beyond the smoke and mirrors

[Guruvani 0]

When Prabhupada is no longer present in ISKCON, then it is proper to initiate disciples of our own. Who is it that feels that Prabhupada is no longer present in ISKCON?

 

So, the day Prabhupada is no longer present in ISKCON is the day that ISKCON is no longer ISKCON. The day that Prabhupada is no longer present in ISKCON is the day ISKCON dies.

[Guest guest]

if we are not in a spiritual plaform, we cannot be in direct contact (questions and answers) with a person who is no more acting in our material world... even if we, studying scriptures, know and say that he is not surely dead..

 

if you are situated in the same trascendental plane as srila prabhupad and you can talk directly with him you do not need another teacher (even if you should have it to teach to others the right behaviour)

 

i do not see prabhupada, my experience of his life in my world now is only for me theoretical, i cannot understand if my mind is allied with maya or paramatma.

 

so my real connection with srila prabhupada is zero, it is surely my fault.... i need a pure link to Him.. a living, pure, bonafide, spiritual master

 

otherwise all my realizations can be imaginations

 

 

 

[gHari 0]

Srila Prabhupada spoke of the self-effulgent acarya who would appear to take over Gaudiya Math after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami left. Did that mean that Srila Prabhupada thought that his master would no longer be present in the Gaudiya Math after that?

 

Therefore that answer is not satisfactory.

[Guruvani 0]

Bhaktisiddhanta did not appoint rtviks as Srila Prabhupada did, nor did he personaly pick and appoint a GBC.

He advised his disciples to form a GBC and go on with the preaching and the acharya would be self-effulgent because he would would continue to make many Vaishnavas.

 

A comparison with the Gaudiya Math is not relevant as there were no rtviks appointed by Saraswati Goswami.

[gHari 0]

So you are thinking that after the self-effulgent acarya appears, then Srila Bhaktisiddhanta will no longer be in the Gaudiya Matha? According to your reasoning this must be true since no one can be guru while the acarya is present.

 

From letter dated April 1974:<blockquote>[...] In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But [a God-brother] is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. [...]</blockquote>

[Guruvani 0]

Actually, Bhaktisiddhanta did reveal who his successor would be. He said "After I am gone, Sridhar Maharaja will be my mouthpiece".

He also said "I am satisfied that after I am gone there will be at least one disciple, Sridhar Maharaja, left behind to represent my conclusions".

However, his statements were ignored by many of the other disciples who went to court to fight over the properties.

They did not feel that Sridhar Maharaja was to be the successor so they came up with their own candidate, which of course turned out to be a disaster.

 

The truth is, of all the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta, Sridhar Maharaja won the highest praise and honor of Saraswati Goswami and that should have been a clear indication as to who should have been the successor acharya to Gaudiya Math, though Sridhar Maharaja was too timid to accept such a position without extreme persuasion anyway.

 

So, for the most part Bhaktisiddhanta appointed Sridhar Maharaja to be his spokesman after his departure. His wishes were neglected by the disciples who had control over the properties, though they never received the endorsement that Sridhar Maharaja received from Saraswati Goswami.

Sridhar Maharaja was not a manager of properties in Gaudiya Math and he did not have control over that. He was however, the most qualified of all the disciples as far as his representing the actual ontological conceptions of Saraswati Goswami.

He was the most qualified according to Saraswati Goswami and he should have been elevated to the post of acharya of Gaudiya Math, but the property controllers would never have agreed to that. They had their own agenda and it was all about becoming acharya themselves.

[Guruvani 0]

 

His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected.

 

 

So, here Prabhupada is expressing the prohibition that the acharya or acharyas should not be nominated by the GBC but SELECTED by the aspiring devotees who wanted to accept one of them as diksha guru.

Prabhupada is clearly preaching against GBC nominated gurus. He is saying that the guru will be decided by the next generation of devotees and who they choose to be their spiritual master!

So, when Prabhupada gave the GBC the authority to expand the rtvik representatives in ISKCON he surely was not giving them authority to nominate gurus.

The logical conclusion here is that he intended the rtvik system to continue post-samadhi otherwise he would not have given the GBC authority to expand the list in the future.

 

The GBC was the authorized agency to represent Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON not only as managing agency but as siksha gurus and rtvik authority as well.

[theist 1]

Selected on the basis of the pure light and intensity of their effulgence. First that must manifest.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Poster: theist

Re: effulgence

 

Selected on the basis of the pure light and intensity of their effulgence. First that must manifest.

 

 

<font color="blue">Actually, the self-effulgence of a devotee is how he radiates service and sacrifice to execute the orders of his spiritual master. He is self-effulgent in his service and ability to represent his spiritual master, not through some light that emanates from him like the impersonal brahmajyoti.</font color>

[gHari 0]

Don't change the subject. Why did Prabhupada even talk about whether or not a successor Acarya had been named if indeed a guru cannot be there with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta present? Prabhupada obviously did not see his master as 'present' in terms of making it impossible for another guru to act as Acarya.

 

That is what we are discussing: Prabhupada's reason for calling the eleven 'ritvik', for one should not be guru in the presence of the master. Seeing Prabhupada's understanding in this letter, we can see that your answer is just not satisfactory. Taking Srila Prabhupada's words straight-forward makes infinitely more sense. And the ritvik interpretation is thereby rendered fit only for cheaters and the dull-minded.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Don't change the subject. Why did Prabhupada even talk about whether or not a successor Acarya had been named if indeed a guru cannot be there with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta present?

 

 

<font color="blue">Where did Prabhupada ever say that the next self-effulgent acharya would become the head of the Gaudiya Math? Maybe the self-effulgent acharya would leave aside all his neophyte Godbrothers and start the mission anew without all those people that had disgusted Bhaktisiddhanta so much that he left this world years early? We can actually see that the most successful self-effulgent acharya did actually that and did not ever become the head of the Gaudiya Math. Actually, none of the greatest disciples of Saraswati Goswami ever become successor to Gaudiya Math. They each and every one went out and started their own missions.</font color>

[gHari 0]

From SB 4.20.7 Purport:<blockquote>The living entities, who are many and who are entangled in this material world, are not pure. However, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is pure and detached. Due to being covered by the material body, the living entities are not self-effulgent, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead, ParamAtmA, is self-effulgent. The living entities, being contaminated by the modes of material nature, are called saguNa, whereas ParamAtmA, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is nirguNa, not being under the influence of the material modes. The living entities, being encaged in material qualities, are guNAzrita, whereas the Supreme Personality of Godhead is guNAzraya.</blockquote>

 

From a Second Chance<blockquote>The ViSNudUtas were so effulgent because they were residents of the spiritual world, where everyone and everything is self-effulgent. As Lord KRSNa says in the Bhagavad-gItA (15.6), na tad bhAsayate sUryo na zazAGko na pAvakaH: "My abode is not illuminated by the sun, the moon, fire, or electricity." The YamadUtas did not know where the ViSNudUtas had come from, but they could see that the ViSNudUtas were not ordinary, since they were so effulgent, they had four arms, and they were extremely beautiful.</blockquote>

 

From SB 11.2.27 Purport:<blockquote>The individual soul, being part and parcel of the Lord, is also self-effulgent. In fact, everything in the kingdom of God is self-effulgent, as described in Bhagavad-gItA (15.6):

<center>

na tad bhAsayate sUryo

na zazaGko na pAvakaH

yad gatvA na nivartante

tad dhAma paramaM mama

</center>

It has already been described in many ways that the nava-yogendras were pure devotees of the Lord. Being completely KRSNa conscious souls, they naturally radiated the intense effulgence of the soul, as indicated here by the word sva-rucA.</blockquote>

 

SB 3.25.18:<blockquote><center>tadA puruSa AtmAnaM

kevalaM prakRteH param

nirantaraM svayaM-jyotir

aNimAnam akhaNDitam

</center>

tadA--then; puruSaH--the individual soul; AtmAnam--himself; kevalam--pure; prakRteH param--transcendental to material existence; nirantaram--nondifferent; svayam-jyotiH--self-effulgent; aNimAnam--infinitesimal; akhaNDitam--not fragmented.

At that time the soul can see himself to be transcendental to material existence and always self-effulgent, never fragmented, although very minute in size.

 

PURPORT

In the state of pure consciousness, or KRSNa consciousness, one can see himself as a minute particle nondifferent from the Supreme Lord. As stated in Bhagavad-gItA, the jIva, or the individual soul, is eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Just as the sun's rays are minute particles of the brilliant constitution of the sun, so a living entity is a minute particle of the Supreme Spirit. The individual soul and the Supreme Lord are not separated as in material differentiation. The individual soul is a particle from the very beginning. One should not think that because the individual soul is a particle, it is fragmented from the whole spirit. MAyAvAda philosophy enunciates that the whole spirit exists, but a part of it, which is called the jIva, is entrapped by illusion. This philosophy, however, is unacceptable because spirit cannot be divided like a fragment of matter. That part, the jIva, is eternally a part. As long as the Supreme Spirit exists, His part and parcel also exists. As long as the sun exists, the molecules of the sun's rays also exist.

 

The jIva particle is estimated in the Vedic literature to be one ten-thousandth the size of the upper portion of a hair. It is therefore infinitesimal. The Supreme Spirit is infinite, but the living entity, or the individual soul, is infinitesimal, although it is not different in quality from the Supreme Spirit. Two words in this verse are to be particularly noted. One is nirantaram, which means "nondifferent," or "of the same quality." The individual soul is also expressed here as aNimAnam. ANimAnam means "infinitesimal." The Supreme Spirit is all-pervading, but the very small spirit is the individual soul. AkhaNDitam means not exactly "fragmented" but "constitutionally always infinitesimal." No one can separate the molecular parts of the sunshine from the sun, but at the same time the molecular part of the sunshine is not as expansive as the sun itself. Similarly, the living entity, by his constitutional position, is qualitatively the same as the Supreme Spirit, but he is infinitesimal.

</blockquote>

[gHari 0]

You do not answer the question. Answer another question and hope I am dull-witted enough not to notice your cheating. You are not worthy of holding any opinions on this topic. You should not trust such a cheating mind.

 

Once again, why would Srila Prabhupada even consider these statements if a guru could not possibly head the Gaudiya Matha (given that the master would be present forever in it):<blockquote>He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math.

 

If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned.

</blockquote>

[Guruvani 0]

"One should therefore avoid observing a pure devotee externally, but should try to see the internal features and understand how he is engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. In this way one can avoid seeing the pure devotee from a material point of view, and thus one can gradually become a purified devotee himself."

 

Srila Prabhupada

NOI

[gHari 0]

Yet Guruvani continues to make more threads about this insane ritvik idea. Does he have no integrity?

 

Do not follow this fellow's crocodile infested mind unless you can agree with his speculations here: that we cannot accept Prabhupada's direct words since he is a pure devotee and who knows why he says what he says. That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.

 

If the premise of ritvik is so irrational, then the whole thing is similarly just nonsense as well. It is for people who cannot come back to ISKCON because of bad behaviour, but who want to be big gurus. Beware of such ambition. We all see that they never speak of Krsna. What kind of path is this?

 

Please, do not ruin your life with this concoction.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

Good counsel for the welfare of all. Giving sufficient warning on this deviant concocted poisonous pseudo-philosophy -all in the name of serving Srila Prabhupada . In the end they should be totally ignored and they will eventually go away or die.

 

Ps.- What sound do the frogs make in Vrindavan ?

 

Answer: "Rtvik...rtvik...rtvik...rtvik...rtvik....rtvik..."

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[Guruvani 0]

Your accusataions are actually criticims of Srila Prabhupada as he is the one who instituted the rtvik system in ISKCON and signed his final directive that it would continue from that day on.

Your offenses are to Prabhupada directly and not to those who simply repeat his orders and directives.

You are boiling in your own oil from bitterness and spite. Don't blame others when they try to be loyal to the orders of Srila Prabhupada.

Getting angry and spouting off vengeful diatribes only exposes the true qualities within that caused you to reject Prabhupada for your own concocted ideas.

[Guest guest]

ok...you are right... please stay at least a month without speaking of this "ritvik", we need some time for elaborate

 

but better if you do not speak more about this, we are so fallen, leave us alone and let us go to hell

[gHari 0]

The source of the UpS and dOwNs, the Harvard-kyoto convention (columns A and B):

 

<center><img src=http://home.primus.ca/~caitanya/Harvard-Kyoto.gif></center>

[Guest guest]

I don't understand the joke.Please explain,i am dull.

[gHari 0]

na mAM duSkRtino mUDhAH

prapadyante narAdhamAH

mAyayApahRta-jJAnA

AsuraM bhAvam AzritAH

 

That Harvard-kyoto scheme is used so that people without special fonts on their browsers can read these sanskrit verses with proper pronunciation. You will see how captial 'A' actually means 'a' with a line over it. Like that, so they will pronounce it aaaaaaa instead of just a.

 

I thought that your use of capitals in the title was referring to the crazy Ups and DowNs of the Harvard-kyoto texts I am always posting.