The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[raga 0]

Theist: So it sounds like you are saying the jiva's are only considered marginal when situated in neutrality.Correct?So if one was to just regain that neutral footing without developing love of Godhead he would again be considered marginal?Hmmmm..?

 

No, I am saying that the jivas are marginal as long as they keep going to the margin (Maha-Vishnu in the causal ocean) and back creation after creation. As I said, the term "marginal" is not attributed to anything by using "free will" as the criteria. Marginal is a definition based on the location of the jiva, as was earlier demonstrated by Bhaktivinoda.

 

The jiva is "marginal" here and now, on account of his origin and location. He becomes "non-marginal" when he goes to a place from where he no longer returns to the margin again and again.

 

And he always has a free will to some extent, and it always remains limited, because he is small and limited, in contrast to the one who is great and unlimited.

[raga 0]

gHari: No. We do not leave it up to the reader to decide. We accept the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada: "never mind what is your origin." That is his final conclusion on the subject.

Do you want to deprive the readers of their free will? My, then they will no longer be marginal!

 

To end on a serious note, if "never mind what is your origin" is the final conclusion, then what about the following:

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world."

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.28.54, purport by ACBSP)

 

<center> </center>

 

If he wanted that you should "never mind about your origin", then what is the purport of this purport?

 

[krsna 3]

 

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world."

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.28.54, purport by ACBSP)

 

 

<CENTER> </CENTER>

 

If he wanted that you should "never mind about your origin", then what is the purport of this purport?

 

Purport's Purport is what is needed! Who will give?

[Guest guest]

The purports are all in his books!

 

 

Purport's Purport is what is needed! Who will give?

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

I fell from Mahakalapurna-loka (where Mayavadis go). ALL you lot fell from Goloka. Haha. (just a joke, )

[krsna 3]

 

Maybe that is why Jaiva Dharma recommends that we wait for a stronger taste of this higher platform so we can truly understand things as they are:

 

Real Nectarean Taste of KRSNA Prema

[Kulapavana 0]

one thing that comes to mind in that connection:

 

if we came here from the shore (tatastha) of the Viraja river than it is hard for us to think that bhakti is our original mood and seva our original activity. perhaps that is one of the main reasons for SP to hint that we fell from Goloka.

 

lets face it: WE NEVER HAD BHAKTI. we should serve true Vaishnavas to get it.

[Devarsirat 0]

Srila Prabhupada writes in his purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.7.9:

 

Quote: "According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord."

 

 

Srila Prabhupada sometimes says the jiva falls from association with Krsna and sometimes he says the opposite. It seems to be contradictory, but I think this is according to time and circumstance and depends to whom he is talking but then in His books Srila Prabhupada states the final conclusion

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26:

 

Bhaktivinode Thakura writes in the tattva viveka on page 55 "It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres."

 

As far as I understand, the inhabitants of krishnas planets, are eternally liberated souls and they only descent to assist in one of Krishnas pastimes otherwise they never do.

 

The idea that there is an original of us in the spiritual world and we are like an expansion is a faulty speculation, put into circulation by one "high up" in Iskcon in a btg article ones a couple of years ago and has no foundation in any of our authorised books at all, so dont wonder if there is something like this and stick to what Srila Prabhupada writes, that is always best.

[Guest guest]

from:

In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall

by Kundali prabhu

 

from chapter:

FIRST WAVE: CHAPTER FOUR

THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA

ACCORDING TO

SRILA PRABHUPADA

 

From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purport)

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode.” (Bhag. 3.16.26, purport)

This ordinary living being is of two kinds—nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other is eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purport)

 

The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purport)

Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purport).

 

Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there. (Bhag. 3.16.29, purport)

 

The devotees of the Lord, however, never fall down. In Bhagavad-gita (9.31), the Supreme Personality of Godhead assures Arjuna, kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati: “O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.” Again in Bhagavad-gita (2.40), Krsna says:

nehabhikrama-naso ’sti

pratyavayo na vidyate

svalpam apy asya dharmasya

trayate mahato bhayat

 

“In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous types of fear.” (Bg. 2.40) (NOI 3 purport)

 

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purport)

 

They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikuntha-loka. Similarly, one who learns the faithful service of Lord Krsna through the Krsna consciousness movement will always remain in Vaikuntha-loka and have nothing to do with the material world. (Bhag. 6.1.34, 36, purport)

 

But once one is engaged in the spiritual activities of bhakti-yoga, one does not fall down. (Bhag. 8.3.11)

 

The living entities are divided into two categories—the eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy. This is described in Bhagavad-gita: daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya “This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome.” (Bg. 7.14) The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy. (Cc. Madhya. 22. 14-15

 

 

 

There are living entities; their number is greater. Nitya-mukta, ever-liberated. They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world. And we are nitya-baddha—ever-conditioned, eternally conditioned. (Bhag. Lecture, 1973, Mayapura)

 

There are two kinds of living entities. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world; they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither they do know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya siddhas. Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddhas.

Anyone who is in this material world, nitya-baddha. And nitya-siddhas, they belong to the spiritual world. They never come in contact with this material world, and even they come for some business under the order of the Supreme Lord, they do not touch these material qualities. They remain always transcendental. As Krsna remains always transcendental, even though He is in this material world, similarly, Krsna’s nitya-siddha associates, they are also transcendental. They never touch this material world. (Bg. Lecture, 1973)

 

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, Releasing Nanda Maharaja From the Clutches of Varuna, p. 186)

[Devarsirat 0]

There we are

 

 

Books are Sastra and for the final truth, spoken words are for preaching.

[Guest guest]

 

A recent article by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja entitled The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka , which can found read online at

 

"It would be quite absurd to think that liberated souls in Goloka Vrndavana can ever be covered by maya. You should have strong faith that the jivas did not fall from there. They have come from the marginal point. They have come from Karanabdhisayi Visnu and from tatastha-sakti. Jiva himself is tatastha-sakti."

 

Didn't Srila Prabhupada teach that the jivas originally were in the spiritual world and later fell to the material world?

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world." (From Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54 purport by Srila Prabhupada)

 

It seems to me that Srila Narayana Maharaja's statement that the jiva did not fall from the spiritual world is contradictory to Srila Prabhupada's explanation of how the jiva came to the material world.They can't both be right here.Comments,anyone?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 04-10-2002).]

 

The concept would make sense only if you view it in a materialstic sense,its like getting demoted at work when u commit a mistake,but how can u commit a mistake in goloka,it was one of the 100s of flawed theories of Srila PPAda,like how he divided Hinduism by saying all gods r demigods except krsna,that is a westernised view of Hinduism,PPada created Iskon from the support and funding of americans so he twisted and created theories to suit the materialistic view of most people..

[gHari 0]

From Brahma-Samhita 5.38:

 

The eye of devotion is nothing but the eye of the pure unalloyed spiritual self of the jIva. The form of KRSNa is visible to that eye in proportion to its purification by the practice of devotion. When the devotion of the neophyte reaches the stage of bhAva-bhakti the pure eye of that devotee is tinged with the salve of love by the grace of KRSNa, which enables him to see KRSNa face to face. The phrase "in their hearts" means KRSNa is visible in proportion as their hearts are purified by the practice of devotion.

 

[Guest guest]

I will attempt to clear up the long standing misconception on this issue.

 

Sometimes we hear Srila Prabhupada speak in terms of what we have just read in the above post about the living entity falling down from the spiritual world

 

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world." (From Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54 purport by Srila Prabhupada)

 

Please note that Srila Prabhupada uses the term "peacefully".

Peacefully means shanta-rasa.

Shanta rasa is the stage of neutrality.

From neutrality the living entity can either become favorable to Krishna or unfavorable.

If he become unfavorable, the he falls down from the viraja which is the lowest plane of the spiritual world.

 

Srila Prabhupada never wanted to give any fuel or ammunition to the mayavadi conception by preaching that the living entity has any impersonal origins.

 

As such, he preached in a way that eliminated as much as possible any impersonal concepts of the living entity.

 

that is the way of the pure devotees who come from Goloka to preach.

 

They don't always conform to the views and concepts that sadhana-siddha devotees sometimes preach.

 

However, if you study his canon in the entirety, then you will get a much better picture than if you just search the whole canon for one or two small statements that support a very novice understanding of the origins of the jiva.

[gHari 0]

I very much doubt that that was his meaning. All living entities in santa-rasa?

 

"One or two statements"? That again is misrepresenting the facts.

 

You may well be right, but don't try to prove it with exaggerations. Numerically the falls outnumber the no-falls substantially. Choosing one side of a paradox has never worked before.

[gHari 0]

http://vedabase.net/sb/11/11/1/en

[Guest guest]

A Short Presentation on Jiva-tattva

 

 

By Swami B. B. Visnu

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.... it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

 

[The Spiritual World] contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions...

It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

 

Purpose:

 

To present pertinent quotes from sastra, acaryas and our acarya (Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) on the subject of jiva-tattva in a logical way that shows conclusively that the living entities in the spiritual world do not fall from there. We have purposely avoided making statements or including references which are ambiguous, as they distract the reader from the focus of this paper. The necessity for this paper arises due to the continued misunderstanding of the actual siddhanta on jiva-tattva by a section of devotees. Many illogical statements have been made in defense of the theory that we fall from the Lord's eternal lila. We will show by analysis of rasa-tattva and logic that is is completely impossible and illogical for living entities to fall from the spiritual world.

 

Evidence:

 

All evidence given by all Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas, sastra, and Vaishnava publications directly states that we do not fall from the spiritual world [either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana]. When the primary meaning of evidence is clear and coherent there is no necessity to interpret it, as stated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:

 

For each sutra the direct meaning must be accepted without interpretation. However, you simply abandon the direct meaning and proceed with your imaginative interpretation. Although there is other evidence, the evidence given in the Vedic version must be taken as foremost. Vedic versions understood directly are first-class evidence. (Cc. Madhya-lila 6.134-5, texts)

 

No Fall References: The living entities [jivas ] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned... [the first are] always awake to Krsna consciousness,... eternal associates.. eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text) In the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)

 

Websters New World Dictionary defines "infallible" as: 1- incapable of error, never wrong, 2-not liable to fail, go wrong, make a mistake etc, 3-incapable of error in setting forth doctrine on faith and morals.

The third characteristic of Vaikuntha is that one does not fall (Bhag.-sand. 61) Free jivas are never enslaved. (Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, Lecture, Bhaktisiddanta S Thakura ) The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.) . . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

 

The conclusion [re Jaya-Vijaya] is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

... they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.)

 

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.... it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

 

The question is that, why the living entity falls down? It is not falls down. Just like Jaya-Vijaya came just to satisfy his master. His master desired fighting, so some of His servant went to the material world and became great enemy." (720405SB.MEL)

 

Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

 

In the spiritual world... inhabitants...They're aksara. They do not fall down. Ksara aksara. We are ksaras. We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us. (741105SB.BOM)

 

Statements taken as indicating that the origin of all living entities in this material world is by falling from the Lord's lila are obtained thru misinterpretation of secondary indirect statements and not primary direct statements. According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, one must consider direct first hand evidence rather than subsidiary indirect statements interpreted according to one's necessity. To introduce ambiguous statements and interpret them distorts the clear meaning of the primary evidence further. The Our Original Position book (OOP's) clouds the issue by presenting inconclusive arguments without answering the many contradictions pointed out in this presentation.

 

Sarvabhauma Battacarya tried to defeat Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with many false arguments: "The word vitanda indicates that a debater, not touching the main point or establishing his own point, simply tries to refute the other person's argument. When one does not touch the direct meaning but tries to divert attention by misinterpretation, he engages in chala. " (Cc. Madhya-lila 6.176, purp.)

 

For example, a verse sometimes cited as evidence of falldown is Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.37,

 

bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad

isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih

tan-mayayato budha abhajet tam

bhaktyaikayesam guru-devatatma

 

When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called maya.

 

This verse does not make any reference to liberated souls nor even to the spiritual world. No acaryas have explained this verse as indicative of falldown from Vaikuntha, indeed this verse states that this condition of turning away from the Lord is brought about by maya, which is not present in Vaikuntha (cf. Bhag 2.9.10: na yatra maya ). Proponents of the "Fall Theory" like to equate statements such as "forgetting Krsna" as synonomous with the assumption that we were with Krsna in the spiritual world and forgot Him. Srila Prabhupada however dispelled this misunderstanding in a letter to Jagadisa Dasa in 1970:

 

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

 

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs.

 

The understanding that is presented here very clearly by Srila Prabhupada is much different than that interpreted by some–that we were all originally with the Lord in His lila in the spiritual world. In the purport of this famous Bhag. 11.2.37, krsna bhuli verse (alsoCc. Madhya-lila 20.117) Srila Prabhupada explains the text of this verse, translated as "Forgetting Krsna" as meaning

 

When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Krsna.

 

Furthermore, the statements presented above of Srila Prabhupada and other acaryas, directly refuting the fall hypothesis are completely ignored by proponents of this hypothesis without any attempt to reconcile them. Therefore the burden of proof lies with those proposing this fall theory. Additional references are available at:

 

 

Free Will

 

Free choice is an inherent quality of all living entities, yet this quality is greatly misunderstood. As we will show, residents of the spiritual world are blissful and are never forgetful of their eternal position as servitors of the Supreme Lord and therefore will never misuse their free will. All living entities in the spiritual world are on the same transcendental platform. References for this are given later in this presentation. There is no more chance for a jiva to leave the spiritual world than it is possible for Baladeva to give up his relationship with Lord Krsna.

 

A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available, otherwise there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly. (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.)

 

The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. (Bhag. 1.8.23, purp.)

 

The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord. (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)

 

A pure devotee of the Lord is so purified in his heart that he cannot leave the shelter of Lord Krsna in any circumstances. There is no self-interest in such service. (Bhag. 2.8.6, purp.)

 

Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?

Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service. (670218CC.SF)

 

Krsna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." (731213mw.la)

 

In the ISKCON GBC Position booklet (OOPs p. 194) it is stated that the residents of the spiritual world have the free will to leave, as a crazy man has the free will to jump off the roof. In this booklet they state that these residents are indeed crazy (bewildered) when they leave. This explanation is very insubstantial and misleading. In the material world we always have the choice between matter and spirit but in the spiritual world there is no matter so one will not and cannot choose matter.

 

The living entity enmeshed in maya sees no viable choice besides maya, in the sense that he is attached and thinks that this life of maya is in his best interest. Although he has the free choice to choose spiritual life, he sees this as a threat to his sense gratification and therefore undesirable. In the spiritual world however, the living entity, fully absorbed and overwhelmed with ecstatic love, cannot bear the thought of doing anything averse to the Lord's interest—seeing this as a threat to his continued absorption in pure loving ecstatic devotional service—his very life. In the spiritual world, all the living entities are fully self-realized. As shown below in section 6a, they have fully realized the conclusions of sastra—that they are an eternal servant of the Lord, and they are fully experiencing their realizations of eternal blissfulness. It is not that they know every last detail of sastra. For example, some of the gopis were previously the Personified Vedas. Although as gopis, they are celebrated as exhibiting the highest standard of devotion and are recognized as such by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu—ramya kacit upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena, they had almost no knowledge of the Vedas, and state as much in their wonderful prayers upon meeting their beloved Krsna after so long at Kuruksetra. (Bhag. 10.82.48) Yet we should not agree with them that they are ordinary girls simply engaged in household affairs. They are the personification of the Vedas, absorbed in the highest mellows of devotion—krsna-prema.

 

Thesis

 

The source of the dispute over the siddhanta regarding the origin of the jiva stems from the fact that vast amounts of devotees are not well read in the Goswami's literatures, have not understood their conclusions properly and thus do not properly know the siddhanta. A lack of proper understanding or appreciation of the most dear associates of the Lord is shown, for instance, by those who try to equate the appearance of the pure devotee Tulasi-devi in this material world as synonomous with that of ordinary conditioned jivas.

 

... tulasi is given special preference by the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.19, text)

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains... Urja is [the Lord's] internal potency for performing pastimes; she expands as the tulasi plant in this world. (Bhag. 10.39.53-5, purp.)

 

Tulasi Devi never goes back to Godhead, she is always with Godhead. She is a pure devotee and thus she has appeared on this planet to render service to Krsna by being offered in all temples throughout the world, by being offered up to the lotus feet of Krsna. (SP Ltr Radhavallabha: 6 January, 1972)

 

Yes, Sri Tulasi is the eternal consort of Krsna, and the most pure devotee, and therefore, the Tulasi plant is worshipped by Vaisnavas. (SP Ltr Balai: 22 March, 1968)

 

Sastra says, "Tulasi is the greatest devotee of Krsna." We have to accept, that's all. Authority. How she is so great devotee, that you will understand when you become a devotee. (730222SB.AUC)

 

People present many illogical arguments, kutarka. They consider the Lord in Goloka and the eternal transcendental variety, in the form of the eternal relation between the worshipable Lord and His devotees, equal to the temporary activities of the conditioned souls under the influence of maya. Many arguments are raised in such philosophy considering the eternal transcendental objects equal to the material inert objects, but reality is not so. The pastimes of the svarupa-sakti of the Lord are not equal to the temporary endeavors of the conditioned soul in the material world. (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,Vivrti on Bhag. 3.7.11)

 

In fact to think that any associate of the Lord in the spiritual world can fall from His association showns a lack of understanding of the basic intrinsic nature of the Lord's svarupa-sakti and it's wonderful all absorbing ecstatic attribute, Krsna-prema.

 

Prema References:

 

In the material world there cannot be prema. Prema means love. The prema is only possible in the spiritual world. (720522SB.LA)

 

Conclusion is that when you get your spiritual body then the desire will be different. And that is prema...in the spiritual world, because there is no material body, only desire is how to satisfy Krsna. Kama krsna karmarpane. (761127SB.VRN)

 

In the Vaikuntha planets there is actual, spiritual ananda. Krsna is there in His ecstatic, spiritual form, surrounded by His blissful associates, all of them eternally full of bliss and knowledge. They have nothing to do with material existence. In the spiritual planets even the scenery and birds and animals are fully conscious of Krsna and are absorbed in transcendental bliss. (Bhag. 11.2.37, purp.)

 

Antithesis

 

If we [incorrectly] assume that the siddhanta is that we do fall from the spiritual world, we are faced with a host of contradictions which cannot be resolved. The bulk of this presentation is concerned with documenting these contradictions with quotes from sastra, our acaryas and Srila Prabhupada.

 

The official Iskcon GBC presentation, Our Original Position, fails to prove that the nitya-mukta jivas fall from the spiritual world. Inconclusive statements are given in an attempt to show that the jivas all originated in this material world by falling from the Lords lila in the spiritual world. This OOPs book does not address the real arguments or resolve the innumerable contradictions which arise from their hypothesis.

 

The jivas originate from the tatastha.

 

Innumerable references from prominent acaryas, some of which are given below, clearly and repeatedly state that the marginal jivas originate from the tatastha-sakti of the Lord and not in the spiritual (cit-sakti) realm itself.

 

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. (Tattva Viveka 2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, page 55)

 

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, pag 234)

 

The previous reference is also quoted in OOP's on page 269 but rather than accept this straightforward statement for what it is, it is lamely suggested that we shouldn't try to understand such things. One may then intelligently ask, "Then why have you written the OOPs book at all?!"

 

There are two types of jivas liberated from maya: nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana. (Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17, p. 251)

 

The following reference is very clear and straightforward, presented exactly as translated and published in English by leading devotee scholars under the direction of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

 

The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit... When he desired to have His adherent attendance 'nitya parshada ' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana, Vaikuntha, etc, He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds... Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-shakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha shakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya ... As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-shakti that begets the jivas, and not the chit-shakti. " (Bhaktivinode Thakura, Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 15)

 

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literature's, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

 

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. (Bhag. 4.30.5, purport)

 

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.c. Madhya-lila 5.22)

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord - which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls - is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad 16, purp., 9th parag.)

 

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. (Tattva-viveka 2.4, purp.)

 

 

 

Unexplainable contradictions inherent in the "Fall Theory:"

 

* There are no sastric statements that we fall from the spiritual world nor are there any references anywhere to a "mukta-baddha " living entity--that is, a nitya-mukta living entity that has fallen from the spiritual world and become nitya-baddha. Bhaktivinode Thakura in his Jaiva Dharma lists three types of living entities and gives specific information of their creation by the Lord. That is, the nitya-mukta parsada's of Vaikuntha are generated by Sankarsana, the nitya-mukta parsada's of Goloka Vrndavana are generated by Balarama and the marginal jivas of the tatastha-sakti are generated from Maha Vishnu. He does not mention a fourth type of entity, nor does any other authoritative source anywhere mention such an entity.

 

-- The only statements, both in sastra and by Vaishnava acaryas are that the residents of the spiritual world are infallible and are eternally resident there--forever free from the influence of maya. Innumerable commentaries by prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas clearly indicate that we do not fall from the spiritual world. Srila Prabhupada also states that "the conclusion is that no one falls." (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) These clearly stated "no fall" statements cannot even begin to be reconciled by the "fall theory" advocates. This one point in itself renders the "fall theory" inconclusive and erroneous. There is no sastra sangati--reconciliation of contradictory statements of sastra or acaryas. To present a non-sastric and incomplete explanation that the residents of Vaikuntha have not actually fallen but are only daydreaming about mahamaya is not at all consistent with the numerous quotes presented herein--the residents of Vaikuntha never forget Krsna, never are influenced by maha-maya, are eternally blissful etc. If they experience any dreams they would certainly be about Krsna.

 

-- All bonafide Vaishnava acaryas and publications unanimously state that the living entities do not fall from the spiritual world. [4] In recent years, there are some devotees that have published views contrary to those of the Vaishnava acaryas in hopes of establishing their own siddhanta. This is not acceptable. Numerous quotations from prominent Vaishnava authorities are presented in our web site:

 

 

 

We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exaulted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, a leading disciple of Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and leading sannyasi disciples of Srila Prabhupada such as Jagat Guru Swami B. G. Narasingha and Swami B. V. Tripurari and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples.

 

Although Srila Prabhupada mentions having differences with his godbrothers and the Gaudiya Matha he never once even suggests that they do not understand the siddhanta. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different from that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja. These aforementioned Vaisnavas are seniormost in terms of their realizations and spiritual standing, so their knowledge and realization should not be completely disregarded. Additionally, our godbrother, the late Gour Govinda Maharaja, was highly learned in siddhanta and scrutinizingly studied the commentaries of our acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He was known for his uncompromizing firm stand with the "No Fall" siddhanta.

 

-- The residents of the spiritual world are extremely happy and being very much in love with Krsna, could never consider leaving.[5a]. Yogamaya always acts to perfect the Lord's lila. [5b] Residents cannot become envious [5c] and there is no disharmony there. [5d]

 

5a- References showing that the residents of the spiritual world are extremely happy and being very much in love with Krsna, could never consider leaving.

 

The nitya-siddha devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)

 

Whether boys, youths, or grown-up persons-every one of the millions of cowherd residents of Vraja feels himself the dearest to Krsna. (Brhad-bhag. 2.6.211, text)

 

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, "One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord." He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6).

 

For a devotee who has actually developed bhava, the pleasure derived from dharma, artha, kama and moksa appears like a drop in the presence of the sea. (Cc. Adi-lila 7.85, text)

 

The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord. [bhag. 1.8.31, purport]

 

The conception of spiritual bliss (Brahmananda) is fully present in those planets ... That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

 

For all living entities to be attracted toward Krsna is natural, and therefore the Lord's real name is Krsna, meaning He who attracts everyone and everything. The typical examples of such attraction are found in Vrndavana, where everything and everyone is attracted by Krsna... all living beings are attracted by Krsna. This is the natural situation of everything in Vrndavana. Just contrary to the affairs of Vrndavana is the material world, where no one is attracted by Krsna and everyone is attracted by maya. This is the difference between the spiritual and material worlds. (Bhag. 7.5.14, purp.)

 

The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana. He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana. [710217CC.GOR]

 

In the spiritual world there is no such distinction. The officer and the cleaner, they are of the same importance. That is even Krsna, with Krsna. That is spiritual world. In Vrndavana the cowherds boys, they are playing with Krsna on equal terms. They do not know Krsna is God. They simply know how to love Krsna, that's all. There is no need of thinking that "Krsna is greater than the other cowherds boy. They are living entities." There is no such sense. Krsna wants that. That is Goloka Vrndavana worship. Simply the center is Krsna, and all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they love Krsna, and they do not know anything except Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. Everyone knows that "Krsna is my very intimate friend." Somebody knows, "Krsna is my son," somebody knows that "Krsna is my master," and somebody is thinking, "Krsna is my lover." But center is Krsna. The cows, the calves, the friends, the gops, and the cowherds boy, Krsna's father, Nanda Maharaja, Krsna's mother, Yasomati, and . . . Everyone's center is Krsna, "How Krsna will be happy?" This is Vrndavana life. (750312DP.LON)

 

Vrndavana means this attachment to Krsna. Central point is Krsna, but the varieties of attachment, they are the same. The only difference is that this attachment centering round Krsna is never broken. (750709SB.CHI)

 

 

 

5b- The Yoga-maya energy of the spiritual world always acts to perfect the Lords lila.

 

Yogamaya... acts to perfect all the pastimes of the Lord with His different types of devotees. (Bhag. 2.7.30, purp.)

 

The transcendental happiness exhibited in the spiritual world and all other spiritual manifestations there are made possible by the influence of yoga-maya, the internal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 3.15.26, purport)

 

When a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

 

There is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates... The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of yogamaya, the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend... exactly like a son... exactly like a lover... exactly like a husband... Such devotees...think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul. That is the relation between the Lord and His transcendental devotees... When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. (Bhag. 1.11.39, purp.)

 

The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord. [bhag. 1.8.31, purport]

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami has elaborately explained... One of the fundamental philosophical principles of the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the distinction between two types of illusion, Yoga-maya and Maha-maya, the spiritual and material states of existence, respectively. Although Krsna is God, the omnipotent, omniscient Supreme Being, His intimate associates in the spiritual world love Him so much that they see Him as their beloved child, friend, lover and so on. So that their ecstatic love can transcend the boundaries of mere reverence, they forget that Krsna is the Supreme God of all the universes, and thus their pure, intimate love expands unlimitedly. (Bhag. 10.28.13, purp. by disciples of Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)

 

Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. Ltr Aniruddha 68-11-14

 

The Lord and His pure devotees are always beyond the range of Maya's action. Even though they appear like action of Maya, we should understand their action of Yogamaya or the internal potency of the Lord. SP Ltr Satsvarupa 68-04-03

 

Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. (Ltr Aniruddha 68-11-14)

 

By the influence of the Lord's yogamaya potency, Krsna's cowherd boyfriends think themselves His equals and sometimes challenge Him. A boy will climb on His back and say, "What kind of a big man are You?" Similarly, when mother Yasoda or Srimati Radharani chides Krsna, He likes it. (NBS 2.27)

 

5c- Envy does not manifest in the spiritual world.

 

The most important thing about the spiritual world is that there is no envy among the devotees there. (Bhag. 3.15.19, purp.)

 

Where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge... ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy–are completely absent. (Cc. Madhya 5.22, purp.)

 

There is no envy in the spiritual world. The OOP's book states that when a resident there becomes envious he must leave because envy is not allowed. We do not agree that envy can manifest even for a fraction of a second. If you wish to light a match in a gas filled room and think that you may go outside after lighting the match you will blow yourself up first, you cannot have the fire in the room for a moment. Similarly envy cannot even manifest in the spiritual realm--the nature of the spiritual world is such that the unpleasant conditions under which envy and other negative material qualities may develop are completely absent there, as we have shown with the many references quoted herein.

 

5d- References that there is absolutely no disharmony in spiritual world

 

In the Vaikuntha world there is complete harmony between the residents and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 3.15.33, text)

 

In the Vaikuntha world there is no question of enmity between the Lord and the residents. (Bhag. 3.15.32, purport)

 

... are absolutely in harmony with the Personality of Godhead, or in other words, they always think of the Lord as their only dependable friend and well-wisher. (Bhag. 2.2.18, purp.)

 

In the Vaikuntha world there is no disharmony between the Lord and the residents. Therefore God's creation in the Vaikuntha world is perfect. There is no cause of fear. The entire kingdom of God is such a completely harmonious unit that there is no possibility of emnity. Everything there is absolute . . . Maya means disharmony between the living entities and the Supreme Lord, and Vaikuntha means harmony between them. (Bhag. 3.15.33, purp.)

 

[in the spiritual world] those who are in oneness with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, are called infallible. Oneness does not mean that they have no individuality, but that there is no disunity. (Bg. 15.16, purp.)

 

In the spiritual world... there is no disparity because everyone wants to render service to the Supreme Lord, and no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.)

 

There the devotees are so much in accord with Krsna and Visnu that there is no question of disagreement. (690411rc.ny)

 

There is no more jati, no more distinction. Everything serving. That one. The master is also spiritual, and the servant is also spiritual, and there is no other relationship. Here in the material world we artificially want to become . . . we want to become God. But in the spiritual world there is no such conception. (741216SB.BOM)

 

 

 

-- Many statements exist in sastra and the writings of Gaudiya Acaryas which clearly indicate that the residents of the spiritual world are all self-realized [6a], full of knowledge and six opulences [6b], infallible [6c], are pure devotees [6d], have no desires [6e] and are suddha-sattva/cinmaya-rasa [6f]. A detailed investigation of these qualities clearly reveals that it is impossible for those possessing such qualities to ever desire to leave the spiritual world. [6g]

 

6a- References showing that the residents of the spiritual world are all self realized

 

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka... are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.)

 

Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.33, purp.)

 

Definitions of Self Realized:

 

Knows his constitutional position perfectly well. (Bg 5.20, purp.)

 

Fixed in the understanding that his eternal position is to serve in association with the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 3.26.2, purp.)

 

To know the individual self and the reciprocal exchanges of loving service between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the living entity is real self-realization. (Bhag. 3.27.28-9, purp.)

 

Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord... they are eternally fixed for they understand the position of the Supreme being, as well as their individual constitution. (Bhag. 4.24.33, purp.)

 

Even in the midst of great distress, a self-realized sage does not lose control of himself, nor is his spiritual knowledge lost... His mind is fixed on the Supreme Personality of Godhead... he cannot be surpassed or overwhelmed. (Bhag. 11.8.5. purp.)

 

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, a self-realized soul cuts all doubts to pieces by direct experience of his true spiritual identity... there is no possibility of any existence separate from Lord Krsna. (Bhag. 11.11.12-13, purp. by disciples of Srila Prabhupada)

 

6b- The residents are completely fixed in knowledge of their constitutional position.

 

The following quotes prove that every resident of the spiritual world is fully cognizant in their sat-cit-ananda spiritual body and cannot become illusioned; additionally, illusion being a product of maya, is not allowed there–na yatra maya (Bhag. 2.9.10). They have free choice but but being in full knowledge and infallible they choose to use it properly and never wish to imitate the Lord.

 

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance... (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

 

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, we can understand from this verse that since none of the material facilities available in any of the universal planetary systems can distract a pure devotee of the Lord, such a devotee can never possibly fall or become inimical to the Lord's service. (Bhag. 11.2.53, purp. by disciples of Srila Prabhupada)

 

In the spiritual world... no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.)

 

In the spiritual world, there is no forgetfulness by the living entities, who are free from all kinds of contaminations resulting from the forgetful state of existence... the whole atmosphere of the spiritual world is called vidya, or full of knowledge. (Bhag. 2.6.21, purp.)

 

. . . in that pure conscious state [in the spiritual world] the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (Bhag. 2.9.1, purp. last parag.)

 

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.)

 

A nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)

 

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.)

 

A man with full knowledge knows perfectly well that there cannot be any existence without Krsna. (Bhag. 7.15.58, purp.)

 

An exalted and pure devotee like Maharaja Ambarisa is in full awareness of Paramatma, Brahman, maya, the material world, the spiritual world, and how things are going on everywhere. (Bhag. 9.5.25, purp.)

 

... he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)

 

. . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

 

[the nitya-mukta living entity] never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)

 

The living beings in Vaikunthaloka are never forgetful of their identities: they are eternally cognizant of their relationship with God (Cc. Madhya-lila 5.22, purp.)

 

Within this material world there are different grades of forms, and according to the grade, knowledge is proportionately manifested. For example, the knowledge in the body of a child is not as perfect as the knowledge in the body of an adult man. Everywhere there are different grades of living entities–in aquatic animals, in the plants and trees, in the reptiles and insects, in birds and beasts and in the civilized and uncivilized human forms of life. Above the human form of life there are demigods, Caranas and Siddhas on up to Brahmaloka, where Lord Brahma lives, and among these demigods there are always different grades of knowledge. But past this material world, in the spiritual sky, everyone is in full knowledge, and therefore all the living entities there are engaged in devotional service to the Lord, either in the Vaikuntha planets or in Krsnaloka. (Krsna Book, Ch 28)

 

The description of the spiritual world... Suddha-sattva means simply goodness, pure goodness... And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything... So the living entities there, they are full of knowledge. Therefore they do not come into this material world. (661217CC.NY)

 

Root of forgetfullness is avidya, which is not present in the spiritual world. (cf. Cc. Madhya-lila 6.155)

 

Cit means that he's full of knowledge. That is not in ignorance. This material happiness is in ignorance. And spiritual happiness is suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means pure goodness... Sattvam visuddham, visuddham vasudeva-sabditam. That is transcendental platform, and in that platform you can understand God. (690618SB.NV)

 

In the spiritual world the form is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. Every form is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. That is the difference between material world and spiritual world. (760419BG.MEL)

 

Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

 

We contrast these descriptions of self-realization and full knowledge regarding the residents of the spiritual worlds with that presented in the GBC Position Booklet. Therein, "full of knowledge" is defined as "possessing only a small portion of knowledge according to ones small capacity and necessity." It is also stated that, "the living entity, covered by envy, cannot recognize that he will suffer in the material world...Covered by lust, the living entity forgets his original knowledge and enters into the material domain to try to satisfy his desires." Here in particular, three gross mistakes are made. The first mistake is the assumption that "full knowledge," in reference to the residents of the spiritual world, can be interpreted to mean that these residents are not fully self realized as shown above and therefore they make the mistake of choosing to go to the material world. The second mistake is that the living entity may be covered by envy and lust while still within the spiritual world. The third mistake is that a resident of the spiritual world has desires to satisfy. These points have already been discussed and validated in this essay.

 

6c- References that the residents of the spiritual world are infallible

 

. . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)

 

Deathlessness, fearlessness and freedom from the anxieties of old age and disease exist in the kingdom of God. (Bhag. 2.6.19, text)

 

The spiritual world... is especially meant for those who will never be reborn. (Bhag. 2.6.20, text)

 

The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purport)

 

In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda, it is stated ...the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

 

The three-fourths part manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss without any deterioration. (720426SB.TOK)

 

The Lord has His internal energy also, which has another creation known to be the Vaikunthalokas, where there is no ignorance, no passion, no illusion and no past and present. With a poor fund of knowledge one may be unable to understand the existence of such things as the Vaikuntha atmosphere, but that does not nullify its existence. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

 

6d- References that residents of the spiritual world are pure devotees

 

In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees. (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.)

 

... Vaikuntha planets, in each of which the Supreme Personality of Godhead... enjoys Himself in the association of unlimited numbers of pure devotee associates. (Bhag. 2.2.31, purp.)

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... are pure devotees. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.)

 

6e- References that pure devotees (such as the residents of the spiritual world) have no personal desires (for sense gratification).

 

In the Vaikuntha planets all the residents are similar in form to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. thay all engage in devotional service to the Lord without desires for sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.14, text)

 

In Vaikunthaloka there is no occupation but the service of the Lord, and this service is not rendered with a purpose. Although every service has a particular result, the devotees never aspire for the fulfillment of their own desires; their desires are fulfilled by rendering transcendental loving service to the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.14, purport)

 

... Such transcendental birds stop their own singing simply to hear the glories of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.18, text)

 

This verse reveals the absolute nature of Vaikuntha. There is no difference between the birds there and the human residents... The special feature of Vaikunthaloka is that there is no question of sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.18, purp.)

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... although crowded by their consorts... cannot be stimulated to passion. (Bhag. 3.15.20, text)

 

The men are so absorbed in Krsna consciousness that the beautiful bodies of the women cannot attract them... the residents of Vaikuntha have a better standard of pleasure, so there is no need of sex pleasure. (Bhag. 3.15.20, purp.)

 

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

 

Desireless means... to be conscious of one's actual position and thus desire satisfaction only [of] the Supreme Lord. Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained this desirelessness as bhajaniya-parama-purusa-sukha-matra-sva-sukhatvam in his Sandarbha. This means that one should feel happy only by experiencing the happiness of the Supreme Lord. ... the spirit of akamah [desirelessness] is fully exhibited in the spiritual world. (Bhag. 2.3.10, purport).

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... are pure devotees. They consider glorification of the Lord more important than their own sense gratification. In the Vaikuntha planets there is no question of sense gratification... The inhabitants of Vaikuntha give first preference to the service of the Lord, not their own sense gratification. Serving the Lord in transcendental love yields such transcendental pleasure that, in comparison, sense gratification is counted as insignificant. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.)

 

In the spiritual world one has no desire other than to please the senses of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Cc. Madhya 19.155, purp.)

 

Everyone tried to satisfy Krsna–even the cows, the flowers, the fruits, and the water of Vrndavana. This is because everything in Vrndavana is spiritual; nothing is material. (Teachings of Queen Kunti, Chapter 25, Unalloyed Devotion)

 

The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana. He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana. [710217CC.GOR]

 

Rupa Goswami has given us the definition of pure devotional service as being anyabhilasita-sunyam, or without desires other than service to please Krsna. Jiva Goswami comments that the word used here is anyabhilasita which means "the habit of acting under extraneous desires which are semi-natural with the person involved." So uttama-bhakti means not only "absence of extraneous desires," but also the complete absence of the very nature from which such extraneous desires arise. Bhaktivinode Thakura corroborates this in his booklet "Bhakti-tattva-viveka " in his analysis of bhakti-abasa. Therein he states that in the [nitya-mukta ] liberated state "the jiva remains free from any material designation and hence within him there is no opportunity for the marginal characteristics of bhakti to exist."

 

Additionally, Visvanatha Cakravartipada in his Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu has defined the svarupa-laksana (intrinsic characteristic) of uttama-bhakti [as possessed by the residents of the spiritual world] as involving activities favorable to Sri Krsna [anukulyena krsnanusilanam ] and the tatastha-laksana (extrinsic characteristic) of uttama-bhakti is described in the first line of the same verse, anyabhilasita-sunyam: uttama bhakti is devoid of all desires other than to please Sri Krsna.

 

References to Pure devotion

 

Pure devotee means he has no other desire, no material desire. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero. 740325BG.BOM

 

Pure devotee of Krsna. They have no other desire. Anyabhilasita-sunyam. They have no other desire. 740926SB.CAL

 

What is that pure devotee? Anyabhilasita-sunyam... This is pure devotion: no other desire... 741019SB.MAY

 

Anyabhilasita-sunyam. Anya. Anya means other than Krsna's service. They have made all, everything zero. We don't want all these things. We simply want to serve Krsna. 720524SB.LA

 

What is that pure devotional service? anyabhilasita-sunyam... No other desire than to please Krsna.710727SB.NY

 

Who is a pure devotee? anyabhilasita-sunyam... Pure devotion is anukulyena krsnanu-silanam: simply take to such work and activities which will favorably dispose Krsna. 710410LE.BOM

 

Anya-bhilasa. Anya means "other than Krsna." Anyabhilasita-sunyam, being completely freed from any other desires 740111mw.la

 

6f- The residents of the spiritual world are all suddha-sattva/cinmaya-rasa

 

Which is directly under the protection of My spiritual energy of unadulterated bliss. That is the ultimate perfectional goal of the living entity. (Bhag. 3.27.28-29, text)

 

The Lord's abode, name, fame, entourage, etc., are of the same transcendental quality, and how this transcendental quality differs from the material world is explained herewith in this verse. (Bhag. 2.2.17, purp.)

 

Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world... They are in the spiritual form, ananda-cinmaya-rasa, enjoying always spiritual bliss in the association of Krsna. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

 

In Bhagavat-sandarbha text 75-78, Sri Jiva describes that the Lord's associates have transcendental bodies, possess qualities identical to those of the Lord, they are beyond the influence of time, are all suddha-sattva in nature, eternal, immutable... etc

 

The Lord and His devotees reside in the Vaikuntha planets, and they are of the same transcendental quality, namely, suddha-sattva, the mode of pure goodness. (Bhag. 3.15.15, purp.)

 

In the spiritual sky... suddha-sattva, which is a pure spiritual energy that sustains all the Vaikuntha planets with the full opulences of knowledge, wealth, prowess, etc. (Cc. Adi-lila 5.41)

 

Everything in the Goloka Vrndavana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ananda. Everyone there is of the same potency–ananda-cinmaya-rasa. The relationship between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His servitor is cinmaya-rasa. Krsna and His entourage and paraphernalia are of the same cinmaya potency. (Cc. Madhya-lila 19.154, purp.)

 

References describing Suddha-sattva

 

... description of the spiritual world... Suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means simply goodness, pure goodness, without any tinge of passion and ignorance... And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything. (661217CC.NY)

 

Spiritual happiness is suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means pure goodness. In the material world there are three stages: ignorance, passion and goodness. The goodness platform is very nice in the material world, but there is another platform, which is called suddha-sattva. Sattvam visuddham, visuddham vasudeva-sabditam. That is transcendental platform, and in that platform you can understand God. (690618SB.NV)

 

The total exhibition of these potencies [ sandhini, samvit and hladini ] is called visuddha-sattva. (Cc. Adi 4.62)

 

A careful analysis of the qualities of the residents of the spiritual world clearly indicates that they could never desire (or choose) to leave there. Further, we find innumerable references in sastra that Krsna is very favorably disposed to his pure devotees in the spiritual world, carefully protects them, is completely controlled by them and thus would certainly not desire nor make the arrangement that they could so easily fall from his perfect abode:

 

Devotees are Most Dear to the Lord

 

He comes under the control of His devotees. (Bhag. 10.9.19, text)

 

…certainly conquer Your Lordship. (Bhag. 10.14.3, text)

 

I am completely under the control of My devotees. (Bhag. 9.4.63, text)

 

The pure devotees . . . bring Me under their full control. (Bhag. 9.4.66, text)

 

The pure devotee is always within the core of My heart. (Bhag. 9.4.68, text)

 

How can I give up such devotees at any time? (Bhag. 9.4.65, text)

 

 

 

 

7- All examples of apparent falldowns of nitya-parsadas from the eternal lila of the Lord cited by proponents of the "fall theory" are not actual falldowns. Tulasi is not an ordinary living entity. It is mentioned many times in sastra and in Srila Prabhupada's purports (pertinent quotes included within this presentation) that the descent of the Lord's nitya-parsadas is for the purpose of His lila and is not in the same category as the appearance of the nitya-baddha living entities. Nor is the descent of Tulasi an example of a resident of the spiritual world becoming envious of Krsna. It is a pastime under the influence of yogamaya not maha-maya.

 

The example of Kala Krsnadasa is inappropriate since he was already in the material world. He is not mentioned in Gaura-Gannodesa-dipika as being Krsna parsada. Furthermore, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not allow him to fall away but protected him and kept him with Him for a year. Kala Krsnadasa was then given the shelter of Nityananda Prabhu and the nectarean service of informing Mother Saci and the residents of Navadvipa of the Lords South Indian tour in great detail.

 

Other so-called examples of falldown from spiritual positions, that have been cited, are in each case a special arrangement by the Lord—spiritually situated devotees were simply taking part in the Lord's transcendental lila. Citraketu did not fall into material life. It is clear from his prayers to the Lord (as Vrtrasura) that he was still very much an exalted devotee, that his bhakti was not covered, and commentators have explained that this [apparent falldown] was a special favor of the Lord for it increased his attachment to the Lord. Srila Prabhupada explains very clearly that Jaya and Vijaya's fall was a special arrangement of the Lord for His lila (Bhag. 3.16.26-27, purp.). Jiva Gosvami writes in Priti-sandarbha, 7, that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons, within they knew themselves and kept their spiritual form.

 

The fall of Bharata Maharaja was also special as he was protected by the Lord. Even in the body of a deer and later as an apparently incoherent Jada Bharat he remembered his past experiences and Krsna consciousness and perfected himself in the next life.

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in this regard, writes in his commentary on Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.33,

 

Even if they fall, they become more attached to You, just as when King Citraketu, Bharata Maharaja and King Indradyumna had a so-called fall down. In their fallen forms, such as Vrtrasura [previously King Citraketu], their love multiplied hundreds of times. Therefore, the fall of a devotee causes his love to increase.

 

In Srimad-Bhagavatam, text 10.2.33, it is stated that devotees do not fall like non-devotees for the Lord protects them. In the purport Srila Prabhupada writes,

 

In history there are many instances of devotees like Citraketu, Indradyumna and Maharaja Bharata who circumstantially fell down but were still protected. Maharaja Bharata, for example, because of his attachment to a deer, thought of the deer at the time of death, and therefore in his next life he became a deer (yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram ). Because of protection by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, the deer remembered his relationship with the Lord and next took birth in a good brahminical family and performed devotional service (sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate ). Similarly, Citraketu fell down and became a demon, Vrtrasura, but he too was protected.

 

8- The theory that one can become illusioned and fall introduces imperfection in the [infallible] spiritual world—this is Mayavada philosophy. It derides the concept of the Lord's perfect abode. It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency. [cf section 6f]

 

Srila Prabhupada states, "It is a most ludicrous argument to say that the Supreme Lord is overpowered by His own material energy." (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.) This is the conception of the impersonalists who think that a portion of the Lord's svarupa sakti, the Lord's most powerful sakti, can be covered by maya—that maya can cover brahman. Actually, the fall theory is worse than Mayavada for it suggests that not only brahman but Parabrahman may be covered by maya.

 

It is stated in Bhag. 2.5.13 that maya never appears in front of the Lord, therefore it is apparent that those who are situated on the front side of the Lord, the pure devotees, are never effected by maya. Are we to suggest that the Lord's internal potency is fallible and imperfect? Many references attest to the invincibility of the Lord's internal potency. That the superior energy of the Lord (svarupa-sakti ) can be overwhelmed by the inferior energy of the Lord (maya-sakti ) is not supported anywhere by sastra or by any acaryas. Yet, even disregarding the direct statement of the Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.10, that maya cannot enter the spiritual world, this theory [that all jivas in the material world come by falldown from the spiritual world] requires that the eternal associates of Krsna be influenced by maya while in the spiritual world, in order for them to become illusioned. For "the living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency." (Bhag. 3.7.5, purp.) Certainly it is considered an imperfection of the spiritual world that one firmly situated under the personal protection of the divine internal potency of the Lord and ecstatically engaged in the Lord's loving transcendental service in "the highest perfectional stage of living conditions," (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport), can fall from that to repeated hellish and degraded lives of birth and death.

 

Are we to accept that uncountable formerly self-realized living entities, billions is just an acre of countryside, all became envious and fell from the bliss of the Lord's personal association? Perhaps Vaikuntha should then be named Sakuntha, the abode of anxiety.

 

evam vadanti rajarsersayah ke ca nanvitahyat sva-vaco

virudhyetanunam te na smaranty uta

 

Such is the account given by some sages, O wise King, but those who speak in this illogical way are contradicting themselves, having forgotten their own previous statements. (Bhag. 10.77.30, text)

 

Conclusion:

 

It is our contention that the actual sastric truth regarding the jiva's original positon as presented herein and which is thoroughly supported by all our acaryas, has eluded many devotees due to their offenses to highly situated Vaisnavas. A chronology of events surrounding the siksa of Srila B. R. Sridhara Maharaja and the many offenses committed against His Holiness has been documented in the book Our Affectionate Guardians, available online at:

 

 

 

A sastric reference to the anartha called tattva-vibrahma is given by Bhaktivinode Thakura in his Bhajana-rahasya, wherein it is stated that one remains in illusion about different tattva's, such as jiva-tattva, guru-tattva, vaisnava-tattva, and rasa-tattva due to one's offenses etc. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his Madhurya Kadambini quotes a verse from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu regarding the offenses which lead to a material conception of spiritual topics. The effect of one's offenses is that one developes the same qualities which they criticize of another. We feel strongly that the misunderstanding of this subject belies a fundamental lack of comprehension of the essential substance of Krsna consciousness.

 

A lengthier presentation with many additional references is available on our Web Site:

 

 

The only subject not covered in this paper, which is however available in our longer Web presentation, is the topic of "Preaching is not always siddhanta:"

 

 

 

We suggest than an example of preaching something other than siddhanta (cf. Bg. 15.6: "Once going there, one never returns.") is shown in the following conversation, which directly contradicts Bg. 15.6:

 

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." (Conversation, Los Angeles, May 13, 1973)

 

 

 

 

 

Swami B B Vishnu

Sri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha

[Guest guest]

Jaiva Dharma ~ Chapter 15

Deliberation About the Proof of the Jiva's Spiritual Locus-Standi

 

[ Deliberations on the origin of the soul ]

 

by

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura

 

 

Translated from the original Bengali

by leading Bengali devotee scholars;

disciples of and under the direction of

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

 

Published by

Sri Gaudiya Math

Madras

 

 

This day Vrajanatha reached the Srivasangana rather a little early, when the devotees of Sri Godruma called at the Srivasangana just before evening in order to have a darsan of the evening service of aratrika (waving light and frankincense). Sri Premadas Paramahamsa Babaji, Vaishnavadasa, Advaitadasa, etc., took their seats in the arbor before the aratrika. Seeing the effusion of sentiment of these Vaishnavas of Sri Godruma, Vrajanatha thought within himself: "I shall have my object accomplished in association with them." Seeing his amiable face and devotional attitude they all blessed him. Within a short while, when they had left for Sri Godruma towards the south old Raghunatha Babaji Mahasaya noticed that tears were rolling down from Vrajanatha's eyes in an incessant flow. He had cherished a strange degree of affection and he asked him: "O darling, why are you shedding tears?"

 

Vrajanatha humbly submitted:

 

"O master, my mind has gone out of order as the result of your instructions and association; everything in our worldly life seems to be pith less and unsubstantial. I have grown impatient to seek protection at the Feet of Sri Gaura. Today a question has arisen in my mind, viz., who am I in reality and why have I come into this world?"

 

Babaji Mahasaya:

 

"You have glorified me with this question of yours. When the truly auspicious day arrives for a jiva, it is this question that he puts first of all. There will linger no more doubt in your mind when you will listen to the fifth shloka of the Dasamula and its meaning. Just as sparks come out of a blazing fire, so also from Sri Hari, the chit-Sun, come out the innumerable jivas, atomic chits. Though they are not different from Sri Hari(in respect of their chit constitution), yet the jives are ever separate from Him. The eternal difference between God and the jives is this, that God is the Entity due to Whose special Virtue the maya -potency is His ever-controlled servitor, He being by nature her Lord: whereas he, who is by nature capable of coming under the maya prakriti, even when free, is the jiva."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"The decision is excellent, no doubt. I am desirous of knowing its supporting authority from the Vedas; though the words of the Lord are as good as the Vedas, yet when they are substantiated by extracts from the Upanishads, people will be bound to admit them as conclusive."

 

Babaji:

 

"Several Vedic statements corroborate this truth; I am citing only a few of them; just listen. We have in the Brihadaranyaka: Just as small sparks come out from fire, so do all jivas come out of God " and "This entity (jiva) has two places, viz., this (material) region and the other (chit) region; there is a third place border tatastha region forming the juncture of the two; staying at that place of the juncture, he sees both the regions, this one and the other one." Herein has been stated the border characteristic of the jiva-potency. This Br.up says again: "just as a big fish in a river at one time visits its Eastern bank, at another the Western one so also does the jiva move to both the sides, viz., that of dream (nescience) and the other of wakefulness (sentience)."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"What is the meaning of 'tatastha' approved by the Vedanta philosophy?"

 

Babaji:

 

"The line between the water of a river and the land on the bank is called the ' tata'. The land is contiguous to the water; where is then the 'tata'? The 'tata' is only like a thread discriminating the land from the water. The 'tata' is a very fine line of distinction which is not discernible with the gross eyes. If the chit world is compared to water and the mayika or material world to land, then the 'tata' is the fine line dividing the one from the other; the place of the jiva-potency is that line of juncture between the two worlds. Just as there are glowing atoms in the sun-rays, so also are the jivas; they may have a vision of the chit world on the one side and on the other this world as built by maya. The chit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are there the innumerable minute jivas. The jivas emanate from the tatastha shakti (border-potency) of Sri Krishna; so is the nature too tatastha (border-potency) of Sri Krishna."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

Of what sort is that 'tatastha' nature?"

 

Babaji:

 

"In it vision can be had of both the sides from the midway position between the two worlds. The capability of coming under the control of both the potencies (chit and mayika) is the tatastha nature. The 'tata' (line of demarcation) can come into the river being dug out by the force of water; again when the land is hardened, the 'tata' becomes land. If a jiva turns his vision towards Sri Krishna, he becomes confirmed within Krishna-shakti (i.e., chit) but when he turns towards maya and turns away from Krishna (i.e. becomes apathetic towards Him), he falls into maya's snare to be fastened in it. This nature is 'tatastha'.

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"Has maya anything to do with the jiva's constitution?"

 

Babaji:

 

"No, the jiva is constituted of chit material; being exceedingly atomic he is domitable by maya for want of the chit strength. In his constitution there is no trace of maya."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"I heard from my professor that Chit Brahman being enveloped by maya has become the jiva; just as the unlimited sky becomes Ghakasa i.e., the sky of the pot when covered in it, so also the jiva that is Brahman by nature has become such being covered by maya. What does this mean?"

 

Babaji:

 

"This is only mayavada. How can maya touch Brahman? If you say that Brahman has no potency, then how can there be His proximity to maya? When the potency of maya is non-existent? Brahman cannot undergo such a miserable condition under the cover of maya. If you keep the para shakti (essential potency) of Brahman awake, then how can maya, who is an insignificant potency, defeat the chit potency to create jiva out of Brahman? Brahman is infinite: how can He again be partitioned into portions as the great sky into skies in pots? maya's action on Brahman cannot be admitted. Maya has no authority over the creation of jivas; though the jiva is en atom, yet he is superior to maya. "

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"Some time before, a professor said that the jiva is the reflection of Brahman. Just as the sun is reflected on water, so is Brahman reflected on maya to become the jiva. What does this too, mean?"

 

Babaji:

 

"This, too, is mayavada. Brahman has no limit; an unlimited thing cannot be reflected. The Vedas do not approve of the confinement of Brahman within bounds. The theory of reflection is very abominable."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"On another occasion a world conqueror sannyasi said that the jiva is not a real entity; the conceit as jiva has arisen out of illusion; when illusion goes off, there remains only one undivided Brahman. What does this ,too, mean?"

 

Babaji:

 

"This, to, is mayavada and is without foundation. According to the statement in the Sruti 'ekamev advitiyam what more can be had than Brahman? When them is nothing else than Brahman where from does the illusion come? And whose is this illusion? If you say that it of Brahman, then you make Brahman insignificant and keep Him not as Brahman. If a separate existence is admitted of the name of 'illusion', then the truth of 'advaya-jnana' is clashed with."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"A scholarly Brahmana of this Navadvipa established that there is no jiva but only one Brahman who in his dream creates the weal and woe; when his dream is over, he is Brahman. What type of statement is this?"

 

Babaji:

 

"This, too is mayavada. Transformation from the state of Brahman to that of jiva and the dream - how can all these be substantiated? Citing examples of the conception of silver in a pearl or that of a rope appearing as a snake the mayavadin cannot maintain advaya-jnana, these webs of tricks have been prepared for enchanting and fascinating the people."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"It must be admitted that in the creation of the jiva soul maya has nothing to do; I do also understand that maya can exercise her power over the jiva." Now my question is whether the chit-potency has framed the jiva with the tatastha (border) natural?"

 

Babaji:

 

"No, the chit-potency is Krishna's plenary potency; Whatever she produces is eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the chit-shakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit. Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the shakti He applies.

 

When established in His essential chit-shakti He reveals His essential Nature as Sri Krishna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. When he desired to have His adherent attendance ' nitya parshada' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana Vaikuntha, etc. He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds. He reveals the three Forms of Vishnu, viz., Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. At Vraja He reveals His own Nature as Krishna with chit in fullness; as Baladeva, He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service of Himself as Sri Krishna. Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-shakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha shakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's Grace they get shelter under the hladini (bliss-giving) shakti they are liable to be overcome by maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-shakti that begets the jivas, and not the chit-shakti."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"I have already heard that the chit-world is eternal and so are also jivas. How are, then, the growth, creation and revelation of eternal things possible? If they are revealed at some time and were unrevealed previously, how, then can their eternity be possible?"

 

Babaji:

 

"The time and space as you feel in the material world are different from the time and space of the chit world. The time of the mundane world is divided into three periods, past, present and future; whereas the time in the chit-world is ever present as undivided. All the events relating to chit are conceived of as present. Whatever we describe is under the jurisdiction of material time and space; so while we say - ' the jivas were created', ' the jivas then were fastened by maya', 'the chit-world was revealed', 'there is no function of maya in the constitution of jivas, but that of chit,- then there is the influence of material time over our statement; the sort of description is inevitable in this fastened condition of ours. For this reason, in all our descriptions relating to jivas and chit, we cannot get rid of the influence of the mundane time,- the past, the present and the future come of themselves into them. While having a conception of the inner meaning of such descriptions, the truly discriminating judges conceive of the application of the ever present time.

 

My darling, you should be very cautious while deliberating over these things and feel the presence of chit, having thrown off the unavoidable detestableness of words. All the Vaishnavas say that the jiva souls have been fastened by maya for the forgetfulness of their own nature, but they all know that though the jivas are eternal entities, they are of two kinds, viz. eternally fastened and eternally free. Such statements are due to the human intelligence being subject to errors and omissions. But a sedate person forms a conception of the transcendental truth by means of chit-samadhi. Our statements are material, whatever we speak about is interspersed with the dirt of words, but you will feel what the truth is. Argumentations have no footing here, for it is vain to apply them to inscrutable truths. I know that you will not be able to realize this truth in a moment. The more you culture about chit affairs the more will be evident the difference of chit from matter. Your body is material, all the functions of the body are material, but in reality, you are not matter, you are atomic chit (sentiment) entity. The more you know about yourself, the more will you feel your essential nature to be superior to the material world. You will not be benefited, if only, I tell you this or you hear it from me. The more you rouse up your chit character by means of the culture of Harinama, the better will you get a conception of the chit world. The speech and the mind, both have their origin relating to matter; they cannot touch the chit affairs by great exertions. The Sruti said: "From whom (Brahman) words recede back with the mind without getting Him." I advise you not to ask the decision about this of any one; feel it within yourself. I only give you the hint."

 

Vrajanatha: "

 

If the jiva is the atomic ray of the chit (sentient) sun like the sparks of the blazing fire, what is then the function of the jiva-shakti?'

 

Babaji:

 

"Krishna is self-effulgent like the blazing fire or the sun, within the range of the chit-Sun, everything is full chit concern; outside it, the rays radiate far and wide. A pencil is a molecule of the svarupa-shakti, and the rays within it are its atoms; and the jivas are such atoms. The svarupa-shakti displays the region within the orb of the Sun; the function of the region outside the orb is that of the jiva-shakti which is the atomic part of the chit-shakti. So only the jiva-shakti functions concerning the jivas. According to the Sruti, which says His (God's) para ( supreme) shakti is of different sorts, the para-shakti which is the chit-shakti, coming of its own regions as jiva-shakti is ever displaying the eternal jiva like the rays of the Sun in the border region between the chit region and the maya's region."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"The blazing fire is material, the sun too, is material; the sparks, too are material. Why are these material things employed as examples in the case of chit-tattva (truth relating to chit)?"

 

Babaji:

 

"I have already told you that whenever we have to speak about chit affairs with words that are material, the dirt of matter must be there; so it is under compulsion that such examples have got to be cited. As there is no other way, we have to explain chit things by using the words ' fire' ' sun ' etc. In reality, Krishna is quite different from and far superior to the sun; the region o' chit is surpassingly superior to the brilliant solar orb; the pencil of the sun and its minute rays are extremely inferior to Krishna's pencil and rays. Even so, those examples are used considering only the points of similarity, the examples show the points only partially and do not apply to all cases. The functions of the sun and the sun-rays are to reveal their own beauty and other things, and only these too indicate the self-revealing character and the character of revealing others with reference to the chit-tattva; but the power of ignition and the materiality of the sun are not applicable as examples to chit affairs. When we say that milk is like water, we mean only the liquidity of milk; otherwise can the milk, which has in it all the characteristics of water, be milk proper? Therefore examples explain only the character of a particular side of things, not that of all the sides."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"How is it possible that the pencil of the chit-sun and the atomic rays there within, though not separate from the sun, are yet ever different?"

 

Babaji:

 

"In the material world when one thing comes out of another, it either becomes totally severed from that, or remains adhered to that, as it is the property of matter. When an egg comes out of the mother-bird, it remains separate from her and no more keeps within her. The nails and hair on the body of a man though grown out of it keep together with him till they are clipped off. In chit affairs there is some specialty. In respect of whatever have come out from the chit sun, all are simultaneously both distinct from Him and also non-distinct. Just as the solar pencil and the rays coming out from the sun remain the same, so also the pencil from Krishna, viz., jiva-shakti and the atomic rays viz., the jivas, coming out from Krishna-sun, ever remain non-separate from Him; again even being non-separate, different jivas, getting different particles of independent volition, ever keep separate from Krishna.

 

Therefore the truth of jivas being both non-distinct and distinct from Krishna is an eternally accomplished fact. This is the special feature of chit affairs. The savants cite only a partial example from matter. It is thus; there is a big lump of gold; a bangle is made of a bit out of it; the bangle is non-distinct from the lump of gold, in respect of its being gold but it is distinct from the lump of gold, in respect of its being the bangle and not the lump. This example does not apply in all respects; but it functions in a particular way; in respect of being both chit, the chit-sun and the chit jiva are non distinct, but in respect of their being respectively the Plenary chit and the atomic chit, there is distinction between them according to circumstances. The example of ghatakasa (sky scape in the pitcher) and mahakasa (fermamental sky) is quite inapplicable to the chit-tattva.

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"If chit (sentiment) object and mundane matter are generically different from each other, then how can either be the proper example of the other?"

 

Babaji:

 

"There is no such distinction of classes between chit and jada (mundane) matter, as there are different classes in mundane matter, which the followers of the Nyaya-system of Philosophy call Nitya (permanent). I have already said that it is only chit which is the real thing and jada is its uikara (vitiated state). There are many similarities between a pure thing and its vitiation. The vitiated thing becomes different from the pure thing; yet the similarity lingers in many respects. Ice being a vitiated form of water becomes a different thing from water, but similarity still exists in respect of the properties like coldness, etc. though such similarity does not exist between the cold and the hot water; but they are similar regarding their common property of liquidity. Thus in a vitiated thing there remains some common property or another, of the pure thing. So though the mundane world is the vitiation of the chit world, a chit subject may be deliberated on with the help of an example from a mundane matter, utilizing the similarity of a chit property available in such matter. Again adopting the principle of the vision of the Arundhati star (a small star in the group of the pleiads in the constellation of Taurus, visible with fine discernment by ascertaining its position with the gross material, vision), - the subtle properties of a chit matter are conceived with the deliberation of the crude and perverted matter of the mundane world. Sri Krishna's lila is totally transcendental or supra-mundane; there is no stench of mundane matter in it. The sports of Vraja as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam are all transcendental; and when the affairs described therein are read among a group of men, they produce effect upon them according to their respective competence; the members of the audience, who are entirely attached to mundane matter, hear about the activities of the ordinary dramatic hero and heroine with a relish of rhetorical embellishment of material subjects, those of an intermediate competence adopt the principle of the vision of the Arundhati star to see the sportiveness of sentience in the proximity of material descriptions; whereas those of the superior competence dive in the pure relishable sentiment of the sportiveness of sentience beyond the scope of mundane matter. What other means are there for the proper training of jivas than the application of those principles? How can any nice resort be possible for the fettered jivas, in which the power of speech does not work and the mental power admits defeat? No means is to be found except some examples with good similarities and the principle of visualizing the star Arundhati. In mundane matters only will be noticed either distinction or non-distinction, but that is not the case with the Supreme entity. Inscrutable simultaneous distinction and non-distinction must be admitted between Krishna and His jiva-potency.''

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"Wherein lies the distinction between Supreme God and jiva souls?"

 

Babaji:

 

"At first I shall explain the eternal non-distinction and show the eternal distinction thereafter. God is, in His Nature, Sentience, Enjoyer, Thinker, Self-manifest, Manifestor of others, Soul acting at pleasure. The jiva has got all these characteristics. Being the Possessor of Plenary Potency, God has these properties to the utmost extent; whereas the jiva being the possessor of only atomic potency, these properties are present in him to a minute extent. Though there is a distinction regarding the essential nature and character, regarding the possession of those properties yet there is a want of distinction between God and jiva. Being the possessor of His own potency to the fullest extent, God is the Master of Svarupa shakti (natural potency), jiva-shakti and maya-shakti; potency is His servitor under control, He is the Master of potency, His potency acts at His will - this is the essential Nature of God. Though the jiva has all the properties of God in minute jots, he is subject to maya. The word ' maya's used in the Dasamula (vice its fifth shloka)- in the beginning of this chapter) does not denote only jada (mundane) maya, here it means Svarupa-shakti. From its derivation, viz., by which measurement is made, maya is the name of that shakti which makes Krishna known in the chit world, jiva-world and mundane world, as such, maya here denotes Svarupa-shakti and not jada-shakti. Krishna is the Master of maya, whereas the jiva is under her control.

 

So the Svetasvara Upanishad has said thus. "From all this diversity (which the Veda describes) the Master of maya creates the universe and the other (viz. jiva) is confined in it by maya. Know maya as His Prakriti (Nature) and the Master of maya is Supreme God. All this universe is pervaded by His shakti ". In this sentence of the Veda, the word. Mayee (Master of maya) denotes Krishna, the Controller of maya, Prakriti means plenary potency. These attributes as adored by all and the Nature are the special properties of God; they are not present in the jiva, even when liberated, he cannot get these attributes. The Brahma-Sutra says: "The free jiva souls are able to perform all things excepting the affairs of the universe,-viz., its creation, sustenance, restraint, etc." In it has been admitted that there is eternal distinction between God and the jiva. This eternal distinction is not imaginary, but eternally true, this distinction will not come to an end in any stage. On this account, just know it to be a fundamental statement that ' the jiva is the eternal servant to Krishna."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"If the eternal bheda (distinction) is the accomplished fact, then how can the abheda (non-distinction) be admitted? Shall we then have to admit that there is a stage called nirvana (annihilation)?"

 

Babaji:

 

"No, my darling, that is not the case, in no stage is the jiva non-different from (i.e., identical with) God."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"Then why have you stated the doctrine of achintya-bheda-bheda inscrutable simultaneous distinction and non-distinction?"

 

Babaji:

 

"With regard to chit-dharma (sentient character) there is eternal abheda between Krishna and the jiva, but in svarupa (essential nature) there is eternal bheda. In spite of the eternal abheda, the conception of the bheda is eternal. Though the abheda svarupa is an accomplished fact, yet there is not any indication there of relating to any state. Whenever there is an indication according to a particular stage, the manifestation of the eternal bheda is the stronger. For example, if a house is simultaneously said to be ' without Devadatta and with Devadatta,' then the eternal indication of its being with Devadatta, will ever continue, even though according to some consideration it may be without Devadatta'. I shall cite another example from the mundane world,- the sky is a mundane matter, even if there be a receptacle of the sky, too, in spite of that receptacle, as there is the indication of the sky alone, so the indication of the nitya (eternal) bheda that is there in the abheda entity, is the only indication of the thing."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"Then, please, tell me a little more clearly about the eternal nature of the jiva."

 

Babaji:

 

"The jiva is anu-chaitanya (atomic sentience), endowed with the attribute of jnana (consciousness), predicable by the term 'aham' (ego), enjoyer, thinker and comprehender. The jiva has his eternal nature; that nature is astral. Just as in the gross body, the hands, legs, eyes, nose, ears etc., being properly arranged, have manifested the crude nature; so the atomic sentient body, perfect in every feature, has manifested the atomic sentient nature; and that is the jiva's eternal nature. When he is fettered by maya, his natural body becomes covered with two phenomenal bodies, the one is called linga-sarira (subtle body), and the other the gross body. The subtle body is a disguise over the body of the atomic sentient nature; that subtle body is unavoidable from the time that the jiva is fettered to the time that he is emancipated. At the time of taking other births only the gross physical bodies undergo changes, but not the subtle body. The subtle body (of a bounder soul) is only one; at the time of changing a gross body, it takes away with it all the desires regarding karma made by it before accepting the subsequent body. The nature of a jiva who has got a new body is formed according to the instinct transmitted from the previous birth grown out of the desires thereof. And he gets his caste according to that nature. Karma or action ensues according to the varnashrama (caste and stage of life), and after death he again gets a similar course. The first cover for the eternal nature is the subtle body ( or mind) and the second cover is the gross (physical body)."

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"What is the difference between the nitya sarira (eternal body) and the linga-sarira ( subtle body)?"

 

Babaji:

 

"The eternal body is of atomic chit (sentience), blemishless and really predicable by aham (ego). The subtle body is constituted of the three vitiations, viz. manah (mind), buddhi (intellect) and ahamkara ( egotism).

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"Are the mind, intellect and egotism of the mundane nature? If they are so termed how can their sentient functions be performed?"

 

Babaji:

 

"Just look into the dictum of the Gita. "God with His chit-shakti (sentient potency) has two prakritis (shaktis). viz. para (superior) and apara (inferior); here the para-prakriti has been known as jiva-shakti and the apara-prakriti as jada (mundane material) or maya-shakti. The jiva-shakti is chitkana (atomic sentience) and, for this reason, it is called para or superior. maya shakti is jada and as such it is celled apara. The jiva is different from the inferior potency, which has in it eight coarse things viz., the five maha-bhutas (primary elements) and manah (mind) buddhi (intellect) and ahamkara (egotism). The last three are within jada prakriti and are therefore mundane matters; there is some appearance of jnana (sentience) in them; but it is not chit by nature, but of mundane matter. The mind places the affair of the knowledge of sensual objects on the images that it takes from mundane matter; this affair has its root in mundane matter and not in chit matter. The faculty that discriminates between good and bad relying on that knowledge is known as buddhi (intellect), that, too, has its root in mundane matter. And the egotism, too, arising out of the acceptance of that knowledge has mundane matter at its root and not the chit. These three, combined together, manifest a second nature of the jiva, related to mundane matter. The egotism of the subtle body of that nature of the jiva overcome with mundanity becomes strong enough to cover the egotism of the eternal nature. The egotism in the eternal nature connected with the chit-sun is eternal. In the stage of liberation, that egotism appears again. So long as the eternal body is almost hidden under the subtle body, the conceit of the connection with mundane matter remains strong, and consequently the conceit of connection with chit is almost extinct. The subtle body is too fine and therefore the gross body, covering it, makes it act. When the gross body covers the subtle body, then the egotism of the conceit of color and class of the gross body becomes the prevailing factor. Though the mind, intellect and egotism are of mundane nature, yet they have the conceit of knowledge, being the vitiated nature of the function of atma (soul).

 

Vrajanatha:

 

"Now I have understood that the eternal nature of the jiva is atomic chit and that in that nature there is elegance of the limbs made of atomic chit; when it is bound down (by maya), that elegance is covered by the subtle body; and then with the cover of the gross body, the nature of the jiva is subjected to much mundane vitiation. Now I beg to submit my question whether the jiva is entirely free from defects in the liberated state"

 

Babaji:

 

"Though the atomic chit is free from defect, it is imperfect, inasmuch as being extremely atomic, it is too weak. Under these circumstances, only this defect is seen in it, that the nature is capable of being almost extinct. The Srimad Bhagavatam has said, "O Lotus-eyed Lord, wisdom of one cannot be free from contamination without unalloyed devotion to Thee. Those treading the path of jnana or following the path of inductive process, devoid of an atom of devotion to They may think themselves liberated; on the contrary failing to adore Thy Lotus Feet, their minds ever remain impure although with great exertion and difficult efforts they might have attained a high stage nay. almost near liberation, but hurled down to the mundane plane because they have neglected to take recourse to Thy Divine Lotus Feet" As such, however ameliorated may a liberated jiva be the imperfection of his constitution will ever accompany him and this is the truth about jivas. It is for this reason that the Veda has said that "God is the Controller of maya, whereas the jiva is subject to the control of maya" being the tatastha shakti."

[Guest guest]

"Our Original Position" errata

 

The following is an informal gathering of objections, faults and other irregularities found by another party in "Our Original Position," the official published position on the "Origin of the Jiva" issue. The anonomous author of these points hoped to incorporate them into a book eliminating further doubt in this matter, but did not do so. We simply offer them as seeds for further thought. They do not necessarily represent our opinion.

 

Chapter One

 

·Read: "The authors insist..." and "And yet,..." It is obvious from these two statements that they are admitting that Shrila Jiva Goswami said these things and their only refutation is, 'but Prabhupada translated it as since time immemorial'... and that is exactly our point. (1) Shrila Jiva Goswami (SJG) did say that the soul is eternally conditioned, and (2) Shrila Prabhupada translates it as 'time immemorial' exactly because the concept of eternal bondage was too difficult for a general audience, who had little or no background in Vedic thought, to understand.

 

·See pgs 74-75 in "In Vaikuntha" It is explaining four type of entities, not the meaning of four words in general, thus all of the statements of "Our Original Position" (OOP's) authors trying to prove that this is not the way the words are defined are off the mark. Also . . .

 

*Very important" See pg. 27 of "OOP". Notice in the Sanskrit that almost every time the word 'anadi' is mentioned in reference to the Lord in the Upanishadic quotations, it is coupled with/qualified by 'ananta' or a synonym for ananta (having a beginning but no end"). Therefore, Upanishads themselves are assuming that the words anadi and ananta commonly indicate: (1) having no beginning but an end and (2) having a beginning but no end respectively. Or why else would they put both of them together when talking about the Lord? They want to be sure that there is no mistake that the Lord has no beginning and no end. If both of them were synonyms for nitya (as claimed by the author of OOP) why employ the vain repitition of using both of them? Why should either word at all exist or be used in shastra...it would only be a redundency? Therefore, the Upanishads themselves are giving the answer to this question of definition. Both anadi and ananta come under the meaning of nitya. They are both included in nitya, and thus can sometimes be used in place of nitya (as in the first verse of Brahma Samhita...no one will think that the use of the word anadi there means that Krishna has no beginning but can come to an end. There, it is indicating His eternality). But still, each of these two also holds it's own particular meaning which makes them different from each other, and thus the handling of them in the quotations from Upanishads. This is called naya of referring to the whole by pointing out one of its parts amsha-anshi-nyaya. Just as you point to the water and say, 'This is the ocean,' but actually you are only pointing to a small part of the ocean. So, the part is contained withing the whole, and can be used to refer to the whole, but at the same time, it is not identical with the whole. Anadi is used in the Brahma Samhita verse because there Lord Brahma is juxtaposing anadir (He who has no beginning" with adir (He is the origin of everything). In this way, Lord Brahma stresses the Lord's beginninglessness, and gives contextual strength to the statement that He is the beginning of everything. Likewise, shastras will use ananta when they want to emphasise the Lord's endlessness. When shastra wants to be certain that both aspects of the Lord are clearly understood, they they use both of them together, as in the Upanishadic statements, and when they want to speak of the Lors's infinite nature in general terms, they will use nitya. The should be clearly understood, as it is a soft spot for several of the authors key, long winding, convoluted arguments.

 

When the author insists that only sat and asat exist, which he contradicts shortly thereafter, it should also be understood that nitya and ananta both cme under sat (having existence with no end", and anitya and anadi both fall under (having existence which comes to an end).

 

 

 

Chapter 2

 

Part 1: Analysis of Vedanta Sutra 2.1.34-37

 

Untangling the author's errors in this section and Chapter 3 is a little complex and requires substantial explanation.

 

First a brief on the structure of Vedanta Sutra:

 

·It is composed of four books, called Adhyayas. Each of those is broken down into four sections called Padas. Each of those has a variable number of Adhikaranas, or sections. each section contains a variable number of verses.

 

·Each Adhikarana has to have Sangati, or agreement with the whole Vedanta Sutra (VS), with its Adhyaya, with its Pada and with the Adhikaranas immediately before and after it.

 

What is under discussion in this section of VS:

 

· 2.1.34,35 comprise Adhikarana Ten. This section is an answer to an implicit question, following from the previous Adhikarana (Nine), which stated that : The Lord has no fruitive motive in creating the world, but does it only for the sake of lila. The question that this raises is: Is part of the Lord's lila to cause the jivas to suffer? I.e., because lila is only for enjoyment, He must be enjoying their suffering/ Adhikarna Ten answers this by saying in 2.1.34: "No, the Lord dispenses karmic reactions to the iving entities only on the basis of the previous actions, and not whimsically. Thus there is no defect on His part." Then, 1.2.35: "If if is asked, 'but every jiva starts off equally at the time of creation, so what else but the Lord's favor to some and disfavor to others could cause the differences we see?' It is replied that at the beginning of creation, they are continuing where they left off in the previous creation. Because this process is anadi, there was never a time when it can be said that all living entities started from an equal position, yet, all are always receiving nothing but the reaction of their previous karma, and thus there is no defect in the Lord's dealing with them."

 

2.1.35 is saying that the karma of the living entity is beginningless. Therefore his condidioning is also necessarily beginningless. This is what is explained in "In Vaikuntha..." pages 37,38.

 

· 2.1.36,37 comprise Adhikarana Eleven. This is an answer to an implicit question from Adhikarana Ten, which says: "But, it is seen that the Lord shows favor to His devotee, so how can you say there is no partiality on His side? The reply is: "We accept that He shows special favor to His devotees. It would be a defect if He did "not" reciprocate with them, because that would go against his generous nature. It can also be said that His reciprocating with them is also equal dealings. But ultimately, it is partiality, because when He reciprocates with His devotees, He gives in greater measure than He receives. But it should also be understood that when He reciprocates with them, He does not do any dis-favor to other living entities in the process. Thus, there is no defect on His part from any angle."

 

Adhikarana Ten (2.1.34,35) is talking about the relation of Paramatma to the jiva souls in the material world (See OOP pg 14) Adhikarana Eleven (2.1.36,37) is talking about the relationship of Bhagavan to His devotees in the material world (This is clear from the discussion of partiality, which Paramatma does not involve in, and from the use of the word "bhakta-vatsala" in SBV's commentary on 2.1.36, see footnote 15, on OOP pg 16 and pg 257 of "In Vaikuntha..."). In his commentary, the primary OOP author tries to muddle these two different topics together and make them one . . . as follows: His commentary does not have agreement or Sangati with the Adhyaya Pada or the previous and following Adhikaranas:

 

· In his commentary, the author of OOP tries to say something to this effect:

 

"In analyzing 2.1.34-37 (both Adhikaranas Ten and Eleven), my intention is to prove that the word 'karma,' as discussed in these verses, refers to the activities of both conditioned and non-conditioned souls, both in the material and spiritual worlds. Not just to the activities of conditioned souls. Thus, the interpretation found in "In Vaikuntha" is wrong. They interpret 2.1.35 to say that because the karma of the living entities is beginningless, his conditioning is also beginningless. I disagree, because according to my analysis, the beginningless activities of the living entities and the Lord's beginningless reciprocation with them is not necessarily restricted to the material world. Therefore, the thing here which is truly beginningless, and which is under discusssion by Vedanta Sutra, is the Lord's reciprocation with ALL living entities according to their actions, and not just the state of the conditioned living entities."

 

His reasoning is defective for the following reasons:

 

1- The topic under discussion in both this Adhyaya and Pada is the Lord's relationship to the material creation (See "OOP" pg 10, Sutra 2.1.35), thus Adhikaranas Ten and Eleven discussed here (2.1.34-37) must all have Sangati with that topic. i.e., the context of discussion for all of these verses is the material world.

 

2- He takes 2.1.34-2.1.37 as though they all four belong to the same Adhikarana, but they do not. 2.1.34, 35 form Adhikarana Ten, and 2.1.36,37 form Adhikarana Eleven. Both have different topics.

 

3. Adhikarana Ten is clearly talking about the conditioned living entities. (See OOP's own translation of the commentary to 2.1.35, pg 14). The use of the words karma, ksetra-jna (knower of the field of material activities) and Visnu (Whose pastimes are associated with the material world), as well as the whole context these words are found in, are clearly saying that 'karma' here is material activity of the conditioned souls. Indeed, the author of OOP admits it himself on this same page.

 

4. The author goes on to say that he will prove that the word 'karma' as used in SBV's commentary on pg. 14 also refers to the activities of liberated souls, here and in the spiritual world. The defect in that is that he waits until 2.1.36,37 for that, and that is a separate Adhikarana, where a different topic is under discussion. SBV himself ends the discussion of the material conditioned nature of the living entities in Adhikarana Ten, 2.1.35 commentary with the words "[The accusarion of] inequality, etc., in Brahman is refuted." He then sets up the topic for discussion in Adhikarana Eleven with : "That [inequality] in the form of taking the devotee's side is now [however] accepted..." Thus, the use of the word anadi in 2.1.35 is being restricted by SBV himself to Adhikarana Ten. It is also very significant that nowhere in sutras 2.1.36,37 or in SBV's commentary on them is the word anadi used.

 

· The gist of all of this is: The author of OOP is trying to say that karma, in 2.1.35, refers to the activities of the liverated souls as well, and the Lord's reciprocation with those activities. Thus, when it is said, "eternal," what is being spoken of is not the karma of the living entities, but the activity (and reciprocation from the Lord) of 'all' devotees when they descend to the material world from the spiritual world. And even in the spiritual world, we cannot deny that the Lord protects His devotees."

 

Part 2: Analysis of Vedanta Sutra 4.4.1 and 4.4.3

 

· Basically, the author os OOP is trying to prove in this section that svarupa refers to a spiritual form, rasa, etc, in these sections. This is not correct. What is being referred to is the sat, cit, ananda nature of the jiva only. His svarupa as pure consciousness. This is evident from pg 23.24, beginning: "And so it is logical to say..."

 

 

 

General Defects in Chapters 3 and 4

 

These chapters are very similar. First we will mention the basic defects in them, then specific ones in each chapter.

 

The OOP author's main endeavor in these chapters is to discount what he feels is problematic with the treatment of the words: anadi, ananta, nitya and anitya in "In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall." His opinion is that the authors of "In Vaikuntha" have erroneously defined these words, (esp, the word usage of the word anadi in reference to the beginningless conditioning of the jiva soul) and so in these Chapters the authors atttempts to analyze the usage of these words in various shastras (esp. anadi) to prove that their meaning is different than that which he sees presented in "In Vaikuntha."

 

There are two overwhelming defects in his endeavor:

 

1) The authors of "In Vaikuntha..." are not trying to provide general definitions for these four words. they are talking about four different types of activities, and these words are often used to describe them in shastra.

 

2) The author of "OOP" has misconstrued the usage of these words in the passages from shastra that he quotes, and has naturally derived inaccurate definitions from them.

 

In relation to the first point, we quote from "In Vaikuntha...":

 

"The conclusion is that there are four types of activities or objects, nitya, anitya, anadi, and ananta. Nitya are those which have no geginning and no end, like Vaikuntha planets or Lord Krsna; anitya are those which have a beginning and end, such as the body, anadi are those which have no beginning but have an end, such as the material conditioning of the jiva; and ananta are those which have a beginning but no end, such as the liberation of a jiva from the material world... All objects, qualities, and activities can be grouped into these four classes and this is how Vedic philosophers have used these words."

 

The discussion related to these four words occurs in the middle of a chapter where Shrila Jiva Goswami's usage of the term anadi in reference to the eternal conditioning of the living entities is being discussed. Neither Shrila Jiva Goswami, nor the authors of "In Vaikuntha..." are interested in writing a dictionary or giving a general dictionary definition of the word anadi while talking about the conditioned living entities. The authors are showing how Shrila Jiva Goswami clearly says that the conditioning of the living entities has no beginning, but can come to an end by the Lord's mercy. And this state, or type of activity, SJG calls anadi. The author of "OOP" never attempts to address this point in context, and that alone renders all of his discussion in the next several chapters mute.

 

We do no understand why the author of "OOP" has gone to so much trouble to demonstrate the usage of the word in so many shastras, only to establish his own opinion about it, but never even discusses the context that this word comes up in "In Vaikuntha..." He certainly did not admit the fact that this is Shrila Jiva Goswami's usage of the word anadi, let alone dare to attempt to refute Shrila Jiva Goswami.

 

Indeed, in Chapter 9 of "OOP" the author purports at the very beginning that he will show the statements of SJG to support the fall-vada position...but where??!! He never even mentions SJG's name in the chapter!

 

We have noticed this as being a general trend in the author's work. By ignoring the fact that Shrila Jiva Goswami's statements, which he never even addresses, are the reason "In Vaikuntha..." was written. The author of "OOP" writes under the implicit assumption that Shri Satya Narayana dasa and Shri Kundali dasa are inventing these interpretations, or are somehow trying to screw them out of shastric statements, to suit some twisted purpose of their own. He then charges in on his white horse; chastising the demons while simultaneously protecting the conclusions of shastra-tiptoeing right over Shrila Jiva Goswami's head in the process. This methodology is dishonest. If he wants to contest that the jiva souls have never fallen from the spiritual world, and that the usage of the word anadi in various shastric passages and commentaries say this, then he should take it up with the person who made the statement: Shrila Jiva Goswami. But he never one time, in all of his extravagant analysis's in this book, discusses Shrila Jiva Goswami's statements on the subject. Instead, he prefers to quote from here and there in Chapter 6, he even quotes from Goswami Giridhara Lala, a disciple of Vallabha Bhatta, who is an offender at the lotus feet of Shrila Jiva Goswami. The following quotation is from Appendix Two of Tattva Sandarbha, translated by Shri Satya Narayana dasa and Shri Kundali dasa:

 

"Not only did the author [Giridhari Lal Goswami] launch a systematic attempt to refute Shrila Jiva Goswami, but he depicted him as an acarya-drohi (one who rebels against previous acaryas). Lal further claimed that Shri Jiva Goswami was not even a devotee, what to speak of a recipient of Lord Krsna's mercy. He wrote, "Jiva Goswami is unable to understand the learned opinion of Shri Vallachacarya."

 

It is odd that the author of "OOP" should quote from such a person, even calling him a Vaishnava. He uses Lal's statements to support his own opinion that in relation to the jiva soul's bondage, the term anadi means cirantanam, or "existing since ancient times," but not beginningless. This is especially true in view of the author of "OOP's" pointing out so heartily Vallabha Bhatta's misinterpretation of Shrimad Bhagavatam in the beginning of his book in the section entitles, "The Aim of this Book."

 

· A misanalysis of the word anadi in Chapters 3 and 4 by the author is subject to the same defects as in Chapter 1. That is, in the Sanskrit it is almost always quoted with other words indicating middle (madhya) and end (anta or nidhana), thus, its commonly understood meaning of referring to beginninglessness is understood by shastras themselves.

 

· Therefore, the author's attempt to prove in these chapters that anadi is synonymnous with nitya is defeated.

 

 

 

Specific Problems with Chapter 3

 

Pg. 27 "The Upanisada and other ..." So? Is this a restriction?

 

pg. 29 "But unlike the Upanisads, the Mahabharata frequently employs the term anadi to describe entities (usually Krishna) or processes that are eternal..." The situation is that out of 44 occurrences of the word anadi in Mahabharata (quoted by the author of "OOP"), 41 of them are qualified with madhya, ananta, etc as discussed above and in Chapter 1.

 

Pgs 31-36: Regarding Bhagavad Gita:

 

· Pg 32: "In verse 13.20..." Since when is the living entity the Lord's internal potency?

 

· Quote from remarks on Chapter 1: When the author of "OOP" insists that only sat and asat exist, which he himself contradicts shortly thereafter, it should also be understood that nitya and ananta both come under sat (having existence with no end), and anitya and anadi both fall under asat (having existence which comes to an end).

 

· Pg 34: "In other words, to have no beginning is to be free of the modes of nature..." This is not true. To have no beginning is to not be a product of material nature.

 

· Pg. 34: "If we understand..." anadi and ananta are not synonyms. See above and comments on Chapter 1. He has misconstrued SJG's usage of the terms anadi and ananta. He is not giving dictionary definitions of them, he is referring to specific types of activities.

 

· Pg. 36: "And so the form of this..." This is referring to the material world, not the jiva's bondage. The author of "OOP's" translation "It's [the tree's]..." is incorrect. The correct translation of tathasya guna-sanga... is "And this material attachment is the only beginning" This is not perceived, reason being that it does not exist. No beginning is why it is not perceived. This is also corroborated on the very next page, Chapter 4, Pg. 37, "One verse describes the process..."

 

 

 

Specific Problems with Chapter 4

 

· Pg 38: "The question before us...", but it is there in the Upanisada, etc!

 

· What is the use of analyzing saasvat and sasvat? The author appears to be writing a dictionary in order to avoid dealing with the direct statements of SJG.

 

· All of this analysis does not prove that anadi does "not" mean having a beginning but no end.

 

· He also says at the top of Pg. 39 that he will analyze the use of the word anadi in Shrimad Bhagavatam in this chapter, but he does not. His presentation in Chapter 6 "The word anadi in Srimad Bhagavatam" is also incorrect, as will be demonstrated.

 

 

 

Chapter Five

 

Part 1: Lord Krishna and Uddhava:

 

· Pg 53: "...Lord Krishna tells us that this is also the case..." Where?

 

· In this section, Uddhava is basically asking: "Is the living entity simultaneously nitya-baddha and nitya-mukta by substance or in belief?"

 

·Substance here refers to the living entity's svarupa. Belief refers to his perception under the modes of nature (see Pg 59. "And so, first of all...")

 

· Bottom line of this whole section of SB is: His svarupa, or eternal conscious being never factually comes in contact with the material modes, but his eternal bondage is due to the influence of maya, or illusion. Just as a prince kidnapped by thieves at the time of his birth may think of himself as a dacoit throughout his life but he never really is.

 

· Thus, the terms nitya-baddha and nitya-mukta are products of maya. These terms are given for the conditioned soul's understanding in different contexts. When shastra wants to explain that he is not the body, it says nitya-mukta. When shastra wants to explain the duration of his existence under the influence of avidya, it says nitya baddha. But he understands his svarupa to be sat, cit, ananda, and part of a separate potency of the Lord, he realizes that his existence, his svarupa, has nothing to do with prakriti, and the terms baddha and mukta have no more relevance for him. Example: A person places a $100 bill in his pocket, and then forgets that he placed it there. When he becomes aware of its absence, he becomes distressed, and thinks, "When I find my money, I will feel great relief." But both of these two concepts of distress and relief are concepts in his mind, caused by the maya (or illusion) that he has lost his money. When he finally remembers that it has been in his pocket all along, both the distress and relief from distress become meaningless for him, because the illusion that caused both of them has been removed.

 

· Regarding Viraraghava and the term anitya (Pg 57) the acarya being talked about is SJG. Where is the discussion of his statements regarding anadi?

 

· Thus, on Pg 59, the conclusion: "And so, first of all..." In substance, the liiving entity is never conditioned, i.e., he is never a product of the modes of nature. "Rather, a belief, based on bodily designations takes place."

 

· SJG confirms this on Pgs. 59-60, "Although the living being..." This statement from SJG directly contradicts the "OOP" author's point 4 on pg. 56. By swarupa he is eternally liberated by modes he is eternally conditioned. The conditioning is not in the swarupa, otherwise he will never become liberated-muktir hitva anyatha rupam svarupina syavasthati-Bhag.

 

Part 2: Madhva's Tika:

 

·Madhva accepts beginningless ignorance in the first statement, "Beginningless ignorance is blindness." The rest is all discussion about bondage, in this context, bondage meaning being dependent on the Lord? Thus in "OOP" he gives a non-standard interpretation to the word "nitya-baddha" (...in order to establish the Lord's supreme independence and the dependence of all others on Him), he first makes certain to say that there is beginningless ignorance among the conditioned living entity's of the Lord's supremacy. This quote from Madhva is only supporting the no-falldown position.

 

· Pg. 61: "What is normally called material bondage, Madhva calls 'blindness,' andhatvam. His remarkable conclusion is that only the Lord is nitya-mukta, 'eternally' liberated, since only the Lord is fully independent." Here, the author leaves out two steps in this logic, and in effect changes the statements of Madhva to suit his own ideas. The full line of thought in the passage from Madhva is as follows:

 

1. Material bondage = blindness, andhatvam

 

2. This blindness is beginningless.

 

3. This blindness is ended by "favorable endeavor," i.e. devotional service

 

4. All jivas are eternally dependent on Vishnu (nitya-baddha), whether theyare blind or liberated.

 

5. Thus, in this sense, only the Lord is nitya-mukta, or completely independent.

 

· Madhva, even though he is reinterpreting these terms, is careful to keep the siddhanta clear. If we try to take his statements literally, without understanding the underlying siddhanta, then we will become confused by statements such as "But the nitya-mukta is one alone: Hari, Narayana, the Lord, because of His independence," as the author of "OOP" himself becomes confused in Chapter 8 where great offenses are created against Shrimati Tulasi Devi and Shri Sudama.

 

 

 

Chapter 6

 

· Pg 66: Top: Choice A is the correct one, and is corroborated by Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura's commentary on Bhagavad Gita verse 13.20, in Sarartha-darshini commentary. The author of "OOP" neglects to mention this commentary on this verse. If we are to accept the translation presented in "OOP" , SVCT will be contradicting himself.

 

· Pg 66-67. "Srila Prabhupada translates..." but why?

 

· Pg 67. "According to the rules of Sanskrit grammar..." This is not true.

 

· Pg 67. Vijayadvaya Tirtha *is* saying, "because the jiva's bondage is beginningless, the time when it began is not settled."

 

· Pg 67: Please see notes regarding Giridhara Lala in previous section entitled, "General Defects in Chapters 3 & 4."

 

· Pg 67: Anvitartha-prakashika was not written by a Vaishnava. His commentary is tinged with Mayavad.

 

· Pg 68: Regarding: cirantanam

 

1. It was explained in, "In Vaikuntha..." that anadi is a difficult concept, so acaryas give meanings like 'time immemorial' so we can understand.

 

2. Beginningless . . ..

 

3. "The Sanskrit word ciran-tanam..." What about the dictionary meaning of anadi?

 

4. "...of long standing, old, ancient." beginningless includes all of these.

 

5. Cirantanam has literal and figurative meaning.

 

·Pg. 68: Regarding: Shrimad Bhagavatam 11.11.4: (1) repeated mistranslation of the word bahu-kalika as "lasting." Bahu-kalika means "since a long time." Beginningless is also bahu-kalika.

 

· Pg 69: "The two commentaries quoted..." GGL is a big critic of SJG and AP was written by a non-Vaishnava.

 

· Pg 69: "We have not heard..." our own acharyas, such as SJG and SVCT do not accept fall-vad.

 

· Pg 69: "Moreover, were the term anadi not interpreted in this figurative way..." Here the author of "OOP" is saying anadi means asat. Previously, see pg 34 bottom, the author was saying it was sat??

 

· Pg. 69: "And so..." The correct translation is" And so its beginning (adih). Simply attachment to the modes. This is not perceived."

 

· pg 69: "In other words..." Why all of this memory business? He cannot perceive because it does not exist.

 

· Pg 70: "...others attribute the perception of eternal bondage to pratiti, which in this context means mere faith or belief, as opposed to ontological substance." So, how is it that one does not become liberated after just understanding that one is not really bound? the actual meaning is that bondage is not part of the jiva's svarupa.

 

 

 

Chapter 7

 

· Pg 71: "At the end of the Puranjana story, Lord Krsna, in the form of a brahmana..." Nowhere in this episode is Lord Krishna mentioned. The brahmana is Supersoul, not Krishna. So, there is no question of any discussion of falling down from Krishna Lila in this story to begin with.

 

· Pg 76: "...that the brahmana (Supersoul)..." Previously, he said Lord Krishna, but here he is admitting that it is Supersoul. Then, he contradicts himself a few sentences later. "Neither... mention Maha-Vishnu..."

 

· Pg 76: Regarding the phrase, "mayy eva militva mat-sangena sukham anubhutavan tvam eva militva" the Sanskrit word mayi is in the 7th (Locative) case, which means "in me alone" and not "with me." If the meaning is "with me" the Sanskrit would have been "maya eva" - the 3rd case.

 

· Pg 83: In the commentary, "kintu anady-avrtasya api sakhyasya svabhavikatvad anaditvam," the phrase anady-avrtasya api sakhyasya means the friendship, which is also covered without beginning. Since the covering of the friendship is beginningless, the forgetfulness is also beginningless. So, the word tad-vismrteh (forgetfullness) does not occur in this sentence, but it has been included here for clarity, since it occurs in the previous sentence. The author of "OOP" accepts the fact that the word anaditvam refers to sakhyasya (genitive case of sakhya), but they miss the point that the word anady-avrtasya (covered without beginning) is in the genitive case also, and it also refers to sakhasya. Thus, the forgetfulness has no beginning. The conclusion given by them, that the friendship with the Lord in beginningless is not what SJG is saying; but he is saying that the covering of the friendship is beginningless.

 

· Pg 85-98: The whole ensuing discussion is akin to the statements of Ramanujacarya from Chapter 2. The basic thing which is not being understood by the author of "OOP," is that when it says, "recovering his original form, etc." this is talking about his svarupa (self-nature) as a pure conscious entity, separate from the modes of nature.

 

 

 

Chapter 8

 

This chapter indicates a desperation to defend the theory of the falling of the nitya-parsada's, even at the high cost of committing immeasurable offenses to Shrimati Tulasi Devi and Shri Sudama and twisting the philosophy to fit this end.

 

Shrila Prabhupada once wrote in a letter (in reply to a letter regarding Tulasi care): "Use your common sense. If you have none, then consult those who do." The activities of Tulasi coming to this world are called lila. Tulasi-devi is an expansion of Shrimati Radharani-so now She is falling down also?

 

yatha skande:

ya drsta nikhilagha-sangha-samani sprsta vapuh pavani

raganamabhivandita nirasani siktantakatrasini

pratyasatti-vidhayini bhagavatah krsnasya samropita

nyasta laccarane vimukti-phalada tasyai tulasyai namah

(Brs. 203)

 

Translation by Srila Prabhupada

See, Nectar of Devotion. Part 1, Chapter 11-- Aspects of Transcendental Service

Serving Trees Such as Tulasi

 

and in the Shri Vrndadevy-astaka (verse 3):

 

samasta-vaikuntha-shriomanau shri-krsnasya vrndavana-dhanya-dhamni

dattadhikare vrsabhanu-putrya vrnde namas te caranaravindam

 

O Vrnda Devi, I offer my respectful obeisance to your lotus feet. Shrimate Radharani, the daughter of King Vrsabhanu, has made you the ruling monarch of Lord Krsna's opulent and auspicious abode of Vrndavana, which is the crest jewel of all the Vaikuntha planets.

 

We are astonished with the conclusion put forth in this chapter that the transcendental lila of one of the Lord's topmost and dearest eternal associates is given as an example meant to show or verify the assumption that all the billions of living entities who are undergoing repeated hellish conditions and entanglement in this material world have fallen in a similar way. To even think that such personalities as Tulasi devi can fall down is like killing one's own guru.

 

The author of this presentation refuses to give the "OOP" booklet the dignity of any further refutation. Further points presented in "OOP" are amply covered in the "In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall" book.

[Devarsirat 0]

 

No. We do not leave it up to the reader to decide. We accept the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada: "never mind what is your origin." That is his final conclusion on the subject.

 

That may be true when you preach to someone who is beginning trying to understand Krishna Consciousness, but ultimately it is important to know the final conclusion of everything concerning Krishna Consciousness.

 

Which is that we have not come from Goloka Vrindavan or Vaikuntha and that we have arrived from the tatastha-sakti region of the spiritual world.

 

We have been with Krishna formally similarly like the child is with the father before conception, but there is NO writing in any of Srila Prabhupadas books, that we have been formally cowherd boys, a gopy, or even a blad of grass in the spiritual world.

 

He does not even say this in any of His letters, He only makes suggestions which are easier to understand for neophite devotees in lectures and letters, but in His books we will find the final conclusion, He never writes that we have arrived here from Goloka Vrindavan or even from Vaikuntha.

 

 

 

C&P: "The living entities are manifested and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned and eternally liberated. Such living entities are innumerable, and they are considered fundamental parts of Krsna. Material energy is manifested into twenty-four divisions. The creation is effected by eternal time, and it is created and dissolved by external energy. This manifestation of the cosmic world repeatedly becomes visible and invisible.

 

...The living entity in his original position is pure spirit. He is just like an atomic particle of the Supreme Spirit. The conditioned living entity, however, is the marginal energy of the Lord; he tends to be in contact with both the material energy and the spiritual energy. In other words, the living entity is situated between the two energies of the Lord, and because he belongs to the superior energy of the Lord, he has a particle of independence. By proper use of that independence he comes under the direct order of Krsna. Thus he attains his normal condition in the pleasure-giving potency." Bhagavad-gita 18:78

 

I never read Srila Prabhupada writing in any of His books, that the inhabitants of Goloka or Vaikuntha are originally tiny atomic particles of the Supreme Lord or that they are in contact with both the material energy and the spiritual energy

 

The final conclusion always comes from His books, not from letters or lectures. His books are the final say on the matter, how can it be otherwise, since we all know, that the spiritual master sometimes uses His preaching genius according to time and circumstance in order to attract the living entity to Krishna?

 

But ones the devotee is gaining more understanding he should only referr to His books, because they only represent the final conclusions.

 

 

Like a mother and father who are telling their baby that it came originally from a pond where it was sleeping on a big leaf and a Storch came and picked it up to bring it to mum and dad....

 

do not expect their child to always believe this simplified version of events, Srila Prabhupada obviously believed that first we should learn the basics of Krishna Consciousness, before we go on to higher more difficult to understand topics.

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width=585 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD height=10>C&P:The Tatastha-Sakti is the marginal jiva potency of Lord krishna. It is known as the marginal energy or potency. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=description></B>

The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.

 

Food for thought:

To those who still believe that all living entities come from Goloka Vrindavan or Vaikuntha...

We have all changed our beautiful forms and lifes as servants of Krishna into the ugly forms we see here?

All living entities? Cockroaches, spiders all inhabitants of all the worlds and planets?

They have all been personal friends of Krishna ones?

Consider this.... there is a constant mass spiritual suicide commited by an immesurable number of Krishnas allknowing fully eternally liberated personal associates arriving from the Supreme Abodes Goloka Vrindavan and Vaikuntha to populate all the heavens and hells here everywhere?

Does that sound right?

Looks like lemnings jumping over the cliff one after another by the trillions

 

Srila Prabhupada never ever writes like this anywhere in any of His books and we should understand that its simplified verbal or letter preaching to those on a neophite level, its time to move on...

Haribol and dandavads Yhs Devarsirat das

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></I>

[Guest guest]

Sometimes we see devotees presenting tatastha skakti as a place or a location.

Actually, tatastha shakti is a level of CONSCIOUSNESS.

 

In that tatastha is referred to as a river bank or a beach is telling us that just as the river bank or the beach is sometimes under water and sometimes not, the tatastha jivas can sometimes be overcome by the spiritual tendency or sometimes taken over by the material tendency.

 

So, the tatastha-shakti is a kind of consciousness in which the jiva souls are in a condition in which they can be drawn to either the material mode or the spiritual mode of existence.

 

Therefore, their condition is marginal.

Their consciousness is of a nature that depending upon a number of factors they can either go toward the spiritual realm or go toward the material realm

[gHari 0]

 

We have been with Krishna formally similarly like the child is with the father before conception, but there is NO writing in any of Srila Prabhupadas books, that we have been formally cowherd boys, a gopy, or even a blad of grass in the spiritual world.

Here are some more quotations from His Divine Grace lifted from another thread:

 

"O friend, do you remember the unknown friend, the soul? Leaving Me, searching for a posiiton, he went away, absorbed in worldly enjoyment." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53.

 

"When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion, keeps company with the living entity. In this way, the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead." - Purport to this Bhagavatam verse.

 

"This conditional life is due to his forgetfulness of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, without the Lord's mercy, how can he again engage in the transcendental loving service to the Lord"? - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15.

 

"Therefore, if we practice devotional service . . . we will be reinstated in our original, constitutional position and thus be saved." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 10.2.39

 

"Therefore, the rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living being and the spiritual whole, the Personality of Godhead." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.1.3.

 

"When the pure soul wants to <B>give up the Lord's service</b> to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world". - Introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam (5.14)

 

There's no service in the brahmajyoti. That's one of the reasons the brahmajyoti exists: so part and parcels who develop maximum aversion to devotional service have somewhere to go and exist.

"He should be restored to his pure identity, in which he engages his senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.24.61.

 

"Therefore, the whole process of God consciousness is meant to rectify the conditional activities of the senses and to re-engage them in the direct service of the Lord". -Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.9.39.

 

Re-engage? How can you be re-engaged in "direct service" of the Lord if you've originally come from the brahmajyoti or some other place that does not facilitate direct, personal engagement in devotional service?

"If we revive our original intimate relationship with Krsna, our distressed condition in the material world will be mitigated". - Purport to Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya-lila, 20.130

 

"As stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam, liberation means reinstatement in one's original position. The original position is one of rendering service to the Lord". -Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 3.27.1

[Guest guest]

the misconception that eternal associates of Krishna fall down to become worms in dog stool is based upon the premise that maha-maya has some presence or influence in the spiritual world.

 

However, as stated in shastra, maha-maya has no influence or presence in the spiritual world.

In the spiritual world, yoga-maya acts upon the devotees and protects them from offense and falldown.

 

There is no "MAYA," as we know it, in the spiritual world.

 

If maya could allure and attract pure devotees from Goloka, then Goloka would be just as treacherous and dangerous a place as anywhere in the material world.

 

We see the same old tactics of devotees trying tp support the fall from Goloka theory with letters from Srila Prabhupada to neophyte devotees in abject indifference to what he clearly taught in his books.

 

We can't live forever in Srila Prabhupada's letters to neophyte devotees who were having problems understanding siddhanta.

Sooner or later we have to understand the books and graduate to higher levels of understanding than the indirect words of Srila Prabhupada to the most neophyte of devotees.

[Guest guest]

 

Here are some more quotations from His Divine Grace lifted from another thread:

 

"O friend, do you remember the unknown friend, the soul? Leaving Me, searching for a posiiton, he went away, absorbed in worldly enjoyment." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53.

 

"When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion, keeps company with the living entity. In this way, the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead." - Purport to this Bhagavatam verse.

 

"This conditional life is due to his forgetfulness of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, without the Lord's mercy, how can he again engage in the transcendental loving service to the Lord"? - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15.

 

"Therefore, if we practice devotional service . . . we will be reinstated in our original, constitutional position and thus be saved." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 10.2.39

 

"Therefore, the rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living being and the spiritual whole, the Personality of Godhead." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.1.3.

 

"When the pure soul wants to <B>give up the Lord's service</b> to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world". - Introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam (5.14)

 

There's no service in the brahmajyoti. That's one of the reasons the brahmajyoti exists: so part and parcels who develop maximum aversion to devotional service have somewhere to go and exist.

"He should be restored to his pure identity, in which he engages his senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.24.61.

 

"Therefore, the whole process of God consciousness is meant to rectify the conditional activities of the senses and to re-engage them in the direct service of the Lord". -Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.9.39.

 

Re-engage? How can you be re-engaged in "direct service" of the Lord if you've originally come from the brahmajyoti or some other place that does not facilitate direct, personal engagement in devotional service?

"If we revive our original intimate relationship with Krsna, our distressed condition in the material world will be mitigated". - Purport to Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya-lila, 20.130

 

"As stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam, liberation means reinstatement in one's original position. The original position is one of rendering service to the Lord". -Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 3.27.1

 

 

all that is easily understood if we understand that shanta rasa is a relationship with Krishna. Being the "neutral" state of relationship with Krishna, living entities can be attracted away from Krishna and towards Maya.

 

Our original position is as servant of Krishna. Since that position was in shanta rasa from a marginal condition, we were liable to falldown.

 

We need to re-establish our original position as servant of Krishna, but from a position of strength within the chit-shakti.

 

Our original condition was servant in shanta-rasa from the marginal plane of consciousness. We fell down from that due to lack of chit strength.

 

If we attain completeness in chit-shakti then our jivatma will become empowered to resist maya and stay firmly fixed in our superior relationship with Krishna in one of the relationships above neutrality where the living entity is endowed with chit-shakti and bhakti shakti.

 

Shanta rasa of the marginal type is a very risky platform. We can fall from that position.

 

Shanta-rasa in chit-shakti is not the same as shanta-rasa in tatastha shakti.

[gHari 0]

Too many holes. We are not being objective.

[gHari 0]

 

[...] that eternal associates of Krishna fall down to become worms in dog stool is based upon the premise that maha-maya has some presence or influence in the spiritual world. [...]

I don't see that as true.

 

Nor do I see accepting half a hen as something a disciple would consider without exhausting all conceivable alternatives, and maybe not even then. Humility and respect for the master will make it difficult to presume that hundreds of verbal references were white lies, diplomacy. Fall references must outnumber the no-fall 20 to 1 at least. Srila Prabhupada seemed to see no inconsistency or paradox or duplicity in his preaching. I don't know why I should.