Christ in the Vedas

[sister_in_christ 0]

The Greatness of God's Son

 

Hebrews 1:4-14

 

The Son was made greater than the angels, just as the name that God gave him is greater than theirs. For God never said to any of his angels,

"You are my Son;

today I have become your Father."

Nor did God say about any angel,

"I will be his Father,

and he will be my Son"

But when God was about to send his first-born Son into the world he said.

"All God's angels must worship him."

But about the angels God said,

"God makes his angels winds,

and his servants flames of fire,"

About the Son, however God said:

"Your kingsom, O God, will last for ever and ever!

You rule over your people with justice.

You love what is right and hate what is wrong.

That is why God, your God has chosen you

and has given you the joy of an

honour far greater

than he gave to your companions."

He also said,

"You, Lord, in the beginning created

the earth,

and with your hands you made the heavens.

They will disappear, but you will

remain;

they will all wear out like clothes.

You will fold them up like a coat,

and they will be changed liked clothes.

But you are always the same,

and your life never ends,"

God never said to any of his angels:

"Sit here on my right

until I put your enemies

as a footstool under your feet."

What are the angles then? They are spirits who serve God and are sent by him to help those who are to receive salvation.

 

1 John 3:15-16

 

If anyone declares that Jesus is the Son of God, he lives in union with God and God lives in union with him.

 

1 John 3:5

 

Who can defeat the world? Only the person who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

[Guest guest]

We do not recognize false beliefs as expounded by christians.

[Govindaram 1]

Jesus is the son of God.

 

Haribol!

[theist 1]

Jesus is the Son of God.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist 1]

I aslo do not recognize false beliefs as expounded by Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus etc. or atheist scientists for that matter.

[Guest guest]

{Excerpts from Sri Caitanya-shikshamrita, chapter one. First published in 1886, by Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur}

 

Differences in Spiritual Teachers:

 

Thus people in some places give respect to the rsis, in other places they respect preachers like Muhammad, etc. In other countries they respect Jesus and other religious souls, and in many other places of the world people give respect to other various wise men.

 

It is imperative that the people of each country give proper respect to their native saints. Although one may believe that the teachings of a saintly person of one's own country are superior to the teachings of the saints of all other countries, still one should not try to establish and preach such controversy in other countries. No good will come to the world from such preaching.

 

Differences in Procedures of Worship Which Arise from Differences in Thoughts and Feelings:

 

Concerning different expressions of reverence, in some places the worshipper sits on an asana, and after performing nyasa and pranayama he begins his worship. Somewhere else, those persons who wear a mukta-kaccha [a lungi, a type of cloth that Muslims generally wear] perform their worship by standing and facing their holy place then falling down and prostrating themselves five times a day.

 

Elsewhere, others kneel down, fold their hands together and expressing their own humility they sing praises of the Lord in their house or place of worship. According to different places, many varieties of considerations are seen in regards to what is pure and impure in dress, food, behavior, etc. during the time of worship.

 

If one examines different religions, one will see various procedures of worship. One will also observe different conceptions concerning the object of worship. Some people, overcome with devotion in their hearts, establish the shri-murti, the form of the Lord, in their hearts and also in the external world. Understanding that the form so established is non-different from the Lord within, they worship that form.

 

Differences in the Forms of Worship Which Arise From Differences in Conceptions and Conventional Actions:

 

In some religions, because of greater emphasis on logic, the worshipper simply forms a conception of God in the mind and worships it. They do not accept the external form of God. In reality, however, all their conceptions are forms of the Lord.

 

Differences in Designation of the Lord Due to Differences in Language:

 

According to language differences, different religions call God by different names. The religions have different names. The languages used during worship are also different.

 

Non-Criticism and Non-Envy of the Practices of Worship of Other Religions:

 

Because of these five differences it is only natural that various religions will appear quite different. However, it is improper and detrimental to argue over these differences. If one goes to visit someone else's place of worship, while there one should think, "These people are worshipping my Lord, but in a different way.

 

Because of my different practices I cannot quite enter into this system of worship. However, through this experience I can deepen my appreciation for my own system of worship. The Lord is only one, not two. I offer respect to the form I see here and pray to the Lord in this new form that He increase my love for the form that I am accustomed to."

 

Criticism or Envy are Fit to be Abandoned:

 

Those who do not follow this procedure but instead criticize other systems of worship and show hatred, violence, and envy, are worthless and foolish. In proportion to their lack of interest in the Lord to that degree they have affection for use arguments.

 

full article

[Priitaa 0]

I think what bothers me is that we always show respect to Jesus Christ, shaktyaveshavatara, while most (not all but in general, most) Xtians show much disrespect and sometimes blasphemy to Krishna. We are quick, when we see a post against Jesus, to rush in and stick up for him, and I am no exception. But too many Xtians are quick to say horrible things about Lord Krishna, so I often wonder if there is a better way of dealing with this. Mostly tho, I am tired of the double standard where they get who they believe in honored, and we get who we believe in attacked.

[Priitaa 0]

 

I aslo do not recognize false beliefs as expounded by Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus etc. or atheist scientists for that matter.

 

 

Good point Thiest! I agree with you there.

[Guest guest]

I agee with you wholeheartedly. Christions too openly show disrespect to Hindu Gods, culture, rituals without the slightest feeling for the Hindu followers. Why so? Why are people so narrow-minded? Just because they run down Hinduism, Hindus are not going to get converted to their religions!

[bhaktamark1 0]

How do you know, have you seen Him directly?

Remember there is a controversy among Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples regarding what was said about Jesus. Some say Srila Prabhupada recognized Jesus as Visnu Tattva.

 

Then of course, we know Lord Baladeva is the Second Person of the Godhead.

 

ys

[theist 1]

There is no controversy at all. None, at least as to what Prabhupada said a thousand times on the subject. There does appear to be some controversy in the general Hare Krsna movement from the sectarianists who keep insisting its Hinduism.

 

As far as talking to CHRISTians about Krsna, why do that when you know they won't understand. Doing so only inspires them to make offenses, which since we know that we also must share some blame. Not to mention we fall down by continually hearing it.

 

I like to challenge them on the animal slaughter issue. I try to share what I have learned about how we are spiritsoul and not the body etc. Until they learn that nothing philosophical is going to make any sense to them. I mean without understanding reincarnation how can one have a developed philosophy?

 

God's personal

 

We are not the body

 

Stop killing animals

 

Praise the name of Christ and go to him.

 

For me its best to stick to this and keep it rather short in most cases.

 

 

Jaya Yoshua Jaya Krsna

 

 

[livingentity 0]

said that Jesus was jiva tattva; not Visnu Tattva. Prabhupada said that Jesus was empowdered by God and is saktyavesa avatara. I will find the quote for you.

[Priitaa 0]

 

How do you know, have you seen Him directly?

Remember there is a controversy among Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples regarding what was said about Jesus. Some say Srila Prabhupada recognized Jesus as Visnu Tattva.

 

Then of course, we know Lord Baladeva is the Second Person of the Godhead.

 

ys

 

 

There was never any controversy. Don't know where you are getting all that from. Repeatedly he uses the word "shaktyaveshavatara " in relationship to Christ. Over and over and over and over. If this is hard for you to accept, please own that, but there was never any controversy. If so, then show it to me and I will change my mind. I need to see a conversation or quote about said controversy regarding Christ's position as shaktyaveshavatara.

 

And whoever is telling you Srila Prabhupada recognized Jesus as Vishnu-tattva had better supply a quote on that too, cuz he has never said such a thing. I would need proof, and I dont think there is any. Just some 'devotees' speculation, not Prabhupada's facts.

[Priitaa 0]

 

As far as talking to CHRISTians about Krsna, why do that when you know they won't understand. Doing so only inspires them to make offenses, which since we know that we also must share some blame. Not to mention we fall down by continually hearing it.

 

 

Thiest,

 

Not sure if that was to me or the other poster, but from my point of view, I dont go after those who wont understand or would make offenses. I was referring to those Christians who come here to our message boards: we agree with them that Jesus is pure or whatever, then they turn around and slander Lord Krishna. I am kind of fried with that, and also think in a way, maybe we are egging them on unintentionally of course, but talking to the fundamentalist xtians on these boards appears to make them think they are making some progress converting us, until they find out otherwise and make offenses. Just an opinion, which can change.

[livingentity 0]

"Yes, Lord Jesus was jiva-tattva. He is not Visnu tattva. When a jiva-tattva becomes specifically empowered by the Lord, he is called saktyavesa avatara. Lord Buddha and Lord Jesus Christ were in this group of saktyavesa avatara.. But they were not in conditioned state when they appeared; they came to teach here." His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Los Angeles 14 November, 1968

 

[livingentity 0]

The only controversy comes from people not studying Prabhupada's writings. I found so many references to what Prabhupada said on this that I can not believe that anyone would think otherwise.

[theist 1]

 

 

 

Not sure if that was to me or the other poster, but from my point of view, I dont go after those who wont understand or would make offenses. I was referring to those Christians who come here to our message boards: we agree with them that Jesus is pure or whatever, then they turn around and slander Lord Krishna. I am kind of fried with that, and also think in a way, maybe we are egging them on unintentionally of course, but talking to the fundamentalist xtians on these boards appears to make them think they are making some progress converting us, until they find out otherwise and make offenses. Just an opinion, which can change.

 

 

Haribol Priitaa,

 

No I was just speaking in general. Yeah we have to be very careful. They usually aren't even listening when we respond. We think we can change them and they think they can change us. I'm fried also. I am also fried with the hindu fundementalist who offend Christ in some sort of perverted retaliation. At that point their is nothing but creeper killing going on.

 

Philosophical discussions and disagreements should stand but when someone starts in with the aparadha they just just be banned.

 

I think its a tightrope walk for the moderators. If they are too quick to ban someone from posting we complain. If too slow we complain.

 

I think we just have to be personally very careful on what we read. That is hard though with all the nameless guests.

 

Hare Krsna

 

I do regret losing Myra. Maybe she will come back around for a converstaion.

[Priitaa 0]

"No I was just speaking in general. Yeah we have to be very careful. They usually aren't even listening when we respond. We think we can change them and they think they can change us."

 

Yes, we are both thinking we can change the other. ha

 

"I'm fried also."

 

Thanks for saying that. Thought I was the only one who noticed what they do to us here.

 

"I am also fried with the hindu fundementalist"

 

LOL lol Sorry, that made me laught. But I realize it is a serious comment. Actually, thats why it made me laugh. Cuz its acceptable to point this out about other religions, but not something so close to home. So, that needs to get cleared.

 

"who offend Christ in some sort of perverted retaliation."

 

What they dont get, or some don't want to get, is that what is currently being preached as modern Christianity is not what Christ preached, so they need to separate Christ from their feelings of Christians. They are deviating. Even one movie, I forget the name, it said something like: "If Christ did return, he'd go to the Hare Krishna temple." LOL Even they 'get it' that Christ preached something different than modern day Christianity.

 

"At that point their is nothing but creeper killing going on."

 

Exactly.

 

"Philosophical discussions and disagreements should stand but when someone starts in with the aparadha they just just be banned.

 

I think its a tightrope walk for the moderators. If they are too quick to ban someone from posting we complain. If too slow we complain."

 

haha Well, I think the minute they make the slightest indication of an offense to Prabhupada or Krishna (incarnations, etc), they should go. But I do realize what you are saying.

 

"I think we just have to be personally very careful on what we read. That is hard though with all the nameless guests."

 

Yes. It did not previously bother me when there were nameless guests cuz they were devotees. But now they are those of other religions who want to insult and hide. Also now, even some devotees are doing like that. I wish there was more control over these nameless guests who dont have the courage to sign who they are to their words.

 

"Hare Krsna

 

I do regret losing Myra. Maybe she will come back around for a converstaion."

 

I didn't really know her, but I suspect she left because she disagreed with our religion was wanted to be respectful too.

[Priitaa 0]

 

The only controversy comes from people not studying Prabhupada's writings.

 

 

You took the words right out of my mouth L.E.! So true.

[livingentity 0]

misinformation can be quickly cleared up. You don't have to have the foliodisk and you don't even have to have all of Prabhupada's books, lectures etc. Everything is on the web and right at our fingertips - all of Prabhupada's books are on the web (I am not talking about the opinion sites). I am very tired of people who do not bother to read or research Prabhupada's writings but yet come in here telling us what is right, wrong or otherwise.

 

The list grows ever smaller of posters that I will allow myself to read - avoiding Vaisnava aparadha grows increasingly difficult.

 

Diffences in opinion are normal. Debates can be healthy learning tools and great for honing the preaching skills but the things that are going on here lately step over the line into gross offenses.

 

Are we party to their offenses by trying to discuss with them? Are we helping them to create Vaisnava aparadha by trying to convince them? I mean look at their reponses.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

The Alabama judge who installed the ten commandments monument in the court house was asked in an interview if he would allow for the Hare Krishna's to errect an altar to their God next to the ten commandments monument where they would offer incense everyday and sing and dance in front of it. He replied, "No way, they weren't here when this country was founded so they shouldn't have the same rights as us."

 

Also in a court room statement he was asked what he thought of other religions such as Hinduism, to which he replied that he didn't consider Hinduism a religion.

 

[Priitaa 0]

 

The Alabama judge who installed the ten commandments monument in the court house was asked in an interview if he would allow for the Hare Krishna's to errect an altar to their God next to the ten commandments monument where they would offer incense everyday and sing and dance in front of it. He replied, "No way, they weren't here when this country was founded so they shouldn't have the same rights as us."

 

Also in a court room statement he was asked what he thought of other religions such as Hinduism, to which he replied that he didn't consider Hinduism a religion.

 

 

Well, there ya go. Exactly what I suspected. He said it was all about making his decisions based on God, and others feeling supported to do the same. But its all about making decisions based on "his" understanding of God which is only Christian, and no other religion is respected.

 

As far as us not 'being here' when this country was founded, he should read those laws more closely and without bias, because actually this country was not founded on Christianity but on religous freedom. So I don't know that the original forefathers fathers would agree with him. They may not like our religion, yet it appears they honored all religion of choice. The wording they went out of their way to make sure to use was very open minded and included any religious belief, not just Christianity. I suspect its the result of all the prejudice they experienced.

 

Anyhow thanks for this. I had not known he made such comments.

[Priitaa 0]

 

(So much) misinformation can be quickly cleared up. You don't have to have the foliodisk and you don't even have to have all of Prabhupada's books, lectures etc. Everything is on the web and right at our fingertips - all of Prabhupada's books are on the web (I am not talking about the opinion sites). I am very tired of people who do not bother to read or research Prabhupada's writings but yet come in here telling us what is right, wrong or otherwise.

 

The list grows ever smaller of posters that I will allow myself to read - avoiding Vaisnava aparadha grows increasingly difficult.

 

Diffences in opinion are normal. Debates can be healthy learning tools and great for honing the preaching skills but the things that are going on here lately step over the line into gross offenses.

 

Are we party to their offenses by trying to discuss with them? Are we helping them to create Vaisnava aparadha by trying to convince them? I mean look at their reponses.

 

 

L.E. I couldn't agree with you more! Matter of fact, I agree with all you have said so much, that rather than say anything, I have simply made sure to quote you. Every bit of it is so true.

[Guest guest]

 

The Alabama judge who installed the ten commandments monument in the court house was asked in an interview if he would allow for the Hare Krishna's to errect an altar to their God next to the ten commandments monument where they would offer incense everyday and sing and dance in front of it. He replied, "No way, they weren't here when this country was founded so they shouldn't have the same rights as us."

 

Also in a court room statement he was asked what he thought of other religions such as Hinduism, to which he replied that he didn't consider Hinduism a religion.

 

 

 

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? I think that someone like a Naarada should come along and egg this Alabama judge on, the way Naarada stimulated Kamsa to perform even more heinous acts and thus reveal his evil so that Krishna would more quickly come and finish him off.

 

If someone did that to this Alabama judge, everyone would see what a miscreant he is and he would quickly be finished off by the democratic process. Just think of it:

 

Newspaper reporter (Vishnu bhakta in disguise): But your honor, if Hare Krishna people weren't in this country when we were, and you say they shouldn't have the same rights, shouldn't we try to take away some of their rights instead of just talking about it?

 

Alabama judge (deeply into maya since he just finished eating some hamburger): Yeah, come to think of it, you're right! Let's get the police to go arrest those racals!

 

(devotees suffer from judge's acts of persection, causing them to remember Krishna more and thus go back to Godhead. Then ACLU and other Civil Liberty societies see what's going on, condemn the judge, and eventually popular opinion turns against him and he gets voted out of office, and then dies a lonely and condemned man)

 

 

I learn so much about politics from the Bhagavatam. :-)

[bhaktamark1 0]

So answer .. have you seen Jesus directly?