Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 26, 2001 Report Share Posted January 26, 2001 "If some of these stories are allegories so it means everything is not to be taken litteraly." Even in the Puranas there are stories that are allegorical, such as the story of Puranjana in Srimad Bhagavatam. A city with nine gates is described that is symbolic of the body and its nine holes. When the scriptures speak in an allegorical manner, they always directly state this fact (that it is an allegory) either before or after the story. Thus we cannot consider other stories in the Puranas to be only symbolic. Another point is that when we have a statement in scriptures that apparently contradicts another statement in the scriptures, we need to look closely to see if there is a secondary meaning to one of the statements that may harmonize both views. This point is explained nicely in the sanskrit text "Mayavada-shata Dushani", which can be read online here in the library section. In that text it explains under what circumstances it is appropriate to accept a secondary meaning over the primary meaning. When one Vedic text says the lunar eclipse is the shadow of the earth, and another says it is the floating head of an immortal demon that tries to swallow the moon, we should keep the above point in mind to harmonize the contradiction. A third point is that some statements in the scripture are poetic and not literal. Just because the poetic description may be symbolic, it does not mean the person being described by the poetry is symbolic. Even in modern language we find this practice. Also, there are other statements that are indirect and coded. This is stated by Lord Krishna in the 11th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. Finally, the most important point is that the vedic descriptions are multi dimensional, and sometimes higher dimensions contradict our lower experience. For example the earth is described as a flat plane, and its geography is described in detail. At the same time we find references to the earth as being a globe, and if we see any ancient Varaha temple, we can find carvings of Varaha holding a round earth on His tusks. From these stone carvings we can see that even thousands of years ago the indian scholars knew the earth was round despite finding opposite descriptions in the cosmology portions of Vedic texts. It requires internal vision to harmonize differing multi-dimensional statements in the scriptures. Thus it is not possible for people to just read the scriptures as books and understand the conclusions. "It seems to me that the expanding mouvement of our universe and the billions of billions of light years between each galaxies will have a hard time to fit in the stem of a lotus flower (due to his shape). " Unless the stem is simultaneously expanding (or growing) with the universe. Or unless there is huge vacant space within the stem yet to be occupied. There are countless possibilities that would all be speculative. All bodies go through six transformations, including the universal body. These transformations of bodies, as mentioned by Sri Prabhupada in his Bhagavad gita commentary, are: They are manifested (born), they grow, they maintain for sometime, they produce effects, they gradually dwindles, and then the vanish. In the Bhagavad Gita the soul is called kuta-stha, or steady, becuase it does not undergo these six transformations which the body is subjected to. This refers both to the individual soul, and Vishnu, who is the soul of the universe. The universe's expansion, and later it's retraction are products of these six transformations of matter. "I absolutely do not know what is the absolute truth, but the fact is I have a hard time to meditate or serve in pure devotion an allegory. Infortunately I need to have something concrete to meditate upon, even if it is the sign of this age of Kali." I find it interesting that as we progress from one age to the next, the object of worship becomes more and more perceivable. For example, in the Satya-yuga, the process for self-realization involved meditation on the Lord in the heart. In the Treta-yuga the process for self-realization involved offering ingredients into the sacrificial fire, which was more perceivable than the Lord in the heart. In the Dvapara yuga, the process for self-realization involved worship of the deity in the temple, which again was more perceivable or "solid" than the sacrificial fire. But in the Kali yuga, the process for self-realization is chanting the names of Hari and the object again becomes subtle - non-visible. It is understandable that as one's qualities degrade over the ages, and as one's inner awareness becomes less, one would need to take shelter in a more perceivable object. Of course the actual object is the same Supreme Lord in all cases, but the ability to perceive Him becomes easier for more conditioned entities. Yet in the Kali yuga, when all good qualities are lost, the object of worship again becomes intermediately subtle (as sound), almost like a wave to again bridge the gap between the previous process and that of the next Satya-yuga, meditation. From mental, to visual, to solid, to sound, and again to mental. But despite being more subtle than the solid and visible objects of worship, still it remains more perceivable by its direct results. This is something that is amazing even to the rishis of Naimisharanya forest. Thus while externally the object of worship may be less perceivable, internally it is the most perceivable of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted January 26, 2001 Report Share Posted January 26, 2001 I have often taken the view that God reveals himself based on time, place and circumstances. With this view in mind I have no problem harmonizing many different religious views. Take for instance Native Americans. Based on their culture Divinity was revealed in certain ways. Perhaps they view the Great White Buffalo as being sacred. Should I consider them wrong? No. In the Bhagavad Gita Krsna shows Arjuna his universal form which contained within it all the demigods, planets, etc.... Now some of the stories Native Americans have may be allegorical but speak of a higher reality that their shamans can perceive. I don't think it would be proper for me to consider these myth just because I can't perceive it or relate to it particularly. Just a few quick thoughts before I head out to work. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dd77 Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Hi jndas, I have well read your expanation on the differents types of meditation for the differents ages, but that does not explain me why in this Kali yuga we have the hardest process of realisation compare to our low ability and lake of faith. In all the main religion we will find: First of all you have to have faith in God then later you will have results. But infortunatly 99% of the leaders of religions have use this to misguide and exploite poeple simplicity and honesty. How God can let this go on and how can we know that we are not victims of such a situation. Also what is the benefit for those sincere who are misguided ? Devil advocate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Actually, the chanting of the Holy Names of God is considered the easiest process for attaining Him in Vedantic philosophy. There is no restriction based on caste, sex, economic status etc.... We simply have to develop love of God. Unfortunately, there are always those who wish to deceive in every religion. Because of this it is important to listen carefully and properly discriminate those who are simply trying to attract power and those who are offering sincere guidance. Unlike some other religions, the Vedantic philosophy does not give a person just one chance to attain salvation. While a person may be taken down various paths, if he is developing some level of purity, then in his next life he will continue in his search from that level of purity. The key is trying to follow the essense of true religious philosophy like mercy, self-restraint, humility, love etc.... Love God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.... The rest is just details. At least this is my understanding. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dd77 Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 Hi Gauracandar "We simply have to develop love of God" "We simply have to develop love of God" "We simply have to develop love of God" Yes, in fact it is so simple !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all we have to do. Yes, but who did it ? Do you know someone who did it truly ? What I mean is that we allways hear that: Chant the Holy Name and developp love of God. This is theorycal. I know many persons who, at their manner sincerely try to develop love of God but who are now either chanting in front of their television or have just give it up. Why? Because they never develop any love for God by chanting japa. On the contrary their has been (and their is still) many persons chanting their rounds that have done so much harm to simple and sincere persons. Just see what we have seen in ISKCON: Sannyasis murderers, people in charge of children (gurukula) having sex with them, parents separated from their children (how do you want kids develop love of God if they do not have the love of their parents !!!!!!) And so many other ugly things. I do not want to reduce ISKCON to that only of course, but if the process is "so simple" to just chant Hare Krsna and develop love of God how can this happened? The name of God is so strong (says jndas somewhere in the forum) that it is stronger that any offense. For sure we are not qualified for PURE chanting, but if the Holy Name is so strong how is this that so many persons who are chanting are just passing away from what is really spiritual life ? Devil Advocate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 In my opinion and from what we see, it does not work. It is pretty obvious. Mantra, Japa, Tapa, Kirtana, Sankirtana, Bhajane, Dhyana, etc will not develop love for God. They all are forms of expression of love (that is already there) towards God. I'll repeat, "for Love that is already present, ONLY". Love has to happen; it cannot be cultivated and intensified intentionally. And that happens only to one in a billion perhaps. And it happens instantly. Not gradually over a period of time. A study of all the great religious personalities will show that. And that is why our Hindu religion failed many times in the past and had to be revived periodically by Gurus, Avatars and Acharyas. Over time people realize that the suggested method does not work. Then a new Guru with a new method steps in and pumps it up again. But again with time, the enthusiasm wanes. Someone else comes along and the chakkar continues. It does not work because they are trying to give life to a dead thing. Trying methods to achieve something that cannot be achieved. Anyone who reads the history of our religion can observe this for themselves. There is no 'How' here. It has to happen on it's own. But people can't sit simply; they have to be engaged in some activity. So people pray and wait in the hope that something is going to happen because of their prayers. They live in hope and die with their hopes. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 <<"We simply have to develop love of God" <<Yes, in fact it is so simple !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <<That is all we have to do. <<Yes, but who did it ? <<Do you know someone who did it truly ? <<What I mean is that we allways hear that: Chant the Holy Name and developp <<love of God. <<This is theorycal. It is not theoretical. In point of fact I do know someone who did it truly. I hesitate to mention his name because you will only dismiss his devotion and raise questions for the sake of questions like “Prove to me he had love of God” rather than sincerely inquiring . I can not prove that anyone had love of God. I truly know no one’s heart. I can only look at their life dedicated to the Lord, listen to their philosophy and with the intelligence God has given me draw my own conclusions as to their advancement. But for your information the saint I speak of is Srila Gaur Govinda Swami Maharaj, the dedicated disciple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj. One can study the life of a sadhu to understand that spiritual life is not theoretical. It is more than academic knowledge. While I can not fully describe the saintly characteristics of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj, his life of devotion, and his deep application of the process of chanting the holy names of the Lord in this small posting (or even many postings) I will try to give you some understanding. Let me state that I accept the words of Lord Sri Krsna when he says “And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.” Through a life dedicated to Lord Sri Krsna, Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj attained him. I now present to you The Transcendental Passing of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj from the book “The Embankment of Separation” in a section called “A Life of Devotion”. ********************************************* On February 9th, 1996, the holy appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati, two senior devotees requested an appointment to see Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. They had never spoken with him before, but they had become eager to hear from him after reading some of his books. As if by providential arrangement, they entered his room at 6.00 p.m. and submissively inquired, "Why did Caitanya Mahaprabhu stay in Jagannatha Puri?" He laughed with delight and began to explain the confidential significance of Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In answer to this question he lovingly described the pain of separation felt by Radha and Krsna when Krsna was away from Vrndavana. He had often narrated this moving pastime as recorded in Chapter Eight of this great work, "The Embankment of Separation". Enchanting all the devotees in his room with the nectarean topics of Krsna, he gradually unfolded the pastime to the point where Radha and Krsna were finally united after Their long separation. He described how Krsna became so ecstatic upon seeing Radharani that He manifested a form with big round eyes, known as Lord Jagannatha. With a choked voice he said, "Then the eyes of Krsna fell upon the eyes of Radharani. Eye-to-Eye union." Overwhelmed with love for Radha and Krsna, he apologized with folded hands, "Please excuse me, I cannot speak". In a barely audible voice he gave his final instruction: "Nama Koro! Nama Koro! (Chant the holy name)" All the devotees began to chant as their spiritual master lay back on his bed, breathing very slowly and deeply. A servant nearby placed a picture of Gopal Jiu [his childhood deity] in his hand. Then, gazing lovingly at the picture of his worshipable deity, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami called out, "Gopal!" and departed for the spiritual sky to be united with his beloved Lord. Every day before Srimad-Bhagavatam class, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami would sing a song he had learned as a boy. Now his prayer was fulfilled. paramananda he madhava padungaluchi makaranda se-makaranda pana-kari anande bolo 'hari hari' harinka name vandha vela pari karive caka-dola se-caka-dolanka-payare mana-mo rahu nirantare mana mo nirantare rahu 'ha-krsna' boli jiva jau 'ha-krsna' boli jau jiva mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava "O supremely blissful Madhava! The nectar is coming from Your lotus feet. Drinking that nectar, I blissfully sing 'Hari! Hari!' With the name of Hari I am binding a raft on which Lord Jagannatha will ferry me across this ocean of material existence. My mind always remains at the lotus feet of that Lord Jagannatha who has very large round eyes. In this way, I call out "Ha Krsna!" and give up my life. O husband of Radharani, please deliver me." The sadhu never speaks theoretically. ********************************************* The sadhu never speaks theoretically. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 I apologize but my original posting did not make it fully intact so I'm posting it again. ********************************************* "We simply have to develop love of God" Yes, in fact it is so simple !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all we have to do. Yes, but who did it ? Do you know someone who did it truly ? What I mean is that we allways hear that: Chant the Holy Name and developp love of God. This is theorycal. ********************************************* It is not theoretical. In point of fact I do know someone who did it truly. I hesitate to mention his name because you will only dismiss his devotion and raise questions for the sake of questions like “Prove to me he had love of God” rather than sincerely inquiring . I can not prove that anyone had love of God. I truly know no one’s heart. I can only look at their life dedicated to the Lord, listen to their philosophy and with the intelligence God has given me draw my own conclusions as to their advancement. But for your information the saint I speak of is Srila Gaur Govinda Swami Maharaj, the dedicated disciple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj. One can study the life of a sadhu to understand that spiritual life is not theoretical. It is more than academic knowledge. While I can not fully describe the saintly characteristics of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj, his life of devotion, and his deep application of the process of chanting the holy names of the Lord in this small posting (or even many postings) I will try to give you some understanding. Let me state that I accept the words of Lord Sri Krsna when he says “And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.” Through a life dedicated to Lord Sri Krsna, Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj attained him. I now present to you The Transcendental Passing of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj from the book “The Embankment of Separation” in a section called “A Life of Devotion”. ********************************************* On February 9th, 1996, the holy appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati, two senior devotees requested an appointment to see Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. They had never spoken with him before, but they had become eager to hear from him after reading some of his books. As if by providential arrangement, they entered his room at 6.00 p.m. and submissively inquired, "Why did Caitanya Mahaprabhu stay in Jagannatha Puri?" He laughed with delight and began to explain the confidential significance of Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In answer to this question he lovingly described the pain of separation felt by Radha and Krsna when Krsna was away from Vrndavana. He had often narrated this moving pastime as recorded in Chapter Eight of this great work, "The Embankment of Separation". Enchanting all the devotees in his room with the nectarean topics of Krsna, he gradually unfolded the pastime to the point where Radha and Krsna were finally united after Their long separation. He described how Krsna became so ecstatic upon seeing Radharani that He manifested a form with big round eyes, known as Lord Jagannatha. With a choked voice he said, "Then the eyes of Krsna fell upon the eyes of Radharani. Eye-to-Eye union." Overwhelmed with love for Radha and Krsna, he apologized with folded hands, "Please excuse me, I cannot speak". In a barely audible voice he gave his final instruction: "Nama Koro! Nama Koro! (Chant the holy name)" All the devotees began to chant as their spiritual master lay back on his bed, breathing very slowly and deeply. A servant nearby placed a picture of Gopal Jiu [his childhood deity] in his hand. Then, gazing lovingly at the picture of his worshipable deity, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami called out, "Gopal!" and departed for the spiritual sky to be united with his beloved Lord. Every day before Srimad-Bhagavatam class, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami would sing a song he had learned as a boy. Now his prayer was fulfilled. paramananda he madhava padungaluchi makaranda se-makaranda pana-kari anande bolo 'hari hari' harinka name vandha vela pari karive caka-dola se-caka-dolanka-payare mana-mo rahu nirantare mana mo nirantare rahu 'ha-krsna' boli jiva jau 'ha-krsna' boli jau jiva mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava "O supremely blissful Madhava! The nectar is coming from Your lotus feet. Drinking that nectar, I blissfully sing 'Hari! Hari!' With the name of Hari I am binding a raft on which Lord Jagannatha will ferry me across this ocean of material existence. My mind always remains at the lotus feet of that Lord Jagannatha who has very large round eyes. In this way, I call out "Ha Krsna!" and give up my life. O husband of Radharani, please deliver me." The sadhu never speaks theoretically. ********************************************* The sadhu never speaks theoretically. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 A good example on this forum is JayasriRadhey. She ALREADY has that love for God, and while she is doing her Kirtana, Bhajane, etc, she is simply expressing that love. That is what they all are, forms of expression. But if someone who does not have that love and tries Kirtana and does 16 rounds of chanting daily hoping that love will gradually happen [from 0 to Infinity], I can safely say that it will not happen. After 16 years of 16 rounds daily, the person will be exactly the same as before. And if they try more than 16 rounds, they wil get bored, because it a sensual activity. I don't know if anyone gets this, but it is simple and true, if you think about it. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasha Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 Haribol, Gauracandra, I really feel my heart melting while reading your story on the passing of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. I never have heard this story, and I thank you very much for haviug narrated it. Hi, shvu, Don't you feel in your heart something different when you read this kind of story than when you read a dry philosophical point trying to prouve that there is no possibility to develop love of God by any way you are trying? If not, that mean that you are very stone-like hearted, and I sincerely have pity for you, because you are really missing something If we where able to always follow our inner feelings we would already being back in the Original Realm of God. But infortunetly we always went to rationalise of never listen to the signs that God is giving in our heart. He is constantly speaking to us, but we rarely listen to Him. Simply by saying that we can only express a love for God which is already existant (like in the example of JayaSriRadhey or great Saint) means that you recognise that love for God exist. If it exist that mean that it can be improve. Now you have to find the best way to attain your goal. You cannot stay eternally in the same position, either materially or spiritually, you have to move up or down. To tell you frankly, I am a very doubtfull person concerning the Absolute Truth, and the existence of God in the form of Krsna. But by I do not know what, I am always like "force" to come back to Him each time I want to deviate from His path. And by His inconceivable mercy I feel some kind of taste while calling Him on my japa. I would have a hard time to convince someone of the existence of Krsna, but I can tell you that I would be blind and deaf if I was saying that God never manifest to someone willing to know about him. This cannot be communicate by words, just as you cannot communicate to somebody the experience of the taste of a meal unless he is tasting it himself. I hope that one day you may have this feeling, then you will stop this dry philosophical speculation on the love of God. JUST FOLLOW YOUR HEART, NOT YOUR MIND. JaysriRadhey, thank you for your nectar Yours Dasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 ********************************************* I really feel my heart melting while reading your story on the passing of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. I never have heard this story, and I thank you very much for haviug narrated it. ********************************************* Haribol Dasha, I'm glad you enjoyed this. Believe me Srila Gaur Govinda Swami has such a beautiful soul. If you get the chance you must pick up a copy of "The Embankment of Separation". His disciples publish some of the best looking publications out there (in terms of layout, artwork etc....). It is beginning to end unbelievably sweet. Trust me you won't be able to put it down. Other publications include "Sadhu-Sanga, the Birthplace of Bhakti", "Krsna Prema Bhakti", and "Gopal Jiu, the Beloved Diety of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami". In Gopal Jiu the story of the entire lineage of Gaur Govinda Swami's family is recorded and how they first received the diety from a brahman from Vrindavan. Its a small book, but it is a precious gem. The diety itself is several hundred years old and the Gadai-giri family (Gaur Govinda Swami's) is reknowned as expert Kirtaneers. Several hundred years ago, the King of Orissa even made a public recording that anytime the Gadai-giri family comes to Jagannath Puri, they are to be given access to perform for Lord Jagannath at the Jagannath Puri temple. It really is a wonderful book. Perhaps I'll post some of it here. And if you ever heard Srila Gaur Govinda Swami sing, it is unlike anything you have heard. It has nothing to do with formality, or the rules of singing. He has his own unique style. Anyways, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Oh yeah, his disciples also publish a fantastic publication called "Sri Krsna Kathamrita". Again, some of the best artwork, layouts, stories, esoteric information. This magazine is really gorgeous. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted February 5, 2001 Report Share Posted February 5, 2001 Hi Dasha, ---- Don't you feel in your heart something different when you read this kind of story than when you read a dry philosophical point trying to prouve that there is no possibility to develop love of God by any way you are trying? ---- I have heard several such stories before and would get greatly inspired when I was a kid. That was when I used to see only one side of the coin and think that all this stuff HAD to be true. But now things are different. Not that I became intelligent or anything, but now I see both sides of the coin. You would be surprised to know what a difference that makes. ---- If not, that mean that you are very stone-like hearted, and I sincerely have pity for you, because you are really missing something. ---- Thanks. --- He is constantly speaking to us, but we rarely listen to Him. --- Is he ? Unfortunately, I don't hear a thing. I have to first hear something to begin listening. No Sukriti, perhaps ? --- ... means that you recognise that love for God exist. --- Of course. But I don't think that it can be cultivated. Why ? Because all the people whom I believe to be great devotees did not go through a gradual process of cultivating love. (According to their biographies, at least) I don't go around telling people that their Love is false. I just maintain that Love has to happen naturally. ---- Now you have to find the best way to attain your goal. ---- Like I said above, I don't see a way out. ---- I hope that one day you may have this feeling, then you will stop this dry philosophical speculation on the love of God. ---- I am being Rational. Which is all one can do, when one does not feel that love. Of course, I can go around telling people that Love for God is great and to begin Sadhana and so on, but they would all be empty words. I would just be parroting the books and the Gurus. What I don't feel; I cannot talk about. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted February 5, 2001 Report Share Posted February 5, 2001 Hi Dasha, I forgot to ask you this, What do you mean by 'dry' philosophical? I would like to know what dry means here. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasha Posted February 5, 2001 Report Share Posted February 5, 2001 Hi shvu Don't worry it was just a kind of provocation !!! ------- What do you mean by 'dry' philosophical? I would like to know what dry means here. ------- What I mean is that philosophy may bring satisfaction to the mind, but not to the heart. It may give intellectual satisfaction but the heart do not feel filled up. Love of God must filled your heart up because it is the his real need. We may try to report our loving tendancy to so many things (children, wife, work, sport, even philosophy), but it will never give us this feeling of ful'filment that love of God procure. It is like for a salad. It my be a very good salad, but if there is no salad-dressing, something is missing. No body wants of a "dry" salad. We do not want "dry" love of God. ------- But I don't think that it can be cultivated. Why ? Because all the people whom I believe to be great devotees did not go through a gradual process of cultivating love. (According to their biographies, at least) ------- Do their biographies speak about what they did in their previous lives ? Generally not. Howewer I am sure that you have heard stories like this of Narada Muni or many other great sages who where very ordinary persons in there previous life and became great devotees after having get the divine grace of God or a pure devotee. What does mean KARMA: That you are leaving now what you prepared in your previous life, and you are preparing now what you will be in you next life. And in this way, step by step, you progress toward you goal, whatever it is. If by chance you get in touch with love of God then you are "catch". It may take many other lives, but once it is started by the mercy of any devotee, you will not be able to stop the process and it will go on up to the final destination. Of course if you see a devotee during a brief period of time (and a life IS a brief period of time) it may seem to you that he is not really advancing in his love of God. But this is material consideration, because you cannot mesure love of god in somebody just by looking at him. ------- Is he ? Unfortunately, I don't hear a thing. I have to first hear something to begin listening. No Sukriti, perhaps ? ------- If you receive the bi-monthly letters of JNDAS you have certainly read that there are differents level of hearing. Hearing do not only refer to an external sound. Did you never heard about listening to our consciousness ? Are you sure that you never did something and there was somebody inside telling you: "No you should not do it" ? You may call it consciousness, but it may also be God under the form of Paramatma who is situated in everyone's heart. Of course you have to be very attentive, but if you want to hear Him you will. ------- Not that I became intelligent or anything, but now I see both sides of the coin. You would be surprised to know what a difference that makes. ------- I know the difference that makes, specially that intelligence which is indispensable to understand spiritual life can also be your worst ennemy when it is to understand "simple" things as how to simply love Krsna. By my own experience I can tellyou that it is very exciting to be on a mental or intellectual plateform, but to come back to the first point of this text, it does not nourish our inner self. JAYA RADHA JAYA KRSNA ALL GLORIES TO THE DEVOTEES OF THE LORD. Your servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted February 5, 2001 Report Share Posted February 5, 2001 Hi Dasha, I accept all your points. In my case, I don't feel that my heart is empty and needs filling up. And I don't understand the concept of re-incarnation. So now I have to wait for that magical thing to happen, when I will suddenly get inspired or develop faith. --- If by chance you get in touch with love of God... --- Like you have said, it has to happen by chance. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasha Posted February 6, 2001 Report Share Posted February 6, 2001 Hi shvu, Yes in one sense love of God comes by chance. But you can also provoque this chance. Paramatma is situated within our heart and He is simply waiting that we turn our face towards Him. He is the personnified Patience. He can wait for us as long as we want. He is always trying to manifesting . But we are not ready yet to perceive Him. However, all of us, if we discuss on this forum that mean that we are looking for something. At least we have a theoretical approche of God. NOW IF WE WANT TO GO FURTHER WE HAVE TO ASK HIM: PLEASE HELP ME TO DEVELOP LOVE FOR YOU !!!!!!! This is all what he is looking for. Dear shvu, just try sincerely and you will see that God reciprocates immediately. Krsna says in Bhagavad Gita: "According to their abandon I manifest myself to My devotees". ------ So now I have to wait for that magical thing to happen, when I will suddenly get inspired or develop faith. ------ Infortunately it does not come suddendly by magic. God will never force you. IT AS TO COME FROM YOU. ONLY YOUR STRONG DESIRE WILL MAKES IT COME OUT. As far as your heart is concerne, if it is already full then you will feel overfloaded by divine love. Cheerfully Dasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggohil Posted February 7, 2001 Report Share Posted February 7, 2001 Jai Sri Krsna I did not have love for god, but I managed to develope it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viji_53 Posted February 8, 2001 Report Share Posted February 8, 2001 Replace I & mine with you & yours. You can easily develop love for God. if you know Hindi, listen to Meerabai's bajans, if you know Tamil listen to Thiruppavai, if you know Telugu listen to Annamacharya kritis & if you know Kannada listen to Purandardas kritis etc, you will be able to develop love for God. Do you know what is the meaning of the word ego? edging God out. Hari Bhol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Shakta Posted February 8, 2001 Report Share Posted February 8, 2001 Previously posted by Shvu "So now I have to wait for that magical thing to happen, when I will suddenly get inspired or develop faith." There is a good story in Chaitanya-bhagavata Adi-khanda Chapter 16: Sri Haridasa-mahima-varnana (Description of Sri Haridasa's Glories)... One day, in the home of a prominent person, the snake-bite physician was dancing in many ways. Accompanied by a mrdanga and cymbals, and surrounded by many people singing loudly, he chanted fearsome mantras. By divine arrangement, Haridasa came there and saw, on one side, the snake-bite physician dancing. Then, called by the power of the mantra, Vasuki, the king snakes, entered that person's body and made it dance in many wonderful ways. Loudly singing in karuna-raga, the snake-bite physician dramatically danced Lord Krsna's pastimes in Kaliya Lake. Hearing of his Lord's glories, Haridasa at once fell unconscious. He did not breate at all. Then, in a moment, he regained consciousness, loudly roared, and happily danced without limit. Seeing Haridasa's ecstatic symptoms, the snake-bite physician stopped dancing. He stayed by one of the walls. Haridasa Thakura rolled about on the ground. He manifested wonderful ecstatic symptoms of weeping, trembling, and standing up of his body hair's. Hearing of His master's glories, saintly Haridasa roared in ecstasy. Surrounding Haridasa, everyone happily sang. Staing to one side, th snake-bite physician, his hand's folded, gazed at Haridasa. After some momeents, Haridasa stopped his ecstatic symptoms. Then the snake-bite physician returned and resumed his dance. Everyone there felt great transcendental bliss. Everyone happily annointed their limbs with the dust that had touched Haridasa's feet. A cunning and deceitful brahmana there thought in his heart, "Now I will dance". "this barbarian fool dances, and all these little people become devoted to him." Covering his true intent, the brahmana fell to the ground and pretended to be unconscious. When he fell down before him, the snake-bite physician, his heart full of anger, beat him violently. The snake-bite physician grabbed him by the neck and violently beat him with a stick. The man had no way to save himself. Suffering great pain from the blows of the stick, the brahmana called out "Father! Father!" and fled...Then the snake-bite physician happily reutrned to his dancing. Astonishment was born in eveyrone's heart. Folding their hands, eveyrone asked the sanke-bite physician, "lLook. Tell us: Why did you beat the brahmana? Why did you wait with foled hands while Haridasa danced? Please tell us." Appearing in the snake-bite physician's mouth, a snake who is a great devotee of Lord Visnu then described the power and glory of Haridasa. He said, "The answer to your question is a great secret. Although it should not be told, I must tell it to you. "When you saw Haridasa Thakura display the symptoms of ecstasy, you felt great devotion to him. "seeing this, the envious brahmana threw himself on the ground. He broke the happiness of my dancing. What envious person has the power to do that? Thinking himself a rival of Haridasa, he put on this false show. Therefore I punished him. "Thinking, 'Everyoen will think I am a great saint', he pretended to be in ecstasy" "This kind of cheating does not please Lord Krsna. Only a person who is honest can attain true devotion to Lord Krsna." Moral of the story: "Only a person who is honest can attain true devotion to Lord Krsna." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted February 9, 2001 Report Share Posted February 9, 2001 Hi Bhakta Shakta, I must say that I don't see a connection between my statement and your story. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Shakta Posted February 10, 2001 Report Share Posted February 10, 2001 Sorry Shvu. I do not mean to imply that you are dishonest with Krishna. I found inspiration in the story, so I posted it. Rupa Goswami defines uttama-bhakti has bhakti which is unenveloped by any desire for bhukti, mukti, or jnani. It is a desire to please Krishna without the slightest hint of our own enjoyment. Anyway, back to your other postings. I'm sorry that you have lost faith or that Krishna's causeless grace has not fell on you. Dr. Kapoor in 'Experiences in Bhakti: The Science Celestial' expounds: "Grace is no doubt independent of sadhana. It is causeless as far as the efforts of the sadhaka to win the grace of God are concerned. But it s not causeless so far as love is concerned. It is the warmth of the love of the Bhakta that causes the heart of Bhagvan to melt and flow in the form of grace." ---- Shvu: "Like you have said, it has to happen by chance." I don't know of anything that i've learned about without an authority. My school books are written by authorities who have a Ph.d. on the subject. I learned to eat and defecate from my parents. Everything I know comes from some authority. Even when we look at the most successful people in the world materially or spiritually, they had an authority who taught them. Michael Jordan became a great basketball player from Dean Smith at UNC. Aristotle became a great philosopher from Plato. The Williams sisters became great tennis players from their Dad. We see that all these people approached an authority to become expert in their path. Same applies to becoming expert in Bhakti. We see that Narada Muni became expert by serving advanced sadhus. In most hagiographical literatures of GV saints, we see that they had some authority to teach them. If you are really HONESTLY wanting to experience Bhakti then you have to approach the authority who is expert on it and humbly inquire from him/her. That's the process of attaining knowledge and becoming great. Sri Ananta Das Babaji at Radha-Kund is respected by everyone as a first-class Vaisnava. Why not approach him and inquire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Shakta Posted February 11, 2001 Report Share Posted February 11, 2001 Look what i found Shvu. This validates my Theory of Authority. From The Saints of Bengal by Dr. Kapoor in Chapter entitled Sri Radharamana Carana Dasa Deva. Pyari: "But Maharaja, I would like to know one thing. If someone is so fallen and weak that he can neither practice Raganuga-Bhakti nor Vaidhi-Bhakti, is there no way by which he can attain the lotus feet of the Lord? Babaji: "Why not? Take the example of a similar situation in the mundane sphere. Suppose you are the owner of a big estate, which has to be managed well and there are a number of cases concerning the estate in the court, but you are illeterate or mentally and physically so weak that you cannot do anything, then what will you?" Pyari: "It is easy. I shall give attorneyship to a capable person, who will do everything for me." Babaji: "The same is true of the spiritual world. If you are not capable of doing anything, you should give attorneyship to someone, who is capable of doing everything for you. You should surrender yourself completely and sincerley, and depend wholly upon him. It would be his responsibility to see that you realize Krsna." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted February 12, 2001 Report Share Posted February 12, 2001 Hi Bhakta Shakta, Thanks for the pointers. I will keep them in mind. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Shakta Posted February 12, 2001 Report Share Posted February 12, 2001 The sun is shining always. It's the person's responsiblity to put himself in the right place to get sunshine. Similarly, God and His saint's mercy is always available. It's the inquirers responsibility to put himself in the right place to get It. It's not that Krishna favors a few jiva's and just outcastes others. He wants everyone to attain him, but he can only reciprocate mutually. Radharani wants everyone to experience what she experiences, love of Krishna. Some people have figured it out, others are still transmigrating, body through body, trying to figure it out. Eventually we get to human body and we finally have a good chance to actually 'figure it out'. Vedic knowledge and intelligence won't get you far with Krishna. But when utilized properly for what they are meant to be used for, they can put us in the position to get Divine Grace. -Bhakta Shakta das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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