vani or vapuh- which? both?

[Guest guest]

CC 2.22.45

 

kona bhagye karo samsara kSayonmukha haye

sadhu sange tabe krishne rati upajaya

 

When a bhakta obtains faith in the association with soft hearted and affectionate rasika vaisnavas, who are throughly versed in all the conclusions of the scriptures and who are of the same disposition of the heart (svajatiya)

he very quickly obtains prema bhakti

and his material entanglement is easily disipated.

 

the fool

of Her Majesty

[gHari 0]

From A.C. Bhaktivedanta Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya 22.45:<blockquote><center><font color=red>kona bhAgye kAro saMsAra kSayonmukha haya

sAdhu-saGge tabe kRSNe rati upajaya

</center>

kona bhAgye--by fortune; kAro--of someone; saMsAra--conditioned life; kSaya-unmukha--on the point of destruction; haya--is; sAdhu-saGge--by association with devotees; tabe--then; kRSNe--to Lord KRSNa; rati--attraction; upajaya--awakens.

</font>

"By good fortune one becomes eligible to cross the ocean of nescience, and when one's term of material existence decreases, one may get an opportunity to associate with pure devotees. By such association, one's attraction to KRSNa is awakened.

 

PURPORT

SrIla Bhaktivinoda ThAkura explains this point. Is this bhAgya (fortune) the result of an accident or something else? In the scriptures, devotional service and pious activity are considered fortunate. Pious activities can be divided into three categories: pious activities that awaken one's dormant KRSNa consciousness are called bhakty-unmukhI sukRti, pious activities that bestow material opulence are called bhogonmukhI sukRti, and pious activities that enable the living entity to merge into the existence of the Supreme are called mokSonmukhI sukRti. These last two awards of pious activity are not actually fortunate. Pious activities are fortunate when they help one become KRSNa conscious. The good fortune of bhakty-unmukhI is attainable only when one comes in contact with a devotee. By associating with a devotee willingly or unwillingly, one advances in devotional service, and thus one's dormant KRSNa consciousness is awakened.

</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

guru-devatatma

 

SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA:

What is the meaning and purport of the sloka I spoke about in this morning's class?

 

bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad

isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih

tan-mayayato budha abhajet tam

bhaktyaikayesam guru-devatatma

 

Fear arises when a living entity misidentifies himself as the material body

because of absorption in the external, illusory energy of the Lord.

When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord,

he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord.

This bewildering, fearful condition is manifested by the potency for illusion, called maya. Therefore, an intelligent person should engage unflinchingly in the unalloyed devotional service of the Lord,

under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master,

whom he should accept as his worshipable deity and as his very life and soul. (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.37).]

 

PUNDARIKA DASA:

Srila Gurudeva has ordered me to speak on the verse he discussed this morning.

The cause of the living entities material conditioning, and its resultant fear,

has been pointed out in this verse. That cause is forgetfulness of Krsna arising from aversion to Him. That fear creates a second natur" or dvitiyabhinivesa.

Abhinivesa means material absorption, or absorption in something that is not really there. Gurudeva was explaining this morning about maya – accepting something that is actually different from what it appears to be. Our actual nature is simply to serve Sri Krsna, who is our origin. A spark of fire belongs to the fire s flames and it wants to unite with that.

 

Similarly, the thirst in the heart of every living entity to enjoy and be happy can only be satisfied by serving Sri Krsna. Forgetting that eternal nature and being covered by the subtle and gross body, the living entity thinks himself to be different from what he actually is.

Due to various designations and self-conceptions, one's happiness or distress depends on the results of his karmic activities. According to the body with which one identifies, a person sometimes becomes happy and sometimes distressed by that body and its surroundings and circumstances.

Since this cycle goes on and on, what is the way out?

The way out is to come in touch with pure sadhus who are like the current of the causeless mercy of the Supreme Lord, which He has manifested here in this material world as sadhus and sastra.

Coming in touch with the sadhus, who are non-different from sastra, is very rare.

Moreover, even if one is fortunate and able to come in contact with a sadhu,

it is equally difficult to surrender unto that personality

and to imbibe his innermost moods and the inspiration

that he wants to manifest in our hearts.

 

This sloka is pointing out that this is the only way out of fear.

It says that one must unconditionally imbibe that mood of surrender towards the sad-guru,

try to observe his activities, and thereby learn from him externally and internally

how to serve sri gurudeva, the sadhus, and Sri Krsna's bona fide disciplic succession.

The word gurudeva refers to diksa and siksa-guru from whom we are trying to benefit ourselves through spiritual knowledge.

If we are able to feel natural attraction towards that personality, feeling that inspiration coming from him in our heart, then our heart will run towards that person very naturally and spontaneously.

We will feel that our heart has become one with his.

We will not feel any blockage or impediment in the flow of love and trust towards him,

which will in turn bring all that which is contained in his heart.

It will bring all the knowledge required,

as well as complete sambandha-jnana (realization of our relationship with Radha and Krsna). It will also further direct us towards the accurate and exact process,

with constant inspiration, determination, and tolerence.

That will bring us to the goal of life which is to serve Sri Krsna wherever we are and in whatever condition we are situated.

 

 

The copy man

[theist 1]

Many good references on the importance of sadhu sanga. The question was on how to find and recognize such a person.

[Guruvani 0]

Prabhupada said several times in his books that by associating with the devotees of ISKCON people would get this kind of sadhu sanga. Some people today like to discount all of Prabhupada's disciples as sadhu and claim that only a couple of old Gaudiya Math sannyasis are sadhu. This is clearly a huge offense to the many disciples of Prabhuapda who have given their lives to Prabhupada and the movement. ISKCON is sadhu sanga and there is no need to go searching around India for some old school Gaudiya Math sannyasi in the name of sadhu sanga.

[theist 1]

But don't check your intelligence at the temple door along with your shoes. Blanket acceptance of hearing from just anyone from any institution because of the stature of the founding acarya is a prescription for disaster.

 

The same thing applies to rejecting the association of so-called "old Gaudiya math sannyasis." Very dangerous to have such a view in my view. Especially odd to hear from someone who claims BR Sridhar as his siksa guru.

 

OK I apologize. After rereading your post I now see the word "only" which changes the meaning completely. please excuse me.

[Guruvani 0]

True, but not all "old school" Gaudiya Math sannyasis have the same position on issues. Sridhar Maharaja supported Prabhupada 100% while some others opposed him. We have to know the difference between these two different attitudes.

 

In support of Srila Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja introduced rtvik doctrine into his own Math. Others, like Narayana Maharaja violently opposed the rtvik doctrine with strong words. It is "not all one" brotha!

[gHari 0]

To decry Srila Govinda Maharaja, Tripurari Swami and Srila Narayana Maharaja and God knows who else because they reveal the folly of the ritvik clan, while applauding ISKCON sadhus who also think ritvik is nonsense, seems just irrational.

 

In my opinion, if someone is lame enough not to be able to see what Srila Prabhupada was saying to the GBC that day about future initiations, then they cannot possibly have anything to offer anyone about Krsna consciousness. If they can't understand Prabhupada on such a simple topic which he explained so clearly, how are they to understand his words on esoteric topics? There is no debate; ritvik is only for fools, and maybe that is a good thing.

[Guest guest]

treating gaudya math as a big, united, monolitic, obsolete enemy of IskCon is part of your style.. not other's

[Guest guest]

 

Many good references on the importance of sadhu sanga. The question was on how to find and recognize such a person.

 

 

You already know the answers, you will get what you deserve.

 

According to one&#8217;s sukriti, that association will take place in a higher or lesser degree, or in no degree.

bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta

sangena parijayate

SAT-SANGA prapyate pumbhih

SUKRITI purva sancite

 

The inclination for bhakti is awakened

by the association with the bhagavad bhakta of the Lord

And the association with those pure devotees

(SAT SANGA) can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable many life times.

(Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)

 

A madyam devotee can somehow recognize the sat guru.

If you are not on that platform, what can you do? you have to have some faith in those devotees who say, I know a sat guru, come have some association. Maybe that they are sincere, and have attained that sadhaka plat platform.

 

From another forum:

 

Question:

And the four levels of sound, where is it from ?

 

Answer:

The four levels of sound is a concept from the Upanishads, which is mentioned a few times in Srimad Bhagavatam verses as well. Visvanatha Chakravarthi focuses on the topic in part of his commentary on the eleventh canto. For more information on this topic here is an article:

 

The Vedic Conception of Sound in Four Features

http://www.indiadivine.com/tattva17.htm<BR< a> />

 

The way to bhakti is the way of shabdha brahma (transcendental sound).

The sound has four levels

- the outer portion (vaikarik)- that we hear it, and comes in the tape recorder

- the level of mind

- the level of intelligence

- the transcendental level -shabda brahma (that can be uttered by the realized soul and imbibe the audiance with seva vasana (the seed of the desire to serve the DIVINE COUPLE- if the one that utters the sound is a RUPA-ANUGA.)

 

So only the pure soul can give that pure sound to the audience.

 

the copy man

[Guruvani 0]

It is nice that big, big Gaudiya Math Swamis have said that Prabhupada's recorded sounds are material sounds that are only the outer covering of the sabdha brahma. Then he has an internet ministry, tape ministry and video ministry. I guess the recorded message is only bogus when it is Prabhupada's, but when it is some Gaudiya Math guru or some babaji the recorded sound is spiritual?

 

Hypocrites and cheaters is all they are! They only want to disrupt ISKCON and convert the masses to their own worship, that is easy to see unless you are blind and deaf!

[Guruvani 0]

If we buy into the theories that only the sound coming from a living pure devotee is transcedental, then why did Prabhupada have a tape ministry? If such sound was empty useless sound vibrations then it would have been cheating on the part of Prabhupada to have a tape ministry.

 

Prabhupada gave gayatri mantra by tape while he was present on Earth. To say that recorded sounds are not sabdha is a way of saying that Prabhupada was a cheater and a fool.

 

 

Krishna can be in any sound vibration he chooses to as it is all part of his energy. Krishna can also not be in the sounds coming from so called living gurus who are no more than cheaters and liars.

 

To say that Krishna is not here or not there is not Krishna conciousness. Krishna is everywhere and he can manifest his potency as he pleases.

[Guruvani 0]

I just read through the article "The Vedic conception of Sound in four Features" and did not find statements by the author like "the outer portion of sound that we hear comes from the tape recorder".

Please show me where the author of the article has made this statement! It does say that even the sound that is audible on the level of speech is vaikhari or the grossest form of sound.

What this article does not explain is that Krishna is independent and absolute and can appear in any sound on any level. Krishna can be in a gross sound just as easily as he can be in the most subtle form of sound. We cannot limit Krishna and say that he cannot be in a gross form of sound. Krishna can appear in the sound of a dog barking if he so wants to. He is all powerful and can do anything he wishes.

 

Krishna appears in the form of gross matter as the deity. He can also appear in the gross form of sound and nothing is dictated by the chanter or the chanted. It all depends on the will of Krishna and there is no force that can stop him from appearing in gross external sound and no force that can make him appear in the subtle form of sound if he so refuses.

[Guest guest]

From another forum:

 

Only a sat guru (the one that have seen Krsna face to face) can give the transcendetal sound.

He is the only one who can give real initiation through the transcendental sound in Hari-nama and diksa (Gopala-mantra, Kama-gayatri-mantra, Gayatri-mantra...)

 

source? please. Relevent sastra and commentry by said sad guru. Thanks

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says:

The way to bhakti is the way of shabdha brahma (transcendental sound).

 

Spoken by SBAM in Vraja Mandala Parikrama 2001:

"adau guru mukhat shravant"

Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explained in the purport of this verse:

"Srimad Bhagavata 3.9.11. (Asse zrutekSita-patho nanu nAtha puMsAm)

 

that

the path to Krsna can be seen through the ears and

that hearing must be done from the mouth of

sat guru.

 

tvaM bhakti-yoga-paribhAvita-hRt-saroja

Asse zrutekSita-patho nanu nAtha puMsAm

yad-yad-dhiyA ta urugAya vibhAvayanti

tat-tad-vapuH praNayase sad-anugrahAya || 3.9.11 ||

 

&#8220;Those who are engaged in your devotional service, on the lotus of their heart You reside.

Through the path of hearing people see You, O Master!

In whichever of Your multiple forms they contemplate on You,

in that very form you manifest to them by your grace.&#8221; "

 

your servant

the copy man

[Guest guest]

 

Bhakti Caru Swami's Bengali translation of the Srimad Bhagavatam had omitted a very key verse from Srila Prabhupada's original version. The omitted verse in question would itself have destroyed the GBC's position that they were duly authorised to be Diksa Gurus in ISKCON. This of course was shocking, since it showed that Srila Prabhupada's books were being 'edited' not to bring them closer to the originals as claimed, but rather doctored to prop up the GBC's bogus Guru philosophy.

 

Though we had also been aware of many other controversial changes made to Srila Prabhupada's books, the BBT had always claimed that they were made to actually correct 'errors' made by Srila Prabhupada's 'hippie' editors. Thus they were not actually changing Srila Prabhupada's books, but Hayagriva's 'incorrect version' of the books, and thereby actually RESTORING the books BACK to how Srila Prabhupada actually wanted them. However, thanks to the diligent efforts of His Grace Dhira Govinda Prabhu, the Chairman of the ISKCON Office of Child Protection, we now have evidence that the current BBT, which is controlled by GBC supporters, are making changes motivated slowly by the desire to doctor Srila Prabhupada's books so that they fit in with whatever happens to be the prevailing view instituted in ISKCON by the GBC.

 

Some time back many devotees had noticed that the new 9 Volume edition of the Caitanya Caritamrta had made a deliberate change from Srila Prabhupada's original version, not unlike the one made by Bhakti Caru Swami mentioned earlier. Srila Prabhupada's Caitanya Caritamrta states the following:

 

"Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who *initiated* Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji"

 

(C:C, Chapter 1)

 

In the new BBT doctored 9-volume edition, the same passage reads:

 

"Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn accepted Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji"

 

In other words it has been decided that contrary to what Srila Prabhupada states, Jagannatha Das Babaji did not really INITIATE Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura after all. Now the reason for the BBT changing Srila Prabhupada's teaching here is very significant since the GBC maintain that the relationship between Jagannatha Das Babaji and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was based not on 'formal initiation' but rather only on the transmission of transcendental knowledge'. Once it is accepted that the transmission of divine transcendental knowledge ALONE constitutes INITIATION - then the objections made by the GBC to the Ritvik system of initiation crumble, since Srila Prabhupada could also *initiate* us with transcendental knowledge.

 

Thus the BBT could not allow Srila Prabhupada to teach that Jagannatha Dasa Babaji actually *initiated* Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, for that would indirectly sanction Srila Prabhupada *initiating* for many generations to come simply via his transcendental knowledge, with the 'formal initiation' administered via the Ritvik system that he set up. In any case the teaching given by Srila Prabhupada above is totally consistent with what Srila Prabhupada has taught about Diksa and initiation in the Caitanya Caritamrta itself:

 

"Diksa actually means *initiating* a disciple *with transcendental knowledge* by which he becomes freed from all material contamination." (Madhya-lila, 4:112, Purport)

 

Of course just the very fact that the BBT is deliberately changing the main legacy left by Srila Prabhupada - his teachings - is horrendous enough.

 

However the fact that it was done specifically to keep the positions of the GBC within the crumbling Guru system intact, is totally shameful.

 

But just when you though it could not get any worse, it does. For the BBT have now become so arrogant in their campaign against Srila Prabhuada's teachings, that they have even tried to JUSTIFY this change. Dravida Das, the BBT editor, upon being asked by Dhira Govinda Prabhu to justify the change, first sums up the reason for NOT changing Srila Prabhupada's teachings as follows:

 

"On the side of not changing the "initiated" phrases we have the strong bias against changing the books unless absolutely necessary and the fact that Srila Prabhupada did indeed say that Jagannatha das Babaji initiated Bhaktivinode."

 

(BBT Editor, Dravida Das)

 

Please note that Dravida clearly ADMITS that Srila Prabhupada "DID indeed say that Jagannatha das Babaji initiated Bhaktivinode".

 

To any sane person, this would be the ONLY reason required to NOT tamper with Srila Prabhupada's teachings in any manner whatsoever. But hold on.

 

Dravida Das has a reason that far outweighs a mere detail such as what Srila Prabhupada himself actually taught. Rather he states we must change Srila Prabhupada's teachings to ensure they conform with what is currently understood within ISKCON in regards to initiation:

 

"Leaving one or both "initiated"s will strongly imply that the use of the phrases "direct disciple" and even "accepted [as his disciple]" indicate formal initiation as we know it in ISKCON, which is far from the truth." (BBT Editor, Dravida Das)

 

Dravida then adds that this reason was paramount in justifying the change:

 

This last was the weightiest argument, in my view, for changing the passage.

 

(BBT Editor, Dravida Das)

 

Thus to summarise, what Dravida is saying is this: That whenever Srila Prabhupada's teachings differ from the way 'we know it in ISKCON', then they must be changed to conform with the way we DO 'know it in ISKCON'. And of course the way 'we know it in ISKCON' is dictated by whatever ridiculous philosophy the GBC happens to be preaching at the time.

 

So the fact that we have had a bogus Guru system imposed on us in ISKCON by the GBC means that even though we may find that Srila Prabhupada teaches something else, we must modify Srila Prabhupada's teachings to agree with the way things are understood in ISKCON. Instead of changing the practices and understanding of ISKCON to conform with Srila Prabhupada's teachings - which of course is what a spiritual society based on following Srila Prabhupada would do. Not only is it bad enough that ISKCON is NOT run according to Srila Prabhupada's teachings, but now Srila Prabhupada's teachings must also be changed to fit in with the way we happen to be doing things in ISKCON.

 

What makes this shocking state of affairs even more ludicrous is that the way things are 'known in ISKCON' are themselves constantly changing anyway.

 

1) Thus from 1978-onwards, in ISKCON we 'knew' one thing in regards to the process of initiation - that you could ONLY take it from 11 people, and then ONLY whichever of the 11 people 'owned' your geographical area.

 

2) Then from 1986 we 'knew' something else about initiation - that you could take it from many others providing they had received the necessary number of votes.

 

3) Now we 'know' something else - that whoever you get initiated from, do not forget that you must not worship him too much and that Srila Prabhupada is also doing some important things, and indeed maybe even more important than the person who does initiate us.

 

4) And what's the betting that this 'understanding' will also change in the next year or so?

 

5) And just because we happen to 'know' at the moment that initiation must mean the 'formal ceremony', therefore any teaching in Srila Prabhupada's books that imply otherwise must be doctored.

 

And this is a very sinister development for yet another reason. For this justification is laying the ground for making ANY further change to Srila Prabhupada's teachings that the GBC deems fit. Thus in the future if it is 'known in ISKCON' that 'women are as intelligent as men' say, then we will be able to alter all of Srila Prabhupada's statements where he says that women are less intelligent, since then it would not conform with the way things are 'known in ISKCON'. Or if in the future we begin to 'know in ISKCON' that Lord Siva is just as worshipable as Krishna say, then whenever we encounter the word 'Demi-God' in Srila Prabhupada's books, then all those instances must be changed. And so on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stonehearted 0]

god: What makes this shocking state of affairs even more ludicrous is that the way things are 'known in ISKCON' are themselves constantly changing anyway.

 

I remember that during the time I lived in California, the GBC man would come back from Mayapur every year and make a presentation at the temple about the GBC's business that year. And every year (no exaggeration) he would make a point about their guru system, something to the effect of, "Well, we pervisouly didn't understand a couple of points and kind of screwed things up, but this year we got it figured out--now we have it right." Then next year, he's say the same thing: "Well, this year we understand--now we have it right." It was a dark joke.

[gHari 0]

This is why I don't trust or respect these ritviks. Those are the words of fools and cheats. I can't even remember the last time I saw an honest statement from any one of them. When we become conditioned to the constant flow of the brilliant truth of Srila Prabhupada's words, it is so sadly apparent when soulless nonsense has appeared before the eyes.

[Guest guest]

this quote of srila gaura govinda maharaja, if written entirely, demonstrates the opposite...

 

.....that we need a present living guru to communicate with srila prabhupada..

 

srila maharaja is challenging the devotee: "... can you speak to prabhupada? can you hear him?" to say that he (the devote) cannot have a relationship with Him (prabupada) if not through a pure master

[Guruvani 0]

I very much appreciated your commentary in the above post.

I would just like to interject that the initiation of Bhaktivinode by Jagannatha das Babaji that Srila Prabhupada alluded to could have been the form of initiation that is not openly discussed, but is only referred to in a subtle almost hidden form. The initiation that I am referring to is raga-marga diksha or initiation into spontaneuous love beyond regulative principles. This form of initiation is nicely disguised and hidden by the bona-fide acharyas. They do not speak of it directly but only in a disguised and hidden way that the casual observer cannot catch up to.

Beyond Hari-nama diksha, beyond Gayatri upaniti, there is the secret and sacred initiation into spontaneuous loving service - Raga-marga diksha.

Therefore when Prabhupada says that Bhaktivinode was initiated by Jagannatha das Babaji he might not have been referring to Hari-nama diksha or gayatri upaniti, rather the secret and sacred Raga-marga diksha that is the path of spontaneuous love.

Srila Prabhupada also initiated his disciples into Raga-marga, though it was done in a hidden and concealed manner that is not understood by the casual observer.

Raga-marga diksha is the most secret and sacred initiation of the Gaudiya line. The babajis know that, yet the modern days babajis like to make it cheap, open and easy. That is not the real tradition of the Gaudiyas. Raga-marga is the most secret of initiations. It is not referred to directly and openly. It is the hidden treasure of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

Let's keep it that way.

 

Krishna is known as Veda-guhya, which means he is hidden within the Vedas. He is there in the Vedas but is hidden and only the pure devotees can find him there.

Raga-marga diksha is something like that. It has been given by Prabhupada to all his disciples but in a secret hidden way. It is not even so secret and hidden. You just have to know what you are looking for and you can see it all over the place in Prabhupada's teachings.

[stonehearted 0]

Ksamabuddhi: Therefore when Prabhupada says that Bhaktivinode was initiated by Jagannatha das Babaji he might not have been referring to Hari-nama diksha or gayatri upaniti, rather the secret and sacred Raga-marga diksha that is the path of spontaneuous love.

 

A thought-provoking point; I wonder whether Dravida and Jayadvaita (and whoever advised them on this point in their editing) considered that.

[Guest guest]

From another forum

Question:

If the path is transcendental

why do you limit it by physical association?

Answer:

any transcendetal thing oh, comes from transcendental source;

like harinama, diksa mantras are transcendental hari katha is transcendental

the sound of srimad bhagavatam is transcendental,

so transcendental things come from transcendental source.

But, everything in THIS world is material! So, where it will come from?

Only when any realized person descended in this world

and is carrying bhakti-shakti with them,

than you can receive what is transcendental.

 

When a pure devotee speaks,

mixed within his voice

are the saffron particle

of the lotus feet of Krsna,

says Srimad Bhagavatam;

so,

sound has 4 dimensions:

vaikarik, madya, para, pashianti .

First dimension is the outer portion of the sound, what you speak, what you hear, and

what is going in your tape recorder.

Next two levels

are on the subtle platform of the mind and intelligence.

The fourth level is called shabda-brahma

and goes from soul to soul ."

 

your servant

the copy man

[Guruvani 0]

If you read that very nice essay about the Vedic explanation of sound you will find that:

"Persons who are learned and who have true knowledge define sound as that which conveys the idea of an object, indicates the presence of a speaker and constitutes the subtle form of ether."

 

The transmitting of an idea or concept is the inner function of sound. Sound is the medium by which an idea or concept is transmitted from one person to another.

In Krishna conciousness, sound is the medium in which the IDEA, CONCEPT of Krishna and love of Krishna is transmitted.

The IDEA or the concept is the subtle message that the sound is meant to convey.

Language and literature is also a very efficiant resource for transmitting the IDEA and CONCEPT of Krishna, serving Krishna and all the details of both.

 

There is no MAGIC BULLET in the sound that comes from the pure devotee apart from the IDEAS, CONCEPTS and INSTRUCTIONS they impart to awaken the dormant love of Krishna that is innate in all souls.

 

This MAGIC BULLET propaganda that hearing directly from some so-called rasika-acharya will imbue one will special power and mercy is not based on the Vedic idea of sound and it's function but is based on the sentimental cheating propensities of self-interested individuals.

 

Sound transmits the idea, the concept and the instructions. What one does with that information determines the effect of that sound and not some so-called MAGIC, MYSTICAL power of the sound itself.

 

We need to remember that Krishna is not a sound. He is a person, a spiritual being with feelings. His Holy Name is not a sound. He is a person - the supreme Person.

Krishna is not a sound vibration. He is pure spirit.

 

[Guest guest]

Actually, there are several places in Vedic literature where hare-nama is expressed over the presence of the Lord Himself.

 

Another point, the energy represents the energetic. Prabhupada could convince us of spiritual truths by his thoughts and words, we can't even agree on what was heard.

 

There is a non-different perspective that Prabhupada is alive and active in his books. That is undoubtedly true. But there is also the very real perspective that his personal association is no longer physically possible (unless he chooses to appear to us).

 

You can serve Krsna, you can read his Gita, but seeing Him is a whole other reality. Why did the gopis morn in separation although they are constantly percieving Him? Why do we want somplace better?

 

The material energy was serving Prabhupada, therefore he appeared very magical to us. His mastery over the most fundamental act of living will not likely be duplicated.

 

Thus, there are sayings like "the light of the world has left".

 

The maha-bhagavatas can impart a special energy or sakti through sound or sight or whatever. Just remember how Prabhupada was always surrounded by individuals "feeding" off his energy. This feeding frenzy has not manifested with his books. There is communication between the author and reader over time and space, but it is limited. It cannot manifest the ramge of personality. To think so is entertaining mayavadi ideas.

 

But you are not a Mayavadi at all. Your closing statements affirm these perspectives, but I find your wording suspect. In the case of Krsna, the mantra may be more important. But then again, the energy cannot ultimately be more important than the energetic. I guess both perspectives are true.

 

But there are many places in our literature where one or more devotees are "awakened" simply by the smell of flowers or some sight or tough, etc. That perspective is also there. But it is a very rare thing.

 

Guess Guest

[Guruvani 0]

I saw so-called senior sannyasis falling asleep during Prabhuapda's classes and they did the same thing to Sridhar Maharaja. So much for the feeding frenzy theory. The feeding frenzy was more about trying to get position in ISKCON by using "personal servant" status than it was about some special electricity during personal contact.

Actually, Prabhupada has warned in the CC that neophytes should see the spiritual master from a distance because if they get too close they might start to see him as an ordinary man.

Many of Prabhupada's intimate disciples have fallen down while others who were less imitimate or not intimate at all have done better than them.

The falldown record of the intimate disciples is no better than that of the distant disciples. I think this proves the MAGIC BULLET theory as bogus.

 

Prabhupada did not support the MAGIC BULLET theory or otherwise he would not have initiated disciples through the rtvik system. Otherwise, we have to accept Prabhupada as a cheater who enticed devotees with his books and then denied them actual contact and the MAGIC BULLET diksha.

[Guest guest]

Vastu, dharma and tadAtma

 

According vedic knowledge a vastu is a truly abiding object.

When an object is formed

by the desire of the Supreme All Attractive

a PARTICULAR NATURE

is built in that structure.

That PARTICULAR NATURE is called the sva-bhava of that vastu.

That PARTICULAR NATURE is the eternal (nitya) nature (dharma) of that vastu.

 

Besides the nitya dharma (eternal nature) there is also a

naimitik dharma (acquired nature) of an object.

 

The naimitik dharma is not the real nature of the object (vastu), but

is acquired by long term association

by force of circumstances

contact with other objects and

takes the appearance of permanence

 

The object (vastu), which has existence by itself can be

- vastav &#8211; eternally existing &#8211; spiritual

- avastav &#8211; temporary existing &#8211; material (which has a semblance of existence- sometimes true, sometimes false.

 

A car, a typewriter, or whatever might be used in one&#8217;s sadhana, are avastava vastu, a temporary material object, whose sva bhava (particular nature) is related to this material world.

Let us say they are like iron. Who is the fire?

 

your servant

the copy man