Keys To Successful Religions

[gHari 0]

Here are nine basic tenets from the Garland of Vaishnava Truths by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

Q. What command has the supremely worshipable Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu given to us?

 

A. His order is this: that we very carefully observe the nine instructions of truth that Sri Madhvacarya has given us through the guru-parampara (disciplic succession).

 

Q. What are the names of these nine instructions given by Sri Madhvacarya?

 

A. Their names are thus:<blockquote>1) Bhagavan alone is the Supreme truth, one without a second.

 

2) He is the object of knowledge in all the Vedas.

 

3) The universe is real [satya].

 

4) Differences [between Isvara, jiva and matter] are real.

 

5) Jiva souls are the servants of Lord Hari.

 

6) All souls are different according to their different situations.

 

7) Liberation [moksa] is the name of attainment of Bhagavan's feet.

 

8) Bhagavan's pure worship [amala bhajana] is the only way to attain liberation.

 

9) Pratyaksa [direct perception], anumana [logic], and sabda [spiritual sound] are the three types of evidence.</blockquote>

 

The above nine may scare as many away as it might attract of those who have never considered some of these more esoteric aspects of religious thought.

 

I found another succinct statement of our religion by Srila Prabhupada and had considered presenting it on the Fellowship. I'll try to find it, and learn to follow my heart more closely in the future, even if I cannot see the full rationale for doing so at the time.

[gHari 0]

Here is a simple statement of our religion by Srila Prabhupada, and indeed a simple statement of why one should follow Lord Caitanya:

Generally, modern so-called religious leaders have no conception of God, and yet they are preaching religion. What good is that religion? People are simply being misled. Real religion means God's order: dharmaM tu sAkSAd bhagavat-praNItam [sB 6.3.19]. If your religion has no conception of God, where is the question of religion? Still, without any conception of God, they are professing some religion. How long will it go on artificially? It will deteriorate. That ignorance about God has resulted in the present condition.

 

Religion means the order of God, just as law means the order of the state. Now, if in your social system there is no state, where is the question of the state's order? You will simply manufacture your own order. Today that is going on in the field of religion: there is no conception of God and therefore no following of God's order.

 

But we devotees of KRSNa have a clear conception of God. Here is God: KRSNa. And He's giving orders. We accept those orders. So it is clear religion. But if there is no conception of God, no order of God, then where is the question of religion? Ask someone in some other religious system what their conception of the form of God is. Can anyone tell clearly? Nobody can say. But we shall immediately say,

 

<center>veNuM kvaNantam aravinda-dalAyatAkSaM

barhAvataMsam asitAmbudha-sundarAGgam

kandarpa-koTi-kamanIya-vizeSa-zobhaM

govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

</center>

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept at playing on His flute, whose eyes are like petals of a blooming lotus, whose head is bedecked with a peacock's feather, whose figure of beauty is tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and whose unique loveliness charms millions of Cupids." [brahma-saMhitA 5.30]

 

Immediately, description--"Here is God." Then there is religion. And if there is no conception of God, where is the question of religion? Bogus. That is why religiosity and the other noble human qualities are declining. People have no conception of God, and therefore there is no understanding of religion. As a result, the whole human civilization is declining. And because it is declining, human beings are becoming more and more like animals.

 

[Gauracandra 1]

Some very good points here. First, I think Beemasane was exactly on point when he said our first core value must be humility. Its easier said than done, but I think that is central. Also, some very good quotes from Ghari about the foundation of our faith. The last quote by Srila Prabhupada about a very real conception of God I think is point on. In my opinion, our single greatest strength as a religion is deity worship. Some will say kirtan, and this certainly is true. But most religions have music in praise of God. But when you see the deity form, I have seen people just slack jawed when looking at the beauty of Their Lordships. It is such a real, solid notion of God, the beauty of God, and the feminine component to God. Christianity doesn't have this, Judaism doesn't have this, Islam doesn't have this. All three have a very particular mood, very heavy. Buddhism has deity worship, but they too have a very reserved mood. But Radha and Krsna, decorated with flowers, beautiful eyes, feet, simple beauty. The deities absolutely floor people when they see them. This I think is such a great strength for us.

[beemasane 0]

yay Gauracandra! possibilities for a 5 point plan from your most fallen reader:1. am i humble2.am i strong3.ami detatched form the fruits of labors4.do i follow my gurudeva as best as i can and more5.do i handle the implementation of these intelligent thoughts on religion based on love before intelligents please excuse any offenses with this message..all glories to all Vaisnavas!

[Gauracandra 1]

Now here is what I mean about creating a voice. When we preach we have a whole number of points we can focus on. We have thousands of points we can discuss, and so many devotees out there preaching. On person will talk about karma. Another about reincarnation. Another about vegetarianism. And so on and so forth. But what is our core. If we say one of our principle cores is "a very real conception of God", then this should be what we emphasize when speaking to people. How does this play out practically? What is more important to us, our very real conception of God and His/Her beauty, or reincarnation? In my opinion we would do very well to have our message be "WE KNOW WHAT GOD LOOKS LIKE, AND HE'S SWEET AND BEAUTIFUL", and just carry around pictures of the deities. And every single preacher says the exact same thing, talking about the nature of God, and how we can develop a loving relationship with this very real person. Make our message clearly defined - God is beautiful, and sweet, and this is what He and SHE looks like. No other religion can say this. Christians, Jews, Muslims cannot describe what God looks like. We can. This is how we can be heard - by having a single, clearly defined message. Thats one aspect to creating a powerful voice.

[beemasane 0]

please excuse my being a jr. member and my awful type but i am in an ocean of utsaha after finding audarya. i have read so much tolerance here that i am inspired to add this to my existing saddhu sanga as a valuable tool. it is appharad that kills us. everybody else is prabhu...all Goswamis give us the exaple of the servant of the servantetc.Gauracandra, you are so nice to say hello and you so right we have the sweetest, avinash said on 3/4/02 we should not kick away if some problem comes and ghari(sp)is so nice to point out allin point #6:so many different types...all shoul;d be handled with love and affection and i don't mean hippie dippie, we have to be honest about our level of K>C> for this love and i know that if i am surrendering to guruANY good guru my voice becomes sweeter and i see how to love more properly...otherwise my head with a little(or a lot) of inmtelligence tips me over into krodha that "YOU JUST DONT SEE MY POINT PRAWBOOOOOO!" I AM BREAKING UP WITH LAUGHTER HERE because i forgot to turn off the krodha type. at suksdeva swamis srimad bhagwatam class can you just imagine REALLY how many different types of Prabhus in that audienceand he wouldnt mention her name out of respect for all..we are so fortunate for the guru to help us with our collective "voices"o therwise where would we be..i know i have gone on too long here and am so offensive. once, just this time, will you forgive this junior member... i waited along time to finally say ANYTHING..please dont kick me out of your association...based on my reading i even have favorite "cyber guru prabhus" already and am waiting for more i want to be part of "the voice" all glories to ALL vaisnavas, Jaya Sri Radhe!

[beemasane 0]

one more thing then i will go away for a while oooooooh the dam has busted Gauracandra i am so excited with your idea of Dieties...can you just imagine what little Gopala Bhatta with his big wide lotus eyes must have seen in the big aishwarya temple of vishnu when mahaprabhu came to visit... all of the celestial kirtan going on in this huge nifty temple with Lord chaitanya who after he fainted and is described he looked like a golden mountain and what of the AMAZEMENT of others there gathered(WOW)incence plumes, resonating sound factors , the prescense of who knows who else unseenoooooh. follow your ruci , everybody follow your ruci and be COMPLETELY absorbed in your particular taste so that anyone will be so inspired to autonatically without any ol strong arm temple commnder to demand you clean the temple room keejaya GUndica etc.in 1994 at a huge multi guru-ed out camp out i took a old telephone reciever with the cord hanging off and told everybody i had a direct line to Krishna and Prabhupada...no more would we have the gbc to tell us what Prbhupada wanted: (sample conference phone conv. here)"hello, Krishna, all glories to y...whats that? am i being humble? uhhh, well i am trying to be but...whats that Prabhupada?bhakta fred is over crying in the stool room because pratistha prabhu told him he was a nonsense,whats that ? go over and hug him right now.OK.and whats that you want me to call you more often? but Prabhupada who knows how long this connection will last? you are not here anymore...Srila Prabhupada responds vehemently'NONsense' then in a soft and soothing voice he says 'you can talk to me everyday even without that old phone...just pick up your bead bag and pray for me to help you.' it is my maybe not so humble OR advanced opinion that itmajor is humility indeed a key of religion. How IS it that so many of us who are ALL so advanced Rupanugas of Bhaktivinode Thakur are so baptisted and catholic-ed and argle-argle pentacostalled all outARGGGHHHHHall glories to ALLLLLLLL vaisnavas indeedy...i promise not to bother anyone for a while now (Gauaracandra, your topic is the one i have waited a long time to respond to after reading a lot of others i am not so advanced that i can comment on. my ruci that i am following is: that i see the keys are inside, it is only my taste and all i have wanted to do is share it as good(and FUNNY?, humble?[haha])as i can.)all glories to Madhumangala, all glories to all Vaisnavas

[Guest guest]

I believe the true success of a religion cannot actually be measured. If the religion (guru) teaches clearly about the Absolute Truth and the follower (s) realize by following the teachings then there is success. But it is so confidential between the guru and the disciple that it cannot be measured by anyone external to it. Srila Prabhupada has taught that Lord Sri Krishna is the Absolute Truth. For us that would be an indisputable fact when we realize Krishna and until then it is a matter of faith. The fact that by following Srila Prabhupada's instructions we realized Krishna would be our success and the success of the movement. To make ISKCON successful, our biggest contribution is to make our own personal spiritual life asuccess. Who cares if we cannot measure it ?

 

As an evangelist movement our success can be measured in external terms by how far we propgate our faith. Like how many followers, cultual shift in the society, ethical organizational structures, influence over the economic and power structures in a positive way and so on. At a micro level I believe that success can also be measured in terms of how many good people (devotees would not indulge in evil deeds at the bare minimum) we create. One sign of goodness is charity like this group is doing for poor children in India. And the health of relationship between the devotees and real care that we can show for each other. We have to soon have a lot principled people who we can count on.

[leyh 0]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Now here is what I mean about creating a voice. When we preach we have a whole number of points we can focus on. We have thousands of points we can discuss, and so many devotees out there preaching. On person will talk about karma. Another about reincarnation. Another about vegetarianism. And so on and so forth. But what is our core. If we say one of our principle cores is "a very real conception of God", then this should be what we emphasize when speaking to people. How does this play out practically? What is more important to us, our very real conception of God and His/Her beauty, or reincarnation? In my opinion we would do very well to have our message be "WE KNOW WHAT GOD LOOKS LIKE, AND HE'S SWEET AND BEAUTIFUL", and just carry around pictures of the deities. And every single preacher says the exact same thing, talking about the nature of God, and how we can develop a loving relationship with this very real person. Make our message clearly defined - God is beautiful, and sweet, and this is what He and SHE looks like. No other religion can say this. Christians, Jews, Muslims cannot describe what God looks like. We can. This is how we can be heard - by having a single, clearly defined message. Thats one aspect to creating a powerful voice.

I really like the slogan:""WE KNOW WHAT GOD LOOKS LIKE, AND HE'S SWEET AND BEAUTIFUL" Seems quite appropriate for a T-shirt decorated with a nice picture of Krsna playing his flute.

 

"What are the teachings of Krsna?" People sometimes ask when I tell them I worship Krsna (I hesitate to use the word "devotee") and maybe the next time someone asks me that,I'll say with a straight face."According to the teachings of the Vedas which are the scriptures revealed to the sages of ancient India,God is a sweet and beautiful person and we can be friends with Him."

 

 

 

[beemasane 0]

sweet. since i am reading this by Gauracandras words yesterday it has made me remember the first time i read a book of Krishna, The Krishna Book and i sat up like lightning has hit me when i read about Krishna stealing the butter and yogurt and giving to his friends then monkeys then"oh this yogurt is no good" and He smashes the pots and peeing allover and he has these good buddies and is the most popular guy on the block with the girls...what IS this?...my kind of God thats what, a sweet God you can go and play forever like he is not some scary big faceless God on a throne, quashing us into oblivion...forever. Ram you are a very serious person, i think to know of the very deep and personal nature of the guru disciple relationship AND seceret nature of this relationship...how IS it possible..very difficult, but one of the ways according to shastra is that the symptom of a madhyam is that you are immediately wanting to chant Hare Krishna when you see that devotee or hear. there are devotees like this for real,not show-bottle so-called "big devotees" , i know im telling you something you do already know so please forgive my offence...they will not have to force you, you will beg...these are the people who we will go to as keys to the religion, they in one sense have been measured by not falling too. these sre the "good" people you speak of. and even also those who have some problems but do not cause problems because they have a good heart and i am seeing more and more of these people too and it is so enlivening and i think you are one of these nice prabhus who is making me want to go do more rounds today...and yes i think you are right that basing all on a loveing basis will eventually win out over so called intelligent managemant of spirituality. if we care about our prabhus we will not stomp on their faces or stab in the back for a whacked out " i am doing this for Krishna and you are so un-bona fide and i am so advanced vaisnava". "sweet-tee"shirts with sweet Krishna for all leyh and by golly i am liking the sweet thread here Gauracandra, i am liking this voice.all glories to all the Vaisnavas, especially the sweet ones!

[beemasane 0]

edit. my point of the madhyam is that he is measuring upto his guru relationship

[gHari 0]

When I worked in the Christian Church, our prayer group had an exercise where we each had to make a poster. I made two, and one of them depicted the trilogy of axioms from which Prabhupada said we can deduce all truth:

 

<center><table width="80%" border=5 bgcolor=yellow><td width="100%"><center><h3>

<font color=blue>GOD is the Supreme Proprietor

 

GOD is the Supreme Enjoyer

 

GOD is everyone's Best Friend </font></center></h3></td></table></center><font color="#dedfdf">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 04-01-2002).]

[beemasane 0]

yay!

[abhi_the_great 0]

3 points which I found interesting from the book of Lee Kuan Yew. He says there are 3 basic necessities for a successful society.

 

1. Able and strong leadership

2. Efficient administration

3. Disciplined people

 

I feel ISKCON has to improve more on point no. 2.

 

Hari Hari

Abhi

 

[Gauracandra 1]

Related to developing a “voice” is how to vocalize the message. The most effective way to make a deep impression on the public mind is through consistency. Many small, positive impressions consistently applied over time are much more effective than one big presentation occurring at one point in time. This has a number of implications on preaching. For instance, it might be a better approach in preaching to distribute the so-called “small books” rather than the large books. The large ones get the donations, but the small ones are more likely to actually be read. Small pamphlets with the focused message, distributed over several decades, I think would make a major impact on the public’s view of who the Hare Krsna’s are. Provided we need to have a singular message, and to distribute the same pamphlet (or variations on the same theme), consistently for several decades.

[beemasane 0]

oops. i pushed the wrong button again...Gauracandra my short reply has now miraculously a "new" topic..please forgive me

[abhi_the_great 0]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Related to developing a ?voice? is how to vocalize the message. The most effective way to make a deep impression on the public mind is through consistency. Many small, positive impressions consistently applied over time are much more effective than one big presentation occurring at one point in time. This has a number of implications on preaching. For instance, it might be a better approach in preaching to distribute the so-called ?small books? rather than the large books. The large ones get the donations, but the small ones are more likely to actually be read. Small pamphlets with the focused message, distributed over several decades, I think would make a major impact on the public?s view of who the Hare Krsna?s are. Provided we need to have a singular message, and to distribute the same pamphlet (or variations on the same theme), consistently for several decades.

Gauracandra, you are a genius. You shd do more research on group psychology, national psychology. These small points are very genuine and practical and effective, too.

[gHari 0]

Yes indeed. I am envisioning a spread sheet with Gauracandra's secrets to successful religions in one column, then a column for the Gaudiya's approach, then a third large column for brainstorming new ideas.

 

Each aspect we discuss, I can see how clever Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada have been in their application of Gauracandra's principles. Even sanatana dharma and varnasrama become clearer and so logical when analysed in this way.

 

Keep up the good work. I think we are getting even more out of this exercise than merely a new face-lift.

[beemasane 0]

Actually, empowered is the correct nomenclature when referring to Gauaracandra's sterling sense of innovative discrimination...please excuse any offenses here abhi and all glories to all the vaisnavas. (insert Nitai Gauranga here)

[Gauracandra 1]

Beemasane wrote:

a folded slightly larger than wallet sized business card perhaps. somewhat oppulent or rather, "professional", the space although minimal could state a few palatable bytes by prabhpada with a topic range of 4 "castes" designed to intrigue different people.

This is a very good idea. Several years ago a devotee from Hawaii made a presentation on what we could do to make Iskcon better. I don’t recall his name, but he was a former professional tennis player who does motivational speaking now. Anyways, one of his suggestions was to carry around a small notepad and pen. Whenever a new idea hit, to write it down. I thought this was a very good idea. Sort of like perpetual brainstorming. I carried around these pads for over 1 year, and jotted down lots of ideas. What I liked about it was that I never restricted myself. It was completely brainstorming. Some ideas were silly, some impossible, some just small flashes (like words or phrases or sentences I liked). To me it was just an experiment to see what I could come up with. While most were probably not that great, I think reading through them now, there are a few really good ideas. That’s the point of brainstorming. We might have 98% of ideas be silly, or useless, but maybe 1 idea thats great. Come back to the ideas a year later and see which hold up, and which don’t. The one’s that hold up are probably pretty good.

 

All that being said, I put your quote up there because I came up with a similar idea once (and jotted in my notebook). Basically I was visiting the Tucson, AZ temple several years back. I don’t remember the guy who’s in charge of that whole area (Tucson and Phoenix) but he creates a very first class presentation. Anyways, the Tucson restaurant had these small business cards that were beautiful. They were very colorful, and just really first class. So I took one and thought it was a great card. Later I was at a mall in Tucson, and was looking through a book store. Then I came across the vegetarian cooking section. Just by chance I see there is Mother Yamuna’s vegetarian cookbook. Then the idea hit me. Why not place this small business card for a vegetarian restaurant in the book. Then I figured, why not have devotees create small business cards, and go to all of the libraries and book stores placing them in certain relevant books (not all since that would be annoying). I think its an idea that can certainly work, is relatively inexpensive, and can create a wide distribution.

[beemasane 0]

his name is Peter Burwash. (the tennis player)

[beemasane 0]

hi-dee-ho notebook buddy, i too have kept notebooks for years...i do indeed find them, for myself these days, invaluable tools of sadhana...my name could easily be beemasane muni as i am almost always on the mental platform. and because i am always coming up with an alarming number of questions of an even more alarmingly obscure nature that has always driven my senior Godbrothers to distraction...it behooves me to sift thru' the detritus with great care... on the serious side tho', i have just a smidgeon of experience in this type of seva you are involved with..there is a certain validity to the old adage "when in rome, do as the romans do". a professional, toned down card that has elegance in simplicity without sacrificing the potency. also, rep.s of many great men of the past have been very successful with long term repetition of a succint yet potent rejoinder, ie. "i have a dream". and the art work should be selected very carefully so as to avoid the naivte of the Jehovah Witnesses which even children seem to scoff at...we could talk, perish the thought about about a reduction of the cartoonish nature of some of our art. i must add here that i am not trying to be offensive... to be honest i am very discriminating with art, yet actually PREFER some of the more cartoony art...it is veeeery sweet...but i have to beg off here for a few hours to attend to a little sick prabhu of mine...i will get back to you tho'. i actually am very keen on this sort of thing, all zaniness aside when i am presenting my Gurus message to the public at large. all beamed out for now but still a little flickering light left to see the sign ahead...Honor All Vaisnavas

[beemasane 0]

re. art work. unfortunately in the land of nirvesea sunnyavadi and sky blue waters, artwork should be very carefully selected. as i keep an i eye out on the pulse of humanity, it sadly seems impersonalism is just as entrenched in the public psyche as ever, maybe more since 9/11. blotto seems to be the name of the game: booze'n'Buddhism both have risen in popularity as a plausible means of sticking you head in the sand..sick call again, i'll be back

[beemasane 0]

sheesh, its like a freekin' er room here at the old greehaw...on the flip side tho' ironically, people are looking for ANY "surcease to their sorrows" too. personally i like the emblem route, ie chakra like stuff, tilak sign etc. and i'm not even above a little artistic "larceny", such as ripping off the impersonalists since they seem to be the vogue these Gere-ey days by applying a few Buddhist-ey brush strokes to the chakra for example...the hindoos seemed to fare pretty well with ol' akbar and the mugal style.as a side note i seem to remember that ol' akbar actually funded Ragunatha Goswami! these are a few ideas off the top of my head with no meditation and prayers to the Guru, which i will be doing to try to add to your thread, a head and a half is better than one in a gripe free braintrust. i am sorry if they may seem a bit materialistic or at best spiritually shallow...art work like every other thing has to be parampara-ed to be the most potent...until we meet again o' aryan brother of the quill...i remain poetically refrained but not restrained from wishing you and all those pesky Vaisnavas a grand sweeping pronouncement: roses are red Krishna is blue and i like you...sick call again for the beamerooo

[beemasane 0]

yo. so far we have discussed what will henceforth be called the outside flap. don't think for a moment that a nice golden embossed buddhist-ey chakra will take the place of a picture of Lord Chaitanya imbued with all of the potency of an experienced senior devotee artist...even if it might be from a neighboring user friendly Rupanuga camp...don't get me wrong here, but you haven't lived until you've seen some of the absolutely sublime Lord Chaitanya's i have seen in His Grace Puri Maharaja's line(no official affiliation here, but remember my line: "all glories etc.") These are the crying type of Lord Chaitanyas that i just know would steal the heart from any sincere disciple of Jesus Christ...and rather than go on and on, what i am getting at here is not to sway you with any spiritual,and artistic sensibilities that i may (or may not) possess. what we're talkin' here Prabhu is good old market savvy..an analysis targeted at your 4 basic ashrams for your 4 card spread. this analysis is meant as a focus, complimented by your disciplic artisric purity and imbued with a powerful catchy slogan to completely confound and enchant the angst riddled psyche of even the most jaded of karmi dogs...oooooh, i can just see this card now..last point: not wallet size, i personally don't like the idea of the Lord or Srila Prabhupada encased in leather or being sat on! also, as i said before, if the cards are slightly larger than biz size, aformentioned lucky karmi dogs will do service by carrying them carefully for a while or having to treat them nicely because what we're talkin' here is Fine Art and i do mean FINE. please forgive me for any unintentional offenses and for taking up so much of your thread space and valuable time. this is beema-"art of the deal"-sane saying have your people call my people and we'll do prasad and... glorify all Vaisnavas.