Should there be only one Acharya?

[Guruvani 0]

In this thread I am not attempting to promote rtvik theory or discuss the concept or it's relevance to ISKCON and the Krishna consciousness movement. What I would like to hear from any senior and scholarly type devotees like maybe Jagat, Madhavananda prabhu etc. is some input on whether or not the parampara traditionally recognized one Acharya, perhaps the most learned and experienced or senior Vaishnava as THE ACHARYA instead of something like we have in ISKCON today where there are supposedly dozens of acharyas/gurus acting simultaneously within the framework of a society of devotees. Junior disciples of Prabhupada are acting as guru in the presence of senior disciples.

It seems to me from what we can see of the tradition is that most often the humble Vaishnavas of the past usually deferred any aspiring disciples to the most senior or otherwise learned and qualified Vaishnava that was present within the society at the time.

Did the great Goswamis of Vrindavan all accept disciples simultaneously, or was one of them respected as the leader whom all the others recognized as THE ACHARYA?

I have to admit my ignorance in this regard. I could probably go to the books and find out something, but for the sake of discussion I am opening up the topic for discussion and would like to hear especially from the scholarly devotees on this issue.

Prabhupada has described the offense of maryada-vyatikrama in his books. It is the offense of overstepping senior Vaishnavas and being impertinent to their advancement.

If we take this principle to the fullest application, it would seem that there would be ONE senior Vaishnava within the society of devotees who would be recognized as THE ACHARYA, as opposed to the system of having so many junior Vaishnavas acting as acharya in the presence of senior, more advanced Vaishnavas.

 

Please help me understand this matter.

sincerely,

Ksamabuddhi das

[Guest guest]

if the previous acharya is in this world. every disciple brings others who want to practice to him.... otherways, if the acharya is gone in nitya lila pastimes, if there are the right features, the disciple became acharya (=who teach with the example, or who teach the behaviour)

 

bhaktisiddhanta is an acharya... when he leaves this world, prabhupada, shridhara maharaja, BPpuri maharaja etc. became new acharyas without making offenses or overstepping bhaktisiddhanta's place

 

your reasoning is based on the assumption that srila prabhupada is acting in this world as he did before his disappearance... but obviously it is not right... now he is in another kind of lila

 

i know some old gaudya math gurus and they are preparing their succession leaving one "so called" acharya leading the organization, but with no limits for the disciples if they'll want to be guru, provided they have the qualities... and these disciples will stay in the organization or open new branches with no limits, no excommunications, no war, no fights etc.

(in india there is not the same fear of difference and variety as we have in the west.... )

 

in the six gosvamis time, the situation was very simple and (happily) complex in the same time... the acharyas were SIX, with some degree of variety and exclusivity in their teachings , but with disciples in a sort of "crossing" mood... taking diksa from one, sended for a particular siksa to another etc.

 

krsna dasa kaviraja goswami offers the obeisances to "his spiritual masters"

 

i think that this idea of the ONLY GURU is due to the scarcity of vaishnavas in kaly yuga... the standard is a guru (guru means siksa + diksa) in every village or more

 

so, for me, a pluralization or an increasing in the number of BONA FIDE initiating gurus (with their different branches) available will be a sign of the success of krsna consciousness...

 

acynthya beda abeda... simultaneously..... one movement and infinite ones... something like a federation .... GBC, gaudya math, league of devotees with sub federations, sub governements, sub commitees, sub sub, etc.

 

[Guest guest]

obviously with the role of prabhupada as jagat guru, shaktiavesha avatara, that is even now in every bona fide branch of gaudya math

[Guest guest]

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya-Lila 7.126-134:<blockquote>

The brAhmaNa begged Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu, "My dear Lord, kindly show me favor and let me go with You. I can no longer tolerate the waves of misery caused by materialistic life."

 

SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu replied, "Don't speak like that again. Better to remain at home and chant the holy name of KRSNa always.

 

"Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord SrI KRSNa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gItA and SrImad-BhAgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land."

 

SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu further advised the brAhmaNa KUrma, "If you follow this instruction, your materialistic life at home will not obstruct your spiritual advancement. Indeed, if you follow these regulative principles, we will again meet here, or, rather, you will never lose My company."

 

At whosever house SrI Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasAdam, He would convert the dwellers to His saGkIrtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brAhmaNa named KUrma.

 

While on His tour, SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu would spend the night at a temple or on the roadside. Whenever He accepted food from a person, He would give him the same advice He gave the brAhmaNa named KUrma. He adopted this process until He returned to JagannAtha PurI from His South Indian tour.

 

Thus I have described the Lord's behavior elaborately in the case of KUrma. In this way, you will know SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu's dealings throughout South India.

</blockquote>

[Guruvani 0]

I am quite familiar with this chapter of CC and I have often wondered if Kurma the brahmin ever received formal initiation. According to this narration, it appears that Mahaprabhu went all over South India giving siksha and there is no mention of his giving formal diksha to any of these people. It is said that Krishna consciousness spread throughout South India better than the rest of India including Bengal.

According to this story, Mahaprabhu did not emphasize formal diksha at all. He simply gave siksha to all he met and told them to go back to their village and teach others about Krishna consciousness. It appears that Krishna consciousness spread all over South India by word of mouth without any so-called big gurus or acharyas other than Mahaprabhu.

[Guest guest]

yes ..... the emphasis of gaudya vaishnava is surely on siksa... but this does not means that siksa guru is not giving personally shelter to the disciple... he is not a substitute or a priest for another, he is guru life after life (janme janme prabhu sei) and he promise to give, if the disciple follows, the direct experience of krsna, not the experience of another guru who will give the vison

 

siksa is not ritvik

ritvik does not fit in any catjegory of guru... if not vartma prakashaka

[Guest guest]

Actually, Sri Caitanya instructed them to become Guru in CC Madhya 7.128<blockquote><center>yAre dekha, tAre kaha ‘kRSNa'-upadeza

AmAra AjJAya guru haJA tAra' ei deza

</center>

yAre--whomever; dekha--you meet; tAre--him; kaha--tell; kRSNa-upadeza--the instruction of the Bhagavad-gItA as it is spoken by the Lord or of SrImad-BhAgavatam, which advises one to worship SrI KRSNa; AmAra AjJAya--under My order; guru haJA--becoming a spiritual master; tAra'--deliver; ei deza--this country.

"Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord SrI KRSNa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gItA and SrImad-BhAgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land."

</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

AmAra AjJAya

 

Under My order. Be guru.

 

This seems as formal an initiation as Lord Brahma received. Isn't it?

[Guruvani 0]

But, this order of Mahaprabhu was to INSTRUCT everyone in Krishna consciousness. He did not formally accept Kurma as a disciple or perform an initiation ceremony. Instructing others is the work of the siksha guru. So, his only order was to become siksha guru, not diksha guru. He never said go "initiate everyone through diksha", he said go INSTRUCT everyone about Krishna.

[Guest guest]

to INSTRUCT .... a thing done by living persons

[Guruvani 0]

So, you proposition is that when the guru dies he is no longer siksha guru? At death he is no longer siksha guru or diksha guru? One has to be alive to be siksha guru?

I don't think many devotees would agree with your idea about that.

So, in other words, you are saying that Prabhupada is no kind of guru at all anymore in the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

 

rtviks were living and they were also authorized siksha gurus as well. that was their qualification for being rtvik...... they were siksha gurus first and foremost!

Only a siksha guru can perform rtvik function on behalf of his spiritual master.

[stonehearted 0]

Ther verse says to become guru by telling whoever they meet Krishna's instructions. Sometimes that may entail initiation, sometimes not. He forbade no one from initiating. Although we have no evidence that Mahaprabhu initated anyone (the traditional lines don't start with Him, by initiation, but with His parishads), many of His devotees, famous and obscure, did. This is a personal relationship. Although it should be guided by sadhu and shastra, it's very dangerous to try to legislate such intimate relationships. And, as in any relationship, there will always be risk on the part of both parties.

[Guest guest]

there is a misconception about the meaning of siksa

 

true and pure (real) siksa is the same guru whe hear in guruvastakam... he has the direct perception of the spiritual world and he can give directly to the disciple even if he thinks that this power comes from the mercy of his spiritual master

 

as you are depicting ritvik, they are not gurus, because they do not take personally the responsibility to bring a devotee to vaikunta.... they give him to a mythical figure resembling vaguely srila prabhupad

 

to meet people, speak something of krsna, and give to another devotee who'd give complete refugee is not siksa neither diksa.... only vartma prakashaka

 

so there's no siksa gurus in ritvik system

[Guest guest]

Siksa is Ritvik you ignorant filosof...

 

mirza

[Guruvani 0]

Krishna is really the only siksha and diksha guru. Whoever becomes the medium for him to give his siksha or diksha is respected as siksha or diksha guru.

In CC. it is said that the prostitute who first inspired Bilvamangal Thakur to seek Krishna was his siksha guru.

If prostitutes can be siksha gurus then I would imagine that a sannyasi/rtvik could also be a siksha guru.

[Guest guest]

As the Hare Krishna movement grew Srila Prabhupada handed over much of the management to a body of devotees he had formed called the Governing Body Commission (GBC). He wanted the GBC to take over management responsibilities to enable him to spend more time on his most important project, writing his translations and purports on the Srimad Bhagavatam and other literatures.

 

Unfortunately there were differences of opinion among GBC members leading to arguments and fights. But more importantly, the GBC often made decisions which were not in line with Srila Prabhupada's guidelines and teachings.

 

Srila Prabhupada concluded that the society was contaminated by a "poisonous effect."

 

 

"Regarding the poisonous effect in our society, it is a fact and I know from where this poison tree has sprung up and how it has affected practically the whole society in a very dangerous form. But it does not matter. Prahlada Maharaja was administered poison and it did not act. I think that in the same parampara system that the poison administered to our society will not act if some of our students are as good as Prahlada Maharaja."(to Hansadutta Sep 2, 1970)

The problems became so bad that at a festival at New Vrndavana in West Virginia in 1970 a number of Srila Prabhupada's sannyasis began preaching Mayavada philosophy to the devotees assembled at the festival.

 

 

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave protection to devotees and killed many demons in the course of His preaching work. He specifically mentioned that the Mayavadi philosophers are the greatest demons. Therefore he warned all others not to hear the Mayavada philosophy. mayavadibhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa: simply by hearing the Mayavada interpretation of the sastras, one is doomed." (CC Adi 17.53)

The sannyasis at New Vrndavana claimed Srila Prabhupada was actually Krishna, that he was displeased with them and had left the movement. It was now up to these sannyasis to lead the movement...

 

 

"I do not know what was resolved at New Vrndavana. But I have heard that Brahmananda is preaching about me, that I am Krishna, that I am Supersoul, that I have withdrawn my mercy from the disciples, that I have left the society, and so on. I do not know how far they are correct, but I have written him a letter that he may not do something which may harm the interest of the society. You are also one of the members of the GBC, so you can think over very deeply how to save the situation. It is a fact, however, that a sinister movement is within our society. I have not heard anything from Krishna dasa and Syamasundara, so all of you may try to save the society from this dangerous position." (to Hansadutta 2 Sep, 1970)

"The ambitious Mayavadi philosophers desire to merge into the existence of the Lord, and this may be accepted as sayujya-mukti. However this form of mukti means denying ones individual existence. In other words it is a kind of spiritual suicide. This is absolutely opposed to the philosophy of bhakti-yoga. Bhakti- yoga offers immortality to the individual conditioned soul. If one follows the Mayavadi philosophy, he misses his opportunity to become immortal after giving up the material body. The immortality of the individual person is the highest perfection stage a living entity can attain." (CC Mad 6.169)

 

The Hare Krishna movement had become a large organization and things were not always going on according to the standards and regulations established by Srila Prabhupada. The GBC's failing to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions was an indication of very serious problems at all levels of the society. Devotees in ISKCON had lost their enthusiasm to preach and things were becoming very degraded.

 

 

"I am a little observing now, especially in your country, that our men are loosing their enthusiasm for spreading our program of Krishna consciousness movement. Otherwise why so many letters of problems are coming, dissatisfied? That is not a very good sign. The whole problem is they're not following the regulative principles, that I can detect. Without this enthusiasm will be lacking. Even mechanically following, and if he gets gradually understanding from the class, he will come to the point of spontaneous enthusiasm. This spontaneous loving devotional service is not so easy matter, but if one simply sticks to the rules and regulations, like rising early, chanting 16 rounds, chanting gayatri, keeping always clean - this enthusiasm will grow more and more, and if there's also patience and determination, one day he will come to the platform of spontaneous devotion, then his life will be perfect. All this I have told you in "Nectar of Devotion". So I do not think that the leaders are themselves following, nor they are seeing the others are following strictly. This must be rectified at once. Each centre remain independent, that's all right, but the president and other officers must themselves follow and see the others are following the regulative principles carefully, and give them good instruction so they may understand nicely why this tapasya is necessary. And GBC and sannyasis will travel and see the officers are doing this, and if they observe any lowering of the standard, then they must reform and advise, or if there is some discrepancy I shall remove it." (to Karandhar 22 Dec 1972)

Even the basic requirements such as following the four regulative principles (no illicit sex life, no intoxication, no gambling and no meat eating) and the chanting of at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra daily were being neglected by many devotees. And this was not only the case for new devotees. Many of the leaders, Srila Prabhupada's "right hand men", the GBC and temple presidents were not following.

 

 

"Our spiritual way should strictly observe the following points especially:

 

Neatness and cleanliness of all personal body. (I still see those who are initiated as Brahmins, they do not wash their hands after eating even; of course, there may be so many defects due to your birth in non-Brahmin families, but how long shall it go on? It is a very easy thing.)

Chanting 16 rounds daily. (I don't thing everybody's following these principles.)

Temple worship, which should be performed rigidly between 4 and 10 a.m.) I find that devotees are still sleeping up to 6 or 7 o'clock.

So on the GBC agenda I do not find any such program for reforming our past bad habits. So kindly, as president of Hamburg centre you try to observe yourself all the regulative principles and see all the members are following. Recently I have received from one sannyasi complaint about another sannyasi who is not chanting regularly. So it is our view that we shall be strictly following the rules and regulations." (to Hansadutta 11 Mar, 1972)

 

A new type of devotee had surfaced within ISKCON. The pseudo- devote. These pseudo-devotees feigned attraction to Krishna and Srila Prabhupada and pretended to be following the process of devotional service, however, they were not working for Srila Prabhupada and Krishna. They had their own personal goals for fame, wealth, followers and sex life.

 

 

"There are many pretenders who refuse to work in Krishna consciousness but make a show of meditation, while actually dwelling within the mind upon sense enjoyment. Such pretenders may also speak on dry philosophy in order to bluff sophisticated followers, but according to this verse these are the greatest cheaters. For sense enjoyment one can act in any capacity of the social order, but if one follows the rules and regulations of his particular status, he can make gradual progress in purifying his existence. But he who makes a show of being a yogi, while actually searching for the objects of sense gratification, must be called the greatest cheater, even though he sometimes speaks of philosophy. His knowledge has no value because the effects of such a sinful man's knowledge are taken away by the illusory energy of the Lord. Such a pretenders mind is always impure, and therefore his show of yogic meditation has no value whatsoever." (Bhagavad- gita As It Is 3.6 purport)

Because the pretenders did not seriously take to the process of Krishna consciousness, they were not purified of mundane desires and could therefore never taste the ecstasy and spiritual bliss experienced by sincere devotees. Instead they became envious of the sincere devotees, envious of Srila Prabhupada and envious of Krishna. These so-called devotees actually worked against Srila Prabhupada and his attempts to spread Krishna consciousness from within the movement. This was one of the symptoms of the Mayavada contamination which had been administered to ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada always stressed that success in spiritual life depends on pleasing Krishna, and Krishna is pleased if His representative, the spiritual master is pleased. Unfortunately these pseudo-devotees had other ideas...

 

 

"One should have unflinching faith in Krishna and similarly in the spiritual master. That is the way of understanding the secret of Krishna consciousness. Unfortunately, an attempt has been made lately to shake this formulae. This mischievous attempt has done great harm, but if you, the members of the GBC can rectify this mischievous attempt, then there is still hope of making our progress uninterruptedly. I hope Krishna will help us...The GBC's duty is therefore to see that every member is following the rules and regulations and chanting 16 rounds regularly on their beads. I hope that the GBC in cooperation with the sannyasis in their touring program will be able to keep vigilance systematically in order to keep the society as pure as possible." (to Bali Mardan Aug 25, 1970)

The Mayavadis and impersonalists have a different view of the spiritual master. They see acceptance of the spiritual master as a step in the process of ultimately becoming one with God, or actually becoming God. Their philosophy is that everyone is God, however, in the material world we are covered by maya (illusion), and have therefore forgotten our natural godly position. They use the spiritual master as a stepping-stone. They take some instruction and then think they can kick the spiritual master out of the way and take his place.

 

 

"The Mayavadi philosophers are engaged in their missionary work of spoiling the Vedic culture by preaching that everyone is God... Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu never accepted such foolish and unauthorized ideas. He strictly warned mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa: 'Anyone who follows the principles of Mayavada philosophy is certainly domed.' Such a fool needs to be reformed by punishment." (CC Adi 12.35)

When the Mayavadi makes a little advancement by serving his spiritual master, he becomes puffed-up and wants to take the place of his spiritual master. Instead of remaining an eternal servant, he wants to be the master.

 

These Mayavadi ideas had surfaced in ISKCON and many "big" leaders were contaminated by this philosophy. The Mayavada philosophy is very subtle and extremely difficult for neophyte devotees to detect. This is because the Mayavadis, don't directly reject the Vedic scriptures. Lord Caitanya said the Mayavadis are even more dangerous than the Buddhists, because the Buddhists reject the Vedic scriptures and it is clear to everyone they are definitely not devotees of Krishna. The Mayavadis, however claim to be devotees of Krishna, they read and speak on the Bhagavad-gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam, they chant the Hare Krishna mantra, and they claim to be great Vaisnavas.

 

Although externally the Mayavadis may appear to be great Vaisnavas (devotees of Krishna), actually, in their heart they don't believe that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nor do they accept Krishna's pure devotees as being non-different from Krishna. For them there is no concept of God being personal. Ultimately they think everything is Brahman (spirit) and that they are also Brahman. So they conclude they are at least equal to God. (Everything is Brahman, I am Brahman, God is Brahman, so I am God!) This attitude often leads to a devotee who may be following the regulative principles of devotional service, chanting Hare Krishna, reading profusely, and even performing quite severe austerities in devotional service. Because of these activities he may be regarded as an advanced devotee by other devotees. But, the underlying philosophy motivating his activities is wrong. He is not working for his spiritual master and Krishna, He doesn't necessarily even believe in Krishna or have any faith in his spiritual master. His motivation is completely selfish. He is thinking that if I study all these books, if I get up early in the morning, if I chant and dance enthusiastically in the association of the other devotees, they will think I'm a very advanced devotee. Then I can become the temple president and I will be in control of all the devotees in the temple. I'll be able to get them to do anything I want....because the temple president is the representative of Krishna...he's non-different from Krishna....he should be worshiped like Krishna...... then why stop at temple president? I can become the GBC, then all of the devotees in the country will worship me. Why stop there? I can be Jagat Guru (Guru of the whole universe), then everybody will worship me! So in this way the Mayavadi increases and increases his desires for fame, adoration, profit and distinction to the maximum possible degree. Ultimately he desires to become the supreme controller, Krishna. Eventually he believes he has become Krishna and perhaps he can attract a band of like-minded "disciples" who worship him as god. To a sane man this sounds ridiculous. How could people be so foolish to worship an ordinary mundane man, full of ordinary mundane faults as God? But people are amazingly stupid. At the time of writing this the newspapers are full of stories about some crazy man in Texas who claimed to be Jesus Christ. He locked himself up with 100 or so "disciples" and set fire to the place. His "disciples" voluntarily burned to death in the fire. Srila Prabhupada repeatedly emphasized that this world is a place of the cheaters and the cheated. This "Jesus Christ" was a cheater and his "disciples" were cheated. This same scenario is repeated over and over again here in the material world. It is not so long ago that Bhagavan Sri Rajniesh was attracting hundreds and thousands of "disciples" to his bogus free-sex religion. The problem is that people want to be cheated. They want to be told they can retain all their sinful activities and material desires and at the same time justify it by some bogus "spiritual" path. The Christians have been doing it for a long time now, "No one is perfect, you can't be perfect, Jesus died for your sins, Jesus forgives, just keep on partying and come to church on Sundays! Jesus forgives!" A very nice philosophy?

 

It would be unrealistic to think that the Hare Krishna movement has been free from this type of contamination. There were many pseudo-devotees who were not at all interested in Krishna consciousness or Srila Prabhupada. They were simply interested in exploiting the Hare Krishna movement and the devotees for their own ends. So they developed a new philosophy by utilizing the Mayavada technique of word juggelery and redefination and they managed to turn Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON into a mundane business organization. An organization of the cheaters and the cheated. Although they were outwardly preaching Krishna consciousness, and some were even great scholars with the ability to speak on Krishna consciousness very convincingly, much of it was false. Many were after followers, fame, profit, distinction, etc. So although, in many cases, even though their preaching was completely in accordance with Srila Prabhupada's teachings and books, because their desires were material, not spiritual, the effect of their preaching and Srila Prabhupada's preaching was totally different.

 

When Srila Prabhupada preached all spiritual results were there. Even though English was a foreign language and his accent was difficult to understand for many Westerners, because his desire was pure his preaching was magnificently successful. Srila Prabhupada's achievements are inconceivable from the material point of view. His was so successful because Krishna was helping him all along.

 

The pseudo-devotes, however, didn't get any help from Krishna. they were able, for a short time, to make a false show of Krishna consciousness, but they could only attract sentimentalists and other envious persons like themselves. So gradually the Hare Krishna Movement degenerated into a mundane organization. It became like hell for serious devotees. As a result many devotees were forced to leave as they could no longer practice Krishna consciousness peacefully in ISKCON.

 

Gradually the mood within ISKCON changed from a group of dedicated servants of Krishna and Srila Prabhupada enthusiastically and actively trying to please Srila Prabhupada by distributing his books and preaching strongly to a group of envious materialists engaged in mundane business and money making trying to exploit each other and the public for their own personal sense gratification. They had totally neglected the preaching work. The transition was subtle and even imperceptible to devotees within the movement. As time went on they just forgot what Krishna consciousness used to be like. They forgot the ecstasy, the joy, the enthusiasm, the challenge... it was all a blur in the past. Somehow they thought that this thing they were doing now was Krishna consciousness. They really couldn't perceive any change. Isn't maya wonderful!

 

What was left was a band of envious men all trying to take some position of power and control and a bunch of sentimental devotees, who mostly believed in Krishna and had faith in Srila Prabhupada, but were not very philosophically inclined nor very intelligent. These sentimental devotees were easily diverted from the real path of Krishna consciousness by the envious pseudo-devotees. They didn't have the ability to tell the difference between Krishna and maya.

 

 

"Raksasa means almost man-eater. For their self satisfaction they can eat even their own sons. They're called raksasas. No sense. My sense gratification should be satisfied, never mind, you go to hell. This is the age. We create a machine that everyone comes and becomes smashed in that machine and my sense satisfaction is there. Although I'll never be happy by such sense satisfaction. This is going on. You can know that this world is now managed by the raksasas. They don't mind what is happening. They're prepared to sacrifice everything for fulfilling their whimsical nonsense. They're called raksasas. They are very much enamoured by this material civilization. They cannot understand and they will never try to understand because they are raksasas." (SPL66-036)

As more and more pseudo-devotees captured positions of power in ISKCON things rapidly deteriorated. It came to the point that temples would even directly reject Srila Prabhupada's orders in his presence. This was particularly the case with engaging the devotees in business activities instead of book distribution and preaching. Srila Prabhupada didn't want it, and he said so many, many times. But the pseudo-devotees wanted it and didn't care in the slightest what Srila Prabhupada wanted.

 

Apparently the "leaders" in ISKCON preferred to engage the devotees in mundane business activities instead of the preaching work because there was more money to be made in business than preaching, and the society needed money to preach. But there was another reason. Envy. The difficulty was that the "leaders" were becoming rapidly separated from Krishna consciousness. Their consciousness was absorbed in other things, however, the book distributors and new devotees joining the movement were in ecstasy in Krishna consciousness. They were in spiritual ecstasy because they were following Srila Prabhupada's instructions, following the regulative principles, chanting at least 16 rounds daily and distributing Srila Prabhupada's books. They were so happy, their faces were so bright and their feet hardly touched the ground. This was unbearable to the morbid, materialistic and contaminated pseudo-devotees who were after fame, profit, followers,... They couldn't bear it. So this new business program was developed. Take these ecstatic book distributors off book distribution. Get them to grow hair and wear ordinary Western clothes and send them out selling mundane paraphernalia instead of Srila Prabhupada's books. It was a very successful program and it quickly transformed ecstatic book distributors into morbid materialists. The materialists like to see others suffering... the last thing they want to see is ecstatic book distributors.

 

 

"Suppose you are selling Back To Godhead. Does it not remind you of Krishna? Does it not remind you about Krishna? What are you selling Back To Godhead for? You could sell another popular magazine which would sell very nicely, quickly, thousands of copies. Why are you taking this Back To Godhead? For Krishna. You are not for business. You are not an ordinary newspaper seller. Why are you taking Back To Godhead? Your motive is that people may know about Krishna. That is your motive. If magazine selling is your business then you can take any other sense gratifying magazine. There are so many and you can sell, you can make some profit. So we have to mould our life in such a way that we shall always remember Krishna. Therefore remembering Krishna is my primary business and we have to act in such a way that we may not forget Krishna. That should be the principle. That is the secret."

[Guest guest]

Organized Religion

 

BY SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASWATI THAKURA

 

— Sri Krsna manifest His eternal birth the pure

cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located

above all mundane limitations, King Kamsa is the

typical aggressive empiricist, ever on the lookout for

the appearance of the truth for the purpose of

suppressing Him before He has time to develop. This is

no exaggeration of the real connotation of the

consistent empiric position. The materialist has a

natural repugnance for the transcendent. He is

disposed to link that faith in the incomprehensible is

the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy in the guise of

religion. He is also equally under the delusion that

there is no real dividing line between the material

and the spiritual, he is strengthened in his delusion

by the interpretation of scriptures by persons who are

like-minded with himself. This includes all the

lexicographic interpreters.

 

The lexicographical interpretation is upheld by Kamsa

as the real scientific explanation of the scriptures,

and is perfectly in keeping with his dread of and

aversion for the transcendental. These lexicographical

interpreters are employed by Kamsa in putting down the

first suspected appearance of any genuine faith in the

transcendental. King Kamsa knows very well that if the

faith in the transcendental is once allowed to grow it

is sure to upset all his empiric prospects.

 

There is historical ground for such misgivings.

Accordingly if the empiric domination is to be

preserved in tact it would be necessary not to lose a

moment to put down the transcendental heresy the

instant it threatens to make its appearance in

earnest. King Kamsa, acting on this traditional fear

is never slow to take the scientific precaution of

deputing empiric teachers of the scriptures, backed by

the resources of dictionary and grammar and all

empiric subtleties to put down, by the show of

specious arguments based on hypothetical principles,

the true interpretation of the eternal religion

revealed by the scriptures.

 

Kamsa is strongly persuaded that faith in the

transcendental can be effectively put down by

empiricism if prompt and decisive measures are adopted

at the very outset. He attributes the failure of

atheism in the past to the neglect of the adoption of

such measures before the theistic fallacy has had time

to spread among the fanatical masses.

 

But Kamsa is found to count without his host. When

Krsna is born He is found to be able to upset all

sinister designs against those who are apprised by

Himself of His advent.

 

The apparently causeless faith displayed by persons

irrespective of age, sex and condition may confound

all rabid empiricist who are on principle adverse to

the Absolute Truth Whose appearance is utterly

incompatible with the domination of empiricism.

 

But no adverse efforts of the empiricists, whose rule

seems till then to be perfectly well- established over

the minds of the deluded souls of this world can

dissuade any person from exclusively in following the

Truth when He actually manifests His birth in the pure

cognitive essence of the soul.

 

Putana is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he

or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once

into the hands of the pseudo-teachers of religion.

These teachers are successful in forestalling the

attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never

sought by the atheists of this world at the baptisms

of their babies. This is ensured by the arrangements

of all established churches of the world. They have

been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for

effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from

the moment of their birth with the cooperation of

their worldly parents. No human contrivance can

prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of the

pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of

atheistic disposition in the people of this world.

 

The church that has the best chance of survival in

this damned world is that of atheism under the

convenient guise of theism. The churches have always

proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest form

of worldliness from which even the worst of non-

ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil.

 

It is not from any deliberate opposition to the

ordained clergy that these observations are made. The

original purpose of the established churches of the

world may not always be objectionable. But no stable

religious arrangement for instructing the masses has

yet been successful. The Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu, in pursuance of the teachings of the

scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for

the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not

follow that the mechanical adoption of the

unconventional life by any person will make him a fit

teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for

controlling the inherent worldliness of conditional

souls.

 

But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for

such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is

neither any product of nor the favourer of, any

mechanical system.

 

In his hands no system has likewise, the chance of

degenerating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere

pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot

hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or

liturgy.

 

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible

form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual

movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are

the dikes and the dams to retain the current that

cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed,

indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit

a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also

unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and

unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual

teacher. The people of this world understand

preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the

unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there

be any earthy contrivance for the permanent

preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane

on the popular scale.

 

Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are

disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the

worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly

success of any really spiritual movement. It is these

worldly expectants who become the patrons of the

mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion,

the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the

theistic disposition at the very moment of its

suspected appearance. But the real theistic

disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of

those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the

atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which

they perform for the benefit of their unwilling

victims.

 

But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its

appearance in the pure cognitive essence, of the

awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at

the very earliest stage of their encounter with

new-born Krsna. The would-be slayer is herself slain.

This is the reward of the negative services that the

Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by

strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against

their own hypocrisy.

 

But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward

in only form which involves the total destruction of

her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like

to lose the services of the most trusted of his

agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of

pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear

indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the

mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute,

heralds the Advent of Krsna by his uncompromising

campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.

 

 

[Guest guest]

***Putana is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he

or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once

into the hands of the pseudo-teachers of religion.

 

Yes. Wery well.

 

[Guest guest]

***Organized Religion

 

SBST himself give organized religion. In sastra speak - it is possible 2 way.

[Guruvani 0]

The original idea for a society of devotees that live together for the purpose of cultivating Krishna conciousness comes from Srila Rupa Goswami. Srila Prabhupada starts The Nectar of Instruction by saying:

"The Krishna consciousness movement is conducted under the supervision of Srila Rüpa Gosvämé".

 

ISKCON was Srila Prabhupada's attempt to make that ideal of Srila Rupa Goswami a reality for devotees all over the world. Beginning with Srila Rupa Goswami there was seen a necessity for devotees to have their own society, their own sub-culture as a microcosm within the ordinary civil society.

Srila Prabhupada was very adament that it was not possible to cultivate Krishna consciousness properly outside of the society of devotees. I believe that it was in the Krishna Book that he said that anyone who thinks they can be Krishna conscious living outside the Krishna consciousness movement is living in a great hallucination.

 

ISKCON is not about "society consciousness" or "rules and regulations" consciousness that has become a popular term used in the devaluing and belittleing of ISKCON. ISKCON is about Prabhupada's answer to Srila Rupa Goswami's call for devotees to combine and unite in a society for the purpose of cultivating and propogating Krishna consciousness.

 

A unified and cohesive society of devotees is the command and call of Srila Rupa Goswami. It is not some neophyte's "society consciousness" that can be attacked and villifed as external and superfluous. The minimizing of the importance of keeping Prabhupada's mission alive and flourishing is very unfortunate and offensive.

 

The success of ISKCON is the success of all the devotess and the failure of ISKCON is the failure to succeed in Prabhupada's mission to establish the devotee society that was the vision of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Failure is not an option!

Splintering and factioning is not an option!

Allowing Prabhupada's antogonists to disrupt and impede his mission is not an option!

Minimizing the importance of ISKCON is not an option!

 

For the disciples of Srila Prabhuapda the only option is to somehow or other unite and work together cooperatively. Sure, ISKCON has become a topheavy bureaucracy with too many by-laws and bureaucrats. That needs to be rectified and ISKCON needs a more fluid and flexible administrative approach.

 

However, the work to build and promote the international society of devotees that Srila Prabhupada established has to be continued, has to be completed and has to be accomplished.

 

If not under the banner of Prabhupada and ISKCON, then what hope is there for establishing this international society of devotees to provide sanctuary and haven for all the suffering devotees in the world?

 

Is Prabhupada's ISKCON going to be pushed by the wayside and rejected for a splintered and scattered alliance with those who have no allegiance or affiliation with ISKCON?

 

Is a catastrophic desertion of Prabhupada for the company of anti-ISKCON Gaudiya Math type sadhus who oppose Prabhupada's innovations the real solution?

 

Prabhupada deserves the right of leading and unifying the international society of devotees. The dispersal and disintegration of ISKCON for a broken, belligerant, antagonisitic variety of sects and cults is not what Prabhuapda envisioned as the fullfillment of Rupa Goswami's vision of an international society of devotees. It is not the fullfillment of Rupa Goswami's vision. It is maya's attempt at impeding the fullfillment of the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

ISKCON was supposed to be about Dhaiva Varnashram - a society and culture of devotees working in a practical way to meet the needs of human society. The act of interfering with the fulfillment of that mission and creating a broken, disjointed, scattered smattering of devotees living within the ranks and confines of ordinary society has nothing to do with the fullfillment of Srila Rupa Goswamis vision for the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Prabhupada wanted to provide a haven, a Shangri-La for devotees. He did not wander about the Earth initiating anyone that walked up to just leave them abandoned and isolated without support, association. temples and service.

He was not a cheater like those people. Prabhupada organized a movement, a society, a sub-culture for devotees to have the tools and facilities to make Krishna consciousness a practical lifestyle instead of a hopeless, impractical and indeed IMPOSSIBLE ideal.

 

If not Prabhuapda, if not ISKCON, then who, what, when and how will there ever be the international society of devotees working together for a common goal?

 

The view that devotees can just be initiated all over the world and then left without any support structure, without any temple and without a Varnashram social structure, is a very feeble and foolish effort that cheats devotees for the sake of someone's personal ambitions.

 

ISKCON is not about society consciousness. It is about fullfilling the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. Disrupting and interfering with ISKCON is nothing less than disrupting and interfering with the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Rejecting ISKCON to chase after some so-called rasika-acharya who has no vision or committment to fullfill this mission of Srila Prabhuapda to provide a working model of Vaishnava society as a sub-culture and counterculture to ordinary society is not helping the mission of Srila Prabhuapda. It is rather obstructing and opposing the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Everybody likes to talk about "love of Krishna" and "rejecting society consciousness for Krishna consciousness", but without the success of ISKCON there will be no "love of Krishna" if all the devotees are imbedded and integrated into ordinary mundane society and surrounded by bad association and not having any meaningful work in the Varnashram culture of a Krishna conscious sub-culture.

 

Talk about society consciousness? Here's your society consciousness - living seperate from ISKCON within the rank and file of ordinary society and claiming to be a lover of Krishna while rejecting the only movement that has the potential to build a practical working model of Varnashram culture that can save us from the Hells we call cities that we are so attached to!

 

Indeed, as Prabhuapda has said in the Krishna Book,

"Anyone who thinks they can be Krishna conscious outside this movement is living in a great hallucination".

 

Lover of Krishna? Or, lover of Maya in the name of rasika acharya?

 

[Guest guest]

hello Mr Osama Bin Laden.. nice to meet you!

[stonehearted 0]

Feel free to disagree with Ksamabuddhi. Lord knows I have several times in the short time he's been here. Argue the points he makes as well as you can, using logic and reason based in the instructions of our acharyas, or your acharyas. Point out inconsistencies, if you like, as has gHari. Crticise the tone of his postings, if it bothers you. But don't stoop to anonymous name-calling. There are a few here who think it's cute, but most of us don't appreciate it, and it doesn't advance real discourse at all.

[livingentity 0]

this is offensive and uncalled for. I do not even see where this is relevant to the discourse here.

 

You (nameless guest) are so brave behind your anonymous guise. Chances are these "guests" would never have the nerve to act like this face to face. But become oh so "intelligent" (snide) hiding behind the safety of their keyboard.

 

I need to learn to stick by my resolve to not read these guest posts at all.

[Guest guest]

the problem is that Ksamabuddhi puts in his message many vaishnava aparadhas, criticizing with "nonchalance"(i.e. without sufficient explanation) many cathegories of devotees.

 

I think that this name (osama b.l.) is quite merciful considering the quality and quantity of his offences

 

if you are so disturbed by me.... you'd have to commit suicide hearing what ksamabuddy is saying!!!!

 

as i have said i am already registered and many times i log and answer with my name........ but having said too much about me, i had ksamabuddy ever answering putting me in a "cathegory" and offending my spiritual master and so on: "you are saying like that because you are a disciple of .... , cheater, usurpating prabhupada's place etc..

 

(very much like "you think like that because you are an hebrew or a black or a woman ...)

 

 

 

so i like to speak about krsna, i like this forum very much, but if there's the possibility i want to remain sometimes anonimous

 

of course, if you are disturbed, i accept to have some limits... but i hope you are aware of how proud and offensive is this boy pointing his weapons in all directions in the name of his very personal idea of srila prabhupada

 

please kindly give me an answer.....

[livingentity 0]

you should sign in when you post such accusations. It is cowardly to come in as guest to do such hit and runs.

 

If you truly felt you were correct - you would stand up for yourself under your usual handle.

 

Quit whining.