Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[theist 1]

 

Sorry theist please ignore my last comment I misinterpreted what you was saying. You were obviously rebutting guestisimo when he claimed that Prabhupada's quotes were only directed at certain disciples.

No problem. This is common on the internet and we all do it.

 

I am really sick (the icon was no joke) of people from other branches reinterpreting the words of Srila Prabhupada, turning them on their head, in an attempt to superimpose their guru's words and meanings onto Srila Prabhupada's crystaline instructions.

 

One group in particular seems to have made this their life's work.

[brajeshwara das 0]

The concept that a physically present spiritual master is needed seems to me to put a limitation on Guru and Krsna. If Guru wants to make Himself known without a physical representation, can't He? Is it impossible for Him to do so? I doubt that! We know Caitya Guru is there for sure, no one denies this, but is He limited to needing outside contact to have a full relationship with the disciple? Is there a catalyst necessary for full spiritual growth on the outside? Couldn't this all happen internally?

 

I personally need my Gurudeva on the outside because for years I tried to only hear from with in myself, also in books but I was the one writing the purports in my head. I only came to the Vaisnavas when I admitted defeat and that I needed the help of physically manifest Guru. So while I agree with theist in principal, in practise I would never recommend someone only look within for Guru. To me that is terrible advice and harmful to one's prospects for success in spiritual life. But it is up to each individual to surrender and if some can't accept those purporting to be Guru that they meet (bonafide or bogus), then who is to blame them? If they sincerely surrender to Caitya Guru within won't they get the highest benefit?

 

Also theist in my opinion does have a spiritual master on the outside, Srila Swami Maharaj. He never took formal initiation but theist follows Him, He guides him, there is a relationship there and He is present giving His instructions in His books. Theist isn't solely looking to Caitya Guru but to Sadhu and Sastra. Who is to say this isn't a real connection? Because you feel the disciple is limited are you limiting Guru as well?

[theist 1]

 

The concept that a physically present spiritual master is needed seems to me to put a limitation on Guru and Krsna. If Guru wants to make Himself known without a physical representation, can't He? Is it impossible for Him to do so? I doubt that! We know Caitya Guru is there for sure, no one denies this, but is He limited to needing outside contact to have a full relationship with the disciple? Is there a catalyst necessary for full spiritual growth on the outside? Couldn't this all happen internally?

 

Surely He can. But my point is just a little different. I don't ever say Caitya-guru alone....but then again I do. One and different. If the guru is really Krsna's representative then he should be accepted as the external manifestation of Supersoul and no less. If someone is hearing from a bonefide expansion of Krsna he should be hearing the voice of Krsna speaking as his guru. This is my essential point. One has to see his guru as a transcedental personality and not an Indian swami elderly man who walks with a cane or some other such temporary designation. To see Krsna's devotee in the proper spiritual light one needs the grace of Krsna. When one sees like this there is no longer this strict demarcation line between inside and outside. It's all inside even when it enters your consciousness through your physical bodies ears and brain. IOW's ALL transcendental knowledge comes from Krsna in the heart. To comprehend the so-called external guru's words one needs the grace of Caitya guru. How else could we understand transcendental thought? By our material brains and minds? Hardly possible! Krsna says He gives the understanding by which the sincere aspirant comes to Him. He destroys the darkness born of ignorance with His shining lamp of transcendental knowledge.

 

Praise be to Him.

 

Another angle on this is that no one in the entire universe can claim to have ever received transcendental knowledge solely from the "inside". Our spiritual progress has been on going for god knows how many births of searching and gaining instruction from this sadhu or that one all building up to our present point. The only exception would be an Avatar come straight from Vaikuntha and most of us know that is not our position.

 

 

I personally need my Gurudeva on the outside because for years I tried to only hear from with in myself, also in books but I was the one writing the purports in my head. I only came to the Vaisnavas when I admitted defeat and that I needed the help of physically manifest Guru. So while I agree with theist in principal, in practise I would never recommend someone only look within for Guru. To me that is terrible advice and harmful to one's prospects for success in spiritual life. But it is up to each individual to surrender and if some can't accept those purporting to be Guru that they meet (bonafide or bogus), then who is to blame them? If they sincerely surrender to Caitya Guru within won't they get the highest benefit?

 

I agree that would be terrible advice to ignore Supersoul in His external manifestation and only try to find Him within one's own heart. But I NEVER have advised that to anyone not even one time, NEVER.

 

 

Also theist in my opinion does have a spiritual master on the outside, Srila Swami Maharaj. He never took formal initiation but theist follows Him, He guides him, there is a relationship there and He is present giving His instructions in His books. Theist isn't solely looking to Caitya Guru but to Sadhu and Sastra. Who is to say this isn't a real connection? Because you feel the disciple is limited are you limiting Guru as well?

 

*Thank you even though you are being way to generous. For me if I ever decide to become serious I have Srila Prabhupada/Krsna in vani form to guide me and we all have Caitya guru to keep us from developing wrong conceptions on what we think we are hearing/reading from sadhu and sastra. Also it is wrong to think that Srila Prabhupada left no bone fide representative in disciple form to continue his message. I believe I know such a person and by the grace of modern recording I can hear from there as well.

 

One can sit at the feet of a bone fide rep. of Krsna and so-called hear him speak daily and never really hear his message unless Krsna in the heart allows that message to come through.

 

There is no way to sidestep the Lord in heart even while on the road to realizing the Lord of the heart. Every step on the path to perfection comes by His grace.

 

*Again I want to emphasise that I am not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada or any genuine guru. Disciple means one who follows the discipline externally and internally. This is a very important point. Discipleship is shown by the way we lead our lives in thoughts words and deeds. We can't be sentimentalists in this regard. The good fortune of being such a disciple is found in the way of life a disciple leads and not in just going through a ceremony or in some other way coming to identify oneself as disciple.

 

I am a lay person to the Krsna consciousness movement. That is not an attempt to sound humble but rather I consider even that to be great good fortune in my life which will pay dividends in the future. The dark tunnel is long but I now see light up ahead and I feel really good about that. But disciple...no. Let's become more strict on how we think of this word...on what it really means.

 

brajashwara your openess and broad balanced outlook on things is a welcome breath of fresh air on this forum. We can all learn from that example.

 

Hare Krsna

[bija 0]

 

I am really sick (the icon was no joke) of people from other branches reinterpreting the words of Srila Prabhupada, turning them on their head, in an attempt to superimpose their guru's words and meanings onto Srila Prabhupada's crystaline instructions.

 

One group in particular seems to have made this their life's work. quote by theist

I feel theist, that the real test of understanding if we have grasped Srila Prabhupada's words is blossoming of devotion in the heart. Surely this is the purpose behind Srila Prabhupada's words: to plant the seed of devotion to GaurangaKrsna and nurture it to full blossom.

 

So personally this is how I will try to perceive if some group has grasped the inner meaning of Srila Prabhupada's words nicely. Rather than getting caught up in the external words; where there is debate between groups as to who is following or interpreting instruction correctly.

 

And how difficult is this, to judge the blossoming of devotion in the heart of other souls...(or members of other groups). This is why I read your statement with caution. To judge such things of the heart, could be almost judging the works of Bhakti Devi herself.

 

So I would prefer to be open to the diversity of groups and their understandings, and implementation into practice, of Srila Prabhupada's words. His words are surely dynamic and alive and can be understood in mutifaceted ways, rather than confining them to one's own personal realizations only. Spiritual existence is a positive and progressive existence. And I feel in this way, the living word (life of devotion) cannot be boxed so easily.

 

I do not know the group you have placed into question in your quote, and I am not so concerned who they are. But I can speak from personal experience. I am attempting to follow a Guru who has understood Srila Prabhupada's instruction in a certain way. A way that is in someway perceived as different from other followers of Srila Prabhupada. But the proof is in the pudding. I feel in my own personal bhajana, by following my spiritual teachers instruction, that I am becoming closer in my heart to following Srila Prabhupada's desires. And maybe oneday my aspiration to be his follower may come to life.

 

These are just some personal thoughts I felt after reading your post. The inner substance of the seed of devotion beginning to grow in our hearts, is a sure way to perceive if we have in some way grasped the inner heart of the elevated acarya's words. Rather than words more based on the externals. Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts.

 

 

brajeshwara your openess and broad balanced outlook on things is a welcome breath of fresh air on this forum. We can all learn from that example. quote by theist

I feel the same here about braj, his writing is much appreciated.

[brajeshwara das 0]

 

I agree that would be terrible advice to ignore Supersoul in His external manifestation and only try to find Him within one's own heart. But I NEVER have advised that to anyone not even one time, NEVER.

 

Sorry Prabhu, I didn't mean it to say that you had, only that I wanted to be clear that I myself wasn't saying that. I know it could be misunderstood.

[theist 1]

 

I do not know the group you have placed into question in your quote, and I am not so concerned who they are. But I can speak from personal experience. I am attempting to follow a Guru who has understood Srila Prabhupada's instruction in a certain way. A way that is in someway perceived as different from other followers of Srila Prabhupada. But the proof is in the pudding. I feel in my own personal bhajana, by following my spiritual teachers instruction, that I am becoming closer in my heart to following Srila Prabhupada's desires. And maybe oneday my aspiration to be his follower may come to life.

 

Let me try to be more clear bija. I don't refer to some teachers laying down a different variation on the basic sadhana that Srila Prabhupada did. Some may chant 4 rounds and others may chant 64 that is between that guru and his disciples and disciples of one shouldn't approach the disciples of another trying to impose their guru's teaching onto them.

 

Or another example is that Srila Prabhupada had his disciples offer certain foods that some other gurus restrict from their disciples. Both groups need to respect the others right to choose their own discipline in the matter.

 

But it gets more serious when it comes down to a certain group trying to deny the potency of Srila Prabhupada's Living Vani as being sufficent to elevate a follower of those instructions all the way to Krsna preme and therefore his followers know need to approach their guru because he has a body... presently.

 

This has nothing to do with disagreement on this point. Everyone is free too believe what they wish in the matter. It is when one goes out of his way to try to spin the clear words of Srila Prabhupada into something completely different that it becomes offensive.

 

The Christ haters that picture themselves as Srila Prabhupada's disciples do this also. Srila Prabhupada profusely praised Jesus Christ even saying Lord Jesus is an incarnation of Krsna,in those words. Yet the Christ haters not being able to bear hearing Christ praised try to spin those words with, "Well he didn't really mean that, he was just saying that because his disciples were Christians. Some were some weren't. Many were Jewish many more were atheists. This is highly offensive.

 

If someone disagrees with what Prabhupada taught on anything they should just admit they disagree and not try to mold his teachings to fit their preconceived ideas.

 

I disagree with Prabhupada on many things. I think the cosmolgy in SB is silly and not to be taken literally. I think the use of commercial milk is a form of cow slaughter and no devotee should touch it. Srila Prabhupada taught differently. I don't try to torture the words of SB cosmology to fit the revelations that have come from modern science like some super intelligent devotees have done. Nor do I try to pretend that Srila Prabhupada really wanted his disciples to be vegans but had to compromise because they came from a milk drinking culture.

 

I have the same problem with devotees that profess the need to change Srila Prabhupada's books to fit modern politically correct thought. No one has a right to change Prabhupada's teachings on anything. That little puke icon is meant for the book changers at the BBT as well.

 

Right or wrong Srila Prabhupada should be taken or left As He Is and not for we want to pretend him to be.

 

I have no broad minded outlook on this point. It is black and white in my mind.

[theist 1]

 

Sorry Prabhu, I didn't mean it to say that you had, only that I wanted to be clear that I myself wasn't saying that. I know it could be misunderstood.

 

I did take it that way at first but your position was made clear in the following paragraph. I was speaking to all those that think I am saying that and that is 95% of the readers of this forum.

[bija 0]

Thank you theist for spending time replying to my post. I understand better now your position on this subject. My desire to respond to your initial quote was due to the circumstances of my own encounters in Krsna consciousness, and was prompted by my sensitivities. Dandavats repected Prabhu!

[gHari 0]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by brajeshwara das

The concept that a physically present spiritual master is needed seems to me to put a limitation on Guru and Krsna. If Guru wants to make Himself known without a physical representation, can't He? Is it impossible for Him to do so? I doubt that! We know Caitya Guru is there for sure, no one denies this, but is He limited to needing outside contact to have a full relationship with the disciple? Is there a catalyst necessary for full spiritual growth on the outside? Couldn't this all happen internally?

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

From a 1974 lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.48:

 

So KRSNa, when instructs from within the heart, He is called caitya-guru. And that caitya-guru is expanded by the process, personal presentation of spiritual master. So both ways He is helping us. KRSNa is so kind. Guru-kRSNa-kRpA.

KRSNa is helping from within, but sometimes we are so dull, naturally, that we cannot understand. Therefore He sends His representative to instruct externally

. So He is helping internally and externally.

gHari

[Guest guest]

 

No problem. This is common on the internet and we all do it.

 

I am really sick (the icon was no joke) of people from other branches reinterpreting the words of Srila Prabhupada, turning them on their head, in an attempt to superimpose their guru's words and meanings onto Srila Prabhupada's crystaline instructions.

 

One group in particular seems to have made this their life's work.

 

Im with you there 100%. I have so far heard many devotees try to twist Prabhupada's CRYSTAL CLEAR instructions on this matter as it does not fit in with there own belief.

 

One suggested that the CLEAR quotes were only for certain disciples and not all which is a gross speculation.

 

If certain devotee's want to believe otherwise they are entitled to do so, but please do not twist Prabhupada's words and orders.

[Guest guest]

 

From a 1974 lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.48:

 

So KRSNa, when instructs from within the heart, He is called caitya-guru. And that caitya-guru is expanded by the process, personal presentation of spiritual master. So both ways He is helping us. KRSNa is so kind. Guru-kRSNa-kRpA.

KRSNa is helping from within, but sometimes we are so dull, naturally, that we cannot understand. Therefore He sends His representative to instruct externally

. So He is helping internally and externally.

gHari

 

This quote which we all know very well cannot be used to defend the bogus, 'physically present' guru specualtion. The quote says, 'EXTERNALLY' meaning not from within or the supersoul. That can be in the form of books, instructions etc. It is not proof that the physical spiritual master must be PHYSICALLY PRESENT before the disciple in order to make advancement.

 

Again if this were the case then Prabhupada disciples would not have made any advancement for the past three decades as Prabhupada has not been PHYSICALLY PRESENT to guide, instruct, nurture and chastize them. Nor have they any hope of going back to Godhead as Prabhupada is no longer PHYSICALLY PRESENT in order to liberate them.

 

You can see how absurd this idea is, and it in no way repressent Prabhupada's clear instructions on this matter that physical presence is not important.

 

"As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc., then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on."

(Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74)

[krsna 3]

SB 4.28.52

 

 

The brähmaëa inquired as follows: Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man lying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don't you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.

 

PURPORT

 

When a person's relative dies, renunciation is automatically visible. Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone's heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment. One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramätmä feature sitting within everyone's heart. The Paramätmä is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart. An uncontaminated soul or living entity can get a chance to meet the Paramätmä face to face. Just as one gets a chance to consult with the Paramätmä within his heart, one also gets a chance to see Him actually situated before him. Then one can take instructions from the Supersoul directly. This is the duty of the pure devotee: to see the bona fide spiritual master and consult with the Supersoul within the heart.

When the brähmana asked the woman who the man lying on the floor was, she answered that he was her spiritual master and that she was perplexed about what to do in his absence. At such a time the Supersoul immediately appears, provided the devotee is purified in heart by following the directions of the spiritual master. A sincere devotee who follows the instructions of the spiritual master certainly gets direct instructions from his heart from the Supersoul. Thus a sincere devotee is always helped directly or indirectly by the spiritual master and the Supersoul. This is confirmed in Caitanya-caritämåta: guru-kåñëa-prasäde päya bhakti-latä-béja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. If the devotee serves his spiritual master sincerely, KRSNA automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasädäd bhagavad-prasädaù. By satisfying the spiritual master, one automatically satisfies KRSNA. Thus the devotee becomes enriched by both the spiritual master and KRSNA. The Supersoul is eternally the friend of the living entity and always remains with him. The Supersoul has always been ready to help the living entity, even before the creation of this material world. It is therefore stated here: yenägre vicacartha. The word agre means "before the creation." Thus the Supersoul has been accompanying the living entity since before the creation.

[Guest guest]

 

SB 4.28.52

<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size=5]<b><u>A sincere devotee who follows the instructions of the spiritual master certainly gets direct instructions from his heart from the Supersoul.</font></b></u>

[Guest guest]

Some people simply assume they know Srila Prabhupada's heart and use quotes at random to support their case. I disagree with your words below.

 

 

This quote which we all know very well cannot be used to defend the bogus, 'physically present' guru specualtion. The quote says, 'EXTERNALLY' meaning not from within or the supersoul. That can be in the form of books, instructions etc. It is not proof that the physical spiritual master must be PHYSICALLY PRESENT before the disciple in order to make advancement.

 

Again if this were the case then Prabhupada disciples would not have made any advancement for the past three decades as Prabhupada has not been PHYSICALLY PRESENT to guide, instruct, nurture and chastize them. Nor have they any hope of going back to Godhead as Prabhupada is no longer PHYSICALLY PRESENT in order to liberate them.

 

<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size=3 color="red"><b>You can see how absurd this idea is, and it in no way repressent Prabhupada's clear instructions on this matter that physical presence is not important. </font></b>

 

"As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc., then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on."

(Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74)

[Guest guest]

The same could be said of you as well. So what makes you think you're right and they're the ones twisting the words?

 

Not taking any sides here but you have to make your case rather than just accuse.

 

 

<font face"Monotype Corsiva" size=4 color="red"><b>Im with you there 100%. I have so far heard many devotees try to twist Prabhupada's CRYSTAL CLEAR instructions on this matter as it does not fit in with there own belief. </font> </b>

 

One suggested that the CLEAR quotes were only for certain disciples and not all which is a gross speculation.

 

If certain devotee's want to believe otherwise they are entitled to do so, but please do not twist Prabhupada's words and orders.

[Guest guest]

 

Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone's heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment.

 

It is also stated in the Bhakti Sandarbha that:

 

 

Only a liberated person can associate with an aprakat soul, a guru who has left the external vision.

[Guest guest]

Tremendous revelation! Thanks for posting this.

 

 

<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size=5 color="blue"><b>Only a liberated person can associate with an aprakat soul, a guru who has left the external vision</font><b>.

[theist 1]

Yes I agree we cannot hear properly. But what makes you think you can hear Supersouls external manifestation any better? If you are not hearing your Guru's voice as Supersoul's voice then you are in the same position deaf.

 

If your guru's voice is not the same as Supersoul's voice then you have the wrong guru.

 

There is no difference in quality between the two. If someone thinks they are hearing guru properly but cannot hear Supersoul then clearly they are not hearing their guru.

 

What we get from this position is just a shadow or reflection of his words. That can help us greatly in our progress no doubt but we should remain mindful of our status as mixed devotees. As mixed devotees we hear as mixed devotees. Pretending otherwise will not help us.

[Bhakta Devarsi 0]

 

Yes I agree we cannot hear properly. But what makes you think you can hear Supersouls external manifestation any better? If you are not hearing your Guru's voice as Supersoul's voice then you are in the same position deaf.

 

If your guru's voice is not the same as Supersoul's voice then you have the wrong guru.

 

There is no difference in quality between the two. If someone thinks they are hearing guru properly but cannot hear Supersoul then clearly they are not hearing their guru.

 

What we get from this position is just a shadow or reflection of his words. That can help us greatly in our progress no doubt but we should remain mindful of our status as mixed devotees. As mixed devotees we hear as mixed devotees. Pretending otherwise will not help us.

 

First we are trained by external Guru because we have external consciousness, just like ALL neophytes are recommended to worship the statue until they see it is not a statue, first we listen to external guru, because it is easier.

 

Not easy. Easier. Or it wouldn't be the process.

 

Then dictation from Inner Chaityh Guru becomes more and more clear.

 

Just put one foot in front of the other. Step One. Step two.

[brajeshwara das 0]

 

first we listen to external guru, because it is easier.

 

 

Exactly.

[theist 1]

 

First we are trained by external Guru because we have external consciousness, just like ALL neophytes are recommended to worship the statue until they see it is not a statue, first we listen to external guru, because it is easier.

 

Not easy. Easier. Or it wouldn't be the process.

 

Then dictation from Inner Chaityh Guru becomes more and more clear.

 

Just put one foot in front of the other. Step One. Step two.

 

That is what I said. Nice to see you agree on something.

[Guest guest]

" Only if we are very serious about understanding the science of God is a guru required. We should not try to keep a guru as a matter of fashion. One who has accepted a guru speaks intelligently. He never speaks nonsense. That is the sign of having accepted a bona fide guru. We should certainly offer all respect to the spiritual master, but we should also remember how to carry out his orders. In the Bhagavad-gita (4.34) Sri Krsna Himself tells us the method of seeking out and approaching the guru:

 

 

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

 

pariprasnena sevaya

 

upadeksyanti te jnanam

 

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

 

 

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness."

 

mahak: Guru-disciple relationships are reciprocal. Relationship means two are relating as one. Srila Prabhupadas version is that "The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit". Any system that denies the guru having this right to be part of the reciprocal relationship really has nothing to do with prabhupada, no matter how they pledge their allegiance to him. When Srila Prabhupada was touring Self Realization Foundation Headquarters in Pacific Palisades Ca, ca 1968, he stated that the SRF idea of initiating disciples for Paramahamsa Yogananda years after his passing from this realm was a bogus idea. Srimad Bhagavatam has many stories of how a disciple approaches guru, asks pertenant questions, receives perfect answers. The best way to see if a physically present guru is re3quired, ask your guru.

 

The quotes by Prabhupada on this subject are always taken way out of context. Jayananda is missing him, Govinda dasi is feeling separation, and their spiritual master is telling them that his vani is just as good as his vapu. He has never said that Vapu has no place in his movement, like some insist. Ive heard very offensive misconstrued commentaries that minimize vapu, which flies in the face of all guru-shastra-sadhu, especially flies in the face of the instructions given above.

 

One does not have to find another spiritual master if ones guru passes away, because he resides in the heart of his disciple, there is no change in the ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIP between the two. I am not being offensive by saying Visvanatha Chakravarti is my sadhu, because this is attributing equal status with my guru, and shastra. Some think that to speak of Prabhupada as sadhu is minimizing him. Nonsense. The confusion that abounds in the world of those who claim to have Srila Prabhupada as ones life and soul indicate that many need to consult one who is an advanced disciple of his to learn all about him, what is pleasing to him, how to go about following his instructions in this changing world. If not, one must admit that they have no spiritual master other than their own minds and their kanistha adhikari speculations on what he meant by any of his teachings, especially his teachings on guru tattwa, as cited above.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS To answer your question, you must approach guru and ask to be accepted, and also you must be accepted. Are you willing to pretend that you are accepted, cutting the past acarya out of the equation?

[krsna 3]

tad viddhi pranipatena

 

pariprasnena sevaya

 

upadeksyanti te jnanam

 

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

 

 

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness."

[Guest guest]

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

 

pariprasnena sevaya

 

upadeksyanti te jnanam

 

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

 

 

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness."

 

If the guru doesnt fall down it is good, when my guru falls down I would go home to my parents and tell my dad and mon what happened. What else can I do? My parents are ready with this option and keep my room ready for me in case I return. They also pay a lot of money so my guru doesnt loose interest to do his job.

[Bhakta Devarsi 0]

mahaksa dasa says

 

 

mahak: Guru-disciple relationships are reciprocal. Relationship means two are relating as one. Srila Prabhupadas version is that "The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit". Any system that denies the guru having this right to be part of the reciprocal relationship really has nothing to do with prabhupada, no matter how they pledge their allegiance to him. When Srila Prabhupada was touring Self Realization Foundation Headquarters in Pacific Palisades Ca, ca 1968, he stated that the SRF idea of initiating disciples for Paramahamsa Yogananda years after his passing from this realm was a bogus idea. Srimad Bhagavatam has many stories of how a disciple approaches guru, asks pertenant questions, receives perfect answers. The best way to see if a physically present guru is re3quired, ask your guru.

 

Please tell us Mahaksa dasa, what then is the fate of the poor souls who Srila Prabhupada inititated through representatives for years without ever meeting them or even knowing their names?

 

And how does this speak to Srila Prabhupada's integrity as a Vaisnava to leave such a dangling participle which eventually would mean spiritual disaster.

 

Please enlighten us if you can.