Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

July 7, 2005

I have not read your full post. Since I know nothing new would be there.

But new lies need some exposition. How long will you be like a child?

Earlier in this post you said: "also MahaNarayana Upanishad says: 'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate'"

And now you say:

Naaraayana Upanishad(1) says: "......Naaraayanaat Rudro Jaayate"

Ekadasha has been conveniently removed. All will see your false hood and treachery.

It was earlier shown from Rig Veda that Rudra himself is father of Rudras. I repeat few verses again.

Who are the Rudras?

HYMN LXXVII. Maruts.

2 The youths have wrought their ornaments for glory through many nights,-this noble band of Maruts. Like stags the Sons of Dyatis have striven onward, the Sons of Aditi grown strong like pillars.

MARUTS ARE SONS OF DITI (DYATI) AND ADITI.

RV HYMN CLXVI. Maruts.

1. ---- With fire upon your way, O Maruts loud of voice, with battle, Mighty Ones, achieve your deeds of strength.

2 Bringing the pleasant meath as 'twere their own dear son, they sport in sportive wise gay at their gatherings. The Rudras come with succour to the worshipper; self-strong they fail not him who offers sacrifice.

Note: Maruts are Rudras. They are brothers of Indra. And Vishnu is also a Marut --- the Evayamarut.

HYMN CLXX. Indra. Maruts.

2 The Maruts are thy brothers. Why, O Indra, wouldst thou take our lives?

HYMN LXXXVII. Maruts.

4 HE OF THE MIGHTY STRIDE FORTH STRODE, EVAYAMARUT, ----

7 SO MAY THE RUDRAS, MIGHTY WARRIORS, EVAYAMARUT, WITH SPLENDID BRILLIANCY, LIKE FIRES, BE OUR PROTECTORS; -----

8 COME IN A FRIENDLY SPIRIT, COME TO US, O MARUTS, AND HEAR HIS CALL WHO PRAISES YOU, EVAYAMARUT. LIKE CAR-BORNE MEN, ONE-MINDED WITH THE MIGHTY VISNU, KEEP ENMITY FAR FROM US WITH YOUR DEEDS OF WONDER.

And wherefrom these Maruts-Rudras had their birth?

HYMN LXIV. Maruts.

2 They spring to birth, the lofty Ones, the Bulls of Heaven, divine, THE CHILDREN OF RUDRA, ---

3 YOUNG RUDRAS, demon-slayers, never growing old, they have waxed, even as mountains, irresistible. They make all beings tremble with their mighty strength, even the very strongest, both of earth and heaven.

12 THE PROGENY OF RUDRA WE INVOKE WITH PRAYER, ------

***********

finally a quote from Mahopanishad,

" Shiva eva svayam saakshaat ayam brahma vidh uttama"

meaning:

only Shiva is the best knower(vidh uttama) of this(ayam) Brahman.

**********

Yes, Shiva is the best knower. Why do not you show what comes before and after this?

Mahopanishad

Iv-83-87. ------In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than chit.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

And Visnu also is a knower:

RV Book 7 HYMN XCIX. Visnu.

1. MEN come not nigh thy majesty who growest beyond all bound and measure with thy body.

Both thy two regions of the earth, O Visnu, we know: thou God, knowest the highest also.

Those who are yet to see ONe God will always be in confusion. God is ONE.

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; -------

Svet Up.

4.12

HE, THE CREATOR OF THE GODS AND THE BESTOWER OF THEIR POWERS, THE SUPPORT OF THE UNIVERSE, RUDRA THE OMNISCIENT, WHO AT THE BEGINNING GAVE BIRTH TO HIRANYAGARBHA—MAY HE ENDOW US WITH CLEAR INTELLECT!

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

God is one. Vedas call Him: Rudra Vishnave.

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

Om Namah Sivayya.

July 7, 2005

Srinivasan uses borrowed literature from hatred sites, similar to some muslim sites. He traps himself with his lies and falsifications.

-

finally a quote from Mahopanishad,

" Shiva eva svayam saakshaat ayam brahma vidh uttama"

meaning:

only Shiva is the best knower(vidh uttama) of this(ayam) Brahman

----------

In the translation, Srinivasan has removed "saakshaat" And he has also not cited the preceding and following parts.

Mahopanishad

Iv-83-87. ------In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than chit.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

By citing Maho Upanishad, 2 thinngs are attained.

1. all the three worlds are nothing more than chit

2. Shiva, that un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

See how God works to kill lies.

July 7, 2005

God-The Only Being

According to Vallabha, God is the Absolute or the Purushottama. He is perfect. He is Sat-Chit-Ananda. He is infinite, eternal, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. He has all the auspicious qualities also. The Sruti texts which say that He has no attributes, mean only that He has not the ordinary qualities. God is real. There is no other reality besides Him. He is the only Being. He is the source for this universe and all souls. He is the first cause and the only cause. God is the material as well as the efficient cause of the universe. He creates the world by the mere force of His Will. Brahman manifests Himself, of His own Will, as the universe and the individual souls, but He does not undergo any change in His essential nature. Things come out of the Akshara (Sat-Chit-Ananda), like sparks from fire. Brahman is the Creator of the world. He is also the world itself. God is personified as Krishna, when He possesses the qualities of wisdom and action. He appears in various forms to please His devotees.

Jai Shri Krishna

July 7, 2005

"God is personified as Krishna"

wrong..

god is krsna-vishnu/krsna-vishnu is god

(being simultaneously also brahman and paramatma)

if god is originally sat-cit-ananda, he has to be full of quality in origin, not only as a derivation of brahman

July 8, 2005

Naaraayana Upanishad(1) says: "......Naaraayanaat Rudro Jaayate"

Ekadasha has been conveniently removed. All will see your false hood and treachery.

probably u do not know the difference between mahanarayanaopanishad and narayana upanishad.

the first verse of Narayana Upanishad says:

".... kam vAyur jyOthir Apah prithvI visvasya dhArinI|

nArAyanAt brahmA jAyate| nArAyanAt rudrO jAyate|"

I have not removed any word from the verse.

in MahaNarayana Upanishad it is said:

"nArAyanAt ekAdasha rudrO jAyate|"

so don't panic. my citations are right.

-------------------------------

Who are the Rudras?

HYMN LXXVII. Maruts.

2 The youths have wrought their ornaments for glory through many nights,-this noble band of Maruts. Like stags the Sons of Dyatis have striven onward, the Sons of Aditi grown strong like pillars.

MARUTS ARE SONS OF DITI (DYATI) AND ADITI.

--

now what an exposure of ignorance! Maruts and Rudras are differnt categories of devas.

there are 49 Maruts while there are only 11 Rudras. once again Atanu is exposing his ignorance.

July 8, 2005

In the translation, Srinivasan has removed "saakshaat" And he has also not cited the preceding and following parts.

--------------------------------

'saakshaat' means directly/absolutely. hence it means that Shiva himself is absolutely the best knower of this Brahman.

because the word 'vidh uttama' is present, the verse cannot be taken to mean that shiva is absolutely this Brahman and it can only mean that Shiva is the best knower of this Brahman whom he knows directly/absolutely.

'ayam brahman' clearly differentiates Shiva from Brahman and I did not emphasise upon 'svayam' & 'saakshaat' because it is just a stressing word for the fact that Shiva is the best knower which I have noted in my translation.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers.

-------------------------------

now u make the same misinterpretation that is common to shaivites.

(the best of the Brahman-Knowers.)

not so. best knower of this Brahman(ayam brahma).

the word this(ayam) is very important as it is not a stress word for it clearly shows the difference between the knower(Shiva) and the known(BRahman).

and because the word 'ayam' is used,

------------------------------

That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

these charecteristics refer to the Brahman and not to Shiva.

the verse would mean "only Shiva himself is the absolutely the best knower of this brahman which is the undecaying being forming the substratum (of all) which cannot be expressed in full by words or mind and which is eternal,omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

so dear guest,

don't misinterpret as per ur wish.

--------------------------------

Srinivasan uses borrowed literature from hatred sites, similar to some muslim sites. He traps himself with his lies and falsifications.

these sentences are fit for u for u r doing actually doing it by misinterpreting the verses. probably u learnt this art from any shaivite website or some other shaivite person.

also Mahopanishad does say in the very beginning:

"evam nArAyanAseet na brahmA nEshAna"

meaning:

only Narayana existed neither Brahmadeva nor Shiva(Isana) existed.

so Shiva is not eternal.

the birth of Visnu mentioned in Mahopanishad is clearly explained as an avatar by Taittreya Aranyaka with its words:

"ajAyamAnO bahudA vijAyathE"

it had also been proved earlier by quoting from MudgalOpanishad.

July 8, 2005

the following is a quotation from Bhaallaveya shruti(also called Bhaallaveya Upanishad). this is also accepted as a pramaana by prominent Achaaryaas and has been often quoted by them.

`nAmAni vishvA.abhi na santi loke yadAvirAsIdanR^itasya sarvam.h |

nAmAni sarvAni yamAvishanti taM vai viShNuM paramamudAharanti |'

iti bhAllaveyashrutiH |

Which says that only Vishnu is the primary referrent of all names.

so our interpretation that,

******************

Svet Up.

4.12

HE, THE CREATOR OF THE GODS AND THE BESTOWER OF THEIR POWERS, THE SUPPORT OF THE UNIVERSE, RUDRA THE OMNISCIENT, WHO AT THE BEGINNING GAVE BIRTH TO HIRANYAGARBHA—MAY HE ENDOW US WITH CLEAR INTELLECT!

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

********************

these verses refer to Visnu is absolutely valid as per the Sruti quoted above.

*****************

And Visnu also is a knower:

RV Book 7 HYMN XCIX. Visnu.

1. MEN come not nigh thy majesty who growest beyond all bound and measure with thy body.

Both thy two regions of the earth, O Visnu, we know: thou God, knowest the highest also.

*********************

yes Visnu is also called the best knower but here He is not differentiated from the Known.

but the case is not so in Mahopanishad where it clearly shows that the knower and the known are different by using the word 'ayam'.

so Visnu is the best knower of Himself(Brahman) while Shiva is the best knower(among the jivas) of Brahman.

MahaNarayana Upanishad says about Visnu

"tvad na samAnAdhika"

meaning:

no one is equal to or greater than You.

nArAyanAt param nAsti.

July 8, 2005

**** the upaakyaanam quoted says that Visnu's came to Indra's help with which Indra killed Rudradeva.*******

You are that Indra (mind), the foolish one, to whom Soma has not come. You truly kill God.

***********************

probably u do not know the difference between mahanarayanaopanishad and narayana upanishad.

the first verse of Narayana Upanishad says:

".... kam vAyur jyOthir Apah prithvI visvasya dhArinI|

nArAyanAt brahmA jAyate| nArAyanAt rudrO jAyate|"

in MahaNarayana Upanishad it is said:

"nArAyanAt ekAdasha rudrO jAyate|"

**********************

Lying and altering scriptures will never help.

Naaraayana Upanishad

“OM! The Supreme Being, ----- OUT OF NARAAYANA ARISES THE BRAHMA, ----and also the Indra, ----Out of Him comes Prajaapati, ----- as well as the TWELVE AADITYAAS, ELEVEN RUDRAAS AND EIGHT VASUS.

Where is Rudra here?

"nArAyanAt ekAdasha rudrO jAyate and not “nArAyanAt rudrO jAyate”.

Moreover Naaraayana Upanishad also states that Brahma, Krishna, Vishnu are all lights of Narayana.

The Vaikuntha is not (to be found) anywhere else but in a pure blessed heart, filled with knowledge (spiritual). From there rises an offshoot of light, as bright as a ray of lightning.

THAT RAY OF LIGHT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE VARIOUS FORMS OF NAARAAYANA – CALLED BY NAMES SUCH AS SON OF DEVAKI, THE ONE SWEETER THAN HONEY, THE ONE IN THE FORM OF BRAHMA, THE ONE WITH LOTUS-LIKE EYES, VISHNU. He is the form of syllable OM, the Supreme Being.

And Yajniki Upanishad (which is also called Narayana Upanishad) says this:

Purushashaya vidmahe saharxa Mahadevaye dhimahi

Tanno Rudra prachdyat (1.22)

Tatpurusaye Vidmahe mahadevaye dhimahi

Tanno Rudra Prachodyat (1.23)

nArAyanAt ekAdasha rudrO jAyate is correct. There is no nArAyanAt rudrO jAyate (it is falsification).

And Narayan Suktam says this:

Naarayana Sooktam:

Verse XII:

In the middle of that tongue of flame the Supreme Self abides firmly. He is Brahma, He is Siva, He is Hari (Vishnu), He is Indra, He is the Immortal, the Supreme Lord of all.

This is the famous verse:

(Sah Brahma Sah Shiva Sah Hari Sendra Sokshara Parama Swaraat)

You obviously want Sa Hari removed from this verse of Taittriya Arayanaka

(Sah Brahma Sah Shiva Sah Hari Sendra Sokshara Parama Swaraat).

I know Vaishnav literature has removed sa Hari from the above verse. But can such contradictions to Samhita stand.

Shiva is Saharshraxa and no one else.

And Rig Veda says:

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

**********

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Who are the Rudras?

--

now what an exposure of ignorance! Maruts and Rudras are differnt categories of devas.

there are 49 Maruts while there are only 11 Rudras. once again Atanu is exposing his ignorance.

******************

Oh yes. It is better to be ignorant than to be over smart and a hater of Shiva.

Maruts and Rudras are interchangeably used in the following verses. And their father is Rudra. And moreover, the discussion is about ekadasha Rudras, who the Veda says are progeny of Rudra.

Who is idiotic?

HYMN LXXXVII. Maruts.

4 HE OF THE MIGHTY STRIDE FORTH STRODE, EVAYAMARUT (VISNU), ----

7 SO MAY THE RUDRAS, MIGHTY WARRIORS, EVAYAMARUT, WITH SPLENDID BRILLIANCY, LIKE FIRES, BE OUR PROTECTORS; -----

HYMN LXIV. Maruts.

2 They spring to birth, the lofty Ones, the Bulls of Heaven, divine, THE CHILDREN OF RUDRA, ---

3 YOUNG RUDRAS, demon-slayers, never growing old, they have waxed, even as mountains, irresistible. They make all beings tremble with their mighty strength, even the very strongest, both of earth and heaven.

12 THE PROGENY OF RUDRA WE INVOKE WITH PRAYER, ------

VISHNU HIMSELF IS EVAYAMARUT. I know that gives you pain. All this falsification is to avoid this truth alone: That Visnu is truly an EVAYAMARUT.

***********

'saakshaat' means directly/absolutely. hence it means that Shiva himself is absolutely the best knower of this Brahman.

******************

Does “Absolutely the best knower” mean anything?

The translation is:

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself (sakshat), the best of the Brahman-Knowers.

The translation causes no contradiction to Yajniki Upanishad (Narayana Upanishad)

Purushashaya vidmahe saharxa Mahadevaye dhimahi

Tanno Rudra prachdyat (1.22)

Tatpurusaye Vidmahe mahadevaye dhimahi

Tanno Rudra Prachodyat (1.23)

so dear guest, you who as per your wish killed off Rudra many times, is a liar par excellence.

****************

also Mahopanishad does say in the very beginning:

"evam nArAyanAseet na brahmA nEshAna"

meaning:

only Narayana existed neither Brahmadeva nor Shiva(Isana) existed.

so Shiva is not eternal.

*****************

Oh yes. This is correct. Shiva is worshipped as Ishana – manifest and as Linga (Sivam) – unmanifest also. Manifest is from the unmanifest.

******************

the birth of Visnu mentioned in Mahopanishad

**************

Oh yes. Vishnu has birth. Find out from where his birth is:

RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

Soma, the father who begat Vishnu and Indra.

atanu · July 8, 2005

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull;

This says all. There is ONE GOD, who is “I” of all (including Visnu). And Maha Narayana Upanishad states what is “I”.

Maha-Narayana Upanishad

Xxi-1: May the supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the vedas and the one overlord of hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the sadasiva described thus and denoted by pranava.

I AM THE SADASIVA DESCRIBED THUS

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures. -----

XXV-1: We sing a hymn ------- who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

RUDRA, WHO ALONE IS THE LIGHT AND THE SOUL OF CREATURES AND WHO DWELLS IN THE HEART IS CALLED A JIVA BY THE CHILDISH AND IMMATURE. These fellows debase their own atma (self).

THEY ARE DESCRIBED IN BHAGAVATAM:

33. Lord Girisa, exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

THEY ARE CERTAINLY SHAMELESS. BHAGAVATAM SAYS IT.

atanu · July 8, 2005

Unlike you, I do not request you to stop. I request you to continue so that the truth is known and you and your ilk's vile is exposed.

You are debasing the Vedas.

**** the upaakyaanam quoted says that Visnu's came to Indra's help with which Indra killed Rudradeva.*******

YV iv. i. 2.

d In each need more strong, In each contest, we invoke, As friends, Indra to aid us.

e Hastening [1] come hither, trampling the enemy, Come with wondrous skill from the leadership of Rudra;

July 9, 2005

RV HYMN XC. Purusa.

1. A THOUSAND heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet. On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.

-------------

13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth; Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vayu from his breath.

14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head Earth from his feet, and from his car the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.

---------

Is Vishnu a brother or father of Indra? Purusha of thousand eyes gave birth to Indra (as above).

YV

namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe |

atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH ||

Salutations be to the blue-throated, He who has a thousand eyes and who showers blessings as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas.

Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah |

Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi ||

In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us.

RUDRA IS PURUSHA OF VEDAS WITH THOUSAND ARMS AND THOUSAND EYES DIRECTLY (AND NOT BY THE STRENGTH OF BEING PARAM PADAM).

July 9, 2005

Isha, Para, Bhagavo

Shri Rudram 1.9

namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe |

atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 9)

May my salutations be to the blue-throated, He who has a thousand eyes and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas.

--

Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan

ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo

Isha, Para, Bhagavo

O Bhagavan (God)! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

--

Shri Rudram 1.11

avatatya dhanustvaM sahasrAxa shateshhudhe |

nishIrya shalyAnAM mukhA shivo naH sumanA bhava ||

O Lord who are the thousand-eyed One and the Bearer of a hundred arrow-quivers! Having loosened Your bow-string and having degraded (made blunt) the tips of Your arrows, become benevolent and peaceful towards us.

July 9, 2005

Siva & Brahma are also forms of Vishnu. It is clearly stated in Bhagavath Gita. So whatever God that is hailed & worshipped, it is ultimately goes to Lotus feet of Lord Vishnu only.

So it is baseless to argue on supremacy over vishnu & shiva.

Jai Shri Krishna

July 9, 2005

vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho ---- tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH

Isavasyopanishad, as contained in the Sukla-Yajur-Veda

sambhuutiM cha vinaashaM cha yastadvedobhaya{\m+} saha .

vinaashena mR^ityuM tiirtvaa sambhuutyaa.amR^itamashnute .. 14..

14. He who knows both the Unmanifested and the destructible (Hiranyagarbha) together, transcends death by the (worship of) the destructible and attains immortality by the (worship of ) the Unmanifested.

My brothers, Bindu, Srinivasa and other guests, do not like to believe yet that the spirit behind a manifest thing is the root, the intelligence, the controller. This is spirituality.

Lot of harsh words have been used but brothers on path will remain brothers. And as elder one, I will be gratified if Lord gives them a little bit of flexibility of mind.

Some one above talked of Paingala Shruti. Possibly, the Param Padam part as below:

pai~Ngalopanishhat.h .. shukla_yajurvediiya

tadvishhNoH paramaM ..n sadaa pashyanti suurayaH

. diviiva chakshuraatatam.h .. tadvipraaso vipanyavo jaagR^ivaa.nsaH

samindhate . vishhNoryatparamaM padam.h .. AUM satyamityupanishhat.h

IV-30. That supreme Status of Vishnu spread out, like an eye, in the sky, the enlightened ones always behold.

IV-31. The wise, ever vigilant and diligent in praise richly glorify That supreme Status of Vishnu.

IV-32. OM-Truth – This is the secret teaching.

But my friends, please read a thing in totality.

iishaadhishhThitaavaraNashaktito rajodriktaa mahadaakhyaa vikshepashaktiraasiit.h . tatpratibimbita.n yattaddhiraNyagarbhachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa mahattattvaabhimaanii

spashhTaaspashhTavapurbhavati . hiraNyagarbhaadhishhThitavikshepashaktitastamodriktaaha~Nkaaraabhidhaa

sthuulashaktiraasiit.h . tatpratibimbita.n

yattadviraaTachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa tadabhimaanii spashhTavapuH

sarvasthuulapaalako vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho bhavati .

1-5.From the power of concealment controlled by God arose the Power of Projection called Mahat. What is reflected in it is the consciousness of Hiranyagarbha. He has the conceit of ownership as regards Mahat and has a body partly manifest and partly unmanifest.

I-6. From the projective power controlled by Hiranyagarbha arose the gross power called the ego, with the preponderance of Tamas. What was reflected in it was the consciousness of Virat. That Virat who has conceit in the Ego, a manifest body, and is the Chief Person, Vishnu is the protector of all gross things. From that Self (Virat) arose ether; from the ether, air; from air, fire; from fire, water; from water, earth. These five root-elements are composed of the three Gunas.

End of Citation

“That Virat who has conceit in the Ego, a manifest body, and is the Chief Person, Vishnu”

Isha conjoined with Prakriti gives rise to Mahat, and Mahat to Hirayanagarbha, who in turn uses his projective power (power is of Isha alone), to create Virat, called Virat. This is the birth of Virat – the ego. The ego has spread everywhere it is God’s ego alone.

Also read this:

yattadviraaTachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa tadabhimaanii spashhTavapuH

sarvasthuulapaalako vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho bhavati .

tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH .

vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho ---- tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH.

I have seen many devotees who are never thoughtful of the process of air, water, and sunlight, becoming a huge plant, or a very intelligent person etc. The subtle becomes gross.

The apparent power of gross is actually in the subtle.

My friends and brothers have also mentioned about Indra killing Isha. And they have also painted Isha as a Jiva. So, the Isha Upanishad (which is the number one Upanishad) has to be scrapped.

Although the power of Adityas: Indra and Pradhan Purusha (Vishnu) is derived from Atma. The mind (Indra) veiled by Maya does not acknowledge it.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu,

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Prisan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

YV vi. 1. 11.

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma Indra slew Vrtra'. In that he offers an animal to Agni and Soma, it slays hostile things for him;

So the following happens:

YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures. But within creatures, they do not shine, covered with five koshas of Maya. So, again:

Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10.

Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him.

Without knowing Rudra who has entered into fire, water, and air, and all beings and on account of whom the Sun shines and the wind moves, it is not possible to become Self Realized.

Also:

YV iii. 1. 10.

g ---- he returns, and with a verse addressed to Visnu reverences Soma; Visnu is the sacrifice; verily he makes the sacrifice. 'O Visnu, as our nearest, O mighty one, grant us protection; the streams dripping honey milk for thee the unfailing source', he says; verily he makes to swell by it whatever of the Soma has dried up through lying (in the body).

So, worship of Vishnu leads to reverencing Soma – one who knows it can only obtain the benefit.

Few other citations, all from Vaisnava Upanishads are given below.

Nrisinhatapini Upanishad

naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghana madR^ishhTamavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNa\-

machintyamachintyamavyapadeshyamaikaatmyapratyayasaaraM

prapa~nchopashama.n shiva.n shaantamadvaita.n chaturthaM

manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neya iishvaragraasasturiiyasturiiyaH

eshha sarveshvara eshha sarvaj~na eshho.antaryaamyeshha

yoniH sarvasya prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaanaa.n

naantaHpraj~na.n na bahiHpraj~na.n nobhayataHpraj~na.n

na praj~na.n naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghanamadR^ishhTa\-

mavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNamachintyamavyapadeshya\-

maikaatmyapratyayasaaraM prapa~nchopashama.n shaanta.n

shivamadvaita.n chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neyaH (This is almost a copy of Mandyuka Upanishad verse)

shivo.advaita AUMkaara aatmaiva sa

tripaadvibhuutimahaanaaraayaNopanishhatsamaaptaa

naaraayaNaadakhilalokasrashhTR^iprajaapatayo

jaayante . naaraayaNaadekaatasharudraashcha jaayante

Note: naaraayaNaat ekaadasharudraashcha jaayante: 10 senses (maruts) and mind (Indra). And ekadasha Rudras are known to be sons of ONE RUDRA from RIG VEDA.

tachcha shivagaayatriiparabrahmamantraaNaa.n

varNairvR^ittaakaareNa sa.nveshhTya .

tatpurushhaaya vidmahe mahaadevaaya dhiimahi .

tanno rudraH prachodayaat.h .

Kaivalyopanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda

hR^itpuNDariikaM virajaM vishuddhaM vichintya madhye vishadaM vishokam.h . achintyamavyaktamanantaruupaM shivaM prashaantamamR^itaM brahmayonim.h .. 6..

tamaadimadhyaantavihiinamekaM vibhuM chidaanandamaruupamadbhutam.h .

umaasahaayaM parameshvaraM prabhuM trilochanaM niilakaNThaM prashaantam.h . dhyaatvaa munirgachchhati bhuutayoniM samastasaakshiM tamasaH parastaat.h .. 7..

sa brahmaa sa shivaH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaH svaraaT.h .

sa eva vishhNuH sa praaNaH sa kaalo.agniH sa chandramaaH .. 8..

sa eva sarvaM yadbhuutaM yachcha bhavyaM sanaatanam.h .

GYaatvaa taM mR^ityumatyeti naanyaH panthaa vimuktaye .. 9..

sarvabhuutasthamaatmaanaM sarvabhuutaani chaatmani .

sampashyanbrahma paramaM yaati naanyena hetunaa .. 10..

6. (Who is) unthinkable, unmanifest, of endless forms, the good, the peaceful, Immortal, the origin of the worlds, without beginning, middle, and end, the only one, all-pervading, Consciousness, and Bliss, the formless and the wonderful.

7. Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches Him who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya).

8. He is Brahma, He is Shiva, He is Indra, He is the Immutable, the Supreme, the Self-luminous, He alone is Vishnu, He is Prana, He is Time and Fire, He is the Moon.

9. He alone is all that was, and all that will be, the Eternal; knowing Him, one transcends death; there is no other way to freedom.

10. Seeing the Atman in all beings, and all beings in the Atman, one attains the highest Brahman – not by any other means.

trishhu dhaamasu yadbhogyaM bhoktaa bhogashcha yadbhavet.h .

tebhyo vilakshaNaH saakshii chinmaatro.ahaM sadaashivaH .. 18..

18. What constitute the enjoyable, the enjoyer, and the enjoyment, in the three abodes – different from them all am I, the Witness, the Pure Consciousness, the Eternal Sada Sivam.

samastasaakshiM sadasadvihiinaM prayaati shuddhaM paramaatmaruupam.h ..

yaH shataruudriyamadhiite so.agnipuuto bhavati suraapaanaatpuuto bhavati 24..

23-24. For me there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air, nor ether. Thus realising the Paramatman, who lies in the cavity of the heart, who is without parts, and without a second, the Witness of all, beyond both existence and non-existence – one attains the Pure Paramatman Itself.

25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares. Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self. One who belongs to the highest order of life should repeat this always or once (a day).

Maha Upanishad Sama Veda

athaato mahopanishhada.n vyaakhyaasyamastadaahureko ha vai naaraayaNa

aasiinna brahmaa neshaano naapo naagniishhomau neme dyaavaapR^ithivii na nakshatraaNi na suuryo na chandramaaH . sa ekaakii na ramate .

tasya dhyaanaantaHsthasya yaj~nastomamuchyate . tasminpurushhaashchaturdasha jaayante . ekaa kanyaa . dashendriyaaNi mana ekaadasha.n tejaH . dvaadasho.aha~NkaaraH . trayodashakaH praaNaH ------------

Narayana, verily, was alone, they say; there was no Brahman, no Isana, no water, no Agni and Soma, no heaven and no earth here, no stars, no Sun, but only he, the Nara (Purusa) alone. A sacrificial hymn of praise is uttered by him, as he remains absorbed in meditation. Therein originated fourteen Purusas (men) and a girl, viz., ten indriyas (organs), the Manas (mind) as the eleventh, the Tejas (knowledge) as the twelfth, the Ahamkaara (ego) as the thirteenth, the Praana ----

Where is birth of Rudra spoken? On the other hand read on:

tadbrahmaanandamadvandva.n nirguNa.n satyachidghanam.h .

viditvaa svaatmano ruupa.n na bibheti kadaachana .. 70..

paraatpara.n yanmahato mahaantaM

svaruupatejomayashaashvata.n shivam.h .

kaviM puraaNaM purushha.n sanaatanaM

sarveshvara.n sarvadevairupaasyam.h .. 71..

ahaM brahmeti niyataM mokshaheturmahaatmanaam.h .

dve pade bandhamokshaaya nirmameti mameti cha .

mameti badhyate janturnirmameti vimuchyate .. 72..

IV-70-72. One fears never (and from nothing) on knowing the nature of the self as Bliss unequalled, attributeless and one mass of truth and consciousness. That ancient purusha is beyond all that is beyond, greater than the greatest, self resplendent, eternal, Sarvesvara, worshipped by all gods.

As a rule ‘I (am) Brahman’ these two words are for the liberation of the great. Whereas ‘Not Mine’ and ‘Mine’ give liberation and bondage (respectively).

anaatmataaM parityajya nirvikaarau jagatsthitau .

ekanishhThatayaantasthaH sa.nvinmaatraparo bhava .. 83..

marubhuumau jala.n sarvaM marubhuumaatrameva tat.h .

jagattrayamida.n sarva.n chinmaatra.n svavichaarataH .. 84..

lakshyaalakshyamati.n tyaktvaa yastishhThetkevalaatmanaa .

shiva eva svaya.n saakshaadayaM brahmaviduttamaH .. 85..

adhishhThaanamanaupamyamavaa~Nmanasagocharam.h .

nitya.n vibhu.n sarvagata.n susuukshma.n cha tadavyayam.h .. 86..

sarvashaktermaheshasya vilaaso hi mano jagat.h .

sa.nyamaasa.nyamaabhyaa.n cha sa.nsaara.n shaantimanvagaat.h .. 87..

Iv-83-87. Be devoted to Samvid, with single attention, giving up the non-spiritual attitude and unaffected by the condition of the world. In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than chit.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

The mind and the world are (only) the blooming of the supreme being; worldly life is reduced by the restraint (of the mind) and non-restraint (of the spirit).

sarva.n shaanta.n niraalamba.n vyomastha.n shaashvata.n shivam.h . anaamayamanaabhaasamanaamakamakaaraNam.h .. 45..

V-45. All is calm (needing) no support, existing in the ether (of the heart), eternal, shivam, devoid of ailment and illusion, name and cause.

shuunya.n tatprakR^itirmaayaa brahmavij~naanamityapi .

shivaH purushha iishaano nityamaatmeti kathyate .. 61..

VI-61. ‘that Brahman has been (identified with) emptiness, Prakriti, Maya and also consciousness. It is described as Shiva, purusha, ishana, the Lord, the eternal and the self".

Yajni Upanishad (Narayana Upanishad) krishna-yajurvede taittiriya-aranyake

1.21.112

purushhasya vidmahe sahasraakShasya mahaadevasya dhiimahi |

tanno rudraH prachodayaat.h ||

itaH paraM teshhu teshhu desheshhvativilakShaNaH || 113||

-------

ityaadyaagamaprasiddhamuurtidharaM maheshaM praartayate\-\-\-

tatpurushhaaya vidmahe mahaadevaaya dhiimahi |

tanno rudraH prachodayaat.h

agnyarkachandraruupaaNi jyotii.nshhiityartha iiritaH |

prashnopanishhaduktaa yaaH kalaaH shhoDasha tadyutaH || 202||

tatkalaaruupajagataa taadaatmyaatshhoDashii shivaH |

vidhartaara{\m+} havaamahe vasoH kuvidvanaati naH |

savitaara.n nR^ichakShasam.h ||

rudraH prasiddho gauriishaH sarvaH sarvaatmakaH smR^itaH || 301||

jiivaruupeNa deheshhu samasteshhu praveshataH |

mano.astu tasmai rudraaya sarvaruupaaya shaMbhave || 302||

yashchidaatmaasti purushho vinaashya prakR^itiM jaDaam.h |

sa bhaktaanugrahaayaiva rudramuurtyaavabhaasate || 303||

--------

tasmai rudraaya mahate namo.astu sakalaatmane || 307||

iishaanaH sarvavidyaanaamiishvaraH sarvabhuutaanaaM

brahmaadhipatirbrahmaNo.adhipatirbrahmaa shivo me astu sadaa shivom.h

-------

prajaapateradhipatirbrahmaakhyaH parameshvaraH || 350||

shivo mamaanugrahaaya shaanto bhavatu sarvadaa |

sadaashivoM sa evaahaM bhavaami parameshvaraH || 351||

bhajasva tattvaj~naanaaya maaM preraya maheshvara |

iti trichatvari.nsho.adhyaayaH

vaamadevaaya namo jyeshhThaaya namaH rudraaya

namaH kaalaaya namaH kalavikaraNaaya namo balavikaraNaaya namo

balapramathaaya namaH sarvabhuutadamanaaya namo

manonmanaaya namaH ||

Jabalopanishad belonging to the Sukla-Yajur-Veda

atra hi jantoH praaNeshhuutkramamaaNeshhu rudrastaarakaM brahma

vyaachashhTe yenaasaavamR^itii bhuutvaa mokshii bhavati

tasmaadavimuktameva nishheveta avimukta.n na

vimu~nchedevamevaitadyaaj~navalkyaH .. 1..

II-1. Thereafter the sage Atri (son of the creator Brahma) asked of Yajnavalkya: ‘How am I to realize the Self which is infinite and unmanifest ?’ (To this) Yajnavalkya replied: That Avimukta (Lord Siva as the redeemer) is to be worshipped; the Self which is infinite and unmanifest, is established in (i.e., is non-different from) the Avimukta (in Ishvara, possessed of attributes)’.

atha hainamatriH paprachchha yaaj~navalkya.n ya eshho.ananto.avyakta

aatmaa ta.n kathamaha.n vijaaniiyaamiti ..

sa hovaacha yaaj~navalkyaH so.avimukta upaasyo ya

eshho.ananto.avyakta aatmaa so.avimukte pratishhThita iti ..

so.avimuktaH kasminpratishhThita iti . varaNaayaa.n naashyaa.n cha

madhye pratishhThita iti ..

kaa vai varaNaa kaa cha naashiiti .

sarvaanindriyakR^itaandoshhaanvaarayatiiti tena varaNaa bhavati ..

sarvaanindriyakR^itaanpaapaannaashayatiiti tena naashii bhavatiiti ..

katama.n chaasya sthaanaM bhavatiiti . bhruvorghraaNasya cha yaH

sandhiH sa eshha dyaurlokasya parasya cha sandhirbhavatiiti . etadvai

sandhi.n sandhyaaM brahmavida upaasata iti . so.avimukta upaasya iti

. so.avimukta.n j~naanamaachashhTe . yo vaitadeva.n vedeti .. 2..

II-2. ‘Which is that (place) where Avimukta is established ?’ ‘He is established in between varana and nasi’. ‘What is (meant by) varana and what (by) nasi ?’ ‘The varana is so called as it wards off all the faults committed by the (ten) organs (of perception and action). The nasi is so named as it destroys all sins committed by the (ten) organs. (The place between the varana and the nasi is the meeting place of the upper part of the nose and the centre of the eye brows). ‘Which is the seat of that (Avimukta) ?’ ‘That, which is the (well known) juncture of the eye brows and the nose, is the juncture of heaven (in the form of the crown of the head) and this world (in the form at the end of the chin). The knowers of the Veda worship indeed this juncture (Samadhi) as Sandhya (in their daily worship). That Avimukta is to be worshipped. He who knows this thus (the true nature of the Avimukta), imparts the wisdom of the Avimukta (that the individual Self is no other than the attributeless Brahman, to his disciples).

atha hainaM brahmachaariNa uuchuH ki.n japyenaamR^itatvaM bruuhiiti ..

sa hovaacha yaaj~navalkyaH . shatarudriyeNetyetaanyeva ha vaa

amR^itasya naamaani .. etairha vaa amR^ito bhavatiiti evamevaitadyaaj~navalkyaH .. 3..

III-1. Then the discipline students (Brahmacharins of Yajnavalkya) asked him: ‘Pray, tell us, what is that mantra by reciting which one attains immortality ?’ He replied: ‘By (reciting) Satarudriya’. These mantras are indeed the names of (Rudra to achieve) immortality. By (reciting) these (mantras) one becomes immortal.

July 19, 2005

--

Lying and altering scriptures will never help.

Naaraayana Upanishad

“OM! The Supreme Being, ----- OUT OF NARAAYANA ARISES THE BRAHMA, ----and also the Indra, ----Out of Him comes Prajaapati, ----- as well as the TWELVE AADITYAAS, ELEVEN RUDRAAS AND EIGHT VASUS.

Where is Rudra here?

"nArAyanAt ekAdasha rudrO jAyate and not “nArAyanAt rudrO jAyate”.

Moreover Naaraayana Upanishad also states that Brahma, Krishna, Vishnu are all lights of Narayana.

The Vaikuntha is not (to be found) anywhere else but in a pure blessed heart, filled with knowledge (spiritual). From there rises an offshoot of light, as bright as a ray of lightning.

THAT RAY OF LIGHT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE VARIOUS FORMS OF NAARAAYANA – CALLED BY NAMES SUCH AS SON OF DEVAKI, THE ONE SWEETER THAN HONEY, THE ONE IN THE FORM OF BRAHMA, THE ONE WITH LOTUS-LIKE EYES, VISHNU. He is the form of syllable OM, the Supreme Being.

--------

the first verse of Naaraayana Upanishad says:

"nArAynAt brahmA jAyate| nArAyanAt rudrO jAyate| nArAyanAt indrO jayate| nArAyanAt prajApathaya prajAyante|"

now Vaisnavas never bend the Vedas and the Shaivas are only adept at this.

instead of proving ur arguments by giving word by word translation u keep on shouting nonsense. it is clear that u do not know Sanskrit nor the verses and that u r deriving ur arguments from shaiva literature. ur arguments r secondary data and u have nothing to offer and hence u keep on repeating ur misinterpretations inspite of being proved wrong time and again.

this nArAyana upanishad belongs to Krishna yajur veda.

Atanu,

u try to argue that Rudra is birthless but then what is ur answer to Shatapatha. the vAkyAs have ben quoted clearly and still u do not accept. Rudra is the son of Brahmadeva.

And Yajniki Upanishad (which is also called Narayana Upanishad) says this:

Purushashaya vidmahe saharxa Mahadevaye dhimahi

Tanno Rudra prachdyat (1.22)

Tatpurusaye Vidmahe mahadevaye dhimahi

Tanno Rudra Prachodyat (1.23)

----

now 'tatpurusha' in these gAyatris does not refer to Rudra and as an example see the GAyatris given below:(mAhAnArAyana Upani.)

tatpurushAya vidmahe vakrathundAya dhImahi

tanno dhanti prachodayAt|

tatpurushAya vidmahe suvarnaparnAya dhImahi

tanno garuda prachodayAt|

even Garuda and Ganesh(dhanti) have to be called 'tatpurusha' if Rudra is to be considered so.

in fact these gAyatris aim at ParamaPurusha and they consider Rudra, Ganesh, Garuda as parivara devatA who have to help the devotee in realising the ParamaPrusha.

--------

And Narayan Suktam says this:

Naarayana Sooktam:

Verse XII:

In the middle of that tongue of flame the Supreme Self abides firmly. He is Brahma, He is Siva, He is Hari (Vishnu), He is Indra, He is the Immortal, the Supreme Lord of all.

This is the famous verse:

(Sah Brahma Sah Shiva Sah Hari Sendra Sokshara Parama Swaraat)

You obviously want Sa Hari removed from this verse of Taittriya Arayanaka

(Sah Brahma Sah Shiva Sah Hari Sendra Sokshara Parama Swaraat).

I know Vaishnav literature has removed sa Hari from the above verse. But can such contradictions to Samhita stand.

Shiva is Saharshraxa and no one else.

And Rig Veda says:

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

----

I do not want to remove any word from any verse and it is u atanu who wants to remove the vakyas from shatapatha which says that Rudra was born to Brahmadeva and his wife, UshA.

as for 'sa hari' - it has already been told that avatars form a part of vibhutis and 'hari' here refers to the first avatar of Visnu by which He came to reside at kshIrasAgara (milk ocean).

(I know Vaishnav literature has removed sa Hari from the above verse. But can such contradictions to Samhita stand.)

this sentence of yours shows ur ignorance about Vedas. no Vaishnava ever removed any sentence from the Vedas.

mahAnArAyana upanishad has two recensions - Andhra pAta and dravida pAta.

while u r following the Andhra pAta, VishistAdvins like us follow the dravida pAta.

also the oldest commentator, Bhatta Bhaskara, refers to Mahanarayana Upanishad as having 64 sections which is consistent with the dravida pata alone. thus it can be said that shaivites have only added and omitted from vedas to suit their ideology and not the vaisnavAs.

dravida pAta followed by us is the oldest one. still we do not complain about ur reference to Andhra pAta. now u try to complain the vaisnavAs of editing the mantras. don't write rubbish for it seems u do not know much about vedic literature.

also u say that Shiva aone is sahasraksha but u r unable to show any proof. then 'Narayana' name refers only to Visnu and to no other deity. it has been explained many times and even Panini has been quoted but still u do not accept and it shows ur indifference and ignorance.

--------

Maruts and Rudras are interchangeably used in the following verses. And their father is Rudra. And moreover, the discussion is about ekadasha Rudras, who the Veda says are progeny of Rudra.

Who is idiotic?

HYMN LXXXVII. Maruts.

4 HE OF THE MIGHTY STRIDE FORTH STRODE, EVAYAMARUT (VISNU), ----

7 SO MAY THE RUDRAS, MIGHTY WARRIORS, EVAYAMARUT, WITH SPLENDID BRILLIANCY, LIKE FIRES, BE OUR PROTECTORS; -----

HYMN LXIV. Maruts.

2 They spring to birth, the lofty Ones, the Bulls of Heaven, divine, THE CHILDREN OF RUDRA, ---

3 YOUNG RUDRAS, demon-slayers, never growing old, they have waxed, even as mountains, irresistible. They make all beings tremble with their mighty strength, even the very strongest, both of earth and heaven.

12 THE PROGENY OF RUDRA WE INVOKE WITH PRAYER, ------

VISHNU HIMSELF IS EVAYAMARUT. I know that gives you pain. All this falsification is to avoid this truth alone: That Visnu is truly an EVAYAMARUT.

---------

now nowhere it is told that Visnu is Evayamarut and it is ur own interpretation which has no basis whatsoever.

then in the above verses Maruts and rudras are not used interchangeably, they refer to the respective categories of Devas. this once again shows ur ignorance. u just keep on giving baseless informations and translations. the book(s) which u follow is certainly a treasure of ignorance and misinterpretations. if u want to argue then give the verses and then translate. only then u can be a true vAdhi.

and as usual in HYMN LXIV. Maruts. u have quoted the 2nd and 3rd mantras and then jumped on to 12th mantra leaving many in between. there is no connection between the 3rd and 12th mantras. it is classic example of saivite cheating and u do it time and again.

-----

The translation is:

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself (sakshat), the best of the Brahman-Knowers.

---

what an exposure of ignorance! 'sAkshAt' means himself? 'svayam' means himself. 'sAkshAt' means directly / absolutely / without any doubt etc.

Atanu,

u completely omit the term 'ayam'(this).

the verse is:

"shiva eva svayam sAkshAt 'ayam brahma' vidh uttama"

the verse has been clearly explained by me before. still without even referring to the sanskrit verse u keep on repeating ur defeated arguments based on wrong translations.

July 19, 2005

*******************

RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

******************

now the soma referred to here is the soma juice and it has been explained by Ravilochanan in this very thread and u never confronted that correct translation but u keep on repeating these wrong translations and wrong inferences.

the hymn also clearly says that soma flows and these verses are sung when Soma juice is used as an offering in the yajnas. shiva is no liquid to flow.

Soma juice is praised as the one which begets the devas to the mortals by pleasing the devatas. thus it is praised as the father of the devas for it is brings the devatas to us by satisfying them.

*************************

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull;

This says all. There is ONE GOD, who is “I” of all (including Visnu). And Maha Narayana Upanishad states what is “I”.

Maha-Narayana Upanishad

Xxi-1: May the supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the vedas and the one overlord of hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the sadasiva described thus and denoted by pranava.

I AM THE SADASIVA DESCRIBED THUS

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures. -----

XXV-1: We sing a hymn ------- who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

**********************

probably Atanu knows nothing but wrong translation.

Y.V. 4.4.8-9 are verses offering salutatios to all devatas and the Supreme Brahman.

now let us turn to your gross misinterpretation and wrong translation of verses from Mahanarayana Upanishad.

Atanu is referring to the tvaritarudra mantras. these mantras refer to NArAyana and it is very clear from the verse given below.

"sarvo vai rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|

purusho vai rudrassan maho namo astu|

visvam bhUtam bhuvanam chitram bahudhA jAtham

jAyamAnanchayat|sarvo hyesha rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|"

Meaning:

"All these are verily (called) Rudra. Salutations to that Rudra. Parama Purusha is (called) Rudra. Salutations to Him again and again. all this universe, all these entities, all the wondrous worlds that were variedly born or being born - all that is verily this Rudra alone. to that Rudra, we offer our salutations."

the verse says "sarvo vai rudra", "purusho vai rudra".

thus it is the Supreme Brahman, the Parama Purusha, who is called as Rudra here. not the other way around. atanu does not know sanskrit and so let me explain so that he might understand.

when the vedas say "Rudro vai krUrah"

it means that Rudra is (called) a cruel person. thus cruel person(krUra) is a name/attribute of Rudra. but it cannot be said that every cruel person is Rudra.

similar is the case above. Rudra in the above verse is a name/attribute of 'sarva' and 'purusha'. not the other way around.

in the verse 'sarva' also refers to Parambrahman as the very next line says 'purusho vai rudra'.

now the question is who is this ParamaPurusha / Param Brahman.

the answer is given by Taittreya Aranyaka itself of which maha narayana upa. is a part.

Purusha SUkta is read in Taittreya Aranyaka and it identifies the Parama Purusha as

"hreeshcha te lakshmIscha patnyow"

meaning:

"One who has BhUmi(Hree) and Lakshmi as His wives"

it is well known that BhUmi and LakshmI are wives of Visnu. the Parama Purusha is identified as Lakshmi Pati(Visnu).

thus the Parama Prusha is Visnu.

it is Visnu who is 'Sarva'.

Subala Upanishad says:

"esha sarva bhUItantarAtmA apahatapApmA divyo deva eko nArAyanah..."

NArAyana Upanishad says:

"sarva bhUtas tam ekam NArAyanam..."

MahA nArAyana upanishad itself says:

"..........visvam nArAyanaM harim|"

"antar bahischa tat sarvam vyApya nArAyana sthitah|"

it is well known that 'Narayana' name refers only to Visnu. hence there is no chance of reinterpretation.

thus the word 'sarva' and 'purusha' refer to Visnu and hence these verses of tvarita rudra mantras refer to Visnu and not Rudra. it is Visnu who is called by the name 'Rudra' in these mantras.

infact the bhAllavEya sruti clearly says that Visnu is Sarva shabda vAchya. i have already quoted it before.

also Atanu might argue that the third mantra of this tvarita rudra says 'umApati'.

but Nrisimha TApani clearly calls Nrisimha as umApati thus establishing the fact that Visnu is sarva shabda vAchya.

Nrisimha tApani(1.12) says,

"rutaM satyam param brahma Nrikesari Vigraham krishna pingalam |

Urdhvaretam virUpAksham shankaram nIlalohitam |

umApati pashupati pinAkI hyamithadyuti |

IsAnas sarva vidyanAm Iswaras sarva bhUtanAm brahmAdhipathir brahmano(a)dhipathih |"

------

33. Lord Girisa, exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

THEY ARE CERTAINLY SHAMELESS. BHAGAVATAM SAYS IT.

------------------

this does not prove that Shiva is parambrahman and also Bhagavatam is a Purana and it is only a supporting pramana not an independent one.

only Sruti, brahmasutras, Ramayana and Mahabharata are independent pramanas.

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July 19, 2005

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Maha-Narayana Upanishad

Xxi-1: May the supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the vedas and the one overlord of hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the sadasiva described thus and denoted by pranava.

*************************

the verse says:

"IshAnas sarva vidhyAnAm Iswaras sarva bhUtAnAm

BrahmAdhipathir Brahmano(a)dhipathir brahma shivo mE astu sada shivom |"

meaning:

"the Lord of all branches of knowledge, the lord of all living beings, the Supreme master of the Vedas(brahmAdhipathir), the lord of Brahmadeva(brahmano(a)dhipathir), the one who has Brahma as His VibhUti(brahmA), the one who is ever free from defiling and ever auspicious(sadAshiva), signified by pranava(Om), may Him be the bestower of good for me(shivo mE astu)."

atanu tries to make 'Sadashiva' to mean Rudra but it is not possible as sadashiva is never used to refer to Rudra in the Sruti anywhere else. 'sadashiva' means ever auspicious and free from defiling.

'sadashiva' means 'sarvadha niravadhya'.

also Nrisimha tapani(1.12) says:

"........... IshAnas sarva vidhyAnAm Iswaras sarva bhUtAnAm BrahmAdhipathir Brahmano(a)dhipathih|"

and this forms the major part of the above verse. thus the mantra refers to Visnu and not to Rudra. also Visnu being sarva shabda vAchya this translation is absolutely correct.

now let us see some very strong vAkyAs of MahAnArAyana Upanishad:

"nArAyana param brahma| tatvam nArAyanah parah|"

meaning:

"Narayana is the Supreme Brahman. Narayana is the Supreme Reality."

"nArAyana paro jyothir| AtmA nArAyanah parah|"

meaning:

"Narayana is the Supreme Light. Narayana is the Supreme Soul."

note that 'Narayana' name refers only to Lord Visnu and it cannot be taken to mean anyone else.

also MahAnArAyana Upanishad says:

"yena(aa)vrutam kancha dhivam mahIncha yenAdityastapathi tejasA brAjasA cha|

yamantas samudre kavayo vayanti yadhakshare parame prajAh|"

meaning:

"He ,by whom the atmospheric region, the cellestial region and the terrestrial region are pervaded, by whose splendour and heat the sun illumines and whom the wise sages know as RESIDING IN THE OCEAN, is residing in the Supreme immutale abode.(i.e. He is Brahman.)"

Atanu will try to argue that Rudra resides in waters as well. but the exact word used here is 'Samudra'(ocean) and not just waters. by the way mahanarayana upanishad itself says in "namoagnaye(a)psumathe.....namo(a)dbhyah||" that Agni, Indra, Varuna, VAruni(wife of Varuna) reside in waters.

so sruti has clearly said 'Samudra' in order to refer to Visnu for residing in Samudra is a distinct feature of Visnu.

also Nrisimha tApani(1.10) says

"kshIrodhArnavashAyinam nrikEsarim....."

meaning:

"Nrisimha, who is lying upon the milk ocean,....."

thus Visnu s the one who has His home in waters and it is his distinct mark just as residing in kailasha is the distinct mark of Rudra.

by referring to this unique feature in the very beginning Mahanarayana Upanishad clearly identifies Visnu as the Supreme Brahman.

****************

Is Vishnu a brother or father of Indra? Purusha of thousand eyes gave birth to Indra (as above).

****************

this shows ur ignorance once again. Visnu in His vamana avatar was the brother of Indra. that does not mean that He is not the creator of Indra.

NArAyana Upanishad(1) says:

".......nArAyanAt indrO jAyate|"

thus Indra was born from Visnu.

also the 17th mantra of Purusha Sukta says

"DAtA purastAt yamutAjahArA

shakra pravidvAn pradhishascharasrah|"

meaning:

"the Parama Purusha was meditated upon by Brahmadeva, Indra(shakra) who is a good knower and the deities of the eight directions."

note that Rudra is the deity of the IsAna(north-east) direction. this in itself destroys the claim that Rudra is the Purusha.

also what do u mean by Purusha of Rig? Purusha SUkta is recired in all the four Vedas and the Parama Purusha is the same. there cannot be different Purushas for different vedas.

also Taittreya Aranyaka also recites Purusha Sukta and it identifies the Parama Purusha as Lakshmi Pati. so this reference is even more direct. when Purusha Sukta itself says that Parama Purusha is Visnu(Lakshmi Pati) then there is no question of Rudra being the Parama Purusha.

finally a verse from Mahabharata:

"rAjAdhirAjas sarveshAm Visnuh brahmamayi mahAn|

Iswaram tam vijAnImah sa pita sa prajApati|"

meaning:

"Visnu, the Supreme Ruler(rAjAdhirAjas), the controller of everything(sarveshAm), is Brahman(Supreme Lord) and great(mahAn). He is also known as Iswara(controller), father(pita) and PrajApati(protector/Lord of masses)."

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July 19, 2005

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tadvishhNoH paramaM ..n sadaa pashyanti suurayaH

. diviiva chakshuraatatam.h .. tadvipraaso vipanyavo jaagR^ivaa.nsaH

samindhate . vishhNoryatparamaM padam.h .. AUM satyamityupanishhat.h

IV-30. That supreme Status of Vishnu spread out, like an eye, in the sky, the enlightened ones always behold.

IV-31. The wise, ever vigilant and diligent in praise richly glorify That supreme Status of Vishnu.

IV-32. OM-Truth – This is the secret teaching.

****************

once again gross mis interpretation and wrong translation.

'param padam' now means 'Supreme Status'.

can anyone 'see'(visibly) the status of someone? if it is taken that padam refers to status then what about Kathopanishad:

".........pAramApnoti tad Visno paramam padam||"

it says that MuktAtmA attaina the Paramam padam of Visnu which is beyond this material world(pAramApnoti).

then is it that beyond the material world there is only a status no spiritual world.

if it is so then the first mantra of mahAnArAyana upanishad:

"......nAkasya prishte mahato mahIyAn|"

goes wrong for it talks about the place without sorrows where the Supreme Brahman resides.

******************

1-5.From the power of concealment controlled by God arose the Power of Projection called Mahat. What is reflected in it is the consciousness of Hiranyagarbha. He has the conceit of ownership as regards Mahat and has a body partly manifest and partly unmanifest.

I-6. From the projective power controlled by Hiranyagarbha arose the gross power called the ego, with the preponderance of Tamas. What was reflected in it was the consciousness of Virat. That Virat who has conceit in the Ego, a manifest body, and is the Chief Person, Vishnu is the protector of all gross things. From that Self (Virat) arose ether; from the ether, air; from air, fire; from fire, water; from water, earth. These five root-elements are composed of the three Gunas.

******************

Visnu is the Pradhana Purusha(absolutely correct) and there is some misinterpretation here too(in other places).

'viraat' refers to anda viraat(universe). it does not say virat purusha. Purusha sukta says

"tasmAt virAt ajAyata| virAjo adhipUrushah|"

"from the paramaPurusha AndavirAt(material universe) was born and also Viraja(Brahmadeva),the overlord of material universe(adhipUrusha) was born."

"tatpratibimbita.n" refers to the creation of bodies of living beings.

"yattadviraaTachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa tadabhimaanii spashhTavapuH"

this refers to the giving of consciousness etc. to the beings.

"sarvasthuulapaalako vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho bhavati"

clearly means that Visnu, the pradhAna Purusha, became the protector of everything.

note that the word 'jayate' meaning 'came into being' is not used for Visnu. the Parama Purusha Visnu Himself became the protector is the meaning of this verse.

"tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH" - from Himself the Sky was born.

(The apparent power of gross is actually in the subtle. )

everything is NArAyana alone. Narayana Upanishad states:

"sarvabhUtas tamekam NArAyanam|"

*************

My friends and brothers have also mentioned about Indra killing Isha. And they have also painted Isha as a Jiva. So, the Isha Upanishad (which is the number one Upanishad) has to be scrapped.

******************

what makes Atanu to think that Isha of Ishopanishad is Rudra? Visnu is the deity of tht Upanishad.

the following is a quotation from Bhaallaveya shruti. this is also accepted as a pramaana by prominent Achaaryaas and has been often quoted by them.

`nAmAni vishvA.abhi na santi loke yadAvirAsIdanR^itasya sarvam.h |

nAmAni sarvAni yamAvishanti taM vai viShNuM paramamudAharanti |'

iti bhAllaveyashrutiH |

Which says that only Vishnu is the primary referrent of all names.

thus when we say that 'Rudra','Shiva','Shambhu','Isha' etc refer to VIshnu when they r used to speak about the Supreme Lord, it is based on Sruti itself.

for the ParamaPurusha Visnu is Sarva shabda vAchya.

******************

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu,

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Prisan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

YV vi. 1. 11.

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma Indra slew Vrtra'. In that he offers an animal to Agni and Soma, it slays hostile things for him;

**********************

now once again all these verses posted are not meant for Rudra. it does not say so anywhere but Atanu takes it for granted that it means so.

"Thou art the protection of Visnu" - Agni is praised as the protection function of Visnu. he is not the protector of Visnu. note it. this does not demean Visnu's Supremacy in any manner.

"thou art the heart of Visnu, " classic example of Saivite interpretations. do not give the context in which it is spoken. even the verse has not been completed. note the comma after the sentence. this verse refers to yajna. yajna is glorified here. but Atanu does not understand.

**************

YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures. But within creatures, they do not shine, covered with five koshas of Maya. So, again:

Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10.

Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him.

******************

unending wrong translations and gross misinterpretations.

whenever the Vedas refer to Adityas it refers to 11 Adityas only because Visnu is far Superior to others and also because just as Visnu bacame the protector by His own will, He became one among the Adityas by His own Will. thus Adityas refer only to the lower devatas and not Visnu. only when it is said "dvAdasha AdityA"(12 Adityas) will it include Visnu or else it will refer only to the 11 adityas.

this has been accepted by everyone. similarly Rudras refer only to 10 rudras. only when it says 'ekAdasha Rudra' (11 Rudras) will it include Sankara who is Rudradeva.

these are accepted canons of interpretation. so don't go against them. u and me are not greater than the prominent AchAryAs be it Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhva or anyone else.

also what connection does YV vi. 5. 6. & Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10. have between them for these 2 verses are in different books. once again a classic example of saivite misinformation campaign.

going by bhAllavEya sruti, Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10. can be taken to mean Visnu. even if it refers to Rudra, Shiva being the deity of Light gives shine to Sun. it does not mean that Shiva is Supreme.

Brahman is praised as giving waters. Varuna and Indra shower rains s they are the deities of rain. but that will not make them Brahman. similar is the case of Rudra.

********************

YV iii. 1. 10.

g ---- he returns, and with a verse addressed to Visnu reverences Soma; Visnu is the sacrifice; verily he makes the sacrifice. 'O Visnu, as our nearest, O mighty one, grant us protection; the streams dripping honey milk for thee the unfailing source', he says; verily he makes to swell by it whatever of the Soma has dried up through lying (in the body).

********************

another wrong translation. who teaches u thse things atanu?

Soma here refers to Soma juice.

the verse means:

"a verse addressed to Visnu reverencing with Soma; Visnu is the sacrifice(yagna); verily he makes the sacrifice. 'O Visnu, as our nearest, O mighty one, grant us protection; the streams dripping honey milk for thee the unfailing source', he says; verily he makes to swell by it whatever of the Soma has dried up through lying".

see the words "verily he makes to swell by it whatever of the Soma has dried up through lying" - it makes it clear that Soma juice is offered in the Yajna. it says 'Soma has dried up' - will Shiva dry up - is he a liquid? don't be kidding. i feel pity upon u.

*********************

naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghana madR^ishhTamavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNa\-

machintyamachintyamavyapadeshyamaikaatmyapratyayasaaraM

prapa~nchopashama.n shiva.n shaantamadvaita.n chaturthaM

manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neya iishvaragraasasturiiyasturiiyaH

eshha sarveshvara eshha sarvaj~na eshho.antaryaamyeshha

yoniH sarvasya prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaanaa.n

naantaHpraj~na.n na bahiHpraj~na.n nobhayataHpraj~na.n

na praj~na.n naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghanamadR^ishhTa\-

mavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNamachintyamavyapadeshya\-

maikaatmyapratyayasaaraM prapa~nchopashama.n shaanta.n

shivamadvaita.n chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neyaH (This is almost a copy of Mandyuka Upanishad verse)

shivo.advaita AUMkaara aatmaiva sa

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all these refer to Nrisimha. Lord Visnu is sarva shabda vAchya. already proved above. also 1.12 of this Upanishad calls Nrisimha by the names 'sankaram','Nilalohitam', 'Umapati', 'Pasupati', 'Pinaki', 'Isana', 'Iswara' etc.

thus the vakyas cited above too refer to Visnu alone.

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tripaadvibhuutimahaanaaraayaNopanishhatsamaaptaa

naaraayaNaadakhilalokasrashhTR^iprajaapatayo

jaayante . naaraayaNaadekaatasharudraashcha jaayante

Note: naaraayaNaat ekaadasharudraashcha jaayante: 10 senses (maruts) and mind (Indra). And ekadasha Rudras are known to be sons of ONE RUDRA from RIG VEDA.

*******************

yes. but 11 rudras include Sankara(Rudradeva). Krishna says "rudrAnAm Sankarosmi" - "Among the Rudras, I am Sankara".

try to understand ,atanu.

"Kaivalyopanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda" is not pramana as no Acharya has ever quoted from it before 1650 A.D. hence such Upanishads are not pramanas. they are later concoctions. even Avyaktopanishad(a Vaisnava upa.) cannot be taken as pramana. similar is the case of some Vaisnava Upanishads like Garuda Upanishad, Dattatreya Upa., Vasudeva Upa. etc.

*********************

Maha Upanishad Sama Veda

athaato mahopanishhada.n vyaakhyaasyamastadaahureko ha vai naaraayaNa

aasiinna brahmaa neshaano naapo naagniishhomau neme dyaavaapR^ithivii na nakshatraaNi na suuryo na chandramaaH . sa ekaakii na ramate .

tasya dhyaanaantaHsthasya yaj~nastomamuchyate . tasminpurushhaashchaturdasha jaayante . ekaa kanyaa . dashendriyaaNi mana ekaadasha.n tejaH . dvaadasho.aha~NkaaraH . trayodashakaH praaNaH ------

Narayana, verily, was alone, they say; there was no Brahman, no Isana, no water, no Agni and Soma, no heaven and no earth here, no stars, no Sun, but only he, the Nara (Purusa) alone. A sacrificial hymn of praise is uttered by him, as he remains absorbed in meditation. Therein originated fourteen Purusas (men) and a girl, viz., ten indriyas (organs), the Manas (mind) as the eleventh, the Tejas (knowledge) as the twelfth, the Ahamkaara (ego) as the thirteenth, the Praana ----

Where is birth of Rudra spoken?

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why Atanu? doesn't it say

"..........trisUlapAni purusho jAyate|"

even u had argued in the past that it refers to an avatar but then u were proven wrong by referring to the Apahatapapmatva of Narayana and the lack of it in Rudra. now u deny such a vAkya and now it is very clear for the readers as to who edits the Vedas. the Shaivas are adept in doing it.

as for ur other quotations from yajni Upanishad or mahaupanishad they refer to Narayana as per the sarva shabda vAchyatva of Visnu.

once again u repeat the same mistake in the verses 4.83-87.

Shiva is clearly differentiated from Brahman by the word 'ayam'(this). u conveniently leave out the word in ur (wrong) translations.

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atra hi jantoH praaNeshhuutkramamaaNeshhu rudrastaarakaM brahma

vyaachashhTe yenaasaavamR^itii bhuutvaa mokshii bhavati

tasmaadavimuktameva nishheveta avimukta.n na

vimu~nchedevamevaitadyaaj~navalkyaH .. 1..

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so u quote from Jabalyopanishad. now see:

"atra hi jantoH praaNeshhuutkramamaaNeshhu 'rudrastaarakaM brahma'...."

'Rudras taarakam brahma' - Rudra offers MOksha by using Brahma Taaraka.

what is the Brahma Taaraka?

the answer is found in Rama Rahasyopanishad of atharva Veda:

1.6 - "etheshu chaiva sarveshu tattvam cha brahma taarakam|

raama eva param brahma rAma eva param tapah|

rAma eva param tattvam Sri rAmo brahma TAraka|"

note the last line:

"Sri Ramo brahma taarakam"

yes the name 'Sri Rama' is the brahma taaraka mantra.

it is with this mantra does Rudra give Moksha.

Jabalyopanishad asks to recite Sata Rudriya and by doing so u please udra who will give u moksha with 'Sri Rama' mantra which is the Brahma TAraka.

so the ultimate power of giving Moksha is vested with Visnu on reciting whose name is Rudra able to give Moksha.

Let Atanu understand that Visnu is the Supreme Brahman.

"nArAyana Param Brahmah|"

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July 19, 2005

vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho ---- tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH

******Let Atanu understand that Visnu is the Supreme Brahman.***********

I do not need to understand anything. The intellect does not reach him. You be lost in the labyrinth of assumed pandit ship. I know what Brahman is. Pure consciousness (without sense of I) -- the Sadasivam of the fourth state is That. All are derived from That.

Kaivalya

18 trishhu dhaamasu yadbhogyaM bhoktaa bhogashcha yadbhavet.h .tebhyo vilakshaNaH saakshii chinmaatro.ahaM sadaashivaH .. 18..

18. What constitute the enjoyable, the enjoyer, and the enjoyment, in the three abodes – different from them all am I, the Witness, the Pure Consciousness, the Eternal Sada Sivam.

Paingala

yattadviraaTachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa tadabhimaanii spashhTavapuH

sarvasthuulapaalako vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho bhavati .

tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH .

vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho ---- tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH.

And yes, Ganapati is Tatpurusha, since he is Rudra (clear from Rudram). And

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

And there is no doubt of the heart of Vishnu:

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu,

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Prisan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

Srinivasa you may wish to debase your atma and Vishnu’s atma, but I am clear.

Shiva is Vishnu's atma and Vishnu is Shiva’s atma. The Atma is the heart of Visvarupa and in Atma the Visvarupa is the heart. But this is just for instruction and understanding. It is ONE LORD.

vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho ---- tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH

Isavasyopanishad, as contained in the Sukla-Yajur-Veda

sambhuutiM cha vinaashaM cha yastadvedobhaya{\m+} saha .

vinaashena mR^ityuM tiirtvaa sambhuutyaa.amR^itamashnute .. 14..

July 19, 2005

Pandit Srinivasa will give his own color of hatred to this simple verse.

Mahanarayana Up

pa~nchasaptatitamo.anuvaakaH .

namo rudraaya vishhNave mR^ityurme paahi .. 1..

And it is not only Tat Purusha but :

Mahanarayana Up

purushhasya vidmahe sahasraakshasya mahaadevasya dhiimahi . tanno rudraH prachodayaat.h .. 22..

There is nothing higher than Purusha of Rig Veda Samhita. Personal preference do not count.

RV Book 10 HYMN XC. Purusa.

1. A THOUSAND heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet. On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.

2 This Purusa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be; The Lord of Immortality which waxes greater still by food.

3 So mighty is his greatness; yea, greater than this is Purusa. All creatures are one-fourth of him, three-fourths eternal life in heaven.

This is repeated in Mahanarayana Upanishad.

Mahanarayana Up

chaturvi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

sarvo vai rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu . purushho vai rudraH

sanmaho namo namaH .

vishvaM bhuutaM bhuvana.n chitraM bahudhaa jaata.n jaayamaana.n cha

yat.h . sarvo hyeshha rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu .. 1..

pa~nchavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

kadrudraaya prachetase miiDhushhTamaaya tavyase . vochema

sha.ntama{\m+} hR^ide . sarvohyeshha rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu .. 1..

pa~nchasaptatitamo.anuvaakaH .

namo rudraaya vishhNave mR^ityurme paahi .. 1..

vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho ---- tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH.

July 19, 2005

Pandit will say eko is not Rudra but Naraayana. Naive that he is, he cannot see that eko means one alone. If it is Narayana then Narayana is also Eko.

There cannot be two Eko. There is ONE EKO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE.

Shvetaashvataropanishhat

tR^itiiyo.adhyaayaH .

ya eko jaalavaaniishata iishaniibhiH

sarvaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

ya evaika udbhave sambhave cha

ya etad.h viduramR^itaaste bhavanti .. 1..

eko hi rudro na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\-

rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

pratyaN^ janaastishhThati saJNchukochaantakaale

sa.nsR^ijya vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH .. 2..

July 19, 2005

What to say of this Pandit. Even Gods hate Rudra on account of delusion.

YV ii. 6. 8.

The gods excluded Rudra from the sacrifice; he pierced the sacrifice, the gods gathered round it (saying), 'May it be right for us.' They said, 'Well offered will this be for us, if we propitiate him.'

Bhagavatam

31. O Lord Girisa, since you are transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

Shri Rudram 1.9

namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe |

atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 9)

my salutations be to the blue-throated, He who has a thousand eyes and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas.

----------------------

Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan

ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo

Isha, Para, Bhagavo

O Bhagavan (God)! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

Truly God alone can tear away the veil. Else when the scripture says:

eko hi rudro na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\-

rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

The Pandit says, "this eko is not eko" And he ignores: "na dvitiiyaaya tasthu"

[moderator note: edited to keep page from going off screen]

July 19, 2005

eko hi rudro na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\-

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa

Namo Rudraya Vishnave

Pandits can only take recourse to their imaginations and slippery arguments.

July 19, 2005

Book 5 HYMN LXXXVII. Maruts.

1. To Visnu, to the Mighty whom the Maruts follow let your hymns born in song go forth, Evayamarut;

------

evayā

○yā́ mfn. going quickly (said of Vishṇu) RV. i, 156, 1

July 19, 2005

******Atanu's arguments are wrong translations ******

There is no need to translate dear friend

Paigala

vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho ---- tasmaadaatmana aakaashaH sambhuutaH

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Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

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