King Follett's Discourse - By Joseph Smith

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

So basically the Mormons can convert the entire world of dead people without anyone objecting? Doesn't this make the whole process completely ritualistic. We don't even need to believe in their religion. Maybe after 500 years some Mormon will baptise me and I will be "saved".

 

[Gauracandra 1]

People have objected, and thus they usually like to keep it low profile. To me it is a really controvesial aspect to their religion. One of the great divides in Christianity is whether baptism can occur for young children or whether one must be an adult to truly be baptised (to understand the consequences of this action). Catholics allow child baptisms, while the Amish only allow those who have reached a certain age of moral decision making to accept baptism. Mormons have really taken this to another level by saying even dead people can be baptised, whether they want it or not. This is what the Jewish holocaust survivors were objecting to. The idea is that one wants all their past relatives to be reunited in heaven. If some Mormons are in heaven, but their ancestors aren't then their family is incomplete. Since their goal is to have everyone one day be Mormon, then they want all future Mormon families to have their ancestors be baptised.

[Gauracandra 1]

Thus far I've been talking mostly about the philosophy of the LDS Church. They also have a number of very interesting organizational setups.

 

Of particular note is the "temple recommend card". The LDS church has like 50-60 temples worldwide (with another 50-60 in various stages of planning and construction). A temple is distinct from their church buildings (of which there are thousands). Only temple worthy individuals are admitted to these sacred buildings.

 

How does one become temple worthy? Well basically one needs a "temple recommend card" from the local bishop. One will only get this card if they donate 10% of their yearly gross income, provide service within the church (they have an entirely lay clergy), swear allegiance to the church, and live a clean life. Also, most often individuals will have to have spent 1-2 years on a preaching mission.

 

With such high standards for admittance only about one-third of all Mormons have access to these buildings. And yet access to these buildings is the focal point of Mormonism. Only within these temples do marriages occur (to the best of my knowledge). Thus an individual cannot get married in the Mormon church without a temple recommend card. And marriage (if I hadn't mentioned it before) is a virtual prerequisite in order to attain "godhood" in the next life. In addition, the various secret rituals (borrowed from Masonic rituals) take place in these temples (from secret handshakes, code names, and a reinactment of creation). Baptisms for the dead also take place within these sacred buildings.

 

So the temple recommend card is a vital tool employed by the LDS Church in order to maintain discipline among their congregation. It is a key reason that so many are active within their church, because entrance to such temples is considered quite prestigious.

 

Gauracandra

[Gauracandra 1]

Here are some pictures of Mormon Baptismal fonts. The one common feature to all is that the pool of water is held upon the backs of 12 bulls representing the 12 tribes of Israel. This is an important point for the Mormons as they believe historicaly some of these 12 tribes made it to the new world (and that Jesus appeared in the New World to start his ministry - more on that later).

 

 

 

[atma 0]

Today at work was a battlefield because this thing about baptism. One Jehovah Witness happened to mention that her kids are not baptized because they wait until the kids are mature enough to make their own decisions. One of the guys became mad and he said that her children are in hell because they are not baptized yet. Became a huge thing, with definitions abou hell and heaven, baptisms or other things. The guy was really narrow minded and was quite mean to the poor woman. All in the name of religion.

[Gauracandra 1]

Its funny how these little points are big theological discussions. I remember a Seventh Day Adventist telling me that unless you observed the Sabbath on Saturday you were going to hell. His point was that the seventh day is Saturday, which is true. The days of the week begin with Sunday, and end with Saturday. Jews observe the Sabbath on Saturday. All other Christians observe it on Sunday. But I think the real point is that the Sabbath is meant as a day set aside for God. Who even knows what the "real" seventh day is - we've had a number of different calendars.

 

As far as baptisms go, I tend to side with those who say only be baptised when you are old enough to make the moral decision to follow that path. Baptism is about making a conscious choice to live a Godly life, not simply a ritual. Thats my view atleast.

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 02-21-2002).]

[Gauracandra 1]

Another interesting point about Mormonism is that it is very much rooted in America. It is an American religion in many respects. Joseph Smith layed out a “history” of the new world that placed the United States in the Center. Jesus came to the new world to preach (more on this later). And in fact, Independence, Missouri is the home of the Garden of Eden according to Mormon teachings. When Jesus returns he will return to Independence, Missouri to reestablish his kingdom on earth. The LDS Church (and various splinter groups) have purchased lots of property in Missouri for just this event. These sorts of views give Mormons a special affinity to the United States of America which they see in many respects as a prophetic country.

[gHari 0]

PBS Special on An American Prophet, Joseph Smith

[Gauracandra 1]

Thanks for the pointer on this. I think I've seen a small bit of this documentary before. I'm pretty sure this is the one that basically the LDS Church financed. So its going to have a certain slant. The Mormons were persecuted in many places. But they also have some black marks on their history such as the "Mountain Meadows Massacre" in which Utah Mormons lead Indians to slaughter over 100 non-Mormon's. I suspect such information will be missing from this documentary. Still, it could be interesting. Thanks again, perhaps I'll buy me a copy.

[gHari 0]

At the age of fourteen, Joseph Smith met God and Jesus. I wonder if he has described them in any of his writings? Certainly the bluish Krsna would be something to remark about.

 

I also wonder if the golden tablets Smith discovered, upon which the Book of Mormon was found and then transcribed by him still exist.

 

From the PBS and LDS websites, I got no idea of this King Follett 'tattva'. It seemed pretty much Christianity with an emphasis on the Holy Ghost.

[Gauracandra 1]

There is a saying in Mormonism that goes something to the effect of “Don’t serve them the milk before the meat, else they might choke.” The point is don’t tell them the higher truths until they are committed enough in the church, otherwise they might reject the teachings.

 

The LDS church hasn’t always emphasized Jesus. But starting around 1950 or so the Church found that associating itself more and more with Jesus was a good marketing move. They experienced their greatest growth right around the time that American culture started to go the way of the hippies. Their clean cut image was a perfect contrast to the 60s youth rebellion.

 

Anyways, there were 3 main breaks in the church of Joseph Smith. One was the group of Mormons who were driven out to Utah (the most successful of the group). The other two branches are more or less dead, or dying. I don’t recall the distinction between these other two groups (one from another) but basically their view is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, but that he fell into apostasy. In the beginning, Joseph Smith never preached this “Becoming a God” tattva. It was much more regular Christianity, with the Book of Mormon thrown in (stating that Jesus came to the new world etc…). The strongest of these two offshoot branches is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. What is interesting about them, is that Joseph Smith’s wife (official one), Emma Smith was one of the founders of this church.

 

While officially the LDS church doesn’t make it known of their “Becoming God” tattva, this is their view. The current President Gordon Hinckley was asked about this on 60 Minutes by Mike Wallace. His reply was to the effect of “We have a saying that “As God once was, man shall become. But I don’t know that we teach that” But a little while latter, when addressing Mormon’s at their twice yearly General Conference he basically said “Perhaps some of you saw me on 60 Minutes, and think that I don’t fully understand our philosophy. Don’t worry, I know it fully well” (wink, wink).

 

Anyways, as for the golden tablets those do not exist. Basically, the angel that directed Joseph Smith to the gold plates only let him use them to translate. Joseph Smith used “seer stones” to translate these gold plates. The “witnesses” to the plates are a bit controversial as well. A few of them left the church and retracted their testimony of having seen the plates (though their testament is printed in the front of every Book of Mormon). Other problems occur. Such as the fact that there are a number of King James Bible verses in the Book of Mormon. However, these verses contain the exact grammatical and other errors as the version available to Joseph Smith (suggesting he just copied the parts he liked). Hope that answers your questions.

[gHari 0]

Yes, Gauracandra Prabhu, thank you for the answers. I had another more personal question and that related to why you are so fascinated and knowledgeable on this topic.

[Gauracandra 1]

Oh absolutely. A while back I got it into my head that there were reasons why religions succeed and fail (this would actually be a good topic we can start). My goal was to figure out what are the structural, philosophical, and historical reasons that some religions succeed and others fail. So I started researching various religions and making notes about their culture, customs, social structure, organizational structure etc.... Nothing real scientific, but things that would catch my eye (real concrete, specific points). My goal was to figure out how we can make Krsna Consciousness a successful religion. There are those who will say just chant Hare Krsna. I believe in the old adage "God helps those who help themselves".

 

Now Mormons are interesting because they are a very successful, new religion. They have a very interesting organizational hierarchy, leadership succession, and tools to maintain discipline among the rank and file. In addition, there were 3 splits (as mentioned) and we can see why one group succeeded and the other two didn't.

 

For instance, the Reorganized Church believes their prophet was a true prophet, but then fell into apostasy. Essentially, they say they are followers of their founder, but that their founder was wrong etc... And they are dying. I see alot of that in Iskcon, and the broader Gaudiya Vaisnava community, where we have all these mental speculators who want to "change with the times" attacking Srila Prabhupada in many overt and subtle ways. You don't build a house the whole world can live in by attacking its foundation (founder).

 

There are some ideas that could directly be implemented, and others that are just interesting. There are many points that I think are needed to create a successful religion. But key among them I would say is to establish a sense of "peoplehood". That is you need to connect the past to the future. Joseph Smith did this in many ways (for instance setting up the past, like the Garden of Eden, in the future - America). We need a way as devotees to define ourselves as a people, moving together towards a common destiny. Something that really gives us a sense of community and shared destiny. The problem I see is that we emerged at a point when communication and travel allowed the gathering of thousands of people who are completely different from one another. We have so much diversity that we don't have a common cultural background. This is difficult in forging a unique identity as a people.

 

There are other philosophical, organizational ideas etc... but that has been my main motivation. I want to know what we need to do, in very specific points, in order to succeed. I really want Krsna Consciousness to endure and succeed into the future.

 

Gauracandra

[gHari 0]

see below

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-04-2002).]

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Dear Gaurachandra:

 

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

This is a cool string you are giving good service.

 

As you have noted this faith is growing among affluent people esp. Americans.

 

The features of this faith that are attractive are as you pointed out:

 

1. Who doesn't want to be God?

 

2. The Temples and seceret rituals.

 

The reality is the Mormon church is much different than the calculated tv ads pushing family first etc., ideas.

 

You mentioned that there is a connection to masonic ritual -- there is outright occultisim at the center of the mormon faith.

 

At least the masonic platfrom is a 'universal' non-denominational group seeking illumination -- not godhood.

 

It should be noted that the baptisim of the dead is really a ritual and opportunity for disembodied entities to recieve a body without the birth process.

 

The God of the bible is Brahma the creator -- any amount of reading in the torah will reveal that.

 

Lord Jesus is an impowered incarnation of God. Yet I believe that he is the son of Brahma and he is from Brahma Loka.

 

Lord Jesus did not start an institution -- Saul the zealous hebrew did when he was so-called saved one day.

 

The history of what happened to the original followers of Lord Jesus is well knowen.

 

There is a point also that mormons are doing the cow sacrifices in the temples as well -- as in ancient solomon temple in Jerusalem.

 

It is not only water that is used in those baptismals...

 

There is more to be said on this and I will soon I have not enough time here...

 

Your servant,

 

Bhakta don

[Gauracandra 1]

Thanks for the kind words Don. I’ll post, as I get time, other interesting angles on the Mormon religion. I think it is a very interesting religion if nothing else, and some objective observers have declared that it will be the first major religion since the Prophet Mohammed walked the earth. Their goal, if I recall correctly, is 250 million members by 2050 (right now they are at 11 million, but are said to be ahead of schedule). My advice – buy real estate in Utah If nothing else, if Salt Lake will be the new Mecca to 250 million people on planet earth, you should be able to charge good rents

[Guest guest]

Shab-

 

Think about what you just posted. There is nothing flawed with the discourse excepts mans inability to comprehend the discourse. Think hard about what you just wrote. There is a big piece to the puzzle that you don't have. Seek the truth and lean not unto thine own understanding.