge looks like, when all is manifested from within, and all the slokas come on your lips from their own accord.

[anadi 0]

Who has a Soul?

 

"In Genesis 1 is the account of the creation of the elohim-gods-on the fifth day, of "nephesh hayyah" which is "the moving creature that hath life," and of "nephesh hayyah-every living creature" out of the waters (1:20, 21); and on the sixth day of "nephesh hayyah-the living creature" out of the ground (1:24); and he gave to ha-adam-the-man dominion over "kol nephesh hagyah-everything wherein there is life," (1:30.)

 

The Hebrew text states that all animal living creatures are by God called "nephesh hayyah," literally "living soul".

 

In Chapter 2 is the history of ha-adam made from ha-adamah; and, in contrast to these lowly "living creatures" (nephesh hayyah), Yahveh-clohim "breathed into his nostrils nishmath hayyim -- (living breaths), and ha-adam became nephesh hayyah-a living soul". (2:7)

 

In Hebrew everywhere you read the word nephesh it simply means soul, and hayyah (living) is the feminine singular adjective from hai, life.

 

In the original Hebrew texts, Man was created exactly the same as the other animals. All had or were 'nephesh hayyah' or living souls.

 

Remember, tho, that the reason there are two creation stories is because two culture's stories of creation were woven together by the early Hebrew priestcraft.

 

Unknown scribes, in translation, made animals merely creatures, and "Creation's masterpiece, Man," became a "living soul." They falsely altered these plain words so as to deceive us into believing a special God-breathed soul is in man which is completely different from animal that merely perishes to dust.

 

The implication of this is that someone has fraudulently decided that we are a special creation that has a soul, and eliminated the actual words of what Genesis says. Now all other animals don't have a soul. According to the story, all things that live have a soul. So what happened here? Forgery."

 

source "…and the truth shall set you free" by David Icke

 

[anadi 0]

 

An intelligent speaker will first be able to assess the position of the other person .

 

 

 

You can continue to denigrate me, I'am used to it, but I'll fight your demoniac nature with all my power.

 

You are trying to distroy bhakti by your attitude of just asking the sastra, and pretending you understood what is written in it. You don't understand.

This is not the way bhakti goes. Never.

Go to guru, go to the realized soul, and than you will see how much you do understand "at least thorough the head".

tad vidhi pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnana jnaninas tattva darshina

 

upadeksyanti te jnana which means that the one who realized the truth, the tattva darshi, he will bring you near upadesha to the knowledge.

[Guest guest]

ok given all the evidence Anadi has put forward it has become obvious to those amongst us that were ignorant before that the Biblic texts have a % of human writing in them i.e. they are not 100% God's words.

 

So let's stop bickering here - Anadi DOES have a point in that he is just putting an argument forward and we should not ridicule him for it.

 

I don't think Anadi is actually trying to denigrate Christ since that would make him a hypocrite, given all of his responses to those who have antagonised him in this thread. He is, however, trying to denigrate an entire religion based on their Holy Book, which to me sounds like denigrating Christ. Anyway, I'm sure Anadi has a counter to that so i will say no more.

 

Also, Anadi is trying to convince his Brother-in-Law of the fallacy of the Biblical texts. Fair enough. Conversion has played a strong part in ISKCON over the years and whether that has degraded or upgraded its stature in society and its reputation i don't know. So again i will say no more. Except that Anadi has not made clear his motives for "Bible Bashing" - Anadi, were you a Christian before you became a Vaishnava?

 

Anyway you've made your point - Biblical texts are not completely God-written. Let's leave it at that and not create animosity in this forum by saying someone is denigrating someone else, etc.

 

So my question is - what's the point in carrying on making the same point over and over and over again? We GET IT. But most of us aint Christian so we realise that whatever is said in the Bible does NOT effect us. We have SB - ENOUGH SAID!

 

[gHari 0]

<blockquote>Go to guru, go to the realized soul, and than you will see how much you do understand </blockquote>

Are we to understand that Srila Narayana Maharaja has a plan to discredit the sciptures of the Jews and Christians? All those serving him will soon be involved in this crusade, establishing Lord Caitanya as only way. But if this is not serving guru, then is it simply mental platform chatter; maya, 64 rounds or not?

[anadi 0]

 

ok given all the evidence Anadi has put forward it has become obvious to those amongst us that were ignorant before that the Biblic texts have a % of human writing in them i.e. they are not 100% God's words.

 

 

 

This is a twisting of my words.

I don't want to say this. Why do you put this in my mouth?

 

What I say, is that the sect of Paulus after they took on power, they tried to give a background for their doctrine, which is a such twisted speculation put as saintly which a pure fraud due to expansionist and exclusivist intensions of the sect of Paulus.

So they created the "Old Testament" which is a twisted and fraudulous translation of some texts of the judaic religion,

by which they tried to show how Jesus was a predicted Mesia, which they tried to present as the son of God (no knowledge of jiva tattva).

 

Son of Man: In all three major Semitic languages (Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic) the term barnasha means "human being".

Jesus often referred to himself as a human being (28 times in the Gospels). Barnasha comes from bar (son) and nasha (man).

The meaning of barnasha has created a lot of confusion in the Gospels.

It is impossible to translate the Aramaic term of barnasha literally as "son of man" - and yet most biblical translators have and still do just that to this day.

In the Aramaic language the word bar is combined with many other words to create different meanings - most specifically is means a "likeness."

For example barabba means "resembles his father".

Barhila translated literally would mean "son of power" but in reality it means "soldier". So when we read in the Gospels the phrase "son of man" it should be read correctly as "human being".

 

source "...and the truth shall set you free" by David Icke