An open challenge to all "Notrious" people

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

If you can think a stone as Satan and throw stones over it

 

Wby can't

 

We think a stone as God and throw flowers over it?

 

Anybody willing to provide a logical and rational reply without beating the bush or copying and pasting whole website which does not even touch the above question?

[Sephiroth 0]

If you can think a stone as Satan and throw stones over it

 

Wby can't we think a stone as God and throw flowers over it?

 

One is act of Love and Mental focusing of Love toward God through Idol while another is act of Hatred and focusing Hatred and Anger toward some unknown "force". One is Devotion while another is Placebo Effect.

 

When Hindus make idols and picture it as God and worship it, their mental focus is toward God they pictured in their mind. From this focus, Love and Devotion is generated.

 

However, Muslims had been taught that they sin not because they are capable of sinning, but because some unknown force called "Satan" made them sin.

 

Therefore, when they throw stones toward another stone called Satan, what they are actually doing it place the blame on Satan for the bad things they had done. It is sort of Placebo Effect.

[barney 0]

For a Malaysian you have better brains than the Malays. I salute you. Credit should be given where it deserves. On other aspects I may have clashed with you but here I have to admit you are right.

 

OM NAMASHIVAYA

[Guest guest]

what is this analogy about throwing stones over a stone representing satan? i dont get this?

[maadhav 0]

excellent post! dhanyawad!

 

[Sephiroth 0]

It is "returning" sin back to the Cause of the Sin - sort of approach.

 

Muslims believe that Satan (and his minions) made them commit Sin, so by throwing stones at another stone which represent Satan, what they are doing is throwing their own sin back to Satan.

 

It's like - "You made me sin, now I returning the Sin back to you" approach.

 

Morale of this story supposed to be based on how their prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) or Yaakob (not sure) had chase away Satan when he came to tempt him.

 

Also, when Muslims see non-Muslims, what they see in us is that we are still carrying our sins around and this sins is the reason why we don't accept their religion. In their mind, whenever they pray to their God, their sins are forgiven.

 

So, we are sinners, they are divine (fools). Cute, huh?

 

Maadhav and Barney - Thanks.

[ajit12 0]

The ritual of throwing stones is done by all muslims during the Haj pilgrimage.This ritual is just one part of the Haj.

Mecca before prophet Mohmmad was an idol worshipping center of pilgrimage[During the time of Jahiliya as muslims call it. Hence the Urdu term Jahil which is uncouth.]

Prophet Mohd. retained the essential Haj ritual when he captured Mecca but removed the idol worship part of it .Hence the seven rounds around the Kabba.

Throwing stones at Satan or garland at an idol are essntially rituals and a true seeker of god would not place much valve to it.

Islam as an religion has very few restrictions about eating or other matters. But Islam is very very rigid about the rules what it has and there is no way to break even a small part of it.

Hinduism appears to be flexible because of a variety of gods and the ways of worshipping but it is not. Each creed or Panth is again very rigid about what to eat , what to worship ,whom to marry etc. Like vaishnavas fighting with Shivas or Dvatyes with advaityes.

End of the day all religons are made what they are by the followers a few centuries after the originater ot the prophet.Therefore there is know gaurantee that it will reflect what it was. Then again the originater may be wrong himself or he may be right for that period of time and not now.

[Sephiroth 0]

Islam as an religion has very few restrictions about eating or other matters. But Islam is very very rigid about the rules what it has and there is no way to break even a small part of it.

 

Islam is the most unflexible religion you can find in the world. Even Jews are not that rigid.

 

Islam stated on what you can eat, what you cannot eat, which food is clean and which is not, how to wash your backside, how to take shower after being with your wife and so many more nonsense which not necessary and full of superstition.

 

Take sitting down to toilet for example. Muslims are required to cover their heads because toilet is considered place where demons live and this demons attend to wipe sh!t on the human faces and body if not covered.

 

Food? Muslims are not allowed to eat in non-Muslim places because they believe that eating food which is not halal will form a sort of black clots which will clog up the human body and enable them to commit sin.

 

All this nonsense is dragging Muslims backward and you are saying that they are more flexible than Hindus? Go out of India and look at the World first, buddy before you condemn you own religion.

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

 

"Throwing stones at Satan or garland at an idol are essntially rituals"

 

Yes correct, one ritual is positive in that it loves Good qualities visualised as God and tries to increase it, while the other is negative in that it hates evil qualities visualised as Satan and tries to decrease it. So on the first glance itself both are not identical. May be we can argue that Arabs being much less culturally advanced than Indians had their negative ritual since it would be more appealing.

 

However then muslims have no right of calling or insulting others as idolaters, since they themselves are doing that.

 

Now what about our other thread where are the terms definition, why did you just convey your love to me and my family and had run away? started like a scholar and ended like a schooler?

 

[ajit12 0]

Dear Sephiroth,

Do not ascribe statements to me which I did not make.I never said that Islam is flexible.I said It is very rigid .On the other hand hinduism also is not flexible in practice.The restictions in both the religions are nonsense.the problem with Islam is that since the time 'IJetma' i.e. deciding about a religious issue through thinking was stopped in aprroximately 9th or 10th century it has become a very rigid religion.[ijtemma as it is done today is not what was done during the time of the first four Caliphs]

Hinduism on the other hand came under continous attck from the refomers such as Aryasamaj,Bramhosamaj and reformers sucha Raja Rammohan Roy,Maharshi Karve,Swami Dayanand and ofcourse Mahatma Gandhi.It has also been forced to change due to the pressure of Dalit movement.

Unfortunatly over the last 50 years once again rigid and fundamentlist sects and Swamis have taken over the mainstream of hinduism.

One of the most humerous documents which I came across was from 16th century in which the dispute between Shaivites and Vashnawas in Karnataka was referred by both to Badshah Ali Adilshah for a judgement.He has given his verdict on this dispute. how low we could sink.

Also the present fandamentalist trend in Islam has negeted the social reform movements of Baath party inSyria and Iraq,Gaal Abdul Nasser in Egypt and Mummar Gadfi in Libya.[Contrary to the popular concept he has been a reformist.]

When I am writing I generally give histrical fact which need not be my opinions.

Love to you Sephiroth

Dear Guest why don't you take a user name because then I can spot and interact with you better.i will write in that thread again. Love to you & your family

---Ajit12

[Sephiroth 0]

[Qoute]

Islam as an religion has very few restrictions about eating or other matters. But Islam is very very rigid about the rules what it has and there is no way to break even a small part of it.

 

Hinduism appears to be flexible because of a variety of gods and the ways of worshipping but it is not. Each creed or Panth is again very rigid about what to eat , what to worship ,whom to marry etc.

[/Qoute]

 

I never said that Islam is flexible.I said It is very rigid .On the other hand hinduism also is not flexible in practice.

 

From the above two statements, it is easy to formulate that what you meant was - Islam is not as rigid as Hindusm. You don't have to say it out openly.

 

I don't think you know anything about Hindusm (or Islam for that matter). I live and work with both Hindus and Muslims and I know how to compare their daily living.

 

In what way do you say that Hindusm is rigid? Explain that?

 

Unfortunatly over the last 50 years once again rigid and fundamentlist sects and Swamis have taken over the mainstream of hinduism.

 

GOOD. This is the time when they should look outside India toward Malaysia and the Eastern Countries and learn from this nations on how Religion should be treated and how Hindus should live.

 

I'm looking forward for a Vedic India. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Love to you Sephiroth

Please don't say things like this ... makes my skin crawl. Thank you.

[ajit12 0]

Quote'I don't think you know anything about Hindusm (or Islam for that matter). I live and work with both Hindus and Muslims and I know how to compare their daily living.'

 

In what way do you say that Hindusm is rigid? Explain that?'

Sephiroth, you do not know me so you have no authority to make such a statement about my knowledge.This reflects on you . Secondly you are drawing conclsions as you like.I have said both religions are rigid.Islam is very rigid you can not even break a small part of rituals.

You are looking at hinduism in adifferent way .Take any sect of hinduism .It is laid down in minute detail

1] whom to worship 2] how to worship 3] what stotras to recite4] whom to marry 4] what food you can have 6] how to have that food 7] with whom or in whose place to eat that food 8] how to perform you daily ablutions e.g. where to position your yagnopavitam while doing your ablutions.8]How other people of your own region but of a different sect are horrible[untouchability]. 9]Which temple to go 11] who can visit the temple 12] What awoman should do during her period & how she is again a horrible thing 12] how to dispose off the dead. 13] This rigidity goes to laughable extent how to apply your tilak on your forehead,Vertical or horizontal, vertical tilak people will do the same rigidly for generations together.14] Which veda to follow .A Shukla Yajurvedi brahmin will not in his lifetime touch Krishna Yajurveda ,leave alone other vedas 15] Why you should or should not travel.16]Why you should not cross oceans.16]touch, smell ,food or social meeting with evryone except your own sect is prohibited in many of the sects.17] how widows should live.

Reflect on this in a calm frame of mind .Hinduism appears to flexible because of so many castes, subcastes & panths.So it seems with so many gods,ways of worshipping & ways of living how flexible it is,but within a panth the religion is extremely rigid.This is what has defeated hindus as a nation.The lack of unity is because of that .The Vaishava hate Shaiva with a passion greater that they hate other religions.I am more proud of hinduism than the average amn but I do not hesitate to critisize or protest ineqities wherever necessary.

Sould I say regard to you ,that will bring you skin tone to normal?

 

 

[Sephiroth 0]

Sephiroth, you do not know me so you have no authority to make such a statement about my knowledge.This reflects on you.

 

Wrong ... this is the Internet, not your house. If you speak out about your knowledge in the Internet, ANYONE and EVERYONE has the right to make any sort of statements on what they think about you. You don't like to be criticized, then don't come to forums and the Net to express yourself.

 

Secondly you are drawing conclsions as you like.I have said both religions are rigid.Islam is very rigid you can not even break a small part of rituals.

 

Maybe you are the one following Hindusm in such way. Maybe India is following Hindusm in such way. I don't know ... should give such assumption.

 

My conclusion comes from watching Malaysian Hindus, which includes going to their temples and observing there. For your information, even college students who are Muslims are allowed to enter temples to observe and do research about other cultures in Malaysia, not sure about India though.

 

Take any sect of hinduism

Name some of this Sects please.

 

1] whom to worship

2] how to worship

3] what stotras to recite

4] whom to marry

4] what food you can have

6] how to have that food

7] with whom or in whose place to eat that food

8] how to perform you daily ablutions e.g. where to position your yagnopavitam while doing your ablutions.

8]How other people of your own region but of a different sect are horrible[untouchability].

9]Which temple to go

11] who can visit the temple

12] What awoman should do during her period & how she is again a horrible thing

13] how to dispose off the dead.

13] This rigidity goes to laughable extent how to apply your tilak on your forehead,Vertical or horizontal, vertical tilak people will do the same rigidly for generations together.

14] Which veda to follow .A Shukla Yajurvedi brahmin will not in his lifetime touch Krishna Yajurveda ,leave alone other vedas

15] Why you should or should not travel.

16]Why you should not cross oceans.

16]touch, smell ,food or social meeting with evryone except your own sect is prohibited in many of the sects.

17] how widows should live.

 

Sorry to say, we don't have all this sort of practises in Malaysia, which is why Malaysian Hindus are progressing forward (despite of social problems and political mishaps). Except for methods of disposing the death, everything else seems to be out of practise in Malaysia.

 

Maybe Indian should be the one to shut up, sit down and think properly whether what they are following is Hindusm or some Massala beliefs, mixed together with unflexiblity of Islam and nonsense of Christianity.

 

Indians in Malaysia are free to go to Vishnu temples in one day and Shiva temple in the next day, free to pray to one dieties and pray to another one in another day. Even in their houses, they have shrines with various dieties and non-dieties. Like a friend of mine have Amman and Buddha side by side in his shrine at home and goes to temple and Buddhist shrines whenever he can. And I can say he is more Hindu than you are. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

The lack of unity is because of that .The Vaishava hate Shaiva with a passion greater that they hate other religions.

 

True ... because they are not Hindus or followers of Vishnu for them to hate others. Be angry at me for all you want, but people who worship Vishnu and hate Shiva or vice versa is stupid people and shouldn't be called Hindus. They are living according to Christian principles.

[ajit12 0]

Dear sephiroth,

First of all that was a very balanced reply. Thank you . Secondly talk to any Brahmin,Swaminarayan or Iscon member about the things I mentioned. I Malasiya you have a migrant hindu community which is relaxed about such things but a traditional hindu let me repeat traditional hindu is very rigid . The flexibilty is due social reforms releasing the bonds of rigidity.We should be pround hindus with minimum restictions. I was talking to a jain who believes sincerely that just because he eats non-veg food he is no more a jain& has given up all the connections with his religion.

Your comment about people hating each other's sect within hinduism are perfect.You see the same narrowmindedness & stupidity in these columns at times.

My objection is not about you calling my views stupid but passing judgement about my knowledge without knowing me. That is unlike your other writing in this forum.

I also object to you saying I am a puppet as strongly as you oblect to me saying love to you.

Thanks for that post

[Guest guest]

its true,but u might notice many indians now days converting into christians here in malaysia.i noticed many indians r in christianity & insults hindu....btw,which part of malaysia r u ?

[Sephiroth 0]

First of all that was a very balanced reply.

That's for the readers of your post to decide.

 

Secondly talk to any Brahmin,Swaminarayan or Iscon member about the things I mentioned.

 

And WHO said that this people are Hindus?

 

Hindusm, especially in the Gita clearly stated that a person become Brahmin not by birth but by his Guna (attitude).

 

So why should I be bother to listen to a person who claims to be Brahmin by birth? If he is Brahmin by Guna, then it won't matter whether he calls himself Brahmin or not, does it?

 

As for ISCKON ... sorry, they themselves have rejected of being part of Hindusm, so whatever they say or follow is not Hindusm but their own beliefs. As for Swaminarayan ... I have no idea what belief is that, so I will not comment.

 

Malasiya you have a migrant hindu community which is relaxed about such things but a traditional hindu let me repeat traditional hindu is very rigid .

 

WRONG ... they are following Hindusm in a proper way. It is Indian Hindus who have failed to follow their Hindusm beliefs properly.

 

The rigidness of rituals is still there and Hindus are very careful in every religious practise they make, however, when comes to living properly, they are not rigid and relaxed, just as what Gita had summoned them to do. You should learn from Malaysian Hindus.

 

We should be pround hindus with minimum restictions.

 

Define what do you mean "minimun restriction".

When you say we should pround Hindus in such "minimun restriction", what do you mean?

 

I was talking to a jain who believes sincerely that just because he eats non-veg food he is no more a jain& has given up all the connections with his religion.

 

Correct ... if a Jain do not follow what taught to him in his religion, then why should he be calling himself a Jain?

 

If you don't follow Hindusm, why call yourself Hindus? If you don't follow Buddhism, why call yourself Buddhist? If you don't follow Islam, why call yourself Muslims?

 

You see the same narrowmindedness & stupidity in these columns at times.

 

There's narrowmindness and stupidity in all the world, not just this one. We are here to learn about our mistake, so that is what you must do. Those who are stupid and narrowminded have a choice to open their mind and broaden their knowledge.

 

My objection is not about you calling my views stupid but passing judgement about my knowledge without knowing me. That is unlike your other writing in this forum.

 

Sorry ... I don't need to know you to judge your knowledge. Your knowledge have nothing to do with you, matter a fact, knowledge is not important, WISDOM is important.

 

Knowledge is what you pick up during your studies and interaction and therefore, superficial. Your Wisdom is what you sit down and think carefully of what you learn. That is important. Therefore, your knowledge is no concern of mine, I see your wisdom, if there is any.

 

I also object to you saying I am a puppet as strongly as you oblect to me saying love to you.

 

Perhaps it is about time I remove my Signature.

the word "You're a Puppet" is my signature, it has nothing to do with you or anyone. It comes in automatically in each post I make at the bottom. And please don't say you love me. It sounds "dirty".

[Sephiroth 0]

its true,but u might notice many indians now days converting into christians here in malaysia.i noticed many indians r in christianity & insults hindu....

 

Yes, I have meet many of such people. Many of them riddicule Hindusm, even to me. I don't bother about them. Do you know why? Because I PITY them.

 

Christianity is creation of Romans in order to ensure that Judaism doesn't topple Roman Empire and also to boost Roman people's morale to fight and expand toward the south.

 

You see ... Romans were living life just as Americans are doing today. They had gods but their gods are useless. They engage in sexual relationships, their family structure collapses, their live in corruptions and they were barbaric. And slowly, Romans who found Judaism to be more fruitiful begin to abandon Roman gods and follow Judaism. Many of this people were crucified, burnt alive and send to the pits to be eaten by tigers and lions.

 

Romans couldn't keep their society from falling toward Judaism so they devised a plan to create their own "religion" with Roman gods as centre figures. Thus, born Christianity.

 

This is not my own assumption. Please run a check on www.google.com on a book called "Ceaser's Messiah" which is based on historical facts of Christianity.

 

So, why should I be upset if anyone (who follows foolish man-made beliefs themselves) ridicules me about Hindusm, Buddhism or Judaism for that matter?

 

btw,which part of malaysia r u ?

Kuala Lumpur - Main Capital of Malaysia. You can say I'm at the Heart of the Nation and knows what going on in the country.

[Guest guest]

ohh k....so what about Jesus man?i mean,he is REALITY right??true...i too pity them,esp many my own relatives r converting thier self,and the best part u know what? do u know what they teach the small kids in thier sunday skool? " Hindu Gods r not true" a small boy,my relative,about 12 y/o,asking me " All the Hindu Gods exists ah anne" from there i knew those sunday skool people r poisoning the kids mind about Hinduism.

 

and man,1 more strategy of them to convert the hindus into christianity is by thier poverty.the church peoples gives the poor money,food,clothes,etc etc and in return they ask them to convert in christiany to get the good permenantly....

 

i myself in malaysia and i get to see all this by my own eyes, why is the God letting all this to happen??? is it becoz of we r in Kaliyuga??

[Sephiroth 0]

ohh k....so what about Jesus man?i mean,he is REALITY right??true...i too pity them,esp many my own relatives r converting thier self,and the best part u know what? do u know what they teach the small kids in thier sunday skool? " Hindu Gods r not true" a small boy,my relative,about 12 y/o,asking me " All the Hindu Gods exists ah anne" from there i knew those sunday skool people r poisoning the kids mind about Hinduism.

 

If you can, buy a book called "Ceaser's Messiah" (which you can look for on the Internet). It has some good information and historical data on how Christianity came to being in 2nd and 3rd Century B.C.

 

Basically, it stated that Jesus is actually "invented" by Romans to control the mass. In Greek gods, it is common for their gods to have sex with humans and produced demi-gods like Hercules. So, Jesus was one of such product. Which means that Christians are not following the same religion as Moses brought to Jews, but Roman pagan belief.

 

and man,1 more strategy of them to convert the hindus into christianity is by thier poverty.the church peoples gives the poor money,food,clothes,etc etc and in return they ask them to convert in christiany to get the good permenantly....

 

Strike them down and TAKE what you want. After all, they did the same for 150 years when they ruled over India, so why must you pity them now? Food which grown in India belongs to Indians. No one should stop Indians from taking what is rightfully theirs in the first place.

 

The most "evil" thing a person can do is dangle food in front of starving children.

 

Such practise don't even exist in Judaism, hell ... Abraham (even in Islam) was known to be a person who invited tired travellers to rest in his house, give food and water and tell about God after they had rested. He didn't dangle food and water to tired people and offer their faith in exchange for food.

 

i myself in malaysia and i get to see all this by my own eyes, why is the God letting all this to happen??? is it becoz of we r in Kaliyuga??

 

God didn't make it happen, YOU (Humans) made it happen. Kali yuga happened because you WISHED for it.

 

In Sayta yuga, when He said pray, you pray but in your mind, you asked why must you pray all the time and wished for time to relax and shake your legs.

 

In the next yuga, when He gave time to relax and time to pray, you pray but continue to think on how short the time He had given for relax and rest, in some excuse of wanting to get together with friends and families.

 

In the next yuga, He gave 15% time for pray and the rest to spend whatever way you like and you wonder why you must pray in the first place.

 

Now in Kali yuga, you are praying that He should give you more time to pray like what in Satya yuga (which you heard in stories).

 

You are suffering because you never appreciate what you had. Now it is gone - peace, your identity as Hindus, your own nations and prosperity and you blame God for allowing it to happen. Know the Fact and Blame yourself.

[barney 0]

Hindu men converting to Islam or Christianity in Malaysia is specificly for one reason and that is woman. Yes, it's true that Malay women by nature are beautiful and that is the one reason for Hindu men converting to Islam to marry a Malay woman. But after that these men do not practice their adopted religion but just call themselves Muslim. Even those who convert to Christianity for the sake of a Christian woman do not attend Sunday mass or practice the religion. So, it is all marriage of convience and the number is very low compared to dahlits converting to Islam and Christianity in India.

 

It's India that we need to worry as this conversion is in large scale and numbers are increasing daily. So, Hindus in India should address this problem rather than worring about a small fraction in Malaysia.

[Sephiroth 0]

Yes, it's true that Malay women by nature are beautiful and that is the one reason for Hindu men converting to Islam to marry a Malay woman.

 

Malay women are beautiful, but I think Chinese woman are more beautiful. Bad things about Chinese women are, they don't take care of their attitudes as much as they take care of their bodies and some can be very materialistics in nature.

 

Indian girls are cute too, but I found many of Malaysian Indian girls are ... egoistic in nature. Reading through Sri krishna's biography (which I got a few years back), I actually begin to understand what He was doing with Gopis and why He didn't entertain some of them.

 

But, so far, to my likings ... nothing could beat the spirits and strenght I see in Japanese Girls. They cute, very spirited, go things they like without bothering about others and attend to be very outgoing also.

 

Anyway, back to topic at hand ... Hindu men convert to Islam not for marriage alone, they also do so because of statues and wealth government offering in silent.

 

I remember a small-time restaurant owner in Malaysia who was Hindu at first, spend his time with his make-shift restaurant under the tree. He converted to Islam and a few years later, own chains of resturant under his name in Kuala Lumpur and Petaling Jaya district.

 

Also, many of the Hindus in Malaysia are just Hindus by name. So they are very scared of dying and of their own sins. So when they are reaching old age and Death waving at them, they attend to fall to Islam and its offer of sin-less free existence.

 

That is why I believe that Spiritual studies must be done in early stage in life when a person is still a child. A lifetime of Sins cannot be fixed in a few years as old men. This is not Satya Yuga, this is Kali yuga.

 

So, it is all marriage of convience and the number is very low compared to dahlits converting to Islam and Christianity in India.

 

If Hindus worry about Dalits who are converting, then it is about time Hindus sit down and begin to think ways to treat them nicely. Many Dalits are converting because they says others of treating them as low caste people. This is not fault of Islam or Christianity but fault of mainstream of Hindus themselves.

 

Despite of numerous times explaining that Casta is only four and it is by Guna, Hindus still attached themselves egoistically to Casta by birth which is not Hindusm.