same ? again

[Guest guest]

1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics.....

it is not that we have already devotees doing other activities and for the decree of the organisation.. "stop to be a pujari or a book distributor... now you are a politician"

 

I am sorry, but this is yet another strawman. I spoke of a pure Vaishnava's inclination, which is self-explanatory. I never said anything about an organization issuing a "decree" to the pure Vaishnava, ordering him to change his natural varna or ashram.

 

"have you the tendency to be a brahmana, vaisya, ksatrya, sudra... no problem, add hare krishna and your life will be sublime and that's all"....

 

This was Srila Prabhupada's message from the very beginning, if you study his books.

 

"but as it stands now, we are still in short supply of pure devotees who would enter the political arena and manage the masses"

•••that's the sensible point.... no devotee has to enter in political arena if he's not already there!! but we have to do our best, preaching in the priestly way if we are brahmanas, preaching mostly with the example if we are another class, that everyone in any social position meets the holy name and if he's already a politician he will start to render service in this way/

 

Okay, it sounds to me that the problem we are having may be one of semantics. The way I worded the above statement has perhaps given you the impression that I am opposed to folks who are already involved in politics being introduced to the holy name and Bhakti Yoga and becoming pure Vaishnavas. However, that was not my intention, and I certainly do not believe in that way, and I do believe other statements I have made will support the fact that I have been advocating preaching, becoming pure devotees ourselves, depending on Krsna (saranagati), and having faith that He will carry what we lack and preserve what we have. If Krsna feels that drastic changes are needed in the political arena, He will arrange for this to happen, without any separate endeavor on our part, other than our continued preaching, as well as our purifying the ether by chanting, praying, and rendering service to pure devotees (whether they happen to belong to official spiritual institutions/Maths, or otherwise.) I am for the natural approach, and I believe you echoed this in your last post, as well as this one. I have advocated preaching since the beginning of my participation in this thread, and by no means am I opposed to preaching to politicians, and by no means am I suggesting that everyone drop everything, join a Temple, and become a monk. You seem to think that this is my stance, but I can assure you that it is not. When I speak of preaching, I am talking about preaching indiscriminately, to people from all walks of life, to anyone interested, and asking them to simply add the chanting of Hare Krsna to their lives, without giving up their chosen professions. I guess I felt that this goes without saying, but apparently I need to spend a little extra time qualifying each and every sentence I write.

 

There is much more I could reply to, but I sense that I would mostly be repeating myself, as well as having to point out how you have misunderstood what I was saying.

 

Bhakta Dan

 

 

[Guest guest]

Also, when I spoke of pure Vaishnavas entering into politics, I was referring to great Acaryas, not Temple devotees who for the most part are engaging in sadhana bhakti and not yet pure. When one enters politics, he will usually be in a position of power. We have seen so many examples of devotees with positions of power (who were considered "pure" by their disciples and peers) who abused their positions of power. So, whether one enters politics as a Vaishnava, or is introduced to Vaishnavism while already situated in politics, being pure would seem to be a prerequisite. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A devotee politician, if he is not pure, could conceivably cause more harm than good. We have witnessed examples of this within Temple politics, dealing with devotees. So, what to speak of a Vaishnava politician with power and responsibility over millions (including non-devotees who may be vehemently opposed to his leadership.) But again, I qualify this statement by saying that yes, we should still preach to everyone, including politicians, and hope that they become pure devotees, and hope that if they are not yet pure, that they will seek counsel from those who are. I would absolutely love to see pure Vaishnavas engaged effect positive changes via politics. I am not opposed to this happening. However, I stand by my statements that there is a shortage of pure devotees, as well as a shortage of politicians who are inclined to take up the process of Bhakti Yoga and become pure. Hence, my position is that we preach, but at the same time, keep a cool head and depend upon Krsna, no matter how unfavorable external circumstances seem to be. There is even a statement in the Nectar of Devotion that if a devotee continues his bhakti with full determination, despite all obstacles, tolerating the results of his past karma, that such a devotee will attain Krsna as his birthright. No separate or artificial endeavor is required. Sure, it would be wonderful if the climate was much more favorable for executing devotional service. But if we are sincere, Krsna will carry what we lack, and preserve what we have. Again, the example of Srila Prabhupada's first meeting with his Gurudeva comes to mind. Srila Prabhupada was thinking (divine lila) that Indian politics must first be rectified. His Gurudeva corrected him, and the rest is history. (Divine lila.)

 

your servant,

 

Bhakta Dan

[yasodanandana 0]

prabhu, please take my opinions as inspirated by your messages and not critics:

 

We have seen so many examples of devotees with positions of power (who were considered "pure" by their disciples and peers) who abused their positions of power

••••if you are speaking of fallen gurus, simply they were not uttama adhikari and the falling in these cases is automatic... if you speak of managers it is simple, they were not making their karma ... in italy between temple presidents we had musicians, singers, truck drivers, hippies/beggars, cooks, architects and so on... it is a miracle if we have still some very nice hare krishna temples with so few real managers.

 

So, whether one enters politics as a Vaishnava, or is introduced to Vaishnavism while already situated in politics, being pure would seem to be a prerequisite.

•••it would be very nice, but even a neophite has to execute his karma in krsna consciousness, otherwise how he can advance? so the politician who accepts krsna consciousness obviously accept a spiritual master (or there's no question of krsna consciousness!), and this master will be the guide of this ksatrya neophite in devotion on how to trasform his karma in bhakti. I repeat, we cannot stop our activities waiting to be pure devotees, because if we do not act there's no advancement

 

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A devotee politician, if he is not pure, could conceivably cause more harm than good.

•••and this is very true, but remember the function of the spiritual master and remember also that the morality and advancement necessary to do the ordinary political jobs is not so esoteric, If a good and moral man or woman, who is already an honest deputee, a mayor, a senator, a militar accepts the guide af a vaishnava there's the hope that he will increase his morality very easily. Ok it would be very nice to be already all pure devotees and start cook, make puja, sing bhajans, write books, be farmers, sweepers, employees, managers, politicians and so on... but it is not possible and the activities are necessary to make spiritual advancement

 

acting is necessary for spiritual advancement, so we have to do our job given by the natural laws if we are advanced, not advanced, neophites etc.

 

But again, I qualify this statement by saying that yes, we should still preach to everyone, including politicians, and hope that they become pure devotees, and hope that if they are not yet pure, that they will seek counsel from those who are. I would absolutely love to see pure Vaishnavas engaged effect positive changes via politics. I am not opposed to this happening

••••yes,, we completely agree, i know it , i only wanted to give my opinion

 

Hence, my position is that we preach, but at the same time, keep a cool head and depend upon Krsna, no matter how unfavorable external circumstances seem to be.

•••agree, i want only to remember that "depend upon krsna" has to be interpreted in the "arjuna's way".. to devote our karma (given by krsna) to krishna.. all the "old" mistakes and maybe all the future ones depend from not to execute our natural duties.

 

If we start to implement this basic principle of the varnashrama dharma, as arjuna learns by krsna in bhagavad gita, we will be happy and the world will be happy very soon, and the politicians, policemen, presidents, ministers will come with us seeing that their activity will be the key to quit the bondage of the material world, not that, as in many religions, the priests have a "bonus" or there's a strong artificial discrimination between to pray and to act

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Priitaa 0]

Babru,

 

I'm back. Sorry, but I forgot this point.

 

The VedaBase is not complete. It does not have everything in it Prabhupada ever said. I know this for a variety of reasons. One being I have the 'old' VedaBase or folio and things I know happened or were said, are not to be found in there, even tho when that first came out it was advertised to be complete. For example, the story about Brahmananda and the cigarette. That is not in my folio, but its in my husbands newer one. About a year ago he bought the newest VedaBase, and they send him things from time to time that they left out of even the newest one. So they are regularly updating it. They wouldn't have to do this if everything were in there to start with. I have also heard that Pratyatosh has on his site many quotes that never made it into the VedaBase, including those about Prabhupada's statement that his books would be the law books for the next 10,000 years. And where would we be without them? No books = no spreading of Krishna consciousness. Even reversing much of what we have because ignorance, plus delusion would take over without his books of light about Krishna.

[stonehearted 0]

That's not news. My point is not that he didn't say it, but that there's no way to know whether he said it or not. There's so much made-up "Prabhupada said" BS. He addressed this several times himself. One I personally saw was an initiation letterr to Sadhanananda das, who showed me the letter. In the letter Srila Prabhupada wrote that there is so much nonsense going around that "Prabhupada has said." He said this is simply cheating. He further wrote, "If it is not in my books, I did not say it." (This letter is not in VedaBase.)

 

My point is that building a religion around apocryphal "quotations" is risky, if not cheating.

 

Here's another thing I heard. In 1970, Goursundar and Govinda dasi told me that, while walking with Srila Prabhupada at the LA SRF gardens, one of the devotees mentioned that then, several years after Yogananda's death, new members were being initiated as Yogananda's disciples. Srila Prabhupada immediately said, "This is bogus! One requires to take initiation from a living spiritual master." Govinda dasi says she doesn't remember this, and Goursundar isn't available. Some folks have told me to use this against the ritviks, but I won't because it can't be verified.

 

Moreover, I've had a couple of private conversations with Srila Prabhupada, one of which was rather lengthy. He made at least one very remarkable comment in that meeting that's not in VedaBase and never will be. But I know what he said.

 

However, just as Bush & company were wrong to claim that the fact that no WMDs have been found in Iraq is proof of their existence, it's wrong to claim that, because something is not in VedaBase is proof that Srila Prabhupada said it.

[Priitaa 0]

Well Babru, I see I have hit on a pet peeve of yours. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Priitaa 0]

 

My point is that building a religion around apocryphal "quotations" is risky, if not cheating.

 

 

Are you accusing me of doing this?

[Guest guest]

wow there nelly,calm down,even i can see he's not

accusing you of anything,he's just making a

good point to keep in mind,for all of us,

remember this is a public forum.

 

I agree with his words,especially if the source of

a "Prabhupada said" quote is from people who were

politically motivated in almost everything they said,

like Ramesvara.

 

It would be just like Him to make up something to

promote Himself as better then others ,and or to

inspire the devotees under him to work harder

to get more books out, i was there and i was very

conscious of His attitude in winning the competition

for BMOC(big man on campus),as I am sure anyone else

who was there can remember, the atmosphere of constant

competition with Jayatirtha to be celebrated

as the Guru with the most books distributed and most

laxmi collected,He was obsessed and I would not

put it past Him to make up anything.

 

Not that Prabhupada never said such a thing,just that

if our only source is Ramesvara,then it is a very

dubious thing.

[Guest guest]

that was me, i think.

[Priitaa 0]

Relax Siva, ha, I'm not upset. Just asking. Ya dont know if ya dont ask. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gHari 0]

I will believe the "Prabhupada said" that you heard directly from your spiritual master. What was it? It is not true for a magnaninous heart to be miserly in such affairs. Increase the fame of the Audarya by revealing it here to our fortunate group.

 

Please.

 

[stonehearted 0]

No, I'm not accusing you of anything.

[stonehearted 0]

The context was that Tarun Kanti, my wife, and I went to see Srila Prabhupada after Goursundar and Siddhasvarupananda had left ISKCON. He apparently cleared his calendar for the morning and gave it to talking with us. He excused everyone except Sudama and asked them to close the door behind them. His first order of business was to make sure we were okay. First he spent some time with Satyaki and me, then he talked to Tarun Kanti. When he asked Tarun where he was staying, Tarun replied that he was staying with his family. Srila Prabhupada said it was natural for a man to stay with his wife and children. Tarun explained that he meant with his parents. Srila Prabhupada's eyes opened wide, and he asked, "Oh? what are you eating?" He was completely satisfied when Tarun said that he did all his own cooking and that he offered all his food.

 

Then he asked what Tarun was doing for a living. Tarun said that he had a private pilot's license and was studying for an instructor's rating so he could make a living as a flight instructor (this was 1973). Srila Prabhupada was unfazed. He said, "Devotees and devotional serrvice cannot be stereotyped. There is nothing that cannot be engaged in Krishna's service. the only thing is that we require guidance from the expert spiritual master how to engage everything in Krishna's service. That is the only trick."

[yasodanandana 0]

the more i hear of prabhupada and more i i think that his divine grace is perfect, the istruction to tarun kanti includes all the krsna consciousness inside it ..

 

many thanks

[theist 1]

ISKCON had entered some political races in the Southern USA. I am not sure if they were running to win or for the wonderful press and speaking oppurtunities it presented.

 

Anybody know the facts of that effort?

[Priitaa 0]

Thanks Babru.

 

And what a good point, that "devotees and devotional serrvice cannot be stereotyped. There is nothing that cannot be engaged in Krishna's service. the only thing is that we require guidance from the expert spiritual master how to engage everything in Krishna's service. That is the only trick."

 

If any of my preaching here has sounded contradictory, it was not my intent. If anything, I often preach that God is blue and plays a flute. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I simply wish that whatever service we choose to do, we do it with the correct understanding of Prabhupada's philosophy.

 

We've all had our experiences, and that was yours. Mine has been to spend a lot of time in California, maybe too much time, ha, and in the association of many devotees who worked hard to modify and alter Prabhupada's highest teachings, downright changing signficant points, so they would not have to admit they could not meet up to his standards. Now, I have no problem associating with someone who owns up to a fallen position. Matter of fact, I would much rather associate with someone like that then some (not all) temple devotees who, for example, are behaving fanatical in the public eye, but in private can't make it for Mongala Aroti without their cup of coffee, then they turn around and criticize another for eating chocolate.

 

With that said, what has moreso been my experiences were devotees who didn't want to follow the 4 regs, and next find some angle around them, as if Prabhuapda didn't really consider them important. Nor did it end there. It also traversed into his teachings, drastically. There were women's and mens clubs who preached bougus nonsense from new age therapy books merging it with Gita for example, and had a large numbers of devotees following them! Not to get too into it here, but I posted some details about this in the Health Forum.

 

Anyway, we may all have somewhat different understandings of Prabhupada's teachings or are drawn to focus on different points as well as ways to serve. I have no problem with that. Its when we change them or turn them around to justify our anarthas as if they were not anarthas at all, but good spiriutal qualities - this I have a problem with. I feel many of the difficulties of our movement did not only manifest as a result of the authroties pulling 'power trips' (for lack of a better term), but our own unwillingness to get involved in keeping the movement pure. Well, now you know my pet peeve. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Priitaa 0]

Thiest,

 

I dont know the results of that, but I vaguely remember something about a devotee, I think this was in Florida (?) or Georgia (?) who ran for a government position. We were all supporting him of course, but he lost. We still viewed it as a victory. Does anyone remember this?

[theist 1]

Prabhupada was still here bodily and aware of this activity. He stood shoulder to shoulder with the other canidates in televised debates and spoke straight vedic truth. He was not shy about his devotee connections.

 

An important part of history that may be slipping away. I hope someone who remembers steps up.

[Guest guest]

He was President of the Atlanta Georgia Temple I think. He ran for some position during the 70's, not sure if it was Mayor or House of Representatives. Sorry, no details, but at least it's a starting point. Last I heard, he was in Tennessee somewhere, perhaps on a farm community. There may have been a devotee from Florida as well. Amarenda das was from the Gainesville area, a Temple President I believe, who later moved to California and became an attorney. Not sure if he actually ran for public office, but if anyone would know, he would.

 

Bhakta Dan

[Guest guest]

I found this page which may be of interest. I see at least 3 letters from Srila Prabhupada to Balavanta dasa regarding politics. Apparently Balavanta prabhu ran for Mayor, then later on, House of Reps. Also, there is a letter to Amarendra of Gainsesville during that time frame, who was also interested in politics. So, apparently, at least there are documented letters from Srila Prabhupada which will help preserve these pastimes for posterity.

 

Wasn't Balavanta involved in the "poison" issue a few years back?

 

Anyway, here's the link: http://preaching.krishna.org/Articles/2000/10/00172.html

[stonehearted 0]

Pritha, I know what you mean about devotees looking for a way around the regulative principles. A younger devotee who married a woman who still likes fish (ick!) asked me recently whether there wasn't some wiggle room on that. I replied that Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati made it really clear what we were promising when we accepted initiation: no meat, fish, or eggs. There was never any ambiguity there. His wife, however, has never made such a commitment. So, rather than pretend it's okay for devotees to eat fish, it's better to admit that she's not yet able to make that commitment and move from where she is.

[Priitaa 0]

Thanks for that story. Interesting.

 

I can't even imagine an attraction to fish. Tho I suppose some like it. When I was a child my mother was the one to prepared this. It wasn't until I went off to college that I decided to give it a shot. Actually, I thought I was on my way to becoming a vegetarian, and technically I was. It was a step up. Anyhow I bought a real fish (ugh!) and scaled one for the first time. I thought that everyone else does this, so why can't I do it? Now I know why. I was meant to be a vegetarian. After it was cooked, both myself and friends found scales in it. That was the last time I ever did that.

 

Anyone attratcted to fish should buy the real thing & not canned, cut out those eyes that keep looking at you, and try to pay attention to subtle sensations how yucky the whole process feels. Of course in the case of the young man's wife, if she is 'use' to doing this it may take some sensitization, but it can be done. Not until she's ready. (She ought to check out Loma Linda.) But also in her case, it sounds like she is on her way up, unlike some who are on their way down.

 

Yes, it's always better to admit when we have a weakness, rather than to try to change the process. This is indeed, my pet peeve! Give me the fallen devotee who admits their problems any day, as opposed to the fanatic who says they do not have such problems. They are problably hiding bigger ones then the person with the courage to own their anarthas. These are often the people who suddenly blow up, or leave, or abuse, and one day we hear about their actions and say, "I would have never suspected it, as s/he was such a 'fixed up' devotee." They often were not fixed up, but had issues they were hiding, sometimes from themselves too. And while I'm on my role here lol, allow me to clairfy I am not saying there is no such entity as a fixed up devotee or that I would not prefer their association, simply that I have seen so few in this age of kali. Most turned out to be pretenders, even within. Honesty is one of the best ways out of that to achieve the goal of genuinely being 'fixed up.'