The most humane way of killing an animal by Muslims and Jews

[krsna 3]

Animal welfare takes on religion

 

 

Cows can take too long to die under religious methods, say campaigners

The government has rejected a call to ban the method used to kill animals for halal and kosher meat that is required by Muslims and Jews.

While animal welfare activists claim the process is cruel, Jews and Muslims say the rules dictated by their ancient religious texts cannot be changed.

 

BBC News Online talked to some of the interested parties in the ongoing debate.

 

 

 

--

Last year the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) recommended that killing animals without stunning them first caused severe suffering.

However the rules governing halal and kosher meat production say the animal should be killed by a single cut to the throat and nothing else.

 

It must be alive and healthy before the slaughter, according to both the Jewish Torah law, and the Muslim Koran.

 

Some people have erroneously taken this message and decided the Muslim method is cruel

 

Masood Khawaja, HFA

 

But FAWC has maintained its position since first bringing up the possibility of a ban in 1985.

 

Chairwoman Judy MacCarthy-Clark said their work had at least brought about some changes in the handling of animals prior to and during slaughter.

 

"It is not a simple thing, to kill an animal without stunning it. The animal doesn't take to it very well," she said.

 

Although the government has ruled out an outright ban on the throat-cutting without prior stunning, it is consulting on whether animals should be stunned immmediately after the cut, rendering it unconscious.

 

 

'Natural convulsion'

 

"It is significant that the government has accepted there is pain and distress involved, she said.

 

This aspect of the report has angered the Jewish community.

 

Shechita UK promotes awareness of the "Jewish religious humane method of dispatching animals for food", known as 'shechita'.

 

 

Shechita is unequivocally humane and it cannot be compromised

 

Henry Grunwald, Shechita UK

 

Its chairman Henry Grunwald, who is also president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said the government had failed to publish evidence proving the animals suffered.

 

 

"In working constructively with the government, we will clarify that shechita is unequivocally humane and it cannot be compromised," he said.

 

The group says opposition to the method is often due to ignorance of the facts or "ill will " towards Jews.

 

FWAC insists that post-cut stunning would "significantly benefit cattle, who can remain conscious for up to 90 seconds after the incision," said Ms MacCarthy-Clark - an assertion Mr Grunwald calls "nonsensical".

 

"When the cut takes places there is an instant drop in blood pressure in the brain. The animal is dead," he said.

 

And president of the Halal Food Authority (HFA) Masood Khawaja has some doubts the suggested compromise will satisfy religious requirements.

 

Of vital importance, according to the Koran, is that the animal's blood flows from its body by "natural convulsion".

 

 

Embedded

 

"The post-cut stun would have to be looked at. It may affect the way the blood drains out, we would have to see what happened to the convulsions," he said.

 

He said HFA had been taking part in research to design new machinery that could carry out "controlled stunning" to the satisfaction of Muslims.

 

"We have animal welfare already encapsulated in our manifesto," he said.

 

"It covers all aspects, from transport, to conditions, to distress caused to the animals."

 

 

The method at the time the rules were written was probably the most humane way of killing an animal, but that has changed

 

Judy MacCarthy-Clark

 

While compromises may be found, there can be no movement from the Muslim and Jewish communities on what meat they can and cannot eat.

 

"The reason it is so important that the law should stay as it is, is that Muslims are forbidden by the Koran to eat carrion (flesh that is already dead), and they cannot eat flowing blood," said Mr Khawaja.

 

"Some people have erroneously taken this message and decided the Muslim method is cruel. If you use the sharp blade on the animal's throat they don't feel the pain.

 

"Jewish and Muslim methods cannot be changed, because they are in the religious books."

 

Ms MacCarthy-Clark said FAWC appreciates that these methods have been embedded in religion for thousands of years.

 

"The rules of both religions are concerned with welfare and hygiene.

 

"The method at the time the rules were written was probably the most humane way of killing an animal, but of course that has changed."

 

 

[theist 1]

Well there goes my breakfast appetite. I guess I'll feast on the oranges for lunch.

 

What barbarity in the name of religion.

[Govindaram 1]

 

Garden Conversation

with Professors, Chairman

of the Religion Dept. of U.S.C.,

and Dr. Stillson Judah, and others

--

June 24, 1975, Los Angeles

 

Therefore according to Vedic civilization, there are seven mothers. So you cannot kill your mother. That is not very good philosophy. And who can deny, "The cow is not mother"? Who has got this audacity? You are drinking milk in the very morning. Christ says, "Thou shall not kill?-wholesale killing stop." And the Vedic literature is little liberal. It does not say, "Thou shall not kill," but, <font color="red">"You shall not kill at least cow." </font color> But the wholesale stop is not possible. The Vedic wisdom knows that. But you shall not kill at least cow. That is civilization.

===

 

Govinda-lover of the cows.

[theist 1]

Of course slaughter house conditions didn't exist then. The soul that inhabits a pig or chicken is the same as the one in the cow.

 

Still it is an act of barbarism IMO.

 

There were also human sacrifices in vedic times. They would take what they called a man/animal as a victim. That is pretty barbaric IMO as well.

[Kulapavana 0]

animal sacrifices are forbidden in the age of Kali for lack of qualified hotris (sacrificial priests). in previous yugas brahmanas were so skilled that everybody could see the soul of the animal rising from the fire in a new heavenly body. that was the test of their skill and not the main event of the actual yagya. the good karma of the hotris paid for the new body for the sacrificed animal.

[theist 1]

I confess to lingering doubts on such things but don't try to make an issue of them.

 

How about the man/animal sacrifices?

[Kulapavana 0]

as far as I know these sacrifices were part of the black magic art in the Devi cult (from Atharva Veda). they were simply described, not recommended.

[theist 1]

It appears that mantras from the veda where chanted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

SB 9.7.20

 

TRANSLATION

 

Thereafter, in the sixth year, after wandering in the forest, Rohita returned to the capital of his father. He purchased from Ajégarta his second son, named Çunaùçepha. Then he offered Çunaùçepha to his father, Hariçcandra, to be used as the sacrificial animal and offered Hariçcandra his respectful obeisances.

 

PURPORT

 

It appears that in those days a man could be purchased for any purpose. Hariçcandra was in need of a person to sacrifice as the animal in a yajïa and thus fulfill his promise to Varuëa, and a man was purchased from another man for this purpose. Millions of years ago, animal sacrifice and slave trade both existed. Indeed, they have existed since time immemorial.

 

SB 9.7.21

 

TRANSLATION

 

Thereafter, the famous King Hariçcandra, one of the exalted persons in history, performed grand sacrifices by sacrificing a man and pleased all the demigods. In this way his dropsy created by Varuëa was cured.

SB 9.7.22

 

TRANSLATION

 

In that great human sacrifice, Viçvämitra was the chief priest to offer oblations, the perfectly self-realized Jamadagni had the responsibility for chanting the mantras from the Yajur Veda, Vasiñöha was the chief brahminical priest, and the sage Ayäsya was the reciter of the hymns of the Säma Veda.

[Kulapavana 0]

in Treta yuga the Vedic sacrifices dominated social life, but these times are over for now. In my days I have performed a few agni-hotras myself (no animals or man-animals were offered!) and I definitely dig this stuff... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist 1]

I thought the previous ages were supposed to have been times of high enlightenment. I would think buying someone as your son with the real purpose of having him sacrificed would fall under a different catagory.

 

And it makes me wonder why such a thing would even be in the Veda to begin with. This takes me back to my question of what really is eternal scripture. Surely such things have no relevance in the spiritual world.

[Guest guest]

It does not make sence to me.

Killing itself is a sin.

[Kulapavana 0]

we say "eternal Vedas" because they describe knowledge that relates to the Universe at all times, not just this life of Brahma, etc. Large part of Vedic knowledge is not spiritual, but it is still knowledge, or Veda.

 

You need to understand the vedic concept of sacrifice before you pass judgement on it - in a proper vedic sacrifice there are no losers, including living entities that are offered.

[theist 1]

I know what you are saying but I tend to think it's just an excuse. Sorry, just being honest. I admit I don't know.

 

But if it so benefical then why not accept volunteers instead of going out and buying a "son" for the sacrifice?

 

Instead they searched out a man/animal. Why don't the brahmana's line up?

[krsna 3]

Human society has degenerated in such a way, the killing business is increasing daily

 

We are creating our situation and serving different types of desire. And sometimes we are doing something which we should not do. Still, we are doing it. Although we have done so much to serve lust and greediness, they are not merciful. They are still dictating, “Go on doing this, go on doing this, go on doing.” We are suffering; still, we are following the dictation of lust and desire.

 

We are creating our own karma. Therefore any sane man will see that “I have served my desires for so long, but I am not happy.” The desire is never satiated that “You have killed so many animals. Now you don’t...” No, he will go on, go on killing, killing, killing, killing, killing, killing--- never satisfied, There is no stoppage. The injunction is “Thou shalt not kill,” but he will kill and kill and kill and kill, and still, he want to be satisfied. Just see. The Bible says, “Thou shalt not kill,” and they are simply engaged in the killing business, and still they want to be happy.

 

Therefore Krsna says, “Yes, you will be killed by an occasional world war. You must be killed. You have created this situation. You must be killed. You may be American or Englishman or German or this or that. You may be very proud of your nationality. But you must be killed.” This is the position. “You have killed so many animals. Now wholesale killing, one atom bomb. Be killed.” So these rascals do not know how things are going on. “Tit for tat.” If in ordinary laws, if you have killed somebody you must be hanged, so do you think you can simply bluff the Supreme Authority, Krsna, that you are killing, killing, killing, and you will be saved? No. You will be killed in pestilence, in famine, even within your mother’s womb, where it is supposed to be good protection, there also you will be killed. The human society has degenerated in such a way, the killing business is increasing daily, daily, daily.

 

We must therefore submit to Krsna. Because we cannot become free. We cannot go beyond the laws of God. That is not possible. Therefore we must surrender. “Krsna, God, I have acted freely in so many births. I did not become happy. Neither I am happy at the present moment. So now I surrender unto You. You say ‘I give you protection.’ So kindly give me protection.” This is the Krsna consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. (Class by Srila Prabhupada Dec. 3, 1973)

[akshar 1]

How disgusting! Were in Kali-Yug? I'm not so sure anymore. It does not matter how you kill, but it always will stick on to your karma. I think in the world it should be life for life. Anyone who eats meat should rot to death, it's so unbelieveably cruel. The feeling the poor animal goes through cannot be experienced by us humans. One day when all animals become extinct only then shall these animals learn that they have feeligs too and have nerves which feel pain too, just like us. We can't hear it because of ther language but hteir screamng in pain at this evil stuff that goes on. Kali maa worshippers are the worst. In one temple in Kathmandu (Nepal) they slash heads of animals and squirt all their blood in the river of blood then they go home and eat the animal they sacrificed. I hope kali ma destroys them for doing something so evil. In the veds it says to sacifice GRAINS AND RICE but when buddha read the veds he misenterpreted the word used for grains and rice as they in sanskrit they both mean animals too. Learn you fools! Killing is wrong!!

[akshar 1]

If you disagree im happy for a debate

[Guest guest]

 

If you disagree im happy for a debate

 

 

I disagree that all killing is bad. I have worked at Hydro electric dams and have killed many seagulls that feed on little baby salmon. The build up in massive numbers and relentlessly feed on little baby hatchery salmon during the release periods. I have seen coyotes that will eat the ass end right out of a cow when it is giving birth. To say you should just sit back and let things like that happen seems stupid to me. I respect Vedic thought and nonviolence to animals but there are circumstances where I think predatory animals should be killed.

 

-D.B. Cooper Jr.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

I disagree that all killing is bad. I have worked at Hydro electric dams and have killed many seagulls that feed on little baby salmon. The build up in massive numbers and relentlessly feed on little baby hatchery salmon during the release periods. I have seen coyotes that will eat the ass end right out of a cow when it is giving birth. To say you should just sit back and let things like that happen seems stupid to me. I respect Vedic thought and nonviolence to animals but there are circumstances where I think predatory animals should be killed.

 

-D.B. Cooper Jr.

 

To say you should just sit back and let things like that happen seems stupid to me. I respect Vedic thought and nonviolence to animals but there are circumstances where I think predatory animals should be killed.

 

I agree. We also must try to convince everyone that the highest ideal of all scriptures and faith traditions is to show mercy and prudence in dealing with other living entities - we can try to help people to see that the trend is that peoples and societies have to move past the flesh eating.

 

In the bible there is a great deal of information about this and we know from the bible and other biblical sources that in the messianic age even the natural meat eaters like lions - shall not eat flesh.

 

We even see that humans shall interact withthe wild beasts - without fear and enmity.

 

There is the issue of bird flu pandemic and why is it that there is such a global risk growing and yet people are still saying pass the chicken?

 

It must not take a plague to change the thinking of the people.

 

On the issues of kosher - I would question that the cows are not kosher - the calves having been raised on blood and later other foods mixed with blood - how is that kosher? Forget that in the Talmud it says that if a butcher kills a cow with a defective knife he will be doomed to take birth as a cow to suffer like that. So how does that equate with the slughterhouse kosher?

 

The Talmud gives that explication saying that it is not permissible that the cow aught to suffer - there are myriad of evidences that the cows do suffer - greatly - in the slaughter now.

 

I have a video that I got from the peta site - that shows the butcher kicking the blood into the face of the cow - as she flails all over the floor in her own blood.

 

Where was the understanding in that? How often does this go on?

 

The kosher laws were not given to govern the modern slaughterhouse factory farm operations - not in the least.

 

So I would implore that the same is true of Halal.

 

I pray that these things enter the minds of those who think that it's all kosher etc.,...the best way to be kosher is to not eat flesh at all...