Is bible a holy book?

[Guest guest]

>>>>We find exactly the same phenomena in the Vedas, that also accept a plurality of Gods, sometimes accepting Indra as supreme, sometimes Visnu, sometimes Shiva, and sometimes Brahman. So where is the difference, in essence?>>>>

 

I am from India, born and brought up and to my knowledge nowhere in India including the tribes accept and pray to Indra as supreme. Shiva is accepted and prayed as Supreme since Shiva and Narayana are one as Hariharan, Brahma..is accepted and prayed only as one among the three super powers of Shri Hari and again not as Supreme God as such equivalent with Hari..since everyone knows who have not read puraanas also but from movies that Brahma is son of Shri Hari.

 

There are lots of wrong assumptions among ISKONS about India. A mentioning of Indra brings rain does not mean that He is worshipped as supreme. Respecting different lesser forms of Shri Hari on their respective dates in the calender year does not mean all forms of Lord are accepted as Supreme. We respect all forms of Lord since they are part of Lord Shri Hari as mentioned by HIM in Gita. We dont disrespect any demi GOD, so this appears to ISKONS that Indians dont know anything and their way of worship is wrong..( I have read like this in other columns of you guys) which is the most funniest joke. well Indians dont care for that and Hare Krishna temples are mostly flooded with Indians and not with other people..

 

Jagdish

 

[shambu]

"I am from India, born and brought up and to my knowledge nowhere in India including the tribes accept and pray to Indra as supreme."

 

On the thread about Aryan-invasian theory I followed a link and found the following quote:

 

The Aryan gods are proudly presented by the Vedic sages as the destroyeres of cities. Of these Indra, later considered an incarnation of the God Vishnu, is the prime culprit. Indra is called Puroha or Purandhara, `sacker of cities' - [ S & T 366 ] Indra overthrew 100 Puras made of stone ( asmanmayi ) for his worshipper Divodasa [ RgV 4.30.20 ], evidently belonging to Sambara who is a Dasa ( non-Aryan/demon ) of the mountain [ RgV 6.26.5 ] -- [ Chanda ] [ S & T p.364 ]

 

So from this I inferred that god Indra was once worshipped as supreme being by at least some Aryans. I may be totally wrong in my conclusion, and the quote may be wrong too.

[gHari]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htm

 

 

Many gods and lords:

 

1 Corinthians 8.5-6

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[gHari]

1 John 2:22-27 - "The man who denies that YAHU'SHUAH is the Messiah - he is the liar, he is Antichrist, and he is denying the Father as well as the Son, because no one who has the Father can deny the Son, and to acknowledge the Son, is to have the Father as well."

 

1 John 4:1- 4 - "It is not every spirit, my dear people, that you can trust. Test them, to see if they come from God. There are many false prophets now in the world. You can tell the spirits that come from God by this: Every Spirit which acknowledges that YAHU'SHUAH the Messiah has come in the flesh, is from God, but any spirit which will not say this of YAHU'SHUAH, is not from God, but is the spirit of Antichrist, whose coming you were warned about. Well, now, he is here in the world children. You have already overcome these false prophets, because you are from God, and you have in you one who is greater than anyone in this world."

 

2 John verse 7 - "There are many deceivers about in the world, refusing to admit that YAHU'SHUAH has come in the flesh. They are the Deceiver; they are the Antichrist".

 

1 Cor. 12:3 “Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of The Almighty, calls YAHU'SHUAH accursed, and no man can say that YAHU'SHUAH is Lord, but by The Holy Spirit.”

 

[Guest guest]

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gods.html

 

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

 

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

 

Is that right?

[anadi]

by the power of intimidation, threat, inspiring fear, and much more...antichrist, hell and satan were nice tools in the Paulus's sect, who overtook the power through King Constanine!

 

 

1 John 2:22-27 - "The man who denies that YAHU'SHUAH is the Messiah - he is the liar, he is Antichrist, and he is denying the Father as well as the Son, because no one who has the Father can deny the Son, and to acknowledge the Son, is to have the Father as well."

 

1 John 4:1- 4 - "It is not every spirit, my dear people, that you can trust. Test them, to see if they come from God. There are many false prophets now in the world. You can tell the spirits that come from God by this: Every Spirit which acknowledges that YAHU'SHUAH the Messiah has come in the flesh, is from God, but any spirit which will not say this of YAHU'SHUAH, is not from God, but is the spirit of Antichrist, whose coming you were warned about. Well, now, he is here in the world children. You have already overcome these false prophets, because you are from God, and you have in you one who is greater than anyone in this world."

 

2 John verse 7 - "There are many deceivers about in the world, refusing to admit that YAHU'SHUAH has come in the flesh. They are the Deceiver; they are the Antichrist".

 

1 Cor. 12:3 “Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of The Almighty, calls YAHU'SHUAH accursed, and no man can say that YAHU'SHUAH is Lord, but by The Holy Spirit.”

 

 

Pious fraud was a common technique employed by early Christian writers to make a point. Their intention was to convert anyone and everyone by any means available. One of the more persuasive methods was to write a text and falsely tell others that it was written in first person. For example, the four canonized gospel tales were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, who were illiterate fisherman. That has been a well known fact for about 200 years. And to this day, no one knows who the gospel stories were written by, the mat. These texts are perfect examples of pious fraud. Pious fraud is the foundation of the deception known as Christianity and it continues to this day.

 

 

 

By the fourth century it became necessary for the Church to decide which of the many Gospels then in circulation were to be accepted as authentic?! The question came up in the Council of Nicea. Fortunately the testimonies of two eye-witnesses have been preserved, so there can be little doubt as to the method used in the selection of the Gospels. There were 318 Bishops present in this Council, and one of the two eye-witnesses, Sabinus, Bishop of Heraclea, left a description of their mental capacities. "With the exception of the Emperor (Constantine)" he said, "and Eusebius Pamphilus, these Bishops were a set of illiterate, simple creatures who understood nothing." About forty Gospels were submitted to these Bishops. As they differed widely in their contents, the decision was difficult. At last it was determined to resort to "miraculous intervention." The method used was known as the Sortes Sanctorum, or "the holy casting of lots for purposes of divination." Its use in the Council of Nicea was described by another eye-witness, Pappus, in his Synodicon to that Council. He says:

Having promiscuously put all the books referred to the Council for determination under a communion table in a church, they (the Bishops) besought the Lord that the inspired writings might get upon the table, while the spurious ones remained underneath. And it happened accordingly.

When the Bishops returned to the Council room on the following morning, the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were resting on the communion table. Their presence in the New Testament is due to the art of divination, for practicing which the Church subsequently condemned men and women as sorcerers, enchanters and witches, and burned them by the thousands.

After the death of Constantine, his policy was continued by his two sons. Every indulgence was shown to the illegal behavior of the Christians, every doubt explained to the disadvantage of the pagans, and the further demolition of the pagan temples was celebrated as one of the auspicious events of their reign. Having perceived the efficacy of Christian baptism in the case of their own father, they determined to force baptism upon even the unwilling. As Gibbon says:

 

The rites of baptism were conferred on women and children, who, for that purpose, had been torn from the arms of their friends and parents. The mouths of the communicants were held open by a wooden engine, while the consecrated bread was forced down their throats. (Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.)

 

[Guest guest]

This forum started with something and as I dont want to bash up bible, i thought I will share some useful information that could give better understandings.

 

All five elements were associated with some demi god in the vedas and puraanas of India. Again nobody really prays to Indra but just mention as deva who brings rain. Even Krishna says that He is Indra among the demigods. The concept of demigod as per Indian's worship is attached only to these five elements and not as described or understood by majority of ISKONS or nonISKONS in western countries in the present context.

Forms of Lord like Ganesha, Subramanya Swami (Karthikeya the warrior form of Shri Krishna) are equally worshipped with devotion and love by many people in India as with equivalent respects to Shri Hari and Shiva. Hari hara putra (Aiyappa) is also worshipped by many in Kerala and there is a separate temple dedicated in Sabarimala. everyone knows that they are lesser forms of Lord, but whatever form they may be, they are still "Lord" or emanated from Lord Supreme and so we pray with full attention and dont disrespect any form when we go to our temples. Any form if disrespected is actually disrespecting Shri Hari and we beleive that. Indian temples are constructed with particular shastras and sampradayaa where each form of Lord is placed in a particular direction and this is uniformly followed in all ancient temples. There are temples separately allocated for Lord Ganesha and Subramanya Swamy in different pilgrimage centres in India.

There are many saints who has sung on Subramanya swamy asking for liberation of soul. Primarily all the slokas dedicated to different forms of Lord invariably have inner meaning on the liberation of soul from material life, leading to moksha. Subramanya is known to liberate one from material desires, like Shiva. Arunagiri Nathar was a famous renounced saint and poet of tamilnadu who has sung on Subramanya Swamy in tamil.

Shaivites pray to Narayana and Vaishnavites also pray to Shiva, ganesha, Karthikeya and actually we dont discriminate any form of God and pay equal respects as described by Baghwan in Gita whether many people read Gita or not. IN all our religious rituals thats why we offer our prayers to all different form of Lord also with equal respects.

Liberation of Soul depends on what the soul prays to Lord with efforts and sincerity in really getting liberated. there are individuals ofcourse who get attached to one particular form of Lord and pray constantly to that form with total devotion asking for liberation of soul. Many saints are like this in both saivism and vaishnavism schools. Finally in all our prayers even while praying to Shiva or Karthikeya or Ganesha, or Goddess form of Lord, we invariably conclude with Sarvam Shri Krishnarpanamasthu dedicating everything to Shri Hari. The traditional way of vedic worship is not complex to understand, but one need to be there in India to understand Sanathana Dharma properly.

 

Jagdish

 

 

[gHari]

Are you out to destroy this man's faith in Christianity? Is it your mind or is it buddhi-yogam doing this? Do you know? What do you know? What have you gotten that is real out of that big bag of words you have accumulated? Would it be better to just chant the mahamantra?

 

I'm sure you can find many anti-Christian even anti-God sites on the net to throw at him. You will likely find many anti-Hindu, anti-vaisnava, and even anti-Gaudiya sites too. If it's in writing, it must be true. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Once bitten, twice shy.

 

It will be harder to bring an atheist to Lord Caitanya than to bring a Christian.

 

 

[Guest guest]

To me the bashing of bible appears like how some of the hindus bash up Shiva and Narayana and call Shri Krishna as womanizer, when converted to christianity in India for money and material comforts that they gain through christian missionaries, misinterpreting many things for their convenience and quote only the ones that are manipulated or misinterpreted, leaving behind the original Gita. Some even misquote Baghwatgita itself for their convenience when they become christians.

 

This bashing up of bible to me looks like that. Jesus is a guru and He must have certainly taught right, what is being misinterpreted in course of times.

So its better to use the sixth sense and take the right things and leave what is wrong. If someone authoritates the nonvegetarianism and anything more, its their karma and why should we break our head and fall from our level of understandings.

 

Jagdish

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Many people in India worship without any idea why they are doing it. You'd be surprized if you ask them what their destination after death is, normal answer is heaven.

 

I asked my mum this same question. I said mum

 

"your not a yoyo"

[Guest guest]

Its true many people in India worship without idea, but their worship is sincere than many westerners and people in India have more religious and moral values which are attached to their day to day lives. It does not matter whether you know whats going to be the destination, but the sincerity in following the bakthi yoga, because for that matter we all beleive in rebirth of the soul too, as per the karma of good and bad deeds. so when someone says they go to heaven after death, it means the final destination after all material life of reincarnation.

Its always easy to misinterpret with half baked knowledge and look down at others when you dont have sufficient maturity in understanding.

Jagdish

[gHari]

Speaking with Allen Ginsberg, Prabhupada says:<blockquote>So if anyone loves KRSNa, he must love Lord Jesus Christ also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus Christ he must love KRSNa. If he says, "Why shall I love KRSNa? I shall love Jesus Christ," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus Christ? I shall love...", then he has also no knowledge. If one understands KRSNa, then he will understand Jesus Christ. If one understands Jesus Christ, you'll understand KRSNa.</blockquote>

[anadi]

 

So if anyone loves KRSNa, he must love Lord Jesus Christ also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus Christ he must love KRSNa. If he says, "Why shall I love KRSNa? I shall love Jesus Christ," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus Christ? I shall love...", then he has also no knowledge. If one understands KRSNa, then he will understand Jesus Christ. If one understands Jesus Christ, you'll understand KRSNa.

 

 

 

If one reads attentively, one will see that many of these and other words of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami, were addressed to people according their understanding and according circumstances, and entails really no siddhanta, but compromise somehow "for a a better acceptance of Krishna in an alien world, alien to the philosophical percepts (siddhanta) of devotional service (bhakti).

 

Now I see you are using a technic which is described as taught by the demons in the case of an argumentation:

 

You changed the topic (which pertains to the truth about the collection of texts called bible), pretending you respond to the question "pious fraud in the bible" and

give a quotation which has nothing to do with the subject.

 

Sorry, I changed radically my opinion about you.

 

Other nice demoniac technics one can use:

denigrate the opponent

make fun of him

bane him

exile

and kill.

 

Apropo these thechnics, let's see how the paulinic churchianism under the guise of Christianity was imposed to the world, and started with the first christian emperor.

 

"THE fourth century was the turning point in the history of the Western world, the period in which Christianity took the form of a strong political organization. Throttling the old religions, sciences and philosophies, "the Church" arose as a temporal power upon their remains.

 

Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, was the son of the Roman Emperor Constantius and of Helena, the daughter of an inn-keeper. He was a pagan by birth, a devotee of the sun-god Apollo, whose altars Constantine covered with votive offerings, and whose image appeared on the coins of the emperor as his "companion and guardian."

 

Constantine's conversion to Christianity, as the result of a psychic vision, is described by Eusebius, who was his close friend and companion as well as his famous biographer. On the night before his final battle with Maxentius, who had denounced him as a usurper to the throne, Constantine appealed to his own god for help. According to Eusebius,

 

While he was praying with fervent entreaty, a most marvelous sign appeared in the heavens, the account of which, related by any other person, would be difficult of belief. But since the victorious Emperor himself declared it to the writer of this history, and confirmed his statement with an oath, who could hesitate to credit it? He said that when the sun was beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a Cross of blazing light, with this inscription: "I. H. S. In this sign thou shalt conquer." (Vita Constantin.)

On the following night Constantine had another psychic vision. This time the figure of Christ himself appeared, wearing the same cross that Constantine had seen the night before. Constantine declared that on this occasion Christ spoke to him, telling him to place this cross on his battle flag and to march against Maxentius with full assurance of victory. Constantine obeyed, and Maxentius was defeated. In adopting this symbol -- henceforth placed upon the Imperial banner and carried at the head of the army in its conquest for Christ and the Church -- Constantine added two more pagan symbols to Christianity. For the long lance crossed at right angles by a staff was the ancient sign of Osiris, and the letters I. H. S. one of the names of Bacchus.

Constantine celebrated his victory over Maxentius by the

kiling of the two sons of his adversary. This was followed in orderly succession by the kiling of five members of Constantine's own household and later by the kiling of his own wife and son. Eventually these crimes began to weigh upon his conscience. Although he had been fighting under the banner of Christ for twenty years, he turned to the pagan religions for absolution. He was told that no pagan religion offered absolution for such crimes as his. He then turned to the Christian Church, and was informed that Christian baptism would expiate any crime, irrespective of its magnitude"; (which is a misinterpretation of diksha)-

1. first function of diksha is really to distroy papa (sins)

the seeds of sins, papa bija, and the tendency to commit sins, papa kutha.

2. second function of diksha is to give transcendental knowledge, divya jnana...revealed in the "heart" (citta).

 

But Diksha is a process which start with the ceremony of taking initiation and may take uncountable life times. See the definition of Diksha as given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in his book of definitions on abhideya tattva, Sri Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu.

 

And in describing vaidhi sadhana bhakti Srila Rupa Gosvami says that the first anga of bhakti is guru padda-ashraya (take shelter of the lotus feet of guru) and second anga is to take diksha and shiksa from him - Sri guru diksha-shiksha-adi.

 

 

[theist]

 

If one reads attentively, one will see that many of these and other words of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami, were addressed to people according their understanding and according circumstances, and entails really no siddhanta, but compromise somehow "for a a better acceptance of Krishna in an alien world, alien to the philosophical percepts (siddhanta) of devotional service (bhakti).

 

 

Yeah right. How typical. I hear this often right at junctures like this where it is clearly shown that Prabhupada has a totally different perspective then the one the speaker(spinner) is presenting. They suddenly start up with the "well Prabhupada didn't really mean it..."

 

I guess we are lucky to have you here to translate Prabhupada's real meanings to us anadi.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada: This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles . . . We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same thing. Let the child take medicine. Never mind the father is speaking lies . . . Because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Krsna literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Krsna literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. (760505rc.hon)

 

Prabhupada: Just like a mother says to his child, "My dear child, if you take this medicine, I will give you this lugloo." The child is diseased. He will not be able to digest lugloo, but the mother sometimes cheats him. And when he takes the medicine the lugloo is not delivered. Similarly, sometimes we have to say so many things very pleasing to him, but our business is that let him take this medicine. That is tactics. But that is not cheating. If the mother helps the child in drinking medicine and then afterwards she does not supply the lugloo, that is not cheating. Some way or other... That is the instruction of Rupa Gosvami, yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet: "Somehow or other, let everyone be Krsna conscious." There is no question of vidhi-nisedha. Sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah. The other rules and regulation will act as servant, but the main business is to bring one to Krsna consciousness. That is the main business. We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes. So that is not cheating. (SP Room Conv. Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

 

Rupa Goswami:

 

yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet...

 

"An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness." (Brs.1.2.4)

 

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/web/text/057.html

 

Prabhupada: General principle is that if you can engage anyone in Krsna consciousness, that is good. That is good. That is also said in the Bhakti-rasamrta. Yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet. If your aim is to engage him in Krsna consciousness, if you do something which is not very straight, that is allowed. (laughter) Because you are doing very good to him

[theist]

But it is not the case everytime we find something that Prabhupoada said disagrees with us. "Oh he didn't really mean it, he just said that to bring the others along."

[Guest guest]

 

Yeah right. How typical. I hear this often right at junctures like this where it is clearly shown that Prabhupada has a totally different perspective then the one the speaker(spinner) is presenting. They suddenly start up with the "well Prabhupada didn't really mean it..."

 

I guess we are lucky to have you here to translate Prabhupada's real meanings to us anadi

 

 

You chrxan sympathizers would have it Prabhupada teaches apasiddhanta with your interpreation of things.

[theist]

Prabhupada is very clear. I choose not to see him through your eyes. On this subject he made a thousand or more such statements glorifying Christ. That apparently bothers you. You should ask yourself why.

 

Take the last word if you like. For me this conversation has ended.

[gHari]

I referenced that Prabhupada quote because it reminded me of the first quote above from the book of John which was dismissed as a "pious fraud".

 

I would ask you to search your heart about why you are bent on destroying your brother-in-law's faith. Is that Lord Caitanya's goal?

 

It seems often that those who have never had any exposure to Christ in their lives when they don't agree with Srila Prabhupada, just say he was telling a white lie. I heard the sound bytes. No one will ever make me think that Prabhupada did not have genuine love and respect for Christ.

 

If he is trying to play the us and them game, there is no reason you have to play too. One can walk away or beat him at the game, but a better approach is to make him realize that there is no us and them; there is no game. However, you seem to think there is, so your punishment for such offense is that you will waste all this time and emotional energy without Krsna.

 

I am hoping that your "Deceitfulness?" comment was directed at me and not Srila Prabhupada, or better yet, directed toward the people behind the conspiracy which somehow has not received endorsement from any Christian denominations forcing the retraction of the scriptures. Perhaps we are playing with the best we've got, even if it is an oral tradition. The only important thing in the book anyway is the preaching about the Kingdom of God - the 18.66 lesson, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everything else follows from there. One would think that his followers would at least preserve that properly. What short ideas would we preserve to keep the essence of vaisnava-dharma alive - pick one concept?

 

"Don't worry about what you are going to eat or what clothes you will wear. God knows you need these things. Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." Who among us here is so surrendered?

 

[gHari]

So this knowledge we get helps increase our desire to engage in bhakti. Prabhupada suggests that devotees with different qualifications require different classes of knowledge:<blockquote>If you want to enter into the spiritual world, you cannot get through simply by arguments. Because there is no limit of argument. I place my argument in one way. Another man, who is better arguer, he places his argument in a different way. So if you simply go on arguing, it is not possible. Tarko 'pratiSThaH. It will never help you. Argument. <font color="blue">Zrutayo vibhinnAH</font>. If you think that "I shall read scriptures and I shall understand God," no, that is also not possible. <font color="blue">Zrutayo vibhinnAH</font>. Scriptures are also different. Because scriptures are made according to time, circumstances, people. Just like Bible. Bible Lord Jesus Christ preached in the desert, Jerusalem. Or where it is? People who were not so advanced. Therefore his first instruction is "Thou shall not kill." That means they were very much engaged in killing affairs; otherwise, why is this instruction? And actually, it so happened that they killed Jesus Christ. So that society was not very enlightened society. So a scripture for a society which is not very enlightened and a scripture for a society which is very enlightened must be different. Just like a dictionary. For the schoolboy, a pocket dictionary. And for a college student, international, big dictionary. Both of them are dictionaries. But the small pocket dictionary is not equal to the big dictionary. Because it is different made for different classes of men. So scriptures are made according to different classes of men. There are three classes of men: first-class, second-class, and third-class. The third-class man cannot understand the philosophy and scriptural injunctions of the first-class man. That is not possible. Higher mathematics cannot be understood by the small schoolboys who are simply trying to understand "Two plus two equal to four." But "Two plus two equal to four" is equally good to the higher mathematics student. But still, higher mathematics and lower math is different. Therefore it is said, <font color="blue">zrutayo vibhinnAH</font>: the scriptures are different. So if you simply try to understand what is God by reading scriptures, you cannot achieve. You must approach a guru. Just like a medical book. It can be available in the market. If you purchase one medical book and study and you become doctor, that is not possible. You must hear the medical book from a medical man in the college, medical college. Then you will be qualified. And if you say, "Sir, I have read all the medical books. Recognize me as a medical practitioner," no, that will be not.

 

So <font color="blue">zrutayo vibhinnAH</font>. Scriptures are different. Arguments, that is also not helpful. One man may argue better than me. Then philosophy. The philosophy, it is said, nAsau munir yasya mataM na bhinnam. One philosopher is differing from another philosopher. Just now today SyAmasundara has purchased one book about different philosophers. So that you also cannot ascertain what is truth. Therefore zAstra says, dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAm. The truth is very confidential. So if you want to know that truth, mahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH, you should have to follow the great AcAryas. Then you will understand. Therefore AcArya-upAsanA is essential. AcArya-upAsanA is very essential. In all the Vedic zAstras the injunction is that. Tad-vijJAnArthaM sa gurum evAbhigacchet, zrotriyaM brahma- niSTham [MU 1.2.12]. TasmAd gurum prapadyeta jijJAsuH zreya uttamam [sB 11.3.21]. Anyone who is inquisitive to understand higher truths, he must surrender to guru. TasmAd guruM prapadyeta, jijJAsuH zreya uttamam. One who is inquisitive, who is now inquiring about transcendental subject matter. Tad viddhi praNipAtena paripraznena sevayA [bg. 4.34]. So all the zAstras says, in our VaiSNava zAstra also, RUpa GosvAmI says, Adau gurv-Azrayam: "In the first beginning, you must take shelter of a bona fide guru."</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhupada is very clear. I choose not to see him through your eyes. On this subject he made a thousand or more such statements glorifying Christ. That apparently bothers you. You should ask yourself why.

 

 

 

I'm with you on this one theist! Well said. It does not befit someone on the spiritual path (or at least trying to) to critisize in such a manner. Whether Swami Prab. spoke for or against the Bible/Christ, that was a pure devoteee speaking - not little dirty us. We have ZERO authority, Anadi - face it - you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Give up trying to tell your brother-in-law that his religion is wrong and pray to the Supreme that the Supreme Himself will act to change him, if that's what you really want. Question is - is that what the Supreme wants? Is that what your brother-in-laws' karma invokes?

[Guest guest]

 

I would ask you to search your heart about why you are bent on destroying your brother-in-law's faith. Is that Lord Caitanya's goal?

 

 

The faith based on false siddhanta propagated from a book full of twisted transcendental knowledge, is worse than no siddhanta and the aggresive preaching of "my brother" based on this twisted "knowledge" is a plague at least as big as mayavadism. The matter of fact the churchianism of Paulus which is now preached as christianity is impersonalism, just speaking about an unknown God which many see as Light.

 

I am speaking about the book which is full of twisted knowledgeis the basis of their agressive preaching.

Here it is another example:

"First Man, First Woman

 

There was no first man "Adam," according to the Hebrew text. The word adam in Hebrew is a common noun, meaning man in a generic sense and in Genesis 1:26, it states:

 

"And elohim (gods) said, Let us make adam (man)"; and so "elohim created ha- adam (the-man); ... male and female created he them" (1: 27).

 

In the second creation story, where man is first made alone:

 

"Yahveh formed ha-adam (the-man) out of the dust of ha-adamah-the ground" (2:7).

 

Man is called in Hebrew adam because he was formed out of adamah, the ground; just as in Latin man is called homo because he was formed from humus, the ground. Early Christian father Lactantius stated it as 'homo ex humo' ('man from the ground', or 'dust' as it commonly stated today).

 

The forging of the name Adam from the Hebrew noun adam into a mythical proper name Adam, was after the so-called Exodus. The fraud in the forging of fictitious genealogies from "in the beginning" to Father Abraham.

 

And this wasn't done by Christians, but rather by early Hebrew priests. Nonetheless, early Christians took this deception and used it for their own newly forged religion."

 

And I don't go in a "christian" forum to tell "my brother" the truth about his "holy book", but I tell "my brother" vaisnava, in this forum, how was that the present day Paulus churchianism presents a such differnt "transcendental knowledge" regarding the truth about the soul,the Lord, spiritual world, false ego, satan?, bhakti...

[anadi]

previous post by anadi

[gHari]

Are you really? How did you have time to study the Vedas and the Bible? You seem to know Hebrew and Greek and maybe even Aramaic. If you only did some cursory research on the net, then I suggest you spend the same length of time on the anti-Vaisnava sites and see what kind of stupid uninformed demonic foolish red-neck creatures create these abominations.

 

I would however suggest that you still have no idea what that religion is about, about what Christ taught. I don't know why Paramatma is not helping you with this. Are you giving Him an opening between your anger and your jnana?

 

Maybe you love your sister so much that it breaks your heart that her husband has yet to receive Lord Caitanya's mercy. Maybe by setting a good example - let him see the fruits of the Gauranga tree. But don't alienate him by offending his guru. That never works, does it? I would be shameful if I didn't recognize that in my life Christ would have to be considered a Vartmana Pradarshaka Gurudeva.

 

Christ said "Love God"; Caitanya tells us how. If the brother-in-law is sincere about God (your job is to help him become sincere), then he can take to bhakti-yoga. Just remember that Krsna is God, and what is often forgotten: God is Krsna.

 

But don't expect calculus lessons in an arithmetic text book.

 

[Guest guest]

Yes "if anyone loves KRSNa, he must love Lord Jesus Christ" this is Gaudiya Siddhanta. Jesus is a gopi so we must follow after him to become Krishna Conscious. Right. Very clear. Just like Rupa Goswami taught.

 

Glorifying Christ bothers me? Think so? Is the issue here Prabhupada's respect for Christ? Apparently you are in conversation with yourself not responding directly to anything.