? for Narayana Maharaja Disciple

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

I first want to say that I do not want this to turn into a debate between Iskcon and narayana .

That being said, have a question about why ISKCON is so against Narayana Disciples being able to go to their temples or what is the rift between them?

What is Narayana Mharaja preaching that ISKCON is so afraid of, or against?

I am a fairly new devotee (6 months) and just cannot figure out what the issues are here?

I just want to be clear in my head what the issues are, not just what you hear from people who really do not know what they are talking about, it is just heresay to them also.

Thank you for answering in advance, and please no fights, I just want an idea of the issues that are disputed.

Haribol

 

[Guest guest]

If you go to this page

http://www.dipika.org/downloads/

 

you will find the article described below, by Ravindra Svarupa dasa, in which he presents various facts about Narayana Maharaj and his relation with ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada

 

 

Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight

by Ravindra Svarupa dasa

 

Refuting the theory that Narayana Maharaja is Srila Prabhupada's successor.

 

 

Download "Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight"

[Guest guest]

This article by a disciple of Srila Sridhara Maharaja is also worth reading

 

http://www.mandala.com.au/rupanuga

[Guest guest]

read everything you want and have your personal idea on the subject.. but the most important thing is that you have not to allow to anyone, any authority, any sect, any group, council, leadership to prevent you to associating with anyone who is chanting hare krishna and appreciating him

 

no conception of krishna consciousness, no wrong or partial interpretation of the gaudya siddhanta can give to you more problems to the spiritual life than developing some despise and adversity towards anyone, single or group, master or disciple, practising hare krishna mantra..

 

and learn to give and appreciate only judgements on single people, not groups... a judgement to a group is in itself offensive even without checking the truth

 

only great acharyas, full of mercy can do it for preaching purposes

[gHari 0]

So perhaps it is best to remain humble in the presence of these various esteemed personalities.

 

Perhaps think of one as teaching high siddhanta valuable only to elevated unconditioned souls. When we are no longer conditioned then we will need not ask these questions of who and what to hear. At that point, the monkey mind chatter will no longer be guiding our foolery.

 

But do not become an expert in such affairs of judging right and wrong, for as gHari says "Our greatness is only eclipsed by our arrogance". And this is always true, absolutely.

 

gHari

(Not on the fence; just not in this world)

 

[Dervish 0]

Haribol prabhu,

 

This thread could potentially become a big flamewar, so everyone posting here needs to give the information in a sensitive, yet truthful manner. I'm going to do my VERY best not to inject my opinion into this post. If you truly have a friend who is a disciple of Narayan Maharaj who is bewhildered as to the situation, then he needs to be informed.

 

Narayan Maharaj was at first welcome in many of the ISKCON temples. This was back in the year 1996 or so (his first world tour). He insisted that he was only taking parikrama of all the temples that Srila Prabhupad had made. Eventually he started to give initiation, and sometimes, would reinitiate people with an ISKCON guru.

 

So NM was no longer allowed on ISKCON property. Some of his disciples started to come to ISKCON property and preach to new bhaktas or even some initiated devotees. This is when communication between ISKCON and NM and his IGVS broke down.

 

At this point, various ISKCON people wrote position papers and charged NM with speaking on very high rasik topics and of course reinitiating ISKCON disciples. NM has some intelligent disciples so they wrote their own reply papers. So they go back and forth.

 

The fact is, some of the most senior members of ISKCON have listened to these rasik topics from NM years ago in the early 1990's in Mathura. Why they choose to make public their contentions then, it could be a variety of reasons.

 

NM is not extremely popular among the Gaudiya Math acharyas either. He has even re-initiated among GM acharyas, but all keep silent. The only ones among the GM who have publicly verbalized their contentions about NM are the SCS Math, but just about every major preacher from GM has a contention about NM; whether it is because of philosophical differences or if he reinitiated one of their disciples.

 

Also some controversy arose a year or so ago about NM plagiarizing the works of Ananta Das Babaji. One disciple who had translated NM's books word for word later read books by ADB and discovered the words were identical. So several NM disciples left for ADB as well. (does anyone have the article?)

 

What does all this mean? It means whatever you make of it. You can either say that NM is as big a power mongerer as ISKCON was during the 1980's (etc.), or that he is a great soul maligned only out of jealousy. The latter is the belief of the NM disciples.

 

It's important for your friend to know about these problems as soon as possible, and learn what the NM IGVS camp has to say about these charges, so at least when somebody asks HIM about it, he will have an answer, one way or another.

[Guest guest]

These are but a few replies. Many more are available. Ultimately, one should decide for himself/herself by associating and inquiring from Srila Narayana Maharaja, along with his senior disciples. I use the word "senior" because at this point in time, Srila Maharaja's mission has grown so large that, as in any grand mission, there are bound to be a few fanatics who do not properly represent Srila Narayana Maharaja, just as there were in Iskcon who did not properly represent Srila Prabhupada.

 

The issues raised by the doubters are generally flooded with half-truths, or no truths at all, and are generally politically-motivated. I believe that now that Srila Maharaja's mission is so large, on a world-wide scale, it is no longer necessary to write position papers in his defense. One may simply visit him when he travels to your corner of the planet and/or speak with his senior sannyasi disciples about any and all doubts which one may have. I have had doubts myself in the past, due to all the Iskcon propaganda. However, after a few simple queries, those doubts were put to rest. After a while, one realizes that the accusations against Srila Narayana Maharaja are so utterly absurd, and that they continue non-stop despite so many rational replies, that in a strange sense, it is a testament to his pure unadulterated preaching.

 

"Grateful for a Good Reply", by Arundhati devi dasi http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0008/ET08-6127.html

 

"Shouting Like Hell", by Jnanadas http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9907/ET26-4377.html

 

and

 

"Who is a Real Disciple of Srila Prabhupada" by Agrahya das, in response to an Iskcon position paper by Badrinarayana das http://www.vnn.org/world/9807/13-1910/

 

 

Bhakta Samosa

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you Prabhu for answering my question. I don't want politically motivated answers, but basic these are the issues answers. I just want to understand why there is this war against 2 sides. My friend who is a Narayana disciple says it is all just a bunch of politics, and it looks that way.

One thing I don't get is why there is a problem with him initiating?

Isn't that a good thing? For more people to become Krishna Concious and dedicate their lives to Krishna?

Anyone able to explain that?

[gHari 0]

Initiation is of course fine, but reinitiation can be considered impolite, at least if the first guru is held by Krsna as bona fide and acting in line with Srila Prabhupada's parampara. One of Srila Prabhupada's most respected disciples, Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja has pleaded: "No one should leave ISKCON". That is the position.

 

It is in very poor taste to take the mercy of Srila Prabhupada for granted. There is a debt that must be paid, even though it can never be fully repaid, no matter how much service one continues to perform to help realize Srila Prabhupada's visions constantly extending his pure service to Sri Sri Radha-Krsna in this world.

 

No one should leave ISKCON.

 

That's all. Don't get mixed up in the battles above you; have no opinion. Otherwise in our arrogance we offend. Only Srila Prabhupada can spit in the kitchen sink; we do not spit in the sink and neither should we presume to know these higher things. Needing to have an opinion is simply an ego thing - it is okay to not know.

 

<center><img src=http://canoeparts.ca/KINGDOM/GaurangaGold.jpg>

Prabhupada's Visions

Are Worth Saving</center>

gHari

 

 

[Guest guest]

"I'm going to do my VERY best not to inject my opinion into this post."

 

no, you can't.. judging devotees is not possible to be neutral, you have to be strong and loyal, you have to take responsibility, be aware of the possible reaction if you make a mistake and offering shelter of yours or of your spiritual master to the disciples or the master you defeat philosophically

 

this is the vaishnava way.. responsability, if you break my beliefs, you have to give me your ones

[Guest guest]

"No one should leave ISKCON"

 

to leave iskcon could be joining an organization called iskcon but very different from prabhupad's iskcon

 

"Everyone must join ISKCON"

 

to join the real prabhupad's iskcon could be to accept a spiritual master not coming from the organization called iskcon

 

i do not propose it as a truth, but we must be open to the idea that the iskcon organization could have remained only a brand, and that the real legacy of srila prabhupada could be now in the hands of other devotees not belonging to the iskcon organization

 

or simply that the iskcon organization has no more the monopoly of the prabhupada's succession and following

 

let us consider more deeply what joining iskcon or remaining in iskcon can be.. srila gaura govinda maharaja was very close to be rejected by iskcon.... in this circumstance surely gaura govinda maharaja could have be considered "more iskcon than iskcon"

[Dervish 0]

no, you can't.. judging devotees is not possible to be neutral,

 

I didn't judge any devotees, if you read my post again you'll see I reported well-known occurances without passing judgment. Both sides acknowledge these events. Every incident which you may find objectionable have all been rationalized by NM and senior disciples. The only judgment that has been made today is the mental judgment you have made in your mind, and that indicates that you need to re-evaluate your beliefs.

[gHari 0]

His words were very straight forward. Please, do not become irrational here.

[Guest guest]

Forced to decide either or, I chose neither and discovered in my heart I could be both. His Divine Grace will never be confined within one guru or group. Lord Caitanya is obviously beyond all that. If we are to be with Him, so must we find ourselves.

 

Externally is one thing, but internally quite another. Though our bodies can only be in one place at a time, our hearts expand to include everyone and everything. Absolute Truth cannot be isolated in any way, shape or form. Our fidelity is to the spiritual/internal as opposed to the material/external energy.

 

Our responsibility as individuals while obligated to the group, remains with our personal relationship to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, i.e. Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. Each of us is obligated to work on his or herself in that respect, over and above all else.

 

I'm in no position to criticize anyone, yet I must accept the authorities presiding over whatever temple or association I find myself in. Respect is always required and those who choose to confront others can only blame themselves for the responses received. A quiet humble service attitude is usually welcomed everyywhere.

 

Certainly there are philosophical differences, but oneness is also available for we who seek it. This movement will continue on in spite of apparent divisiveness and conflicts. Why argue or even discuss controversies when we don't yet have the necessary realizations or Grace to resolve them? Better to stick with whatever sadhana we've been prescribed and try not to disturb that of others'.

 

After all, bhakti is about love and fighting over love seems particularly non-productive, wouldn't you agree? On the other hand, I certainly would not recommend anyone these days to rush into an iniation that may limit their freedom of choice or find them alienated. One can still accept and serve without the formalities. Frankly, I prefer being courted...

[Guest guest]

"His words were very straight forward. Please, do not become irrational here"

 

your opinion, i do not think to be irrational, there's no guarantee that under a brand there's the real thing, if we do not check it.. let us not became catholics that the church organization is in itself a spiritual entity indipendent on who is a leader or a pratictioneer inside it

 

if i wear t-shirts with the face of prabhupada, sridhara maharaja, bhaktisiddhanta maharaja, jesus christ or buddha this does not make me automatically a follower

[krsna 3]

One of Srila Prabhupada's most respected disciples, Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja has pleaded: "No one should leave ISKCON". That is the position.

[krsna 3]

 

 

The following is an excerpt from an arrival lecture given in 1992 in Bhubaneswar India by His Holiness Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja.

 

..." Next thing, this Sacinandana Swami in Heidelberg, Germany, he asked me, "Maharaja, why have you come ? What is the purpose of your coming now ? You have so much bodily problem, you cannot move freely. So much thing I could notice. Still you are doing alot of touring, travelling and preaching. What is your purpose ?" He asked me. I said, " Maharaja, I have dedicated my life, my body, my mind, my speech, everything I've dedicated for the service of Guru and Gauranga and my revered spiritual master, Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Maharaja has founded this International Society for Krsna Consciousness, like his life, his body. He is getting so much pain now, I could feel so. After his disappearance, many left, so- called sannyasis, leaders, those who have joined the other camp, Sridhara Maharaja camp and some other camp and they are now criticising ISKCON, criticising Srila Prabhupada, committing such great offense they couldn't understand, and they must get punishment for it, definitely. But what they say, it is intolerable on my part, intolerable, especially in Rome.

 

They showed me that booklet they are publishing, Sadjana Tosani, and they have put the name of my guru maharaja there, Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, then Bhaktiraksa Sridhara, then Govinda maharaj. Why have they put the name of my guru maharaja ?

 

Devotee: It's cheating.

 

Gour Govinda maharaja:

Cheating, yes they are cheating. You are publishing your booklet, then you'll put your name. But the photo of my guru maharaja, "Guru maharaja said" articles they have printed there and telling these ISKCON devotees that Bhaktivedanta Swami taught, gave only elementary knowledge, A B C. He has not given any higher Vaisnava philosophy, education.

 

Now, after Bhaktiraksita Sridhara maharaja, Govinda maharaja is keeping it up, "please come and join." So they are just tricking and stealing the men of ISKCON. And that is intolerable, very painful. I got such a shock in my heart. These fools, who are going there. They are fools ! I chastised them, "Why you are such a fool ? You believe them ? You don't believe Prabhupada who fulfilled the desire of Gauranga Mahaprabhu ?

 

prthivi-parajanta jata ache desa-grama

sarvatra sancara hoibek mora nama. C.B Antya 4.126

 

Who did it ? Did they do it ? Srimad Bhaktisiddanta Prabhupada maharaj already sent, prior to the coming of my guru maharaj to the West, he sent Bhakti Tirtha, Bhakti Hrdaya Bon maharaj and some others. Why they couldn't do ? They were sannyasis, they were living in the math with Bhaktisiddanta, but my guru maharaja was a grhasta, he was living in his home. he was not matha-vasi, staying in the matha. He was not a sannyasi at that time, he was a grhasta. But he could get the complete, full mercy, complete mercy of Bhaktisiddanta, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, specially empowered person, an empowered devotee. Who could fulfil the desire of all previous acaryas, especially Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati. Who came to the West. Who sowed the seed, who laid the foundation of Krsna Consciousness.

 

Who fulfilled the desire of Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu. Specially empowered.

 

He's empowered. Can't you understand this thing, why couldn't they do this thing ? Why do they come at this time and do now, when the atmosphere is created, the platform is there, foundations are already laid some construction is there ? Now they are coming. Now you are going there, leaving ISKCON camp. Such foolishness ! You are such a fool. Can't you understand this thing ? Thereby they are committing such offence. He has given only elementary knowledge A B C, nothing higher ? You can't understand what he has said. When a tiny seed is there, it contains, like the seed of a banyan tree. So tiny but it contains a great banyan tree inside. You fool cannot understand this thing. So intolerable. As a disciple of my guru maharaja and as a member of this founded society ISKCON, it is our duty to keep up the prestige. Yes, it is our duty now.

 

So, when Sacinandana Swami asked me, I said this thing. Therefore I have come, and I am now coming and touring, very extensive tour I am doing...

 

...Yes, that is my only purpose. So I am coming and teaching. And I want to make them 'mum', shut their mouth. Now there is higher teaching in ISKCON.

 

Yes, the time has come now. The time has come when my guru maharaja, he gave everything in seed form. That seed will now be fructified. Yes, it contains everything and you should understand. You are so foolish you cannot understand this thing. What my guru maharaja said in one word, in one sentence, it needs further explanation. One word, one sentence contains and you can't understand, you're such fools. ...

 

End.

 

In 1994 in New York, U.S.A, Srila Gour Govinda Swami made the following statement regarding his mission;

 

" My mission is to show how Prabhupada has put everything in his books. The Gaudiya matha, they criticise that Prabhupada only taught A B C, and this gives me so much pain in my heart. So my mission is to show how everything is there in Prabhupada's books and make them 'mum' and so nobody will leave ISKCON."

 

The following are two letters written by His Holiness Srila Gour Govinda Swami. One to Gudakesa das and one to Goloka Vrndavan das:

 

Dear Gudakesa das

 

Hare Krsna. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for your letter, undated. I have gone through it carefully and noted the contents.

 

My opinion is that Srila Prabhupada will not be happy with these senior devotees going outside of ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada has said that everything is in his books. If you try to understand this, then by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada it will all be made clear to you.

 

It is a fact that if an elevated Vaisnava is there, then one should go and take his association. There is no harm in that. But in this case there is a danger that the discipline in our organisation will be affected adversely. If the leaders are going outside of ISKCON, how will we be able to maintain discipline ? Srila Prabhupada has formed this society, and this THREAT (my emphasis) to his society will only cause him PAIN (my emphasis).

 

With this consideration, they should not go. That will only lead to indiscipline in our society.

 

Two sides are there; philosophical and organisational. On the organisational side, this practice is not good. Therefore we have this GBC body which makes so many rules to maintain the discipline of the members of our society. But how will we be able to keep discipline now ? No one will listen, 'if the leaders are going, why should we listen, we will also go'.

 

This will create only trouble.

 

May this letter find you in the best of health and a blissful mood of Krsna consciousness.

 

Your servant

 

Gour Govinda Swami Dated 3/11/94

 

next letter:

 

Dear Goloka Vrndavan das,

 

Hare Krsna. May you have the blessings of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga all the time. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for your letter dated Oct., 23 1993, which I have just received. I have gone through it carefully and noted the contents.

 

You mention that many devotees are loosing faith in ISKCON and are leaving our society to find shelter elsewhere. That is not good. THEY SHOULD NOT LEAVE ISKCON ; that will never please Srila Prabhupada.

 

Develop patience and tolerance, and pray to Srila Prabhupada from the core of your heart. How is it that he will not help you ?...

 

I hope this letter finds you in good health and a blissful mood of Krsna consciousness,

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada

 

Gour Govinda Swami. Dated 18/12/93

 

 

 

 

Of course, if one is crooked, one may try to twist what has been said in the above texts . Some so called godbrothers of mine have done this, but for the honest devotee, I'm sure it is clear. No doubt some will try to reply with all kinds of philosophical word jugglery, this and that, but we should try to understand things as it is, not in a crooked way.

 

Some gross untruths;

 

" Because of their intimate relationship, it was Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj who installed the murti of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj in the Krsna-Balaram mandir in Bhubaneswar."

 

Well, that's not exactly the fact. Yes, Narayan Maharaj was there as were many other senior vaisnavas, and one of Narayan Maharaj's disciples did help with the fire sacrafice, but to say that Narayan Maharaj installed the murti of my Gurudeva is a little exaggerated to say the least.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

consider that srila maharaja is not essentially criticizing gaudya math, he's criticizing the ones who say that prabhupada has given only "abc"... that is not a gaudya math position, right or wrong, it is only some devotee's position.

 

to remain in iskcon is to surrender to devotees like srila prabhupada, srila gaura govinda maharaja and others like them... give to us devotee like them and we will follow them in any organization, no problem

[Guest guest]

HH Gour Govinda Maharaja: "...Srila Prabhupada has said that everything is in his books. If you try to understand this, then by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada it will all be made clear to you..."

 

Of course this is true, in fact everything is contained in the Maha-mantra! When the individual seed of devotion sprouts however, will it receive the personal nurturing needed within ISKCON as it exists at this time? Does the obvious empowerment and spiritual perfection of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada automatically assure and guarantee for all time that the institution he created will be all things to all devotees forevermore? Common sense, what to speak of historical events, seems to tell us otherwise.

 

So what then is a sincere devotee to do when honest queries are stifled and he/she finds him/herself isolated, even shunned by the community? Most desire and need some personal association, including deep and lasting friendship, from other similar-minded devotees. Finding themselves forced to choose to continue surrendering to an increasingly istitutionalized structure unable or unwilling to fulfill the desperate desires now blossoming in their hearts, under penalty of being banned from participating in it's temples or at any of it's festivals, obviously puts them in a completely untenable and I feel, unnecessary position.

 

Srila Prabhupada created a "house for the entire world to live in", but it's up to those managing and maintaining the house to help make it into an inviting home. Someone on this forum asked what "godbrothers" are, receiving only one answer -- those who share the same guru. This kind of self-limiting vision can only divide, not unite us. After, the question wasn't about "gurubrothers", was it? Still, the answer was correct according to it's common usage today.

 

Personally I cannot afford to care about supposed political machinations at the top. My concern is for the troops in their trenches, many having become isolated and alone. This is simply wrong. Who can blame those denied shelter for finding it elsewhere, when they are embraced there with open arms? Our family will be as all-inclusive as WE choose it to be. The heart knows no limits, neither does Lord Sri Krsna-Caitanya's Sankirtan Movement.

 

Some things most of us are not in a position to change, nor is it our responsibility. Still we can try to not only welcome newcomers, but continue to relate as brothers and sisters in one loving family, refusing to allow apparent external differences to create bad feelings that separate us where it really counts. My heart cries for what is said and done in the name of guru acharyas no longer physically present to speak for themselves. Therefore I will not provide quotes to counter others' quotes in order to support my opinions. Love and devotion are not merely cheap sentiments and our spiritual relationships require at least as much effort as others do, which means respected the emotional component also.

 

That includes not only with God and guru, but each other as well. Simple kindness and genuine heartfelt warmth should not, in my humble opinion, be lost in the frantic rush to reach some blissful personal nirvana ourselves, often to the neglect or even at the expense of others. The basic rule of bhakti is you first, prabhu. Here's another -- your pain is mine. Stictly following disciplined sadhana may be enough for some, for awhile anyway, while truly devotional service remains ever-elusive. Perhaps it's time for each to re-examine their priorities. Gurudeva is likened to a desire tree and God can be seen as a personal order supplier. Achieving a happy, health life for ourselves and family is not what it's all about, again imho.

[Guest guest]

 

HH Gour Govinda Maharaja: "...Srila Prabhupada has said that everything is in his books. If you try to understand this, then by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada it will all be made clear to you..."

 

Of course this is true, in fact everything is contained in the Maha-mantra! When the individual seed of devotion sprouts however, will it receive the personal nurturing needed within ISKCON as it exists at this time? Does the obvious empowerment and spiritual perfection of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada automatically assure and guarantee for all time that the institution he created will be all things to all devotees forevermore? Common sense, what to speak of historical events, seems to tell us otherwise.

 

 

 

Don't read more into Gour Govinda Swamis words then he meant,He was being specific to a mentality that is prevelant

among many of Ex iskconites,gaudiya math followers

and others,that is the concept of either "siddha pranali"

or raganuga sadhana being neglected by Srila Prabhupada or in some cases the disparaging

of the sadhana and other assorted methods of Vaidhi

bhakti A.C. Bhaktivedanta taught as being a deviation.

 

He wasn't wholesale condemning all ,he was on a specific

mission to counter these ideas,just that there are many

who feel it necessary to make it their business

to "elevate" iskcon to the "higher" understanding,

not realizing that their so called "higher"

tattva is delusional,everything is in Srila Prabhupadas

books and words,this doesn't mean there is no value

outside that milieu but there are those who

see in a different conception then Srila Prabhupada,

they feel the need to "elevate" the discourse,

when all they do is muddle it.

[Guest guest]

"...Don't read more into Gour Govinda Swamis words then he meant..."

 

Please don't read more into MY words than I meant only to make your point [undisputed] which has already been made before many times. As clearly stated, the first part of his quote is obvious. It's the rest I'm attempting to comment on:

 

HH Gour Govinda Maharaja: "...Srila Prabhupada has said that everything is in his books. If you try to understand this, then by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada it will all be made clear to you..."

 

What is one to do when devotional sentiments actually fructify "by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada" and questions, etc. are intentionally stifled en masse? Of course, the usual "sahajiya" accusations are enviously flung by those not at all interested in "trying to understand this". Is "it will all be made clear to you" expected to occur without the supportive encouragement of siksa gurus and like-minded godbrothers/sisters? If "all" was somehow "made clear" in the present day vacuum many perceive within ISKCON temples, what kind of a reaction should one look forward to? Let me add here that I'm speaking from personal experience with several temples, gurus and GBC members...

 

Can anyone definitely state that particular subject matter and certain emotional sentiments are not frowned on, to say the least? Because Srila Prabhupada was and is perfect, must ISKCON itself be accepted as beyond all criticism forever? My suggestions are aimed at personal solutions easily implemented by concerned persons, not the usual cheap criticism of authorities faced with their own difficult concerns I also sympathize with. Was that not made clear in my post?

 

More than a few on these forums who refuse to address these issues, preferring to condemn the well-meaning messenger often speaking from personal experiences, have little or nothing to do with ISKCON temples. Is this kind of verbal allegiance to Prabhupada and ISKCON to be equated with that of those struggling daily in those same temples? Need I name those high-profile individuals and risk censure from the moderators, or will honesty and sincerity prevail so that together we can hopefully improve the situation? Thanks for caring.

 

 

 

 

'

[Guest guest]

look if you have a problem with individuals you felt

had treated you unfairly or unkindly that is not what Gour

Govinda Swami was speaking about,you will find imperfect souls in among all groups of followers ,if you want to point at some people

you had a bad experience with you should understand that

not to be what Gour Govinda Swami was trying to clarify.

 

He wasn't claiming that everyone in iskcon is perfect

and self realized or free from all anarthas,i put it to you

this is the same everywhere,in all schools or groups,

no groups of disciples are going to be perfect in your

vision or dealings in every single instance or person.

 

The problems of your experience were based on personal imperfections,the Maharaja was trying to relate a philosphical ideal, If you want to turn that into

a reason to seek association outside of Iskcon

no one is stopping you,His words were to the effect

that those who claim a "higher" plane of teaching

or sadhana are fooling themselves,I agree , If you have

some question about these things and some one in Iskcon

treated you unfairly that is a personal imperfection,

don't be like those who have an agenda to discredit

Srila Prabhupada as a teacher for beginners and try to use

imperfections in individuals as their deconstructing tool of choice.

 

Not that you are doing that,but i have seen this going on.

[yasodanandana 0]

this a very nice and constructive way to conduct this discussion... my obeisances to you and all the other devotees who have given their opinions..

[gHari 0]

His name is Caitya-guru. Let no one overlook Him or there is no sense in continuing the personality cultish charade.

 

Krsna is not as limited and impotent as many seem to think. He is not bound by words and titles and bricks and steel.

 

He is Guru. He is always Guru.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Krsna, thank you for showing me these quotes of Gaura Govinda Swami. Now I am certain that he is a kanistha adhikari.

 

Gaur Govinda Swami said:

 

<blockquote>

They showed me that booklet they are publishing, Sadjana Tosani, and they have put the name of my guru maharaja there, Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, then Bhaktiraksa Sridhara, then Govinda maharaj. Why have they put the name of my guru maharaja ?

 

Devotee: It's cheating.

 

Gour Govinda maharaja:

Cheating, yes they are cheating. You are publishing your booklet, then you'll put your name. But the photo of my guru maharaja, "Guru maharaja said" articles they have printed there and telling these ISKCON devotees that Bhaktivedanta Swami taught, gave only elementary knowledge, A B C. He has not given any higher Vaisnava philosophy, education.

 

Now, after Bhaktiraksita Sridhara maharaja, Govinda maharaja is keeping it up, "please come and join." So they are just tricking and stealing the men of ISKCON. And that is intolerable, very painful. I got such a shock in my heart. These fools, who are going there. They are fools ! I chastised them, "Why you are such a fool ? You believe them ? You don't believe Prabhupada who fulfilled the desire of Gauranga Mahaprabhu ?

</blockquote>

 

This is pure cult mentality.

 

Like saying, "Only Prabhupada knows anything about Krishna. None of the other disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati know anything. Only Prabhupada."

 

But when Prabhupada is also saying "Sridhar Maharaj is a pure devotee", and "Sridhar Maharaj is my siksa guru", then Gaura Govinda Swami says, NO No NO No NO.

 

"No, don't show any respect to Sridhar Maharaj. He is Gaudiya Math. He is evil." ISKCON is wonderful, even if it makes a few mistakes, by letting homosexuals, drug addicts and criminals become gurus, ISKCON is much better than Sridhar Maharaj. He is Gaudiya Math. He is bad.